Author Topic: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?  (Read 100699 times)

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Offline Bertielee

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #350 on: September 26, 2015, 08:05:24 AM »
There's absolutely no guarantee a X-year break would have done the band any good. Granted the recipe has grown a little stale over the years but the process began with 8vm for me, which means 3 albums with MP. While DT12 is far from being my favorite, I'll take it anytime of the day over the 3 albums that preceded ADToe. So, was MP right : yes, he was...he was right to leave because his departure has allowed the band to breathe.

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« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 08:10:53 AM by Bertielee »
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #351 on: September 26, 2015, 09:37:29 PM »
DT was "his baby"

Not.. It wasn't.. Or, if it was, it was also the other four guys' baby.. Stop placing the structural or promotional above the music!..

There's absolutely no guarantee a X-year break would have done the band any good.

Was MP right : yes, he was...he was right to leave because his departure has allowed the band to breathe.

Exactly.. And I'm saying this even when he's the best drummer IMO.. But yeah, they ARE in a break, since 2010... They broke with Portnoy..
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Offline ytserush

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #352 on: September 27, 2015, 07:09:10 PM »
Mike's OCD was great for us fans. I wonder because his life was DT and in the end, he was burnt out.

Exactly.  And has anyone noticed he's been involved in a lot more music since the split but but has dialed down the stuff he does?  He still does a lot, but it's not as extreme.




Offline Stadler

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #353 on: September 28, 2015, 09:05:31 AM »
Breaking news: according to many comments above none of this would exist:


-The Spirit Carries On's Documentary

-ADToE's snippets

-Q&A (wasn't this communication with the fan base?)
 
-Happy Holidays

-Two damn 3 hours DVD/Blu-Ray!!!

-Live versions: Metropolis pt 1 extended, the LTE/KC night, JP's solos, JR's solos, MM's solos (one of them in the middle of EM), Trial of Tears' improv, Awake and SFaM's birthdays, the resurrected songs.. And having into account that they supposedly had given up doing this kind of stuff..

And this is only what I can remember or what I know.. All this, when a 'regular' band (or 'one of those bands', whatever that really means) would've done the records (none of them so long btw), the tours (not an "an evening with" btw) and maybe some social network 'interaction' and that's it..



Five Ten years later, yes, Portnoy was right: everything is never enough..

If you're going to attack someone's opinion, the very least, the base level of common courtesy, is to at least get the thing you're attacking correct.    ONE (and I while I don't speak for Scotty, I don't think I am far off his base either), this is NOT a case of "never enough".   Not even close.  We've both commented on what they have done "right" (for lack of a better word), and have been clear that they are still A favorite, but not THE favorite.   TWO, Scotty, Orbert and I have all explained - I think in good detail - what a "one of many" really means, so your refusal to even acknowledge someone else's position (note I did not say "agree with it") says a lot more about you than us.  Several of us on "this side" of the line you insist on drawing even though we - and Hef - have said there is no need for that line have been clear:  we still buy the records.  We appreciate (well, I do, I don't know if any of the others mentioned this) the "Holiday" release (though not being much of a downloader, I can't resist the opportunity to note that hard CDs are best).

Don't expect, nor want, really, for you to agree, but having the common courtesy to acknowledge and respect differences without cheap "Never Enough" references would really elevate your game. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #354 on: September 28, 2015, 09:08:38 AM »
I didn't know they said such a thing.. Someone has the link to that interview?..

As I was saying about "understanding the argument before you attack it", I have repeated that here at least three times.  It is absolutely on record, and it was said point blank by James LaBrie in addition to the references here to JP saying it.   This is part of the beef, since he CLEARLY had the biggest axe to grind with Mike, and his comments were clearly intended to, if not berate Mike, then at least minimize the level of effort and contribution of the things he did (even if they didn't matter to you, any specific fan).   And yet, they must be of SOME consequence, because they didn't deliver.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 09:16:09 AM by Stadler »

Offline Stadler

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #355 on: September 28, 2015, 09:15:33 AM »
DT was "his baby"

Not.. It wasn't.. Or, if it was, it was also the other four guys' baby.. Stop placing the structural or promotional above the music!..

