Author Topic: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?  (Read 100666 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline As I Am

  • Banned
  • Posts: 578
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #140 on: August 17, 2015, 01:16:27 PM »
I miss Portnoy and I think DT was a better band  with him. Miss his compositions, his playing, his live energy and the contact he had with the fans.

I liked ADTOE but think DT12 is their worst album.

Live they are still a great band to see, but I hate the click. Now they lack spontaneity.

Wish he was still in the band.

Agree with "almost" everything.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19364
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #141 on: August 17, 2015, 02:05:30 PM »
Album sales, concert attendance, grammy nominations

None of these really have anything to do with why they parted ways, so why even make it a part of the conversation.

They're part of the conversation because it's not just about the parting of ways, but whether or not Mike was "right", and each of these are ways of measuring Dream Theater's success since the split.  Some may not consider any or all of them to be proper ways of measuring success, but they are objective at the very least.  People can argue all day about which albums are better or worse or average, before or after the split, etc.  Album sales and concert attendance tell you how "big" a band is.

Offline Tick

  • It's time to make a change
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9762
  • Gender: Male
  • Just another tricky day for you
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #142 on: August 17, 2015, 02:19:00 PM »
Nonsense thread. The last 2 albums have been amazing imo.

Yup. Tick is dead on.  She's not your type.  Move on.   Tick is Obi Wan Kenobi


Online Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 43932
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #143 on: August 17, 2015, 03:12:19 PM »
Album sales, concert attendance, grammy nominations

None of these really have anything to do with why they parted ways, so why even make it a part of the conversation.

They're part of the conversation because it's not just about the parting of ways, but whether or not Mike was "right", and each of these are ways of measuring Dream Theater's success since the split.  Some may not consider any or all of them to be proper ways of measuring success, but they are objective at the very least.  People can argue all day about which albums are better or worse or average, before or after the split, etc.  Album sales and concert attendance tell you how "big" a band is.

I think Orbert is 100% right.  Because we all know One Direction is a better band than Dream Theater.

I kid, of course, and I don't think anyone would argue that they aren't at least a more financially successful band than DT, but it really does matter what the measure is.  I would personally love to ask Mike about this some day.  Some were looking at AMob as a stab towards that arena rock success (ala Disturbed, Staind, A7X, though for someone as smart and savvy as Mike, I can't believe that he would've put all his eggs into something as hokey as AMob) but really nothing he's done since was blatantly with an eye toward Grammy's and 100,000 seat metal festivals.   

Offline ariich

  • Roulette Supervillain
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28133
  • Gender: Male
  • sexin' you later
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #144 on: August 17, 2015, 03:15:38 PM »
Album sales, concert attendance, grammy nominations

None of these really have anything to do with why they parted ways, so why even make it a part of the conversation.

They're part of the conversation because it's not just about the parting of ways, but whether or not Mike was "right", and each of these are ways of measuring Dream Theater's success since the split.  Some may not consider any or all of them to be proper ways of measuring success, but they are objective at the very least.  People can argue all day about which albums are better or worse or average, before or after the split, etc.  Album sales and concert attendance tell you how "big" a band is.
Problem is, we don't have any kind of counterfactual. We've no idea what album sales and crowd sizes would have been like had MP been in the band.

Ariich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
I be am boner inducing.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19364
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #145 on: August 17, 2015, 03:59:10 PM »
Album sales, concert attendance, grammy nominations

None of these really have anything to do with why they parted ways, so why even make it a part of the conversation.

They're part of the conversation because it's not just about the parting of ways, but whether or not Mike was "right", and each of these are ways of measuring Dream Theater's success since the split.  Some may not consider any or all of them to be proper ways of measuring success, but they are objective at the very least.  People can argue all day about which albums are better or worse or average, before or after the split, etc.  Album sales and concert attendance tell you how "big" a band is.

I think Orbert is 100% right.  Because we all know One Direction is a better band than Dream Theater.

I kid, of course, and I don't think anyone would argue that they aren't at least a more financially successful band than DT, but it really does matter what the measure is.  I would personally love to ask Mike about this some day.  Some were looking at AMob as a stab towards that arena rock success (ala Disturbed, Staind, A7X, though for someone as smart and savvy as Mike, I can't believe that he would've put all his eggs into something as hokey as AMob) but really nothing he's done since was blatantly with an eye toward Grammy's and 100,000 seat metal festivals.   

