5 years later, was Portnoy right?

[Setlist Scotty]

Even MP himself knew that a change needed to happen and he figured a hiatus was the best way to make it happen, not just for him but for the rest of the band - as I said in my last post, it seems MP thought that the relationships between the other guys had become hum-drum as well. But as MP also acknowledged, his leaving the band forced the change that he felt was needed.

Now here's the thing - had MP continued in the band (since you feel he was in the wrong for thinking that a hiatus was the only solution and leaving when the rest of the guys didn't agree), would the band have found that change and refreshing that was needed? While it's all speculation, probably not - if it would've been up to the other guys, it would've been business as usual since they didn't see any problems with how things were going.

[emtee]

Scotty is much closer to the band than I will ever be but my take on the events was that MP was struggling for a long time with
his relationships with JLB and possibly Myung. And it got worse and worse and like all of us there comes a day of clarity and it
can come out of the blue. At some point he realized that it wasn't possible to pretend any longer. Pretend that they were all buds.
They weren't. He was diggin' the vibes and new relationships with A7X and remembering how it 'used to be' when all the guys
in DT were buds and hung out together and laughed and ate together and one day he woke up and *BAM*...that was it.
No more pretending. As hard as it was, it was time to stop pretending and move on.

[MirrorMask]

Scotty is much closer to the band than I will ever be but my take on the events was that MP was struggling for a long time with
his relationships with JLB and possibly Myung.

I still wonder what went south with James and when. We all know the band gave him an ultimatum after Six Degrees, he shaped up, got better, and I still vividly remember around the Octavarium era a very strong post from Portnoy defending LaBrie on his board.

Basically there was one of those hypothetical "What if" threads speculating about possible singers in DT other than James, and Mike made a long post from which I still remember the line "Since [whatever tour it was, possibly Train of Thought's] I had nothing but words of praise for James" stating how his voice was unique, was fitting to the band, and how no other singers could have done the things he was doing in DT, ending, again I paraphrase from memory, with something like "X and Y cannot do those things in Dream Theater. James can. That's why *he is* the singer of Dream Theater" (I still remember the emphasis on *he is* written that way), and then he closed the thread I believe. Like saying, "He's our singer, he's the best for the job, he's here to stay, deal with it".

And then a couple of years later the split happens, and it becomes clear how much they didn't get along... it would be a pity if the relationship got better around the ToT / Octavarium era and then soured again beyond repair.

[BlacklistJones]

Purely speculation, but putting differences "aside" doesn't necessarily mean that they disappear indefinitely. Obviously with there being some distaste between the two of them, they managed to squash it under the doormat in order to keep things concise and solidified - a "show must go on" attitude, if you will. I have no idea what exactly happened - never will either - but perhaps tensions flared up again when Portnoy felt like it was time for them to take that break? Perhaps that was the moment where Labrie essentially stood up and let out a lot of what he was holding in.

This could all be completely opposite and upside down in comparison to the reality of it all. At the same time however, our reality - looking outside of the box - are essentially assumptions within the gaps that haven't been filled by the bandmates, of course.

[King Postwhore]

Maybe Portnoy should have cut down the side projects so he could feel refreshed with the band he had most invested with.

Perhaps, but I don't think so. The man is a workaholic. Recently he posted on Facebook a comment about how he loved being out on the road (but loved the photo his wife sent him of one of his dogs), and there's been other posts he's made in the past where he gets bored when he's at home for too long a time.

I *think* the biggest thing was that besides not feeling the strong bond of friendship not only between him and the other guys, but amongst the other 4 guys themselves, that he was confined by having to commit so much time to DT. When your stuck doing the same thing for a long period of time, after a while it can get pretty old, and while I don't think he's ever felt that way about making music (studio or live), it seems that it finally got to that point for him with DT. So I doubt cutting back on the side projects would've helped the situation.

However, the one thing that I wish he would've done was express his feelings to the rest of the band much earlier, around the time that he started getting those nagging feels (which I think went as far back as the ProgNation tour in Europe). Had he done that, maybe he and the rest of the band could've avoided what ended up happening. Maybe not. But I think it would've been a wiser choice than unexpectedly springing it on the rest of the guys when they're getting ready to talk about their plans for their next album.