Uh, stop telling us what to value and what not to value.   Music is part of it, to be sure, but we've said this now about 8 different times, it is the intangible that set them apart from the hundreds if not thousands of other bands out there.   Not so much the "promotional" (I'm not on Facebook or Twitter) but the structural is what sets it apart.  I have over 2,000 CDs.  There are too many bands that I like for me to follow with any real diligence, or completeness.  So I'm looking for that "thing" to set them apart.  Marillion.  Genesis.  Yes is now getting into the game.  Crimson.  Maiden.

And (formerly) Dream Theater. 

Offline DarkLord_Lalinc

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #356 on: September 28, 2015, 11:24:08 AM »
;D  Sorry, I tried and failed.. What I supposed to write in the search engine?.. :justjen

DT best musan?????? the best them  :metal :metal :metal
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #357 on: September 28, 2015, 01:42:04 PM »
while I don't speak for Scotty, I don't think I am far off his base either), this is NOT a case of "never enough".   <snip> We appreciate (well, I do, I don't know if any of the others mentioned this) the "Holiday" release (though not being much of a downloader, I can't resist the opportunity to note that hard CDs are best).
Stads, thanx for expressing my feelings much more eloquently than I could - couldn't agree more with your post, including the point about appreciating the Holiday release but how it would be nice to have a factory pressed CD of it.

The only thing I'll add, is that while the things that ToT-147 listed are nice and appreciated, many of those things are not things that are exceptional by today's standards, and by that, I mean music artists in general. For instance, a documentary is something that many artists have done and released along with their respective studio albums. Many bands these days release a live album/video of every tour they do. The Q&A is also something that is done by many artists in this day of technology and media. And lately, anniversaries seem to be a good excuse for a lot of bands to tour or to hype their tour, whether they have a new album or not, altho it was cool to see them finally play SDVest. So all these things don't make the band exceptional as previously, but rather keep up with what many bands and artists do these days.

What I, and I would assume Stads and others are referring to are the other things, such as the rotating setlists, the cover songs, the official bootlegs, the more hands-on approach with fans and things of that nature. The Holidays release was very nice and something exceptional, even compared to when MP was in the band. And the stretched out/improvs found in Metropolis and ToT were great, but those were only developed late in their respective tours so only a fraction of the fans that saw them on those tours got to see those improvs - usually there was much more of that sort of thing on previous tours. The Evening With tour was great, but the lack of a rotating setlist, or even switching between an A and B setlist was disappointing and was the deciding factor in why I saw them once instead of multiple times on that tour; this was especially true when the band returned to play some of the same cities they played earlier in the year, playing the exact same setlist instead of changing some songs, despite their statements to the contrary.

So for me, the band still falls short on those things that made the especially special, and why I now consider them "just another band" albeit still my favorite band.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 01:50:03 PM by Setlist Scotty »
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #358 on: September 28, 2015, 01:47:06 PM »
DT was "his baby"

Not.. It wasn't.. Or, if it was, it was also the other four guys' baby.. Stop placing the structural or promotional above the music!..

It's in quotes because that's how MP referred to it. I get it bro. Trust me.

would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #359 on: September 28, 2015, 03:36:59 PM »


Don't expect, nor want, really, for you to agree, but having the common courtesy to acknowledge and respect differences without cheap "Never Enough" references would really elevate your game.

Interesting that quoting Mike Portnoy is considered "cheap"

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #360 on: September 28, 2015, 03:41:23 PM »
Didn't they keep the setlist fairly static just because - otherwise Mangini would have way too much stuff to learn in a short time ?


Makes sense to me...

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #361 on: September 28, 2015, 03:58:53 PM »
Didn't they keep the setlist fairly static just because - otherwise Mangini would have way too much stuff to learn in a short time ?


Makes sense to me...
I could see that on the first tour. When you look at the first tours DS and JR did with DT, in both cases the setlists were fairly static. But, on the following tours, there was a significant amount of changing of the setlist from night to night, especially for Jordan on World Tourbulence (which was also the first Evening With tour they did). So I'm not buying that for the 2014 tour.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline pcs90

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #362 on: September 28, 2015, 04:00:04 PM »
Didn't they keep the setlist fairly static just because - otherwise Mangini would have way too much stuff to learn in a short time ?


Makes sense to me...