I wasn't using sales to compare Dream Theater to some other band, and I wasn't arguing that more popular means better.

My point is that people can argue all day whether the two post-Portnoy albums are better or worse, but those are just opinions.  Did they sell more?  Do they now sell more concert tickets than they used to?  Those are more objective measures of how popular Dream Theater is, and in that sense how well they are doing.  It has nothing to do with comparing them to some other band; it's about comparing Dream Theater now to Dream Theater five years ago.  That was original question.

Offline RJ86

  • Posts: 37
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #146 on: August 17, 2015, 08:21:16 PM »
I, personally, shut off DT after SDOIT, and for quite some time. I was very happy with the 6.5 (gotta include Change of Seasons in there) albums. Heard Train of thought.. ugh.. Then I bought Octavarium and pulled it out after 2 songs (I seriously never finished listening to the whole thing). I Didn't want to hear any more. The band was heading in a "too heavy" direction for me. Being a fan since WDADU, I was turned off by the too heavy sound.

Now, I have gone back through the catalog in the past several months, and safe to say Portney leaving has breathed some sort of new life into the band. The last 2 releases have far exceeded the previous 4. I can't get into the depth, lyrics and all that. I just know what I personally like and where they were heading was no it. DT12 and ADTOE have jumped past SDOIT, for me.
And, seriously, how is Breaking All Illusions not everyones favorite song behind Metropolis and Learning to Live?  ;)


Offline Rodni Demental

  • Posts: 1113
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #147 on: August 17, 2015, 09:24:41 PM »
Then I bought Octavarium and pulled it out after 2 songs (I seriously never finished listening to the whole thing). I Didn't want to hear any more. The band was heading in a "too heavy" direction for me.

You stopped listening after The Answer Lies Within, because they were getting too heavy? :P

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13669
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #148 on: August 17, 2015, 10:46:41 PM »
We've no idea what album sales and crowd sizes would have been like had MP been in the band.

My guess is pretty minimal, as bands on a 5 year break tend to not sell a lot of albums or concert tickets.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Cyclopssss

  • Vocal Dinosaur pre-heat combustable
  • Posts: 2993
  • Gender: Male
  • Connoseur of love
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #149 on: August 18, 2015, 02:14:25 AM »
Personally, I miss Mike, because of Mike. I miss his personality, his showmanship, his gearing up the crowd.
Do I think DT is a better, tighter unit since he left? Yes, I actually do. I think Luna Park sucked, but Breaking the Fourth Wall was fantastic.
It's just something I have to live with, but he's making records and touring with Transatlantic, Winery Dogs, The Neal Morse Band, Flying Colour and now Metal Allegiance.
Mike's doing his thing. Mike's being Mike, and I like that. Also, Mangini is not Mike. Mangini might be a machine, Mike has groove. 
From the ocean comes the notion that the realise lies in rhythm. The rhythm of vision is dancer, and when you dance you´re always on the one. From the looking comes to see, wondrous realise real eyes....

Offline erwinrafael

  • Posts: 3436
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #150 on: August 18, 2015, 03:15:15 AM »
And Mangini has no groove. Here we go again.  :lol

Offline Kotowboy

  • Yes THAT Kotowboy.
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28561
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #151 on: August 18, 2015, 04:55:31 AM »
One of my biggest griped with Mangini is that he admits he composes solos to be an exercise and not to be musical.

That's why I can never enjoy his solos.

Offline Darkstarshades

  • Posts: 1045
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #152 on: August 18, 2015, 05:02:29 AM »
I think MM and MP are gay for each other.
Jatruccyundessgini

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34640
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #153 on: August 18, 2015, 05:41:41 AM »
One of my biggest griped with Mangini is that he admits he composes solos to be an exercise and not to be musical.

That's why I can never enjoy his solos.

Pretend you never heard him say that?  :lol

Offline Zydar

  • Creep With Tonality
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19325
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #154 on: August 18, 2015, 05:43:07 AM »
I can never enjoy drum solos in general. I find them boring, no matter who does them.
Zydar is my new hero.  I just laughed so hard I nearly shat.

