5 years later, was Portnoy right?

[ToT-147]

My point was that I understood that he wouldn't want to do so on the first album he was on, and even could understand a certain amount of hesitation that he might have in the writing of the second album, but there's a problem if he still feels the same way when working on the third album. I mean the guy has been in DT longer than Derek Sherinian at this point, and you can be sure that this was never a problem for Derek!

Well, it's not the same if you're a drummer or a keyboardist regarding the writing.. Derek was much more able in that sense to create songs, the most important thing of these being the melodies, than MM, which we know is not a composer drummer (like Donati, Minnemann, and even like Portnoy, who doesn't know how to write from a string or woodwind instrument, but he does from his own drum, which I think is one of his most important talents).. Mangini is a professor and he knows a lot about music, but he doesn't have any experience in composing, so it's logical that he's not contributing in the music as MP did..

And, again, MP was important, but not at all a "major part" of the writing.. JP/JR were and still are the main composers..

Nobody is gonna argue with who creates the majority of the individual parts - since JR's been in the band, it's always been primarily JP and JR. But don't discount MP's involvement in the songwriting process. There were some parts that he himself came up with and he had a major hand in the arranging of the songs. And considering his personality, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the ideas that JP and/or JR came up with were motivated by MP when he was the arranging of songs.

I'm not discounting at all MP's contributions.. But you said before that MP "was a major part of the writing".. Now you're saying he wasn't.. Anyways, about the rest of the comment above I agree.. MP was the secret ingredient in DT's songwriting..

Besides, when you have an amazing musician like MM in the band who has a bunch of ideas, wouldn't you want to give them all consideration to maybe take the band in a different direction or writing style that previously was unexplored? The worst thing that could happen is that some of those ideas get rejected.

Not if those ideas are bad or don't fit with the band.. Yeah, in the end is kind of paradoxical, because I guess that are JP and JR (mainly) who decides which idea is good or not for a certain song.. But you can't accept an idea only because is coming from an "amazing (technically speaking I assume you mean) musician"..

Scotty, what songs was MP pretty instrumental in crafting elements to? I know he is behind the main riff for A Rite of Passage.

Maybe he was listening very often to Misunderstood's chorus when he came up with that one.. 

what if the novelty DT are speaking about for the new album was a contribution from all members to at least one song as composers?

According to them, that already happened in DT12 with TEI, TLG, TBP, BTV, STR and IT.. And they're all great songs..

[Setlist Scotty]

My point was that I understood that he wouldn't want to do so on the first album he was on, and even could understand a certain amount of hesitation that he might have in the writing of the second album, but there's a problem if he still feels the same way when working on the third album. I mean the guy has been in DT longer than Derek Sherinian at this point, and you can be sure that this was never a problem for Derek!

Well, it's not the same if you're a drummer or a keyboardist regarding the writing.. Derek was much more able in that sense to create songs, the most important thing of these being the melodies, than MM, which we know is not a composer drummer (like Donati, Minnemann, and even like Portnoy, who doesn't know how to write from a string or woodwind instrument, but he does from his own drum, which I think is one of his most important talents).. Mangini is a professor and he knows a lot about music, but he doesn't have any experience in composing, so it's logical that he's not contributing in the music as MP did..

Well, is it an established fact that MM does not compose or know how to compose ideas? Has he said something to that degree? Considering that the man is/was a professor in the music field, I'd have to imagine the guy knows how to write music as well as MP does.

And for the record, while he'd never be able to give JP a run for the money, MP can play at least some basic guitar - probably to the same extent that JP can play keyboards (keeping in mind, JP brought in Wither as an idea that he played using block chords on a keyboard, not guitar). Not only did MP play bass for Nightmare Cinema, but he also played part of Van Halen's Eruption on the Chaos in Motion tour on JP's guitar during the stretched out intro to Trial of Tears. And I recall seeing him sitting on a couch playing around with one of JP's Ibanez guitars way back in the day, so I think it's safe to say he can play rudimentary ideas to communicate to others if necessary.
 