Well, that didn't seem to stop them from changing the lists when Derek and Jordan joined. I know there are more songs now but I don't think anyone expects them to play every song they've ever played on one tour, just some little changes here or there would be nice.

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #363 on: September 28, 2015, 04:28:26 PM »
Didn't they keep the setlist fairly static just because - otherwise Mangini would have way too much stuff to learn in a short time ?


Makes sense to me...

No with the new stage a lot of the screen was synced to a click track.  I'd assume it was because of that.  What they should do is rotate a few songs that they can use the cameras on the guys.  That makes it easier. 

Now, because of the 2 anniversary albums, that limited them.  This timw, I hope the sneak a few more songs into the rotation.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #364 on: September 28, 2015, 06:33:52 PM »
I guess we have to look forward now of years of posts basically saying, "Yeah, but MP did more," no matter what the band does.  They are in a no-win situation with those tiny percentage of fans, but unlike their former drummer, I suspect the current members of Dream Theater are good about focusing on the mostly positive fans instead of worrying about the tinny tiny number of ones who seemingly will never be happy now.  :tup :tup

Offline 425

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #365 on: September 28, 2015, 08:01:07 PM »
To me, following this conversation, it becomes clearer and clearer that, if we grant the premise that DT is a special band, for many people MP was a big part of what made them a special band. He's obviously not everything, as most of the people commenting liked one or both of ADTOE and DT12 better than SC and BCSL. But it's clear from a lot of the things people are expressing that MP was a big part of what made DT special for a lot of people. He was a big part of what made them special for me (even though I became a fan after he left, I still felt the influence of what he did above and beyond in addition to what he did musically). Not everything, not even close to everything—the other guys who have contributed to DT, Petrucci probably most of all, are also important parts of what make them special.

But you can't discount the importance for a lot of people of who MP is and what he did for DT and still does in all his other projects. He's one-of-a-kind and it would be natural to miss him, even while believing that the band is on one of the best two-album runs of its career.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #366 on: September 28, 2015, 09:01:29 PM »
I can only speak for myself, but I thought DT was pretty special from 1993-2000, which was before I got online at dt.net.  For those 7+ years, I had no idea of the inner workings of the band or any of that kind of stuff, yet the band was still, at one would put it, "especially special" in my book. ;)  Some would say Portnoy was behind some of it, to my lack of knowledge at the time, but the point was that I didn't need to think, "Man, there is this guy in the band doing all of this stuff," to think the band was special.  The music alone was what made it so special. 

Even the first two live videos (Tokyo and 5 Years...) were shown in a way that made it look like a band of five guys doing their thing, not one guy trying to run the show (which is how some of the later videos came across).  I never got the idea watching the Tokyo or 5 Years... videos, or the early MTV videos, that Portnoy was the unofficial leader of the band or anything.  Granted, maybe he didn't take that mantel and fully run with it until after the FII sessions, the Sherinian ouster and Rudess joining the band, but the band was just better and more fun to be a fan of when he wasn't in full control.  I know I wasn't alone in being tired of nearly every DT video, interview and documentary ultimately becoming the Mike Portnoy Show, also featuring John Petrucci, Jordan Rudess, James LaBrie and occasionally John Myung. :lol :lol

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #367 on: September 29, 2015, 12:16:25 AM »
Some would say Portnoy was behind some of it, to my lack of knowledge at the time, but the point was that I didn't need to think, "Man, there is this guy in the band doing all of this stuff," to think the band was special.  The music alone was what made it so special. 
Without question, it was the music that got my attention.

But Portnoy stood out from the beginning (for me, the beginning being Images and Words tour).  He has a personality trait that is very rare (and to be envied).  He remembers people.  And not like some card trick where he just has a good memory.  He remembers you in ways that are, quite frankly, surprising.

From I&W to SFAM, I was the obsessed fan.  DT shows:  I must attend all local shows.  If that meant one in Orange County, a back to back in Los Angeles and one in Ventura County, I'm rearranging my life around it and making a day out of it (showing up way too early and staying after way too late).  Guitar clinics and drum clinics:  I'm so there.  NAMM show appearance and NAMM show concerts, I will exhaust the friend of a friend of a relative's son's connection to go there.  LTE shows:  I have to sneak my video camera in.

