This person is applying to college.

[Chino]

College is an investment, you get what out what you put in.

I can't agree with this fully.

When I was still working in the kitchen, I worked with a girl who managed to go $210K in dept to an art school for a major in ceramics. Now, don't get me wrong, her ceramics were probably some of the best I'd ever seen and she obviously dedicated all she had into the craft... but it's still just a degree in ceramics. Maybe she'll prove me wrong some day, and for her sake I hope she does, but three years later she's still in that kitchen making less than $11 an hour.

[cramx3]

Thats an insane amount of debt, sounds like she didnt manage her money well.  I would put her problem on poor decisions.

[Chino]

Thats an insane amount of debt, sounds like she didnt manage her money well.  I would put her problem on poor decisions.

100% agree. I'm just pointing out that you can put all you possibly can into your investment and even then there's no guarantee it will be a good one.

[CDrice]

College is an investment, you get what out what you put in.

This.  I like to think the best investment you can make is an investment in yourself since you can control that, hence why I generally believe college is a good thing if you are going to put the effort into not only getting a degree, but using that degree in your career.

The thing is, are kids ready at 17 years old to make such a decision? I know I wasn't. There is a certain pressure to go to college because that's what you're supposed to do to get a job. But if you have no idea what to do, well you're just going to end up wasting your time and money. It took me four years to finally find something I felt strongly about (graphic design and illustration). And it's not something I would have thought at the end of highschool, because at that point I had lost most of the interest I used to have in visual arts. I guess you could say I went full circle (nugget!!!)

My point is, while it's true that it's an investment, we're not necessarely ready to make that decision right out of highschool. Hence the reason why you end up with people having an insane amount of debt.

[orcus116]

At 17 you may be young but you're not a child. I can only use my own experience to comment but the whole "I got tricked!" mindset really drives me up a wall. For every one person who made a bad decision to get into liberal or creative arts there are most likely a greater number of people that actual went through college and are handling their debts just fine.

[Chino]

At 17 you may be young but you're not a child. I can only use my own experience to comment but the whole "I got tricked!" mindset really drives me up a wall. For every one person who made a bad decision to get into liberal or creative arts there are most likely a greater number of people that actual went through college and are handling their debts just fine.

At 17, you are nowhere near a mature adult. I truly didn't 100% realize the value of money until I was about 24. Out of everyone I know who's graduated with and since me, more are struggling with their debt than aren't.

[cramx3]

At 17 you may be young but you're not a child. I can only use my own experience to comment but the whole "I got tricked!" mindset really drives me up a wall. For every one person who made a bad decision to get into liberal or creative arts there are most likely a greater number of people that actual went through college and are handling their debts just fine.

At 17, you are nowhere near a mature adult. I truly didn't 100% realize the value of money until I was about 24. Out of everyone I know who's graduated with and since me, more are struggling with their debt than aren't.

While that is true for me as well, it wasn't until I graduated college that I realized the true value of a dollar, just because you aren't sure of your life at 17 like many people, doesn't mean you should drop 100k to go to school.  People need to be smarter and if you don't know, then you take your time to figure it out, get a job and see what life is like and then go back to school if you think that is the answer for you.  Sadly, parents and social pressure probably don't make that so simple, but people should be supportive of your life choices assuming they aren't bad for you (and there is nothing wrong with going into the work force instead of college at 17 if you don't know what you want to do).

[Lucien]

If you think Wall Street is going to a) stand idly by as Bernie takes over a 100 BILLION dollars from them, and/or b) is going to absorb that cost and not pass it to investors, you really aren't putting in the due diligence on this.

yeah, they'll probably just get him assassinated. they've got the money

[CDrice]

At 17 you may be young but you're not a child. I can only use my own experience to comment but the whole "I got tricked!" mindset really drives me up a wall. For every one person who made a bad decision to get into liberal or creative arts there are most likely a greater number of people that actual went through college and are handling their debts just fine.

My point was not so much about being tricked, but more about that they are so many potential career choices that it can be overwhelming if you are not prepared.

[Stadler]

Thats an insane amount of debt, sounds like she didnt manage her money well.  I would put her problem on poor decisions.

100% agree. I'm just pointing out that you can put all you possibly can into your investment and even then there's no guarantee it will be a good one.

But again, that's putting the cart before the horse, then blaming the horse.   That's not an "investment", that's a "long shot bet".   What ceramicist do you know is making that kind of coin???  I don't even know what a degree in "ceramics" gets you?   I also don't think I paid $210K for any TWO of my degrees.   

I don't doubt you one bit, Chino, but that example is an indictment of her, not of college academics in general. 