I understand and as a fan, I loved MP for everything he did with DT and all the side projects I loved.  I think asking for a 5 year stop was too much. Take a year or 2 off. 

The relationship thing is also 2 sided.  At some point you know some band members are the leaders and the followers and it is just that.  In the end I still love DT and most of MP's output so it's a win/win for me.

[goo-goo]

Scotty is much closer to the band than I will ever be but my take on the events was that MP was struggling for a long time with
his relationships with JLB and possibly Myung.

I still wonder what went south with James and when. We all know the band gave him an ultimatum after Six Degrees, he shaped up, got better, and I still vividly remember around the Octavarium era a very strong post from Portnoy defending LaBrie on his board.

I think one of the main issues, IIRC, was that MP was very open in several interviews on how he would have liked a different singer in this modern era. He clarified that James was the voice of DT, buthe pretty much repeated this every time he was asked this question. He was too sincere in my opinion in the interviews regarding James and his voice. It probably rubbed James the wrong way and I don't blame him.

In a marriage analogies .............. 
"Yeah, I married your mom, but my other GF was hotter" 

[emtee]

Scotty is much closer to the band than I will ever be but my take on the events was that MP was struggling for a long time with
his relationships with JLB and possibly Myung.

I still wonder what went south with James and when. We all know the band gave him an ultimatum after Six Degrees, he shaped up, got better, and I still vividly remember around the Octavarium era a very strong post from Portnoy defending LaBrie on his board.

Basically there was one of those hypothetical "What if" threads speculating about possible singers in DT other than James, and Mike made a long post from which I still remember the line "Since [whatever tour it was, possibly Train of Thought's] I had nothing but words of praise for James" stating how his voice was unique, was fitting to the band, and how no other singers could have done the things he was doing in DT, ending, again I paraphrase from memory, with something like "X and Y cannot do those things in Dream Theater. James can. That's why *he is* the singer of Dream Theater" (I still remember the emphasis on *he is* written that way), and then he closed the thread I believe. Like saying, "He's our singer, he's the best for the job, he's here to stay, deal with it".

And then a couple of years later the split happens, and it becomes clear how much they didn't get along... it would be a pity if the relationship got better around the ToT / Octavarium era and then soured again beyond repair.

My take when it really hit the fan is when MP commented in an interview that he wouldn't choose JLB as the singer for a modern DT.
That is not a direct quote but it was close. There was a thread on his site at the time and I specifically remember saying this
was not a good omen and that you don't call out your bandmates publicly. There were several people there who said I was
making way too big a deal of it (and I think possibly even a mod) but I knew it WAS a big deal. Things had probably been falling
apart for quite some time but when MP said that...I knew things were not right. Then (pure speculation on my part and not
knowing DT's schedule or JLB's schedule) they sent in Raw Dog (with no JLB) when every other band used their full band
that made me think even more that something was not right. Again...maybe JLB was not available but submitting a song
that does not include vocals sent an odd vibe for me.

[TAC]

I never thought submitting an instrumental at that point was a big deal TBH.

[KevShmev]

I understand and as a fan, I loved MP for everything he did with DT and all the side projects I loved.  I think asking for a 5 year stop was too much. Take a year or 2 off. 

The relationship thing is also 2 sided.  At some point you know some band members are the leaders and the followers and it is just that.  In the end I still love DT and most of MP's output so it's a win/win for me.

Same here.  Regardless of what I think of Mike Portnoy the man, it never stops me from enjoying the music he is a part of.  Well, unless it sucks ass like Adrenaline Mob.   But hey, since he left DT, he's been a part of another Transatlantic record, three more Neal Morse studio albums, and the two Flying Colors albums, all of which are great (to varying degrees), so it is win-win for me, too.

[TAC]

I'm the exact opposite. My favorite musician basically dropped off the map. 

[Setlist Scotty]

I never thought submitting an instrumental at that point was a big deal TBH.