And every event (except the guitar clinics), I'd run into Portnoy.  I'd run into the other members, but Portnoy was the consistent run in.  And despite the fact that these were just fan-musician run ins, Portnoy would say "hey Calvin!!!" before I even got a word out.  And he'd bring up stuff I posted on ytsejam or other things that the average musician person would ever notice, let alone recall.  And it didn't come off as some strategic promotion plan.  It didn't seem like any kind of forced plan at all with some hidden agenda.  It seemed very natural and sincere.

The other band members just don't have that trait (except maybe Sherinian, but not to Portnoy's degree).  And that isn't a knock on them because most don't have that.  I don't have that.  I wish I did.  I've tried to force it because it is a desired trait, but it turns detrimental to other positive traits I have.  Quite frankly, you either have it or you don't.

And I'm going to stop right there because I could go on ... but sometimes I roll my eyes at myself when I talk too much about a band outside of the songs.

Offline goo-goo

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #368 on: September 29, 2015, 07:39:25 AM »
Say what you say but most of MP's reactions and interactions with fans were genuine and natural (whether they were good or bad, that's another matter) but he's always been there for the fans.

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #369 on: September 29, 2015, 08:04:15 AM »


Don't expect, nor want, really, for you to agree, but having the common courtesy to acknowledge and respect differences without cheap "Never Enough" references would really elevate your game.

Interesting that quoting Mike Portnoy is considered "cheap"

You're better than that.  You know full well that it isn't the quoting of Mr. Portnoy that is cheap, it's the token implication that anyone who doesn't drink the Kool-Aid is an ungrateful whiner. 

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #370 on: September 29, 2015, 08:10:23 AM »
Some would say Portnoy was behind some of it, to my lack of knowledge at the time, but the point was that I didn't need to think, "Man, there is this guy in the band doing all of this stuff," to think the band was special.  The music alone was what made it so special. 
Without question, it was the music that got my attention.

But Portnoy stood out from the beginning (for me, the beginning being Images and Words tour).  He has a personality trait that is very rare (and to be envied).  He remembers people.  And not like some card trick where he just has a good memory.  He remembers you in ways that are, quite frankly, surprising.

From I&W to SFAM, I was the obsessed fan.  DT shows:  I must attend all local shows.  If that meant one in Orange County, a back to back in Los Angeles and one in Ventura County, I'm rearranging my life around it and making a day out of it (showing up way too early and staying after way too late).  Guitar clinics and drum clinics:  I'm so there.  NAMM show appearance and NAMM show concerts, I will exhaust the friend of a friend of a relative's son's connection to go there.  LTE shows:  I have to sneak my video camera in.

And every event (except the guitar clinics), I'd run into Portnoy.  I'd run into the other members, but Portnoy was the consistent run in.  And despite the fact that these were just fan-musician run ins, Portnoy would say "hey Calvin!!!" before I even got a word out.  And he'd bring up stuff I posted on ytsejam or other things that the average musician person would ever notice, let alone recall.  And it didn't come off as some strategic promotion plan.  It didn't seem like any kind of forced plan at all with some hidden agenda.  It seemed very natural and sincere.

The other band members just don't have that trait (except maybe Sherinian, but not to Portnoy's degree).  And that isn't a knock on them because most don't have that.  I don't have that.  I wish I did.  I've tried to force it because it is a desired trait, but it turns detrimental to other positive traits I have.  Quite frankly, you either have it or you don't.

And I'm going to stop right there because I could go on ... but sometimes I roll my eyes at myself when I talk too much about a band outside of the songs.
Great post, and it brings a lot to the table for someone like me, who hasn't had the opportunity to see them live.  I've only gotten to see DT once, but I've been a fan of the band since the I&W days.

You're right, that is just apparently something that MP has that the other members don't (although, to be fair, I have heard similar stories about Jordan).

For me, my relationship with the band has been remote.  I get all the CDs on release day, and I have all the live releases, and I have tons of bootlegs.

Whenever there is a change of membership, it isn't just a plug-and-play.  The entire group dynamic changes. 

Frankly, the other four members may have been a little naive when making announcements about taking up the stuff that MP was doing.  That's what I expected.

