5 years later, was Portnoy right?

[Madman Shepherd]

If that was a shot JLB took at Portnoy, he is still like 394 shots behind

I only show 60

So JLB is 60 shots behind Mike?

[Calvin6s]

So JLB is 60 shots behind Mike?

It really doesn't matter. 

LaBrie, with his beady eyes and flapping head, still hasn't apologized for Bryan Adams.

[ariich]

If that was a shot JLB took at Portnoy, he is still like 394 shots behind, considering all of the shots Portnoy took at him over the years.  Being annoyed at his shot almost sounds defending a bully (Portnoy), when the person who was bullied (LaBrie) finally manned up and hit back.  Yes, how dare LaBrie not sit back and just take it anymore!!

I'm not sure that's the right way of looking at it. When it all kicked off, I was in full agreement that Mike was taking digs and shots and that it wasn't very classy. But then I felt a little uncomfortable when James started doing some of the same, especially when large parts of the fanbase had been praising the band for being classy and taking the high ground. There's no need to take sides, cheap shots are cheap shots, and while Mike may have taken far more of them (probably largely because he speaks publicly far more in general) that doesn't excuse others.

[BlobVanDam]

I agree again. There's no need to choose a side and argue that side is completely infallible or justified in every case.
MP obviously took several shots at DT after his departure, and should have known better, but they're all adults; I think they can handle a few negative words without reacting (and they've done an admirable job of simply ignoring it and moving forward with only minor exceptions). They're not 5 year olds, they're grown men in public jobs, there's nobody being "bullied", and no need to "hit back". It serves no purpose.

[Cyclopssss]

Well, taking shots after a breakup is something I completely understand. After ten years being in a cool band, I realised it wasn't going anywhere and I pulled the plug.
And it hurt like hell, I can tell you. Then it hurt some more watching the others move on with their lives as if you weren't 'the best of buddies' for over ten years.
And I was the one pulling the plug! I should have felt relieved, but hell no. Now imagine that after 25 years . So I totally understand.

[hefdaddy42]

I agree again. There's no need to choose a side and argue that side is completely infallible or justified in every case.
MP obviously took several shots at DT after his departure, and should have known better, but they're all adults; I think they can handle a few negative words without reacting (and they've done an admirable job of simply ignoring it and moving forward with only minor exceptions). They're not 5 year olds, they're grown men in public jobs, there's nobody being "bullied", and no need to "hit back". It serves no purpose.

Yes, but some people seem fixated on JLB's "shot" (if that's what this was), but seem OK with all the comments that MP has made, even dating back to the time that he was still in the band.

[Cyclopssss]

Yeah, off course, it goes without saying that both sides are guilty of the same.

[TAC]

Yes, but some people seem fixated on JLB's "shot" (if that's what this was), but seem OK with all the comments that MP has made, even dating back to the time that he was still in the band.

Well, that's not me. I actually praise James for the restraint that he has shown. But to say he's never taken a shot at MP, well, that's not true. That's all I was really saying.
MP was up James' ass big time. I've been trying to point that out for years now. It was embarrassing at times.

[Stadler]

"It’s where things should be on stage where it’s not somebody in the background trying to grab the limelight, when maybe they should just be grooving or whatever."

Well, what's wrong with that? A lot of fans have also felt the same way. There was an interview with JR where he called MP the "Dream Theater Police", and basically said they feel much more free without him. I thought that was a lot more direct...though I agree 100% with him either way.

So the definition of attacking someone is whether everyone else agrees with it or not?  I try to be as fair as I can be with the limited information we have.  If I stumble in that, well, I'm comfortable that a) in the grand scheme of things this means almost nothing, and b) if I'm going to be wrong or inconsistent about something, let it at least be something I am speculating on and not something that is factually unassailable. 

Look, I started this, and I stand by my opinion -  JLB made comments at the time of Mike's leaving that were less than gracious, and gave indication (at least to me) that there was more than a little relief at his leaving.   I never said it was "right" or "wrong", I never said I gave a pass to all the things Mike said (some I do, others - like finding another singer - not so much), and I can't at all say I am "fixated" on any one statement.  To me it's not a sports event where we keep tally.   

I'm also trying very hard to keep my opinion on this separate from whether we "like" the person or not, but others aren't, and that is unfortunate.  I find this problematic, because MP is probably my favorite member, but I can remember first hearing I&W and thinking "HOLY CRAP is that singer good" and also thinking "What is the deal with that double bass drum?  Tone it the fuck down, Ringo!".   I've said many times that my appreciation for DT has slipped a shade with Mike's leaving, but I would probably not listen to them again if James left/was asked to leave.  He is the sound of DT for me.   Having said that, I don't care at all for how he handled the break up.  I just don't, and he's not the only one, but that's who we're talking about now.