I agree - the reasoning was that they wanted to put a song together quickly, and since they had all sorts of sections of songs that had not been used during the BCaSL writing sessions, they put some of those together to come up with Raw Dog, went into the studio and cut it. Having to take the time to write lyrics would've taken more time.

But getting back to the point about MP vs. JL, I agree that there was friction that probably developed over time because of MP being a little to forthcoming with his feelings about JL's voice. That's just not something that you do. So while it stayed out of the public eye, who knows how much was said between them? Probably a decent amount so that there wasn't much love lost between them. Then after MP split and the whole mess with MP gullibly reading a Blabbermouth headline (without reading the article) and pulling a thread on his forum regarding JL's solo tour (which, IIRC never happened), that's when things went from bad to much worse between them.

[KevShmev]

I don't see doing Raw Dog as being a big deal either.  Given the nature of that video game or whatever, it had to be an instrumental.

And I look at it this way, TAC: if Portnoy stays in DT, we still get just as many Neal Morse albums (since Neal writes an album a year seemingly).  Hard to say if he would have had time for another TA album that soon.  However, does Flying Colors even exist if he stays in DT?  Quite possibly no.  And considering how much I like ADTOE, DT12 and both FC albums, I consider that a major win from an output standpoint, even with A-Mob being a total flop.  Winery Dogs I don't really factor in; it's solid hard rock, but not something I ever listen to.

[King Postwhore]

I'm the exact opposite. My favorite musician basically dropped off the map. 

But your favorite musician was a big part of why he is not there anymore.   

Maybe Scotty can answer this but did MP try to talk things out with JLB and JM? 

I wonder if both side sat on their hands not talking to each other and instead of time off, they should have worked out these issues?

If I was in James shoes and one of the band member came out saying I wasn't a fit for his vision anymore I'd have an attitude as well.  Those issues should be private between band members to work out not in the public.

[ToT-147]

Now here's the thing - had MP continued in the band (since you feel he was in the wrong for thinking that a hiatus was the only solution and leaving when the rest of the guys didn't agree), would the band have found that change and refreshing that was needed? While it's all speculation, probably not - if it would've been up to the other guys, it would've been business as usual since they didn't see any problems with how things were going.

No, I meant to say that the right choice was, unfortunately, the one that it ended up happening.. i.e., MP leaving the band.. This is hypothetical too, but I think the change would've not necessarily followed the five years hiatus: it would've just postponed it five years or so.. MP would've wanted another break, and so on.. Because he IS like that.. That's why I think he was the problem.. His personality was..

And, the fact that he was an important part of the composition, made his absence inevitably causing a change and huge renovation to the band..

I understand and as a fan, I loved MP for everything he did with DT and all the side projects I loved.  I think asking for a 5 year stop was too much. Take a year or 2 off. 

The relationship thing is also 2 sided.  At some point you know some band members are the leaders and the followers and it is just that.  In the end I still love DT and most of MP's output so it's a win/win for me.

Same here.  Regardless of what I think of Mike Portnoy the man, it never stops me from enjoying the music he is a part of.  Well, unless it sucks ass like Adrenaline Mob.   But hey, since he left DT, he's been a part of another Transatlantic record, three more Neal Morse studio albums, and the two Flying Colors albums, all of which are great (to varying degrees), so it is win-win for me, too.

Hey, for me too!.. I don't like that much the prog rock side, but I do enjoy the Adrenaline Mob records, so... (mostly the second album, if you didn't hear it you can give it a shot )

[Stadler]

One, can we give the "five years" thing a rest?  It might have been said at the time, but there are too many interviews to link to that say "five years was a starting point, but ANY break would have worked".   I just saw a video interview with Mike not a week ago where he reiterated that the length was totally and fully negotiable. 

Two, bands don't have to be "best friends" to be good, creative or productive.   Gene and Paul are not friends and don't hang out much.   Aerosmith.  Priest (Halford is on record saying they haven't spoken once to KK since his "retirement", and when he was out of the band - ten years or so - he didn't speak to the band once).  Pearl Jam (watch the "Twenty" documentary).  Pink Floyd (even Gilmour and Mason, the two surviving members, are not best friends).  Fleetwood Mac.  Jane's Addiction.   The Rocking, Rolling Stones.   It's nice to think every band is like Rush, where the band members sit down to nice evening long dinners and give gifts and drink wine (see the Rush documentary for that), but that's not reality.   It is more like a sports team.  You don't have to like the guy next to you, you just have to trust him to do his job when the clock is ticking. 