Some of the things that MP contributed outside of the actual music was fantastic (his constant information stream about DT projects, his setlist variation), but some got kind of old too (his occasional outbursts, his insistence on playing cover songs).  So, for fans like me, there was good and not-so-good, which is fine; there is no such thing as perfection.

For me, the musicians are so good, that live shows are ALWAYS going to be entertaining.  So the most important thing to me is what is also the most important thing to the current incarnation of the band: the music they write and record.  And that had definitely started to slip (IMO) toward the end of the MP regime.  And that has dramatically improve with the two albums the band has created since his departure.

I certainly miss the great things that MP contributed to the band, but those things were never the things that made DT my favorite band - those things were bonuses.  The music is what made DT my favorite band, and frankly I wouldn't know any other way to judge a band.

The music is the thing.

So I think that MP was right that THAT incarnation of DT had run its course for a while, because the music on the last 2 albums (really, the last THREE albums other than the title track of Octavarium) had taken a nose dive from their previous glories.  Sure, good things here and there, but for me, the last album from the Portnoy era that was really good in its entirety was Train of Thought.

I'm not saying the MP was the problem, but with him gone, the band certainly has has a renewed enthusiasm and spirit.  And I MUCH prefer the last two albums from the band to the previous three.  And if the tradeoff for that vastly improved music is that we don't get some of the great things that MP contributed, I'm OK with that.

But if they could bring back the rotating setlists, that would be sweet.  :biggrin:

All of that is to say that our viewpoint on this matter is largely shaped by our individual experience of the band and its output and what is important to us as individuals.  There is no right or wrong, there are only different perspectives.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #371 on: September 29, 2015, 08:12:54 AM »
I guess we have to look forward now of years of posts basically saying, "Yeah, but MP did more," no matter what the band does.  They are in a no-win situation with those tiny percentage of fans, but unlike their former drummer, I suspect the current members of Dream Theater are good about focusing on the mostly positive fans instead of worrying about the tinny tiny number of ones who seemingly will never be happy now.  :tup :tup

What part of "still a first day buyer" (me) and "still my favorite band" (Scotty) are you missing?   Again, only for me, but it's not as if I am "unhappy", or negative.   I'm responding to the people that seem to want to ignore any possible differences, and seem to want to denigrate the idea that some of those differences may in fact be important to people.  And in part (and I suspect this is where the animosity is coming from) I am sticking up for the things that Mike did.  I won't sugar coat it: for all his foibles, I admire him, and consider him a fan who "gets it" perhaps a bit more than those that remain in the band. 

If you love it, and are happy and think it is better, I well and truly could not be happier for you.  I'm not calling you a fan boy, I'm not implying the band should ignore your feelings, and I'm not saying you are wrong.  Why can't those of us that are in the middle get the same courtesy?   Is it that hard? 

Offline Stadler

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #372 on: September 29, 2015, 08:31:19 AM »
I can only speak for myself, but I thought DT was pretty special from 1993-2000, which was before I got online at dt.net.  For those 7+ years, I had no idea of the inner workings of the band or any of that kind of stuff, yet the band was still, at one would put it, "especially special" in my book. ;)  Some would say Portnoy was behind some of it, to my lack of knowledge at the time, but the point was that I didn't need to think, "Man, there is this guy in the band doing all of this stuff," to think the band was special.  The music alone was what made it so special. 

Even the first two live videos (Tokyo and 5 Years...) were shown in a way that made it look like a band of five guys doing their thing, not one guy trying to run the show (which is how some of the later videos came across).  I never got the idea watching the Tokyo or 5 Years... videos, or the early MTV videos, that Portnoy was the unofficial leader of the band or anything.  Granted, maybe he didn't take that mantel and fully run with it until after the FII sessions, the Sherinian ouster and Rudess joining the band, but the band was just better and more fun to be a fan of when he wasn't in full control.  I know I wasn't alone in being tired of nearly every DT video, interview and documentary ultimately becoming the Mike Portnoy Show, also featuring John Petrucci, Jordan Rudess, James LaBrie and occasionally John Myung. :lol :lol

Does it surprise you that I have the same experience?  I got into them when I&W was first released, and it was actually James's voice that hooked me (on first listen I was actually kind of turned off to the double bass drums on Pull Me Under, though I have grown to like them).   It WAS the music that got me, but it was the attention to detail IN the music.  Then the fan club CDs.  Then the Ytsejam stuff...  I am that guy.   I have saved searches on eBay for hard to find disks I want.  When I lived in Philly, I'd walk by this store that had used CD racks on the sidewalk, and my then wife would get batshit angry at me because I HAD to stop to see if there was something new.   It's always the music that matters, but there is also that appreciation that the six different versions of To Live Forever are important. 