 

And, again, MP was important, but not at all a "major part" of the writing.. JP/JR were and still are the main composers..

Nobody is gonna argue with who creates the majority of the individual parts - since JR's been in the band, it's always been primarily JP and JR. But don't discount MP's involvement in the songwriting process. There were some parts that he himself came up with and he had a major hand in the arranging of the songs. And considering his personality, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the ideas that JP and/or JR came up with were motivated by MP when he was the arranging of songs.

I'm not discounting at all MP's contributions.. But you said before that MP "was a major part of the writing".. Now you're saying he wasn't.. Anyways, about the rest of the comment above I agree.. MP was the secret ingredient in DT's songwriting..

Understood, and maybe I got a bit overzealous in what I posted, altho his skills at arranging were key to their songwriting, which I think we agree on. 

Besides, when you have an amazing musician like MM in the band who has a bunch of ideas, wouldn't you want to give them all consideration to maybe take the band in a different direction or writing style that previously was unexplored? The worst thing that could happen is that some of those ideas get rejected.

Not if those ideas are bad or don't fit with the band.. Yeah, in the end is kind of paradoxical, because I guess that are JP and JR (mainly) who decides which idea is good or not for a certain song.. But you can't accept an idea only because is coming from an "amazing (technically speaking I assume you mean) musician"..

Oh I'm with you there - if the ideas suck, forget it. But at least he should feel comfortable throwing those ideas out there (at least the ones he feels strongly about) for the others to consider, and I think it's safe to say he's probably got at least a few that might be really good, if not more.

[Skeever]

Right now it seems like Portnoy was right. Even though ADTOE was good, 3 years have now passed since DT12, and that album was more along the lines of the disappointing late Portnoy-era Dream Theater. I know plenty of diehard fans love DT12, but the consensus elsewhere on the internet and offline seems to be that it was not as good as ADTOE.

That said, all it would take for people to stop questioning the new Dream Theater is another great album. No pressure 

[Cool Chris]

Right now it seems like Portnoy was right. Even though ADTOE was good, 3 years have now passed since DT12, and that album was more along the lines of the disappointing late Portnoy-era Dream Theater. I know plenty of diehard fans love DT12, but the consensus elsewhere on the internet and offline seems to be that it was not as good as ADTOE.

How does that make him "right?" What exactly are we questioning if he was "right" about anyway? He wanted a break. That isn't a matter of being "right" or not.

[ToT-147]

Right now it seems like Portnoy was right. Even though ADTOE was good, 3 years have now passed since DT12, and that album was more along the lines of the disappointing late Portnoy-era Dream Theater. I know plenty of diehard fans love DT12, but the consensus elsewhere on the internet and offline seems to be that it was not as good as ADTOE.

How does that make him "right?" What exactly are we questioning if he was "right" about anyway? He wanted a break. That isn't a matter of being "right" or not.

Exactly, and besides that, I insist that the break didn't happen.. So is even impossible for us to argue if he was right or not.. There's no valid opinion about that, because the facts were others.. They didn't stop for five years with MP.. They didn't continue with him.. They continued with another drummer.. So the question is pointless (I like the thread though )..

[Skeever]

Right now it seems like Portnoy was right. Even though ADTOE was good, 3 years have now passed since DT12, and that album was more along the lines of the disappointing late Portnoy-era Dream Theater. I know plenty of diehard fans love DT12, but the consensus elsewhere on the internet and offline seems to be that it was not as good as ADTOE.

How does that make him "right?" What exactly are we questioning if he was "right" about anyway? He wanted a break. That isn't a matter of being "right" or not.

Right that maybe it was time for DT to hang it up for awhile.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Right now it seems like Portnoy was right. Even though ADTOE was good, 3 years have now passed since DT12, and that album was more along the lines of the disappointing late Portnoy-era Dream Theater. I know plenty of diehard fans love DT12, but the consensus elsewhere on the internet and offline seems to be that it was not as good as ADTOE.