Three, I think it is a horrible mischaracterization (and an abdication of responsibility on the part of the other band members) to say "MP was the problem".  It takes two - in this case, five - to tango, and any relationship problem is at least some part the fault of both parties.   I think the JLB thing was ongoing (watch the Systematic Chaos documentary) and I think the "James recording on his own in Canada" had at least something to do with that.  But I don't think it was the cause.  I think there was something - and we don't know what it is, because it's never been spoken about except in implication - that erupted between the two captains, JP and MP, and when that went down, it was just natural that JLB would pick his side.    It didn't help matters, but that wasn't the root cause. 

Four, my opinion only, but Mike was right.   I don't think the last two albums are bad, per se, as I would listen to them over a lot of what is in my collection, but they are not "great DT records".    There was an essence, a coherence, a vibe to the MP-era albums that are not there now.  I think it akin to "A Momentary Lapse of Reason"; of COURSE that is a Floyd album, and certainly "The Division Bell" is a very good Floyd album.  But it's not Wish You Were Here (but then again, what is?), nor does it have the vibe and feel of Wish You Were Here. 

[emtee]

I didn't imply "best friends" so maybe you are not addressing my post.

You don't have to be buds but you DO have to be able to tolerate each other. And again I could be totally wrong but I think it had reached
the point where they couldn't even tolerate each other.

[Paintbox]

Four, my opinion only, but Mike was right.   I don't think the last two albums are bad, per se, as I would listen to them over a lot of what is in my collection, but they are not "great DT records".    There was an essence, a coherence, a vibe to the MP-era albums that are not there now.  I think it akin to "A Momentary Lapse of Reason"; of COURSE that is a Floyd album, and certainly "The Division Bell" is a very good Floyd album.  But it's not Wish You Were Here (but then again, what is?), nor does it have the vibe and feel of Wish You Were Here.

Still, The division bell is a better album than The Final Cut, in The Pink Floyd case Waters leaving was for me a good thing. Maybe the first two album with Mangini are DT's A momentary lapse of reason, they have a lot of time to release their Division Bell

[King Postwhore]

Those last 2 Floyd albums we better than The Final Cut.  Let's be honest, you are absolutely right that it takes two, but if I had another band member talking about replacing me as the singer, I've have problems with him.  That should be private Stadler.  I just think mike handled everything the wrong way.  He leaves everything on his sleeve and sometime you need to handle things in house.  I also think how the other 3 bandmates reacted by moving on quickly says that they we all frustrated by Mike.

I don't know the inner workings of them privately but how quick they moved on says a lot.

[Orbert]

I agree with all that, but it also helps to keep in mind that the clock was ticking.  After the usual break following an album/tour, the time had come to get back together and start talking about the next album.  It was then that Mike suggested the break.  (This is how I remember things; I could be way off.)  So okay, the conversation didn't go the way Mike had imagined, and shortly after, he's gone.  Yes, the band recovered quickly, set up auditions, found a new drummer, made the next album, but in a sense, they had to.  They knew that a band that disappears from the scene for too long gets forgotten, or at least loses momentum, which was a big part of the argument against taking a break in the first place.  That same attitude I'm sure pushed them to not let the process go on too long.  Not that it was a decision to make lightly, but I'm sure there was a certain sense of urgency to find a new drummer and get the new album done.

[ToT-147]

Totally agree with kingshmegland..

One, can we give the "five years" thing a rest?  It might have been said at the time, but there are too many interviews to link to that say "five years was a starting point, but ANY break would have worked".   I just saw a video interview with Mike not a week ago where he reiterated that the length was totally and fully negotiable. 

Yeah, I know that.. I was just saying "five" years because that's longer than one or two, in which you might not have any change at all.. With five (and, as some have said before, this is all speculation) is likely that they would had a change, but then the problems and "stress" would've been back.. Because you don't change your personality in five-or even more-years.. You calm down the things a little, but if there's a major problem, you can't stop this from happening again and again.. And there was a major problem..

