Author Topic: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?  (Read 100728 times)

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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2015, 08:49:02 PM »
While I am happy to see DT still going strong after the break-up, I am still waiting for MP to actually get the needed creative boost he was hoping to get with the "break". I am a Mangini fanboy, but Portnoy is still one of my favorites. Awake remains my favorite drumming in a full album. I'm saddened that despite going from one project to another, MP's drumming still sounds the same as it did back in ToT, which for me is the last time I got to hear something new from by MP. Even when he tries a different genre, like thrash metal, it doesn't sound like MP drumming thrash metal, but rather thrash metal with a signature MP drumming supporting it.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2015, 09:09:05 PM »
In some respects, I agree that a bit of the excitement regarding behind the scenes stuff isn't the same.  No one in the band now hypes up upcoming album the way Portnoy did, but on the flip side, I was one who was sick and tired of him being the face of the band.  Nearly every interview, whether it be about a new album or a tour, was going to have to Mike Portnoy, and he was going to dominate the conversation.  That got old really fast.

Or on the behind the scenes footage we did get involved MP making a face at the camera about every 2 minutes.  That also got old fast. 


Offline KevShmev

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2015, 09:44:22 PM »
I was never bothered by MP's ego.
 

I'm really not sure how big his ego really is.  I think his insecurity is why he craves so much attention and always needs to be complimented and praised, while being so defensive over the slightest bit of criticism.  A totally secure person does not fly off the handle at criticism the way he does.  So yeah, I don't think his ego is that big so much as his insecurities get the best of him, resulting in the way he often acts out.  Not surprisingly, he almost never seems to act out when around Neal Morse, obviously because Neal is more or less his musical brother and he is probably so comfortable around him that his insecurities do not get the best of him in that circumstance.

Yep, this is my Psych degree talking now. :lol :lol

In some respects, I agree that a bit of the excitement regarding behind the scenes stuff isn't the same.  No one in the band now hypes up upcoming album the way Portnoy did, but on the flip side, I was one who was sick and tired of him being the face of the band.  Nearly every interview, whether it be about a new album or a tour, was going to have to Mike Portnoy, and he was going to dominate the conversation.  That got old really fast.

Or on the behind the scenes footage we did get involved MP making a face at the camera about every 2 minutes.  That also got old fast.

Agreed.  The making of Systematic Chaos was the topper (or bottomer :lol) in that regard.   

Offline rumborak

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2015, 09:50:34 PM »
What would be exceedingly cool would be of they just let a camera running during the whole recording, and then choose one song off the new album and document its evolution, from writing to recording to mixing to mastering.
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Offline As I Am

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2015, 10:04:30 PM »
A) Why MP was right.......
1. The band has become stale and rather formulaic on the 2 most recent cd's. Neither are "bad", but neither are "great" either and both are only slight improvements from Systematic Chaos & Black Clouds.
2. From my eyes, the band seems to be just "going through the motions" on stage.
3. It is SO OBVIOUS, that their following has decreased, especially live and double especially in North America.

B) Why MP was wrong.......
1. Five years (for a band like Dream Theater) would have been a death knell.
2. IMO, the "personal issues" (James' feelings of being in the background & John Myung's introverted ways most likely would NOT have changed anyway)

I can see both sides.

I would have liked to see an 18 month break (JP, JLB & MP could've done whatever they wanted as far as side projects and tours).  Then get back together with the intention of TOPPING SFAM! I really believe it could've happened.

Just my 2 cents.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2015, 10:38:12 PM »

3. It is SO OBVIOUS, that their following has decreased, especially live and double especially in North America.



This is so not true.  Their numbers are relatively consistent.  The key exception being a rare and quite odd itinerary that put them in Ohio 3 times in a relatively short period of time which is not a strong market to begin with.  I think at one show they only brought in 700 but that was basically due to over saturation.  They would have had similar numbers in almost any state maybe with the exception of California.  Otherwise there is no evidence that their following has decreased.

Offline Darkstarshades

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2015, 10:53:24 PM »
At least here in Mexico, their popularity has increased considerably after his departure. ADTOE was highly publicized here at northern Mexico and the 2011 world tour had many more people than any of the previous MP shows.
The band opened to a very large amount of new fans after 2010 and now they're the first band many people name once someone says "Prog", along with BTB&M
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #112 on: August 14, 2015, 11:32:58 PM »
Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.

I agree. By third album he should feel comfortable to throw in any ideas without feeling like he's not a 100% contributing member.
On ADTOE he wasn't around for the writing and had just joined, so that was closer to a session drummer role, on DT12 it was his first time as part of the writing process so he was still feeling it out, but by now he's comfortable enough with the band where he shouldn't have any inhibitions.
He's not going to fill in for the same areas as Portnoy, but he has his own areas of knowledge and talent that could add something new.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #113 on: August 15, 2015, 12:41:08 AM »
From my view, I think MM's presence in the writing is already felt in the self-titled album, especially in the songs Surrender to Reason, Enigma Machine and Illumination Theory where you hear sections where the instruments go in seemingly different directions but syncing up in the end. I don't know if it's MM's direct contribution or whether the other guys are writing differently because of MM's skill of using big numbers in patterns.

Online DreamerTV

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #114 on: August 15, 2015, 04:07:02 AM »
Could DT become much bigger than what they are now (or in the Octavarium/SC era)?
No.
Have they been able to maintain that fanbase in these years without MP?
Mostly, yes.
Have been ADTOE and DT12 better, or at least on par, received than SC and BC&SL?
Generally, yes.