How does that make him "right?" What exactly are we questioning if he was "right" about anyway? He wanted a break. That isn't a matter of being "right" or not.

Whether he was right or not about DT losing steam & needing a break to catch up & revitalise their creative ability. Basically, would ADTOE & DT12 have been better or worse if Portnoy were still in the band: that's what I think the OP was getting at.

[ToT-147]

Whether he was right or not about DT losing steam & needing a break to catch up & revitalise their creative ability. Basically, would ADTOE & DT12 have been better or worse if Portnoy were still in the band: that's what I think the OP was getting at.

Yeah, I read his first comment and that's exactly what he meant, though I still find no sense at all in the question since we only have hypothetical situations to talk about.. We have to imagine that other possibility (MP being in the band) to answer the question..

I think, in the end, is all a matter of tastes.. The ones who like ADToE and DT12, as I do, wouldn't be saying MP was right.. And those who don't like them, would say he was.. To put it simple.. So is not about him being right, but about the albums without him being good or not..

[Shine]

Whether he was right or not about DT losing steam & needing a break to catch up & revitalise their creative ability. Basically, would ADTOE & DT12 have been better or worse if Portnoy were still in the band: that's what I think the OP was getting at.

Yeah, I read his first comment and that's exactly what he meant, though I still find no sense at all in the question since we only have hypothetical situations to talk about.. We have to imagine that other possibility (MP being in the band) to answer the question..

I think, in the end, is all a matter of tastes.. The ones who like ADToE and DT12, as I do, wouldn't be saying MP was right.. And those who don't like them, would say he was.. To put it simple.. So is not about him being right, but about the albums without him being good or not..

Yeah that's kind of my point. Obviously there's no objectively right or wrong answer to this question, it was just a way to spark discussion. Saying "well we can't go back in time and actually compare the output of the band with and without Portnoy convincing them all to take a break, therefore it's completely valueless to discusses it" is missing the point.

[Cool Chris]

Whether he was right or not about DT losing steam & needing a break to catch up & revitalise their creative ability. Basically, would ADTOE & DT12 have been better or worse if Portnoy were still in the band: that's what I think the OP was getting at.

Maybe I don't fully understand the situation, I don't really care, but I thought MP wanted a break for personal reasons, more than thinking the band itself needed a break. And so, if MP was still in the band and they went on a break, we wouldn't even have had the last two albums because the band wouldn't have been doing anything, so it is a weird "what if?" to think about. 2 decent releases are almost always better than no releases.

[goo-goo]

I just hope DT and MP can reach a commercial agreement to release the stuff on MP's vault as part of the YTSEJAM records...

[pcs90]

Well, is it an established fact that MM does not compose or know how to compose ideas? Has he said something to that degree? Considering that the man is/was a professor in the music field, I'd have to imagine the guy knows how to write music as well as MP does.

I could be way off on this because I can't remember exactly where I thought I heard this, but I remember MM saying in an interview that he does write songs, but he keeps them separate from DT. I don't remember if he gave a reason or not, but if this is accurate then I'd hope it's not because he feels like he shouldn't be able to provide these ideas to the band. Considering how his kit is set up and how interested he is in making it all fit in melodically with the rest of the band he must be able to compose something I'd think...

[FLEEBS]

Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.

Not sure why you think this.

Well, I for one think they are both rather sub par, although there is some decent stuff on each album.

[Tumdace]

Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.

Not sure why you think this.

Well, I for one think they are both rather sub par, although there is some decent stuff on each album.

Well thats just like... your opinion man...

[Train of Naught]

Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.

Not sure why you think this.

I thought ADTOE was one of the favorites among many, and DT12 has very mixed opinions, but never thought people believed them to both be  'average at best' to the majority.

[KevShmev]

Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.

Not sure why you think this.