I think it is a horrible mischaracterization (and an abdication of responsibility on the part of the other band members) to say "MP was the problem".  It takes two - in this case, five - to tango, and any relationship problem is at least some part the fault of both parties.

I think that, because he was the one "stressing" the band.. The thing on stage we'll never know if actually bothered or not the guys, but what did bother them, and this has also been said in interviews, was the rotating setlists.. Specially to JR, who had to reprogramme his keyboard everytime only because MP wanted to play songs in places they didn't have yet.. But also the others, who had to learn songs everytime and remember well the order, etc (and we're not precisely talking of easy songs, even when we know their abilities..)

But much has been said in this thread about this.. I'll only mention one more example, that even you have pointed out: MP thought there was a problem, because he realised they weren't friends, and that's why he thought there should've been a break.. But, as you said it, they don't have to be friends to be in a band, and to create songs.. In fact, they did BC&SL with that deteriorated relationship, and for me is one of their best albums.. So I agree about that, but then you should recognize that MP was wrong in that..

That's, anyway, only one of the reasons I think the problem was Portnoy.. Obviously, I know that sounds very simplistic on my part, but I think the arrival of MM and the good vibe of the band since then gives it even more sense..

[Lumiukko]

About the MP vs JLB thing you guys mentioned:

In 2010, during the BCSL tour, I went to the show in a nearby city and got to see the entire thing right in front of the stage. I ended up seeing something really tense.
At the end of a verse MP made a gesture to JLB that I couldn't figure out what it meant, but it was clear that JLB didn't like it. His immediate reaction was to grab by the pedestal by it's base and put the mic right in front of MP's face.

[goo-goo]

They knew that a band that disappears from the scene for too long gets forgotten, or at least loses momentum,

Which is what is happening to Porcupine Tree 

[NotePad]

I remember watching something where JLB said it was nice now not having someone (MP) on stage constantly showing off and taking all the focus. He was implying something like the attention of the audience was more evenly spread out now.

Perhaps JLB and Portnoy were having a battle of egos. They both wanted to be the star.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

They knew that a band that disappears from the scene for too long gets forgotten, or at least loses momentum,

Which is what is happening to Porcupine Tree 

I don't think that's the case with PT.

The only thing with Porcupine Tree is that the music was mostly from Steven Wilson, and he is still incredibly active but releasing music under his own name. As long as Steven is such a strong name within the genre, none of his projects will fall to obscurity. True, it's obvious the band isn't what it was back in 2009, but I'm perfectly fine with Steven doing what he's been doing.

[goo-goo]

They knew that a band that disappears from the scene for too long gets forgotten, or at least loses momentum,

Which is what is happening to Porcupine Tree 

I don't think that's the case with PT.

The only thing with Porcupine Tree is that the music was mostly from Steven Wilson, and he is still incredibly active but releasing music under his own name. As long as Steven is such a strong name within the genre, none of his projects will fall to obscurity. True, it's obvious the band isn't what it was back in 2009, but I'm perfectly fine with Steven doing what he's been doing.

But PT was at its peak, same as Dream Theater when MP suggested the break/hiatus. PT went with it and now it's been 6 years with no album or tour. PT gained a lot of territory in North America during their last two tours. It's going to be real hard to regain that momentum, at least in NA. Europe is a different market and I see them embracing the band very quickly. Yes, I realize that SW was Porcupine Tree in a sense, but overall, the band had a distinct sound and the players made PT in some way, that SW hasn't been able to replicate in his solo outputs. Don't get me wrong, I love SW's solo albums, but PT had something that I still haven't been able to see or identify in his solo stuff.

Back to discussing DT 

[NotePad]

I should add that perhaps MP feels that DT should approach it like Iron Maiden does and only release an album every 4 years or so. Personally I feel they should.

[ToT-147]

I remember watching something where JLB said it was nice now not having someone (MP) on stage constantly showing off and taking all the focus. He was implying something like the attention of the audience was more evenly spread out now.

Perhaps JLB and Portnoy were having a battle of egos. They both wanted to be the star.