[Stadler]

At 17 you may be young but you're not a child. I can only use my own experience to comment but the whole "I got tricked!" mindset really drives me up a wall. For every one person who made a bad decision to get into liberal or creative arts there are most likely a greater number of people that actual went through college and are handling their debts just fine.

How come 30 years ago, 17 year olds WERE able to make this decision?   Or at least a good number of them.  I'm starting to repeat myself, but this is less about the "sham" nature of college academics than it is the state of our children, and the preparatory education they are getting on the way to college.   We think 17 year olds (well, 18) are smart enough to drive, to vote, to get married, to have kids, but they all of a sudden can't decide what interests them?    Please.

[Stadler]

At 17 you may be young but you're not a child. I can only use my own experience to comment but the whole "I got tricked!" mindset really drives me up a wall. For every one person who made a bad decision to get into liberal or creative arts there are most likely a greater number of people that actual went through college and are handling their debts just fine.

My point was not so much about being tricked, but more about that they are so many potential career choices that it can be overwhelming if you are not prepared.

But (and I could reply to about four posts in this thread) that is in part what college prepares you for.   It is naïve to think you all of a sudden hit 22 and every decision is right there for you, clear as a bell.    Life doesn't work that way.   The first two years of college are almost all the same regardless of your major.   Take two years, put in the effort (god forbid if you work hard at something that doesn't stoke your fires) and you aren't 17 any more, you are 20 or 21.   Different ballgame.   You have the experience of a multicultered environment, you have the guidance of a faculty who's best interest is getting you hired, and you have the resources of a school who's best interests are getting you hired.   

And no, I'm not talking about any Ivory Tower Ivy League school.  All this happened to me in a state school, which, at the time wasn't even a good one (though now it is considered a "public Ivy").   My parents didn't go to college, so they were of zero help in all this. I had to figure it out.  I don't understand for the life of me, with the 'publicity' about college debt, why this is an issue.  How is this someone else's fault that someone won't accept the consequences of their decision? 

[Lucien]

People might be good at all around studies which help them in life, but what if they can't find what really sparks their interest? Common core doesn't really help you find what you want to do, it just spoonfeeds you the skills to do basic things, i.e. teaching you how to think.

For the ceramicist, Stadler, what if that person wasn't interested in any other study? Should she have just quit before she was in too deep to change to a higher paying career?

Why doesn't everyone just become an engineer or doctor? Well, because some people (like me) think that high-paying math/science careers such as those engineering and medical majors are boring/annoying as shit and would rather spend their college time learning how to teach groups of kids how to play musical instruments instead. You know, fun things to do, that we might actually have an interest in/pre-college skill.

[Lucien]

The first two years of college are almost all the same regardless of your major.

 

[Stadler]

And by the way, I don't mean it to sound quite as "old man" as it does; I get that there will always be those for which this path doesn't work.   I think I am objecting most to the abdication of responsibility than anything else.   The very things that get many people through college in spite of their potential indecision is exactly why employers are willing to pay anywhere from 40% to 60% more for someone with a college degree than someone without.   

[Chino]

The first two years of college are almost all the same regardless of your major.

 

Whether you go to Uconn or NVCC, your first three or four semesters will be the same generic prereq bullshit regardless of what university you're going to attend. Algebra is algebra. Why give Uconn $15k to take it when NVCC will give you the same thing for $1400?

[Stadler]

People might be good at all around studies which help them in life, but what if they can't find what really sparks their interest? Common core doesn't really help you find what you want to do, it just spoonfeeds you the skills to do basic things, i.e. teaching you how to think.

For the ceramicist, Stadler, what if that person wasn't interested in any other study? Should she have just quit before she was in too deep to change to a higher paying career?

Why doesn't everyone just become an engineer or doctor? Well, because some people (like me) think that high-paying math/science careers such as those engineering and medical majors are boring/annoying as shit and would rather spend their college time learning how to teach groups of kids how to play musical instruments instead. You know, fun things to do, that we might actually have an interest in/pre-college skill.

I think you are misunderstanding me.  If you don't want to be an engineer or doctor, don't.  No one is forcing you.  But lamenting why the ceramicist isn't making $120K a year?  Please.  Just because a vocation interests YOU doesn't mean that anyone else should pay you for it.   And if a vocation doesn't interest you, you have a choice:  do something that does, but accept the consequences of that (i.e. potential low salary, no jobs, debt) or do something that doesn't interest you for a living, but accept the consequences of that (i.e. you may have to use some of your free time to pursue the interests that hold your attention).   Either way, the answer is "ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES".  No one is forcing you to do anything you don't want to do.    But I will add, life is all about weathering through those things "you don't want to do".   