I thought ADTOE was one of the favorites among many, and DT12 has very mixed opinions, but never thought people believed them to both be  'average at best' to the majority.

You are correct.

Shine is most definitely not.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.

Not sure why you think this.

I thought ADTOE was one of the favorites among many, and DT12 has very mixed opinions, but never thought people believed them to both be  'average at best' to the majority.

You are correct.

Shine is most definitely not.

As has been stated in other threads, it depends whether "average" means "DT average" or "average in general. Neither album appears much above the midpoint in overall DT album rankings, though I would assume most on this board would think of most/all of the band's work as well above the overall average of the music that is produced in the world.

[ToT-147]

Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.

Not sure why you think this.

I thought ADTOE was one of the favorites among many, and DT12 has very mixed opinions, but never thought people believed them to both be  'average at best' to the majority.

You are correct.

Shine is most definitely not.

As has been stated in other threads, it depends whether "average" means "DT average" or "average in general. Neither album appears much above the midpoint in overall DT album rankings, though I would assume most on this board would think of most/all of the band's work as well above the overall average of the music that is produced in the world.

Exactly.. And I think Shine meant to say "DT average".. Which means they're pretty good for most of us comparing those albums with the rest of the music we like, while they're not comparing them with the rest of DT albums..

It's very convenient in my case, because I rank them precisely right in the middle, along with SFaM.. So but

[Train of Naught]

Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.

Not sure why you think this.

I thought ADTOE was one of the favorites among many, and DT12 has very mixed opinions, but never thought people believed them to both be  'average at best' to the majority.

You are correct.

Shine is most definitely not.

As has been stated in other threads, it depends whether "average" means "DT average" or "average in general. Neither album appears much above the midpoint in overall DT album rankings, though I would assume most on this board would think of most/all of the band's work as well above the overall average of the music that is produced in the world.

I meant DT average, thought it was pretty obvious but that might be on me. I wouldn't say when Shine says the albums are "average at best" it is instantly assumed to be both albums being either 5th 6th or 7th, usually when someone calls an album average at best, they mean it won't exceed that level of averageness, and there's definitely not a wide consensus that that's the case for these albums.

[jsbru]

Every bit of this.   IMO, SC was their worst album, and still is.   BCSL was not really much better.    The step up in quality after the change was...well...dramatic. 

MP was correct that the band needed a fresh direction, it was just obviously not anticipated that the fresh direction would come via a split. 

Yup.  ADTOE was the best album they've put out in a while.  IMO the best since Awake even.

Portnoy was right that the band needed a reboot, but as someone else mentioned, he seemed to be the one that always wanted things to be heavier and heavier.  That heavy sound just doesn't work in overdoses with DT's musical style.  SC was them trying way too hard to sound like Metallica and even Pantera at some points.

Their last two albums were far more dynamic tone-wise.  I still think they're a bit too far on the heavy side, but they're making good music.  And that doesn't mean I don't appreciate their heavy songs.  Lie was what got me into DT, and Bridges in the Sky is probably my second-favorite song on ADTOE, but I appreciate sonic diversity (beyond just throwing in a piano ballad here or there).  I really like Looking Glass (and it seems like Spotify users agree, as it's got the most listens out of any non pre-released song).

[cramx3]

A couple weeks ago I got to see the Winery Dogs, the first time seeing MP since he played with DT at MSG opening for Iron Maiden.  I got to say, he went from playing good sized venues and be a focal point of a big bang to playing a small venue and not being a focal point of a small band.  I would imagine from monetary standpoint that leaving DT was not the best choice.

[Orbert]

True, but I've always gotten a sense that with MP, it was not about the money.  Now, part of that could easily be because when he was with DT and they were selling lots of albums and concert tickets, the money was flowing in and wasn't an issue, so it didn't matter if all those side projects didn't make much money.  Now that all he has are these smaller projects, I'm sure he's feeling a bit of income pinch, but it's clear that he's always loved playing different things, doing different things musically, and for a true artist, that's still the most important thing.