I read an article about Genesis and Phil said something like "no one really wants all those b-sides; plus they are embarrassing now!"  And I'm like, "I WANT THOSE B-SIDES!".  When they released the Archive set and left off two of them ("Me and Virgil" and "Match of the Day", and yes I am right, and no I didn't have to look it up) at Phil's request, I was PISSED.   I was like "Dude, you do NOT get it".  Ozzy same way.  How do you release deluxe versions of Blizzard and Diary and leave off officially released songs by Randy Rhoads ("You Said It All")???  Thankfully, with Eddie Trunk's help, I found out that the ONLY release of that song on CD was a promo CD for Crazy Babies, and so I searched it out.  I feel like Mike would understand that in a way that perhaps the current band doesn't. 

None of this is to say that all of a sudden "DT Sucks!", because they don't. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #373 on: September 29, 2015, 08:35:55 AM »
All of that is to say that our viewpoint on this matter is largely shaped by our individual experience of the band and its output and what is important to us as individuals.  There is no right or wrong, there are only different perspectives.

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #374 on: September 29, 2015, 08:44:07 AM »
I love you too, man.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #375 on: September 29, 2015, 10:06:55 AM »
Frankly, the other four members may have been a little naive when making announcements about taking up the stuff that MP was doing.  That's what I expected.

That makes the most sense, really.  At the time, changes were happening, but the band was moving forward and it was an exciting time, so of course they felt like "Don't worry, we're still the same band, etc." and they really felt like all the "extra" stuff could/should/would continue.  But then when things settled down a bit, they realized that the drive to keep all of that stuff up, and the know-how, and the resources, just weren't there, not to the levels they were when MP was around.


<Stuff that exactly parallels my experience getting into Dream Theater>

Does it surprise you that I have the same experience? 

Nope, because it was that way for me, too.

Quote
I read an article about Genesis and Phil said something like "no one really wants all those b-sides; plus they are embarrassing now!"  And I'm like, "I WANT THOSE B-SIDES!".  When they released the Archive set and left off two of them ("Me and Virgil" and "Match of the Day", and yes I am right, and no I didn't have to look it up) at Phil's request, I was PISSED.   I was like "Dude, you do NOT get it".  Ozzy same way.  How do you release deluxe versions of Blizzard and Diary and leave off officially released songs by Randy Rhoads ("You Said It All")???  Thankfully, with Eddie Trunk's help, I found out that the ONLY release of that song on CD was a promo CD for Crazy Babies, and so I searched it out.  I feel like Mike would understand that in a way that perhaps the current band doesn't. 

Once again, same here.  Artists often have no idea what songs their fans really want, or at the very least, they're most concerned with what most fans care about, and the rest of us, well too bad.  Those Archive sets were promoted as cleaning out the vaults, digging up lost treasures, and we got a few, but didn't get it all even when they had it to give, and a lot of what we got was IMO kinda useless.  The long-awaited live Lamb show, but with contemporary overdubs.  Seriously?  "Match of the Day" is a kinduv catchy song, but I really like "Me and Virgil" and regardless, they should have been included.

Basically, they were "Here's some cool rare stuff you might like, and a lot of stuff you already have, and some useless stuff to fill things out.  Enjoy!"

Offline OpenYourEyes311

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #376 on: September 29, 2015, 11:29:36 AM »
Quote
I read an article about Genesis and Phil said something like "no one really wants all those b-sides; plus they are embarrassing now!"  And I'm like, "I WANT THOSE B-SIDES!".  When they released the Archive set and left off two of them ("Me and Virgil" and "Match of the Day", and yes I am right, and no I didn't have to look it up) at Phil's request, I was PISSED.   I was like "Dude, you do NOT get it".  Ozzy same way.  How do you release deluxe versions of Blizzard and Diary and leave off officially released songs by Randy Rhoads ("You Said It All")???  Thankfully, with Eddie Trunk's help, I found out that the ONLY release of that song on CD was a promo CD for Crazy Babies, and so I searched it out.  I feel like Mike would understand that in a way that perhaps the current band doesn't. 