I should add that perhaps MP feels that DT should approach it like Iron Maiden does and only release an album every 4 years or so. Personally I feel they should.

You can also see an example of that in the canadian rap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKmnlvO47E

The star "should" be the singer, and not the drummer.. But there you hear how MP forces him to sing against his will.. JLB clearly didn't want to do it, but he start playing and there's no turning back.. Besides, at the end MP interrupts him to make a joke, and thus getting the applause.. Now that he's gone from DT, I must quote Iron Maiden: Tears of a Clown.. 

And, precisely about Maiden, I don't think so about the album every 4 years.. IM has 10 years more than DT.. They're old, and that's why they do that.. DT is not.. Still..

[TAC]

About the MP vs JLB thing you guys mentioned:

In 2010, during the BCSL tour, I went to the show in a nearby city and got to see the entire thing right in front of the stage. I ended up seeing something really tense.
At the end of a verse MP made a gesture to JLB that I couldn't figure out what it meant, but it was clear that JLB didn't like it. His immediate reaction was to grab by the pedestal by it's base and put the mic right in front of MP's face.

Not surprised to hear this.

[Madman Shepherd]

One, can we give the "five years" thing a rest?  It might have been said at the time, but there are too many interviews to link to that say "five years was a starting point, but ANY break would have worked".   I just saw a video interview with Mike not a week ago where he reiterated that the length was totally and fully negotiable. 

Thats totally false.  "Indefinite hiatus" was the starting point.  When pressed what that meant, Mike said five years.  Then he began negotiating down. 

[KevShmev]

Agreed.  Sorry, Stadler, but the five years thing is relevant to the discussion, so it should not be given a rest.  Portnoy trying to downplay it in interviews since merely comes off as him trying to save face because the band called his bluff (I guarantee, deep down, he never thought they would go on without him).

[Madman Shepherd]

Agreed.  Sorry, Stadler, but the five years thing is relevant to the discussion, so it should not be given a rest.  Portnoy trying to downplay it in interviews since merely comes off as him trying to save face because the band called his bluff (I guarantee, deep down, he never thought they would go on without him).

I disagree a bit.  I think he was so checked out with the potential of becoming A7X's permanent drummer that by the time he realized they would go on without him, he figured, "fuck it."

[TAC]

the band called his bluff (I guarantee, deep down, he never thought they would go on without him).

They completely called his bluff. I've said that the whole time. And I'm sorry, but this band was relieved that MP was out of the picture.

[pcs90]

And I'm sorry, but this band was relieved that MP was out of the picture.

And rightfully so!

[Rho d Berth]

The problem was imho that Mike was doing everything for DT, he worked the hardest, organized the most, was the most public figure, etc.
He was very aware of that and he was also always talking about that and making clear how he was the leader of the band and how he did everything, etc.

He was right that he actually was doing everything, but talking so much about that always results in bad feelings among the others.

So imho the problem was on both ends, JLB, JP, JM and JR were just leaving stuff to MP and enjoyed it that way, that was there fault.
And MP should not have bragged/talked so much about that, he's too much of a talker.
both ends are too blame. The part of DT that didn't stand up to do more and the part (=MP) that couldn't stop talking about how much he did.

[Vandalism]

The problem was imho that Mike was doing everything for DT, he worked the hardest, organized the most, was the most public figure, etc.
He was very aware of that and he was also always talking about that and making clear how he was the leader of the band and how he did everything, etc.

He was right that he actually was doing everything, but talking so much about that always results in bad feelings among the others.

So imho the problem was on both ends, JLB, JP, JM and JR were just leaving stuff to MP and enjoyed it that way, that was there fault.
And MP should not have bragged/talked so much about that, he's too much of a talker.
both ends are too blame. The part of DT that didn't stand up to do more and the part (=MP) that couldn't stop talking about how much he did.

100% This!

Also while he was playing for A7X during an interview he did say he found it new and refreshing to just be the drummer. Maybe he got attracted to the less workload regime he was in and just because he was not sure whether this is what he wants he proposed a hiatus. But to hold the band hostage on this was too extreme IMO.