[cramx3]

True, but I've always gotten a sense that with MP, it was not about the money.  Now, part of that could easily be because when he was with DT and they were selling lots of albums and concert tickets, the money was flowing in and wasn't an issue, so it didn't matter if all those side projects didn't make much money.  Now that all he has are these smaller projects, I'm sure he's feeling a bit of income pinch, but it's clear that he's always loved playing different things, doing different things musically, and for a true artist, that's still the most important thing.

I would hope as an artist that yes, its not ALL about the money, but we are all humans who need money to survive and life the lives we live.  I was just trying to make a point about "was he right?" from a monetary angle.  At the same time though, I only gave one example, he has enough other things going on that maybe it all adds up. 

[goo-goo]

True, but I've always gotten a sense that with MP, it was not about the money.  Now, part of that could easily be because when he was with DT and they were selling lots of albums and concert tickets, the money was flowing in and wasn't an issue, so it didn't matter if all those side projects didn't make much money.  Now that all he has are these smaller projects, I'm sure he's feeling a bit of income pinch, but it's clear that he's always loved playing different things, doing different things musically, and for a true artist, that's still the most important thing.

I would hope as an artist that yes, its not ALL about the money, but we are all humans who need money to survive and life the lives we live.  I was just trying to make a point about "was he right?" from a monetary angle.  At the same time though, I only gave one example, he has enough other things going on that maybe it all adds up.

I think his playing with Avenged Sevenfold was fairly compensated as well as the Twisted Sister gig he currently has. I think Adrenaline Mob was a financial disaster when they first started, not sure how they are doing now (although I would probably still see Amob because Russell is the fucking man!!). Transatlantic and Flying Colors on a financial point of view, would be on the middle of the pack (same for the Neal Morse gigs), although not even close to what he had in DT. This is all just speculation on my part. And I would guess the royalties he still gets from DT plus the compensation he got when leaving are/were pretty decent.

[Orbert]

True, but I've always gotten a sense that with MP, it was not about the money.  Now, part of that could easily be because when he was with DT and they were selling lots of albums and concert tickets, the money was flowing in and wasn't an issue, so it didn't matter if all those side projects didn't make much money.  Now that all he has are these smaller projects, I'm sure he's feeling a bit of income pinch, but it's clear that he's always loved playing different things, doing different things musically, and for a true artist, that's still the most important thing.

I would hope as an artist that yes, its not ALL about the money, but we are all humans who need money to survive and life the lives we live.  I was just trying to make a point about "was he right?" from a monetary angle.  At the same time though, I only gave one example, he has enough other things going on that maybe it all adds up. 

I hear you.  The monetary angle is a valid concern.  I'm sure Mike would prefer not to become some kind of starving artist, literally not making enough to live on as he pursues he artistic ambitions, but I'm also sure that that would never happen.

Just as you were only bringing up the monetary angle as another way of looking at whether or not it was the "right" decision, I was balancing that by pointing out that the monetary angle should not be the primary consideration.  I agree that at the very least, it should be considered.

[cramx3]

The guy is human and has a family, he has a bottom line like us all.  However I do agree that he is a great and well enough known musician that he isnt going to be at that point where money is a problem.  Just interesting to think about.  It's so personal so maybe its not even something to discuss, but I often do wonder how much musicians make and how all that works out for them.

[Madman Shepherd]

I believe he said he actually lost money on Adrenaline Mob.  He actually invested his personal money into that band so that they could tour in a bus instead of a van and other stuff (I am assuming the first ep they put out was financed by him...the one that was sold through his website before they got their record deal).  This is just from my recollection of interviews but I am almost positive thats what he said. 

[Skeever]

I think Shine is pretty much right about the albums being "average" although I'd leave the "at best" part out.

If you look around different aggregate review sites like I do, both ADTOE and DT12 score marks consistent with the rest of the post-SDOIT discog. Nothing exceptionally high or low. I think ADTOE was a sigh of relief for fans, but I'd be surprised to see if most people consider it a to DT album.