[mikeyd23]

Yes, but some people seem fixated on JLB's "shot" (if that's what this was), but seem OK with all the comments that MP has made, even dating back to the time that he was still in the band.

Yep.

This pretty much sums it up for me. Shots were certainly fired by MP and arguably JLB as well. But I think everyone involved has moved on...

[BlobVanDam]

I agree again. There's no need to choose a side and argue that side is completely infallible or justified in every case.
MP obviously took several shots at DT after his departure, and should have known better, but they're all adults; I think they can handle a few negative words without reacting (and they've done an admirable job of simply ignoring it and moving forward with only minor exceptions). They're not 5 year olds, they're grown men in public jobs, there's nobody being "bullied", and no need to "hit back". It serves no purpose.

Yes, but some people seem fixated on JLB's "shot" (if that's what this was), but seem OK with all the comments that MP has made, even dating back to the time that he was still in the band.

Has anyone here said that? MP undoubtedly said things that crossed the line after leaving DT (although to be fair I do think a lot of them have been overblown by DTF too).

[Bertielee]

Tbh,  some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?

B.Lee

[Stadler]

Tbh,  some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?

B.Lee

Who says we haven't "moved on"?  The question was asked, it was answered.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not losing an iota of sleep over this.  It's just interesting (for some of us) to discuss.   It's the thread title for gosh sakes (so nothings been hijacked) and it isn't like there are reams and reams of press releases surrounding DT at this point...

[Bertielee]

Tbh,  some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?

B.Lee

Who says we haven't "moved on"?  The question was asked, it was answered.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not losing an iota of sleep over this.  It's just interesting (for some of us) to discuss.   It's the thread title for gosh sakes (so nothings been hijacked) and it isn't like there are reams and reams of press releases surrounding DT at this point...

MP, is that you?

Btw, I didn't say it wasn't interesting, so you're reading too much into my post and look,  I could also interpret your reply as slightly aggressive as almost every other post you wrote in the thread when defending MP. But I won't. Let's move on!

B.Lee

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Tbh,  some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?

B.Lee

Who says we haven't "moved on"?  The question was asked, it was answered. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not losing an iota of sleep over this. 

I don't think anyone is losing any sleep over this. Chill, friend.

[Orbert]

I'm sorry, but I am losing sleep over this, and I refuse to chill.

I was up all last night, and more nights in the past five years than I care to count, worrying about whether or not MP was right, and whether he and JLB will ever be friends again.  It just gnaws at me, you know?  I love these guys so much -- strictly platonically, mind you -- that it rips me apart seeing them at each other's throats like this.  Or rather, metaphorically at each other's throats.  Or really just taking digs at each other, even though they were five years ago, and it was actually pretty discrete sometimes.  But still, I am losing sleep, and I resent anyone saying that I'm not.  Although I have to admit, it's probably just because my wife snores so damned loudly, but you know I can't bring that up.  Why would I tell total strangers on some message board that my wife snores so damned loudly that it keeps me awake at night?  That wouldn't be appropriate at all, so of course I'd never do that.  This is a Dream Theater forum, so presumably discussion should center around Dream Theater, especially in the Dream Theater subforum.  So I blame them for me losing so much sleep.  There, I said it.  I feel better now.  (But still kinda sleepy.)

[Enalya]

 ^

[Madman Shepherd]

 

[King Postwhore]

Bob, snoring and ROOOO ROOOOOOOOO's are no way to go through life son.

[Orbert]

I know, and I worry about that.  So much, that I'm losing sleep over it.  More nights in the past five years than I care to count.

[ToT-147]

FAS.. 

[ariich]

I agree again. There's no need to choose a side and argue that side is completely infallible or justified in every case.
MP obviously took several shots at DT after his departure, and should have known better, but they're all adults; I think they can handle a few negative words without reacting (and they've done an admirable job of simply ignoring it and moving forward with only minor exceptions). They're not 5 year olds, they're grown men in public jobs, there's nobody being "bullied", and no need to "hit back". It serves no purpose.

Yes, but some people seem fixated on JLB's "shot" (if that's what this was), but seem OK with all the comments that MP has made, even dating back to the time that he was still in the band.

Can't say I've noticed that, but if they are, then obviously they should get a grip.

[Stadler]

Tbh,  some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?

B.Lee

Who says we haven't "moved on"?  The question was asked, it was answered.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not losing an iota of sleep over this.  It's just interesting (for some of us) to discuss.   It's the thread title for gosh sakes (so nothings been hijacked) and it isn't like there are reams and reams of press releases surrounding DT at this point...