[Stadler]

The first two years of college are almost all the same regardless of your major.

 

Whether you go to Uconn or NVCC, your first three or four semesters will be the same generic prereq bullshit regardless of what university you're going to attend. Algebra is algebra. Why give Uconn $15k to take it when NVCC will give you the same thing for $1400?

As long as the credits transfer, Chino is right. 

But think about that:  UConn is $60K all in, assuming you can't come up with one dime of your own money to pay for it.  Assuming you get no grant or scholarship money, you come out with a degree that matters and means something (there are UConn alum all over the country, no, the world, to network with) and you are at about 30% of the debt of that ceramics major. 

[Chino]

People might be good at all around studies which help them in life, but what if they can't find what really sparks their interest? Common core doesn't really help you find what you want to do, it just spoonfeeds you the skills to do basic things, i.e. teaching you how to think.

For the ceramicist, Stadler, what if that person wasn't interested in any other study? Should she have just quit before she was in too deep to change to a higher paying career?

Why doesn't everyone just become an engineer or doctor? Well, because some people (like me) think that high-paying math/science careers such as those engineering and medical majors are boring/annoying as shit and would rather spend their college time learning how to teach groups of kids how to play musical instruments instead. You know, fun things to do, that we might actually have an interest in/pre-college skill.

I think you are misunderstanding me.  If you don't want to be an engineer or doctor, don't.  No one is forcing you.  But lamenting why the ceramicist isn't making $120K a year?

I'd just like to point out that I am in no way defending her. I think she's a fucking idiot for doing that. I think $210K on education is insane regardless what field you're going into. I wrote that in response to the "your investment is what you put into it" comment. My point being that she dedicated her entire life to that investment and I can say with 99.9% certainty that it's not going to pay off.

[Chino]

The first two years of college are almost all the same regardless of your major.

 

Whether you go to Uconn or NVCC, your first three or four semesters will be the same generic prereq bullshit regardless of what university you're going to attend. Algebra is algebra. Why give Uconn $15k to take it when NVCC will give you the same thing for $1400?

As long as the credits transfer, Chino is right.

That's a good point. Some stuff doesn't transfer. In my experience, it was the technical specific electives (Intro to COBOL, etc..) that would always give you headaches in credit transfers. The basics like languages, maths, history, and writing never gave me or anyone else I know an issue.

[Lucien]

Oh, you guys are talking about community college 

See, I was dumb and jumped straight into my state college, and started with only a single class that wasn't music-related (that decision was made for me and all the other music majors). Not including a $5500/year FAFSA loan, I get $9000 every year through scholarships I don't know if I'd have gotten if I had transferred from a community college.

[Stadler]

People might be good at all around studies which help them in life, but what if they can't find what really sparks their interest? Common core doesn't really help you find what you want to do, it just spoonfeeds you the skills to do basic things, i.e. teaching you how to think.

For the ceramicist, Stadler, what if that person wasn't interested in any other study? Should she have just quit before she was in too deep to change to a higher paying career?

Why doesn't everyone just become an engineer or doctor? Well, because some people (like me) think that high-paying math/science careers such as those engineering and medical majors are boring/annoying as shit and would rather spend their college time learning how to teach groups of kids how to play musical instruments instead. You know, fun things to do, that we might actually have an interest in/pre-college skill.

I think you are misunderstanding me.  If you don't want to be an engineer or doctor, don't.  No one is forcing you.  But lamenting why the ceramicist isn't making $120K a year?

I'd just like to point out that I am in no way defending her. I think she's a fucking idiot for doing that. I think $210K on education is insane regardless what field you're going into. I wrote that in response to the "your investment is what you put into it" comment. My point being that she dedicated her entire life to that investment and I can say with 99.9% certainty that it's not going to pay off.

You don't have to answer, but what school did she attend that she has $210K in loans?   That's YALE territory, there, and if she's working an $11 job with a degree from Yale (I don't care if it is "ceramics") she IS an idiot.    Jeez.   

[Chino]

People might be good at all around studies which help them in life, but what if they can't find what really sparks their interest? Common core doesn't really help you find what you want to do, it just spoonfeeds you the skills to do basic things, i.e. teaching you how to think.

For the ceramicist, Stadler, what if that person wasn't interested in any other study? Should she have just quit before she was in too deep to change to a higher paying career?

Why doesn't everyone just become an engineer or doctor? Well, because some people (like me) think that high-paying math/science careers such as those engineering and medical majors are boring/annoying as shit and would rather spend their college time learning how to teach groups of kids how to play musical instruments instead. You know, fun things to do, that we might actually have an interest in/pre-college skill.