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #155 on: August 18, 2015, 05:48:25 AM »
I can never enjoy drum solos in general. I find them boring, no matter who does them.

Likewise. Not a knock on any particular drummer, it's just not something I like to listen to solo. In fact, drum solos are my #2 greatest fear.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline bl5150

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9136
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #156 on: August 18, 2015, 05:50:44 AM »
I can never enjoy drum solos in general. I find them boring, no matter who does them.

Likewise. Not a knock on any particular drummer, it's just not something I like to listen to solo. In fact, drum solos are my #2 greatest fear.

I would agree 99% of the time but I do recall thinking that Alex Van Halen's solo on the 3 tour was the highlight of the night (and that was a great gig despite the album)...........  I normally go for a piss during drum solos.  A really cool calypso inspired solo with horn sounds piped in - it was quite amazing.
"I would just like to say that after all these years of heavy drinking, bright lights and late nights, I still don't need glasses. I drink right out of the bottle." - DLR

www.theguitardojo.com.au

Offline Darkstarshades

  • Posts: 1045
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #157 on: August 18, 2015, 05:54:16 AM »
I can never enjoy drum solos in general. I find them boring, no matter who does them.

Likewise. Not a knock on any particular drummer, it's just not something I like to listen to solo. In fact, drum solos are my #2 greatest fear.

And what's your greatest fear?
Jatruccyundessgini

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34640
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #158 on: August 18, 2015, 05:57:13 AM »
Not a big fan of drum solos either, but the time MP did the drum solo at progressive nation with the other drummers was actually a highlight of that show.  It really got the crowd going and a non DT fan that was with us was blown away by that and he even said that was the best part of the show.

Offline bl5150

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9136
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #159 on: August 18, 2015, 06:00:25 AM »
And I forgot Satchel.........  ;D

https://youtu.be/S5YwcaXSGu4?t=252
"I would just like to say that after all these years of heavy drinking, bright lights and late nights, I still don't need glasses. I drink right out of the bottle." - DLR

www.theguitardojo.com.au

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #160 on: August 18, 2015, 06:00:29 AM »
I can never enjoy drum solos in general. I find them boring, no matter who does them.

Likewise. Not a knock on any particular drummer, it's just not something I like to listen to solo. In fact, drum solos are my #2 greatest fear.

And what's your greatest fear?

#1 - Death
#2 - Drum solos
#3 - Losing power in the middle of saving a file
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline bl5150

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9136
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #161 on: August 18, 2015, 06:04:23 AM »
I was backing in sunlight.
"I would just like to say that after all these years of heavy drinking, bright lights and late nights, I still don't need glasses. I drink right out of the bottle." - DLR

www.theguitardojo.com.au

Offline Edergilmour

  • Posts: 74
  • Gender: Male
  • no alarms and no surprises, please.
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #162 on: August 18, 2015, 07:54:58 AM »

Online gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19323
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline erwinrafael

  • Posts: 3436
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #164 on: August 18, 2015, 09:26:00 AM »
One of my biggest griped with Mangini is that he admits he composes solos to be an exercise and not to be musical.

That's why I can never enjoy his solos.

What? Where did he say that? The interview I just posted in the Mike Mangini thread says the opposite.

The ones he say are not musical are the exercise videos he post online, and then in some parts of the 20 minute plus solos he do in drum clinics. But for shows, he always intends them to be musical, especially the solos he did in his later years.

The BTFW and LALP solos are very musical.

Offline Kotowboy

  • Yes THAT Kotowboy.
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28561
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #165 on: August 18, 2015, 10:31:30 AM »
I can't bear Mangini's solos. The only thing about him I don't enjoy. I just find them to be like a clinical exercise in compound time and polyrhythms.

It's not like " check out this sweet groovy tribal tom thing i'm doing " or anything that sounds nice to the ears like that.

It's more like " Check this out - i'm playing 17 with my right side and 9 with my left side "

It just bores me as a drum solo.


Offline Madman Shepherd

  • Posts: 3739
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #166 on: August 18, 2015, 04:11:11 PM »
I can't bear Mangini's solos. The only thing about him I don't enjoy. I just find them to be like a clinical exercise in compound time and polyrhythms.