MP, is that you?

Btw, I didn't say it wasn't interesting, so you're reading too much into my post and look,  I could also interpret your reply as slightly aggressive as almost every other post you wrote in the thread when defending MP. But I won't. Let's move on!

B.Lee

No aggression, but help me out a little, as I am confused (and no, I'm NOT MP.  though I'd love to spend three hours in his memorabilia "vault").  First you say some of us are "taking it too personally", then when I say no, it's just interesting conversation, I have to chill?  I can't speak for Orbert, who is either in denial or delirious from lack of REM sleep (kidding, friend!), but outside of this conversation, I don't give this a moments thought, it CERTAINLY isn't personal, and I'm certainly not going to burn any bridges on the forum over this.    If that's not "chill", then I'm old and I don't get the meaning of that word. 

[Bertielee]

Tbh,  some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?

B.Lee

Who says we haven't "moved on"?  The question was asked, it was answered.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not losing an iota of sleep over this.  It's just interesting (for some of us) to discuss.   It's the thread title for gosh sakes (so nothings been hijacked) and it isn't like there are reams and reams of press releases surrounding DT at this point...

MP, is that you?

Btw, I didn't say it wasn't interesting, so you're reading too much into my post and look,  I could also interpret your reply as slightly aggressive as almost every other post you wrote in the thread when defending MP. But I won't. Let's move on!

B.Lee

No aggression, but help me out a little, as I am confused (and no, I'm NOT MP.  though I'd love to spend three hours in his memorabilia "vault").  First you say some of us are "taking it too personally", then when I say no, it's just interesting conversation, I have to chill?  I can't speak for Orbert, who is either in denial or delirious from lack of REM sleep (kidding, friend!), but outside of this conversation, I don't give this a moments thought, it CERTAINLY isn't personal, and I'm certainly not going to burn any bridges on the forum over this.    If that's not "chill", then I'm old and I don't get the meaning of that word. 

See, when I said that some here seemed to take the issue personally, you answered back as if I had said YOU took it personally. And, yes, I still find your previous reply a little aggressive, but I'm an old fart, that may explain things a little...Anyways, let's say there was misunderstanding and leave it at that. Life is too short to get angry over things that have nothing to do with us. Peace! 

B.Lee

[Stadler]

Tbh,  some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?

B.Lee

Who says we haven't "moved on"?  The question was asked, it was answered.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not losing an iota of sleep over this.  It's just interesting (for some of us) to discuss.   It's the thread title for gosh sakes (so nothings been hijacked) and it isn't like there are reams and reams of press releases surrounding DT at this point...

MP, is that you?

Btw, I didn't say it wasn't interesting, so you're reading too much into my post and look,  I could also interpret your reply as slightly aggressive as almost every other post you wrote in the thread when defending MP. But I won't. Let's move on!

B.Lee

No aggression, but help me out a little, as I am confused (and no, I'm NOT MP.  though I'd love to spend three hours in his memorabilia "vault").  First you say some of us are "taking it too personally", then when I say no, it's just interesting conversation, I have to chill?  I can't speak for Orbert, who is either in denial or delirious from lack of REM sleep (kidding, friend!), but outside of this conversation, I don't give this a moments thought, it CERTAINLY isn't personal, and I'm certainly not going to burn any bridges on the forum over this.    If that's not "chill", then I'm old and I don't get the meaning of that word. 

See, when I said that some here seemed to take the issue personally, you answered back as if I had said YOU took it personally. And, yes, I still find your previous reply a little aggressive, but I'm an old fart, that may explain things a little...Anyways, let's say there was misunderstanding and leave it at that. Life is too short to get angry over things that have nothing to do with us. Peace! 

B.Lee

Haha, well I feel like I'm the one being quoted, so I view it as a conversation; maybe that's it.

But I agree: certainly no room for being angry here, over this.   PEACE. 

[Shine]

Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.

And this is right here the reason that I think Minnemann would have been a better choice (in my opinion). Marco doesn't shy away from writing and composing and IIRC, he plays all of the instruments in his solo outings. The guy just keeps writing and releasing solo albums and collaborations (The Aristocrats, LMR, his solo stuff, which is quite extensive). I think Marco would have pushed DT a little bit of out their comfort zone.

Yeah but then we wouldn't have gotten Marco doing the drum work for Plini's latest EP. And honestly I wouldn't trade that EP for the past 5 DT albums.

[ToT-147]

Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.