[wideworldofmike]

I noticed on ADTOE that they borrowed arrangements from I&W right away, but I always chalked that up to pressure on JP to deliver on time and in spirit of band. However much that speaks to Portony's original reasoning, DT lost a huge part of their identity and left to find a new one. There are some great songs on it regardless. BAI for me was an instant classic.

The self-titled they were able to go back to the way they made some past records, collaboratively in the studio and on-the-fly. MM making significant contribution and was very exciting, Enemy Inside intro is bananas. There is so much strong original musicianship and arranging.

Next album they will have been together like this for more than half a decade, and from the looks of it they are really throwing the kitchen sink at it collectively. So here’s hoping for a very strong, original sound.

BCASL as the last album till now would have been a big musical loss in hindsight. They have produced some material extremely worthy of previous DT catalog since. And MP is very productive and diversified now which is probably great for him personally. He gave everything he had with DT, 110%, left it all on the field, no doubts several lifetimes of work for mere mortals. Always felt that they all made the right choices for themselves even if it was really tough on all of them.

[NotePad]

Portnoy was right, DT should have just taken a break. The music is starting to sound way too same-ey. The S/T album was good, but imagine what it could have been had they taken another year or two to build more inspiration. With or without Portnoy. They can still take that break but it's a shame they probably won't.

[King Postwhore]

Maybe Portnoy should have cut down the side projects so he could feel refreshed with the band he had most invested with.

[Setlist Scotty]

Maybe Portnoy should have cut down the side projects so he could feel refreshed with the band he had most invested with.

Perhaps, but I don't think so. The man is a workaholic. Recently he posted on Facebook a comment about how he loved being out on the road (but loved the photo his wife sent him of one of his dogs), and there's been other posts he's made in the past where he gets bored when he's at home for too long a time.

I *think* the biggest thing was that besides not feeling the strong bond of friendship not only between him and the other guys, but amongst the other 4 guys themselves, that he was confined by having to commit so much time to DT. When your stuck doing the same thing for a long period of time, after a while it can get pretty old, and while I don't think he's ever felt that way about making music (studio or live), it seems that it finally got to that point for him with DT. So I doubt cutting back on the side projects would've helped the situation.

However, the one thing that I wish he would've done was express his feelings to the rest of the band much earlier, around the time that he started getting those nagging feels (which I think went as far back as the ProgNation tour in Europe). Had he done that, maybe he and the rest of the band could've avoided what ended up happening. Maybe not. But I think it would've been a wiser choice than unexpectedly springing it on the rest of the guys when they're getting ready to talk about their plans for their next album.

[MirrorMask]

Yeah, I tend to agree with that. A five year (or anyway, indefinite) hiatus was a bad idea, but maybe if he would have started to suggest somehow "Hey guys, from earlier plans we made September will be the time when we'll regroup for the next cycle... how about skipping just a year? spend more time with side projects and then seeing each other in 12 months full of fresh ideas?"... maybe the others would have been more open to the idea.

[TAC]

However, the one thing that I wish he would've done was express his feelings to the rest of the band much earlier, around the time that he started getting those nagging feels (which I think went as far back as the ProgNation tour in Europe). Had he done that, maybe he and the rest of the band could've avoided what ended up happening. Maybe not. But I think it would've been a wiser choice than unexpectedly springing it on the rest of the guys when they're getting ready to talk about their plans for their next album.

I agree.

[ToT-147]

I don't..

The main problem WAS Portnoy himself..

That's why I take it as a paradoxical issue.. Portnoy was right, only because he wasn't.. He was right that it should've been a change in the band.. But he wasn't that a hiatus was precisely the better choice for it..

I think he's the best drummer I've heard.. And for that I felt deeply bad, and I still do even today, about him leaving the band; but, OTOH, I'm glad they've found that new sense of freshness they supposedly needed.. So it's black AND white for me..