I think you are misunderstanding me.  If you don't want to be an engineer or doctor, don't.  No one is forcing you.  But lamenting why the ceramicist isn't making $120K a year?

I'd just like to point out that I am in no way defending her. I think she's a fucking idiot for doing that. I think $210K on education is insane regardless what field you're going into. I wrote that in response to the "your investment is what you put into it" comment. My point being that she dedicated her entire life to that investment and I can say with 99.9% certainty that it's not going to pay off.

You don't have to answer, but what school did she attend that she has $210K in loans?   That's YALE territory, there, and if she's working an $11 job with a degree from Yale (I don't care if it is "ceramics") she IS an idiot.    Jeez.

I honestly don't remember. Me thinks she was an out of state resident (at the time) attending the University of Hartford for art.

Just did a quick Google, and for a CT resident attending that university, it would cost $48,098 for tuition, fees, and room and board.

That seems so reversed to me. Nearly $50k per year for a craft? You can get a degree in Management Information Systems and Civil Engineering for that, and those will actually provide a return on your investment. I feel like (I might get hammered for saying this), most forms of art don't require schooling. I'm convinced that if you spent eight hours a day for four years practicing photography, you'd be way better at that craft than after four years at a university studying it. I feel like you you'd be much better off taking some business courses while mastering your craft in your own time. I'm not saying just pick up a camera and shoot until your pictures look awesome, but rather use the internet and technology to self educate yourself. There are more Youtube tutorials and how-tos online than we know what to do with. I feel like many art forms can be taught through those services.

[CDrice]

You don't have to answer, but what school did she attend that she has $210K in loans?   That's YALE territory, there, and if she's working an $11 job with a degree from Yale (I don't care if it is "ceramics") she IS an idiot.    Jeez.   

I don't know for ceramists specifically, but for a reason that completely eludes me, art school can get really expensive while the salaries are not necessarely high (some can make pretty comfortable salaries, but nothing insane). Also a lot of places are going to teach the craft, but they don't really get you ready at being a professional artist in the real world.

On the flip side, I think it's easier than ever now to research for a good art school that is actually going to prepare you, or if you have a small amount of self discipline, you can even self-educate yourself for a fraction of the price. Here's an article on the subject: https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/dont-go-to-art-school-138c5efd45e9

[CDrice]

I feel like (I might get hammered for saying this), most forms of art don't require schooling. I'm convinced that if you spent eight hours a day for four years practicing photography, you'd be way better at that craft than after four years at a university studying it. I feel like you you'd be much better off taking some business courses while mastering your craft in your own time. I'm not saying just pick up a camera and shoot until your pictures look awesome, but rather use the internet and technology to self educate yourself. There are more Youtube tutorials and how-tos online than we know what to do with. I feel like many art forms can be taught through those services.

Being an artist, I'm very offended that you think most form of art doesn't require schooling... 

Seriously, this is pretty much what the article I've linked in my previous post talked about. Some people will need the school environment to actually learn and get better, but when you talk to illustrators, concept artists for video games and I'm guessing photography would be the same, they'll tell you that what counts is the portfolio and that generally employers won't care about your degree if your work is on the level they want (and that you're not socially akward)

And, while I think my school was pretty good, I can certified that I've learned an incredible amount of things that I hadn't learned in school through youtube videos, tutorials, books (remember those things?) and online articles.

[cramx3]

I get what Chino is saying, I'm not an artist so I would think a lot of schooling would be self taught and practice, but I imagine it is also good to learn techniques/styles and history of the art you are studying besides just practicing the physical aspect of creating the art.  However, I cannot see the value is spending more than 20k a year on that type of schooling and Im thinking the number of 20k might be high too.

[Stadler]

I get what Chino is saying, I'm not an artist so I would think a lot of schooling would be self taught and practice, but I imagine it is also good to learn techniques/styles and history of the art you are studying besides just practicing the physical aspect of creating the art.  However, I cannot see the value is spending more than 20k a year on that type of schooling and Im thinking the number of 20k might be high too.

Well, that's where I come in.  I don't doubt the benefit of schooling for art, even if it sounds counter-intuitive, because I am a HUGE advocate of surrounding yourself with talent.  There is a reason there are an incredibly disproportionately high number of excellent rock guitarists from England; when you grow up playing in basements with Dave Murray and Adrian Smith (childhood friends) you can't help but be better than you were before.   I know I learned more in the two years I Mummed (look it up) than in all the years before that, simply because I was ALWAYS around someone who knew the music I was playing and my instrument better than me (even if it wasn't their instrument).   