Once again, same here.  Artists often have no idea what songs their fans really want, or at the very least, they're most concerned with what most fans care about, and the rest of us, well too bad.  Those Archive sets were promoted as cleaning out the vaults, digging up lost treasures, and we got a few, but didn't get it all even when they had it to give, and a lot of what we got was IMO kinda useless.  The long-awaited live Lamb show, but with contemporary overdubs.  Seriously?  "Match of the Day" is a kinduv catchy song, but I really like "Me and Virgil" and regardless, they should have been included.

Basically, they were "Here's some cool rare stuff you might like, and a lot of stuff you already have, and some useless stuff to fill things out.  Enjoy!"

What's worse is they did the same thing with the 1983-1998 box set. They did NOT include every B-Side from the Ray Wilson era (They for whatever reason dropped 7/8, Phret, Banjo Man, and Papa He Said). They also could have easily included the long versions of Mama and It's Gonna Get Better. I would have also liked to have seen The Carpet Crawlers 1999 as well. All stuff that the average fan may not care about, but guys like us clearly do!
I don't want MP playing with DT unless they were making a drummer change. If they let MM go and bring back MP, then fine, but no guest appearance please.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #377 on: September 29, 2015, 11:44:26 AM »
Quote
I read an article about Genesis and Phil said something like "no one really wants all those b-sides; plus they are embarrassing now!"  And I'm like, "I WANT THOSE B-SIDES!".  When they released the Archive set and left off two of them ("Me and Virgil" and "Match of the Day", and yes I am right, and no I didn't have to look it up) at Phil's request, I was PISSED.   I was like "Dude, you do NOT get it".  Ozzy same way.  How do you release deluxe versions of Blizzard and Diary and leave off officially released songs by Randy Rhoads ("You Said It All")???  Thankfully, with Eddie Trunk's help, I found out that the ONLY release of that song on CD was a promo CD for Crazy Babies, and so I searched it out.  I feel like Mike would understand that in a way that perhaps the current band doesn't. 

Once again, same here.  Artists often have no idea what songs their fans really want, or at the very least, they're most concerned with what most fans care about, and the rest of us, well too bad.  Those Archive sets were promoted as cleaning out the vaults, digging up lost treasures, and we got a few, but didn't get it all even when they had it to give, and a lot of what we got was IMO kinda useless.  The long-awaited live Lamb show, but with contemporary overdubs.  Seriously?  "Match of the Day" is a kinduv catchy song, but I really like "Me and Virgil" and regardless, they should have been included.

Basically, they were "Here's some cool rare stuff you might like, and a lot of stuff you already have, and some useless stuff to fill things out.  Enjoy!"

What's worse is they did the same thing with the 1983-1998 box set. They did NOT include every B-Side from the Ray Wilson era (They for whatever reason dropped 7/8, Phret, Banjo Man, and Papa He Said). They also could have easily included the long versions of Mama and It's Gonna Get Better. I would have also liked to have seen The Carpet Crawlers 1999 as well. All stuff that the average fan may not care about, but guys like us clearly do!

I was making a different point, but since we're on this, we must mention the "holy grail" for many Genesis collectors, the Flexi-disk live version of "Firth of Fifth" from around the time of Duke or Abacab. 

Offline OpenYourEyes311

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #378 on: September 29, 2015, 11:51:11 AM »
I was making a different point, but since we're on this, we must mention the "holy grail" for many Genesis collectors, the Flexi-disk live version of "Firth of Fifth" from around the time of Duke or Abacab.

Haha, yeah, I kinda forgot I was in a DT thread. I see Genesis mentioned and I get all excited!  :lol

On topic, I would argue that there is no "right" or "wrong" here. You could say Mike was wrong/right for leaving, but also that the band was wrong/right for not taking him back for offering. It seemed like there were a lot of internal struggles for both Mike and the band, and the best option probably was a split. It probably was NOT the best option for it to be so public for so long. These days that's hard, I know. For selfish reasons, I do hope there is some sort of reconciliation somewhere down the road for him and the other four guys... the kind that will allow MP to open up the vaults again. I am under the assumption, however, that that will never happen.
I don't want MP playing with DT unless they were making a drummer change. If they let MM go and bring back MP, then fine, but no guest appearance please.
WELP.