It's not like " check out this sweet groovy tribal tom thing i'm doing " or anything that sounds nice to the ears like that.

It's more like " Check this out - i'm playing 17 with my right side and 9 with my left side "

It just bores me as a drum solo.

I feel the opposite because Mangini does have a lot of groove with in his drum solos.  He has some cool rhythms, cool beats, and sure some crazy exercises.  I would say at least 50% of drum solos bore me but Mangini's are not among them. 

I also have to say I love the cool tribal tom thing you speak of which is why I love the Ina-Gadda-Da-Vida drum solo or even a Peter Criss solo, the only decent thing Peter Criss does.  Even though they're simplistic, they are pleasing. 

Offline Kotowboy

  • Yes THAT Kotowboy.
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28561
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #167 on: August 18, 2015, 04:23:16 PM »
I love Jimmy Chamberlin for that stuff.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 42049
  • Gender: Male
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #168 on: August 18, 2015, 04:28:17 PM »
Drum solos mostly boring the snot out of me, too.  Even on the last few tours, Neil Peart's solos boring me, and I used to genuflect to his solos (not that I think any less of him; I am just bored by solos now).

Also, Stadler, that is not fair to say that JLB has taken "low shots" at Portnoy since the latter left the band, since a) JLB's comments were fairly harmless, and b) Portnoy took way worse shots at him were they were in the band together (a far worse offense).  Considering the criticism Portnoy used to level at him, fair or not, JLB has taken the high road.

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #169 on: August 18, 2015, 04:48:32 PM »
I agree with people that drum solos are usually mind-numbingly boring. However, something like this I will watch all the way through: https://youtu.be/_quRW8IKZ5Q
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12832
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #170 on: August 18, 2015, 05:29:00 PM »
I agree with people that drum solos are usually mind-numbingly boring. However, something like this I will watch all the way through: https://youtu.be/_quRW8IKZ5Q

Didn't like the rest of the music at all (which is not surprising), but that is a really cool video as it forced me to focus on the drumming, which was just...incredible.  Very technical, but also just a really nice groove and feel to it.  Fantastic.  I really just wish he played for a different band.  :lol
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Madman Shepherd

  • Posts: 3739
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #171 on: August 18, 2015, 06:36:26 PM »
I love Jimmy Chamberlin for that stuff.

That guy is a monster on drums!

Offline ResultsMayVary

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 4856
  • Gender: Male
  • Go Buckeyes!
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #172 on: August 18, 2015, 07:42:07 PM »
The Mangini drum solos were something that were cool on his first world tour with the band (like when Portnoy did them on the I&W world tour with the band's first major world exposure). But that's really the only situation I see where they can do a drum solo and it doesn't take away from the rest of the show. It's basically "We have a new drummer and he's going to show what he can do." They have so many songs they could play that the drum solo now-a-days could easily be replaced with a 4-6 minute tune.

And I'm having a hard time thinking how DT12 is their worst album (back to a comment earlier on this page). I hate to remind you that the original album recording of WDADU exists.
Where would YOU be without prog?!
I'd be standing somewhere with dignity, respect, and bitches.
When Mike and Mob Unite, featuring the hit A Lawsuit in Lies

Offline TheSilentHam

  • Posts: 878
  • Gender: Male
  • Bringin' da bacon
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #173 on: August 18, 2015, 07:59:05 PM »
I still enjoy the drum solo, but what I'd absolutely love to see now is a myung/mangini jam-out duet

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12832
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #174 on: August 18, 2015, 08:39:07 PM »
The Mangini drum solos were something that were cool on his first world tour with the band (like when Portnoy did them on the I&W world tour with the band's first major world exposure). But that's really the only situation I see where they can do a drum solo and it doesn't take away from the rest of the show. It's basically "We have a new drummer and he's going to show what he can do."

I generally agree.  But I don't mind a short solo tied into a song.  For example, I thought the short solo spot he had on the last tour in the middle of Enigma Machine worked well.  It fit well in that part of the song, and it wasn't so long that it took the place of an entire song.  I am fine with stuff like that. 
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."