So to pay $20k or even $50k to get that exposure is a decision that the individual has to make.  But that you paid "$x" for that education doesn't have any bearing on whether you can earn "$y" for it, and at the end of the day, you HAVE to take responsibility for your decision.  No one signed your schedule for you, and no one moved your shit into your dorm for you (well, maybe, but you know what I mean).  Own your situation. 

[Chino]

There's a reason John Petrucci and John Myung dropped out of Berkley


Just playing. I'm not implying that the arts shouldn't have schools. I just don't think every branch of art requires an education to be a master of your craft.

[hefdaddy42]

There's a reason John Petrucci and John Myung dropped out of Berkley


Just playing. I'm not implying that the arts shouldn't have schools. I just don't think every branch of art requires an education to be a master of your craft.

Well, in the arts, a little education can go a long way.

[OnTheBacksofAngela]

College seemed so far. I'm only 13...it's not wrong to start having college plans, right? I should not be worrying, but...?
People say, "OH college? Still 5 years ahead of you. Forget about it!" But Im nervous if I don't start taking college seriously now, I never will.

[Chino]

College seemed so far. I'm only 13...it's not wrong to start having college plans, right? I should not be worrying, but...?
People say, "OH college? Still 5 years ahead of you. Forget about it!" But Im nervous if I don't start taking college seriously now, I never will.

It's not all that it's cracked up to be and I truly believe that your school choice is not as crucial as most people believe. Most people I graduated with two years ago are already on their second job and on a career path that's already deviating from what we majored in.

It's great you're think about it now, but you've got plenty of time. Definitely look into a low cost community college for your first two years. No need to spend all kinds of money on a big university that early. Your basic prerequisite classes will be the same regardless what school you attend. 

[cramx3]

I think 13 is too young to "worry" about college, its fine to think about, but really no point in getting worried.  Keep yourself focused on the things you control like your grades and extracurricular activities and the college will come a bit more naturally as you learn about yourself and what you like/dislike and also what you are good at.

While I get Chino's view of saving some dough by going to a community college, but there is something to be said about being on your own in a big school and figuring things out yourself, not just school work, but figuring out how to make friends, how to manage your time, experience different cultures, learn about yourself, and plenty of other things that you experience by being on your own in college.

[OnTheBacksofAngela]

That is all true, but even now my brothers are being pressured to go to Harvard and Yale. Basically, my parents have our future set up, but Im not smart enough to go to those those options schools. I worry because I've been told that college describes your "fate." They say that tuition is rising and there are more people that want to go  college. Also my brothers say that ap's/sat/and act with make my life miserable so I should start worrying about my future. So many things are going around me and it just overwhelms me.

[cramx3]

That is all true, but even now my brothers are being pressured to go to Harvard and Yale. Basically, my parents have our future set up, but Im not smart enough to go to those those options schools. I worry because I've been told that college describes your "fate." They say that tuition is rising and there are more people that want to go  college. Also my brothers say that ap's/sat/and act with make my life miserable so I should start worrying about my future. So many things are going around me and it just overwhelms me.

Only you can make your fate.  If you can't get into an Ivy league school, that is perfectly fine.  But you have to make the best of what you have in front of you. 

My parents were pretty tough on me when it came to college.  They forced SAT prep down my throat also forced me to do extracurricular activities I was not interested in. At the end of the day, it is what you make of it.  Not everyone is set to be an Ivy leaguer.  That is totally fine, make the most out of whatever school you can get into if further education is your goal.

[Stadler]

But above all, there are no rules here.

You're all right to some degree, and you're not to others.   Chino is right for 95% of the population, in that your choice doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but the reality is, when your college roommate goes on to be a Senator, or CEO, as it often does in the Ivy League (or elite) schools, it matters.  It just does.    But that's the elite tier.  At the next level, not so much, but it still does.   We joke about saying "I got a guy..." but having gone to UConn, I DO have a guy.  I have a network of people I can call on, by no other virtue than we have a piece of paper with the same logo on it.  Sounds like nonsense, but it isn't when you're talking about serious issues like finding a job.  People talk about how the "rich" have the advantage; it's not the rich.  It is the networked.

Now, granted, you have to be remembered for more than being "that guy" that buried the four-beer funnel while puffing a joint out of his butt crack, but still.

College doesn't describe your fate, but what you DO at college does.  But, kiddo, that's life.  After you get out of high school, EVERYTHING you do "describes your fate" in one form or another.     You can't bounce through life from incident to incident hoping there is a reset every single time, because it doesn't work that way.