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #379 on: September 29, 2015, 01:07:33 PM »
I will just kinda toss this out there.

One aspect of DT I do not like is something that others brought up the minute they broke through with Pull Me Under.  It is just a bunch of prodigies.

While they are very proficient at their instruments, they were also a real band where everybody seemed to be irreplaceable.  Ok.  LaBrie was an upgrade.  Well, that happens with other *real* bands.  Slight changes as one or two positions are not concrete in the beginning.

Then the upgrade to Rudess.  OMG.  This guy can play anything.  That was a little unsettling.
The talk of upgrading LaBrie again.
Then the *upgrade* to Mangini.

These proficiency upgrades aren't straightforward, but they seem to be the biggest selling points.  It does give the impression that it is more about technical prowess than songwriting.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 01:20:54 PM by Calvin6s »

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #380 on: September 29, 2015, 01:12:49 PM »
That's usually the case with 'prog metal' as a whole. The genre is defined by the virtuosism of its players, which manifests as long songs because they can manage to fit more complex passages within the song I believe.

Without the virtuostic element, DT wouldn't have reached as far as it did.
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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #381 on: September 29, 2015, 02:17:25 PM »
Without the virtuostic element, DT wouldn't have reached as far as it did.
I agree wholeheartedly.
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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #382 on: September 29, 2015, 03:03:53 PM »


I read an article about Genesis and Phil said something like "no one really wants all those b-sides; plus they are embarrassing now!"  And I'm like, "I WANT THOSE B-SIDES!".  When they released the Archive set and left off two of them ("Me and Virgil" and "Match of the Day", and yes I am right, and no I didn't have to look it up) at Phil's request, I was PISSED.   I was like "Dude, you do NOT get it".   

None of this is to say that all of a sudden "DT Sucks!", because they don't.

Not to throw this thread into the jagged rocks below, but you may want to find yourself an original US pressing of Three Sides Live (vinyl or CD). Me and Virgil is on there as part as the studio B-sides which made up the fourth side of the record. I want to say Match Of the Day was on recent Record Store Day release, but I'm likely wrong about that.



Otherwise, I was going to stay out of this because I still think Mike and the rest of the band are better off and I think the results thus far bear that out. 

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #383 on: September 29, 2015, 03:13:02 PM »
These proficiency upgrades aren't straightforward, but they seem to be the biggest selling points.  It does give the impression that it is more about technical prowess than songwriting.

Maybe if you only look at the musicians in isolation, but it's obvious that's not the case when you consider the actual music.  DT12 is a DT that is trying its damned hardest to write good songs.

Offline vtgrad

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #384 on: September 29, 2015, 03:21:48 PM »
Without the virtuostic element, DT wouldn't have reached as far as it did.
I agree wholeheartedly.

Quoted for truth.

My experiences with the band seem to mirror many of the other's here; fan since Pull Me Under, first-day-buy, so forth.  To be brutally honest, I never thought that I would ever get the chance to see them live (as a teen and young adult) because they never came anywhere close to me.  Then in 2004, my girlfriend (now my wife) said she would go to DC with me to see them; we made a trip of it (4-days) and enjoyed the drive up to DC from home.  I thought I was a fan... until I saw them live and REALLY became a fan.  My girlfriend had only heard DT in my car... she immediately became a fan after the show.

Since 2004, we've seen them at least once each tour cycle and we've been blessed to meet them three times (once with MP and twice with MM).  This last time meeting them, JP kind-of looked hard at me and said "I think we've met before right... you're normally here for the DC show."  I thought that was mighty cool... he didn't know my name (how awesome is Calvin's experience!) but there was some recognition. 

I said that to say this... for me, it doesn't matter if they never did anything else but release music and tour to finish out their career, I'd still be a big fan and still consider them my favorite.  I'd miss all the extra stuff (of course... who wouldn't) but the music is all that ever mattered to me.   
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