But he DID contribute with the songwriting.. And, again, MP was important, but not at all a "major part" of the writing.. JP/JR were and still are the main composers..

Anyways, why would it be a problem if a drummer doesn't compose anything? That's what happen in most of bands, even in prog bands..

Yeah but then we wouldn't have gotten Marco doing the drum work for Plini's latest EP. And honestly I wouldn't trade that EP for the past 5 DT albums.

Don't agree now that I'm listening to it, but thanks for the data!, sounds very decent..

[pcs90]

And this is right here the reason that I think Minnemann would have been a better choice (in my opinion). Marco doesn't shy away from writing and composing and IIRC, he plays all of the instruments in his solo outings. The guy just keeps writing and releasing solo albums and collaborations (The Aristocrats, LMR, his solo stuff, which is quite extensive). I think Marco would have pushed DT a little bit of out their comfort zone.

I love Marco, but I'm glad he didn't become the drummer of DT because I feel like if he did, my favorite albums from him wouldn't be released (LMR, and the new Aristocrats album). I haven't heard a lot of his solo stuff but he does play other instruments besides drums for sure. But the collaborations he does are awesome and he'd probably have a lot less time for them if he was in DT.

[Setlist Scotty]

Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.

But he DID contribute with the songwriting..

I never said he did not - if you look at what I was responding to, it was the comment MM made that he was didn't feel comfortable in fully contributing to the songwriting. My point was that I understood that he wouldn't want to do so on the first album he was on, and even could understand a certain amount of hesitation that he might have in the writing of the second album, but there's a problem if he still feels the same way when working on the third album. I mean the guy has been in DT longer than Derek Sherinian at this point, and you can be sure that this was never a problem for Derek!
 
 

And, again, MP was important, but not at all a "major part" of the writing.. JP/JR were and still are the main composers..

Nobody is gonna argue with who creates the majority of the individual parts - since JR's been in the band, it's always been primarily JP and JR. But don't discount MP's involvement in the songwriting process. There were some parts that he himself came up with and he had a major hand in the arranging of the songs. And considering his personality, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the ideas that JP and/or JR came up with were motivated by MP when he was the arranging of songs.
 
 

Anyways, why would it be a problem if a drummer doesn't compose anything? That's what happen in most of bands, even in prog bands..

For some bands, no. But that was not the case with DT in the past. In fact the beauty of DT was the blending of ideas from the different guys - in fact I'd love to see JM and JL fully integrated into the songwriting as well. When it's whittled down to just two guys, it potentially takes away from the variety of options/ideas. Besides, when you have an amazing musician like MM in the band who has a bunch of ideas, wouldn't you want to give them all consideration to maybe take the band in a different direction or writing style that previously was unexplored? The worst thing that could happen is that some of those ideas get rejected. That's one of the great things about having a new member join the band - what he/she can contribute.

[SystematicThought]

Scotty, what songs was MP pretty instrumental in crafting elements to? I know he is behind the main riff for A Rite of Passage.

[Setlist Scotty]

Scotty, what songs was MP pretty instrumental in crafting elements to? I know he is behind the main riff for A Rite of Passage.

Good question. There's not that many instances of specific parts of songs being identified as being written by one member or another, but that riff from ARoP was. Also, the opening drum pattern of UaGM was something I know he came up, so it wouldn't surprise me if the melody came from him too.

Another one that comes to mind is New Millennium - while credited to the 4 instrumentalists, MP said on one of the commentaries (I believe the L@B drum DVD) that it was the only song that JP had zero involvement in writing. While it's possible that Derek and JM wrote the whole song and MP only did arranging and lyrics, I'd imagine some song parts were composed by him.

Honestly, a lot of it is speculation, but if the man says that he did compose parts of some DT songs, I'd take that to the bank.

[Bertielee]

You know what Scotty, and maybe that is purely wishful thinking on my part, what if the novelty DT are speaking about for the new album was a contribution from all members to at least one song as composers? Now, that would be awesome : everybody would let their ideas flow, musical differences and all, and mesh into a gigantic musical patchwork.

B.Lee

[NotePad]

I'd like to see some new energy in their music. Their stuff has definitely been feeling stale for awhile now. Not bad, just stale and very predictable. Portnoy had the right idea. But this will never happen. They want to keep going and I respect that. Maybe they're afraid of losing popularity; it does seem like they're more popular now than they have ever been.

The last album was a step in the right direction, but certainly far from amazing. I want something more raw, with some faster songs too. I want Awake.

[Bertielee]

I want Awake.

It will never happen.

B.Lee

[Shine]

I want Awake.

It will never happen.

B.Lee

But a man can dream, can't he?