So, no, he was not.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #115 on: August 15, 2015, 04:43:42 AM »
For the people saying their popularity is less than it was with MP (whatever era)...



Remind me again when they got their grammy nominations?  Oh wait, never mind... I remember now.  Also, when did they headline the major festivals like this? 



Oh wait, never mind.... I remember now.

And headlining WOA, true metal stage... when was that again?  Oh wait, never mind... I remember now.

Though here's the thing... it wasn't about MP that drove their popularity (up or down), it really was RoadRunner.  Look at how their albums have charted on release.  BCSL, ADTOE, and DT12 all charted in the Top with Billboard.  None of their other albums did that.  So, MPs departure didn't have any negative effect on their popularity.  And given my above statements, I'd say it was the exact opposite, BCSL's opening chart position notwithstanding.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #116 on: August 15, 2015, 09:51:49 AM »
Remind me again when they got their grammy nominations?  Oh wait, never mind... I remember now.
Quite frankly, while those nominations came up with MM, it came from their established history. I'd even wager MP's leaving gave them a higher profile so that the Grammy people finally decided to nominate them.
 
 
Also, when did they headline the major festivals like this? 



Oh wait, never mind.... I remember now.

And headlining WOA, true metal stage... when was that again?  Oh wait, never mind... I remember now.

Though here's the thing... it wasn't about MP that drove their popularity (up or down), it really was RoadRunner.  Look at how their albums have charted on release.  BCSL, ADTOE, and DT12 all charted in the Top with Billboard.  None of their other albums did that.  So, MPs departure didn't have any negative effect on their popularity.  And given my above statements, I'd say it was the exact opposite, BCSL's opening chart position notwithstanding.
Just because they're headlining a festival doesn't mean all that much. Festivals are not about individual bands. I'd say the real proof either way is gonna be in looking at the venues and attendances for their own headlining shows (in other words, not festivals).

There is no doubt that Roadrunner has done an amazing job with promoting DT. It's probably one of the biggest reasons why they re-signed with them after they completed their 3 album deal. But that doesn't mean that their popularity may not have fallen, at least to some extent. I'm not gonna rehash the whole discussion, but here's an interesting thread talking about this very topic here:
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44162.35
Make of that what you will. In the end, I think this next tour will be very telling to see if DT is in fact increasing, maintaining or losing their fanbase.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline CrimsonSunrise

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #117 on: August 15, 2015, 11:25:59 AM »


My belief is that the strained relationship between MP and JLB had reached a point of no return. I don't think an extended break from
each other would have fixed it. They may have taken a long break only to find the dynamics of the relationships were still the same.

THIS is what I think of whenever the thought of re-unification, or the break issue in general is discussed. Now, of course I don't know shit when it comes to how interpersonal band relationships really were.  Maybe some others here are more in the know?  What I perceived, from interviews and comments, was that things were really not good between MP and JLB.  Also, it seemed that MP had issues with JM too.  IF things were as bad as that, then I doubt any amount of break time would solve anything long term.  I believe that if MP didn't leave, the band wouldn't have survived long in the form it was in.

Like many, I have pros and cons with MP leaving.

Pros

1.  The band seemed to breath a huge sigh of relief after his departure.  Could be just my perception, but that's what I saw
2.  It seemed like JLB felt he could be a true Frontman without supervision or critique, again...my perception.
3.  The 2 post MP albums were MUCH better than SC and BCSL, IMHO
4.  I feel the rebirth of JM was initiated to some degree.
5.  The guys seemed  happier on stage, especially for ADTOE tour, then they had in the last few MP tours

Cons

1.  While I love the machine that MM is, I do miss the "groove" or feeling that MP had and now seems lacking a bit in the last 2 albums.
2.  I miss the rotating setlist.  That was always one of those awesome, personal thing that MP did for us fans
3.  The Bootlegs and special shows (covers)
4.  MP had a great presence behind the kit


Overall, I think for the health of "Dream Theater" as an entity, it was best that MP moved on.

Online SwedishGoose

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #118 on: August 15, 2015, 12:24:33 PM »
When it happened I thought this might be the end of DT but now in hindsight we have got a happier DT and a happier MP who releases a lot of music.

I love ADTOE and DT12 more than the last couple of records with MP. I also think that the live shows have become better in that all members are more present, previously it was great if you were there for MP but not as good if you were there to see a band. It feels much more like a band today with more interaction between the various members on stage.

I haven't seen MP live since the split but have heard most of his releases and while not all are up my alley there are a couple of gems there.

I think MP was corrrect in that he needed a break from DT not that DT needed a break. As it turned out I think everyone is better for it...


Offline 425

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #119 on: August 15, 2015, 12:27:40 PM »
Huh?   There are 12 albums.   Understanding that a) there is no math that directly quantifies this, and b) I am not at all confusing "median" and "mean" (average), just using both concepts, I'm not at all sure how it's not reasonable to assume a rank of 9 out of 12 isn't at least "average".    And same for "5".   

Imagine that you're talking to a fan who regularly posts on "Dream Theater Forums." And then you ask this person to rank the DT albums. And they rank, say Octavarium #9 out of 12.

Technically speaking, mathematically speaking, within the context only of DT albums, this person finds Octavarium to be below average. But if you asked the same person "do you think Octavarium is a good album, an average album, or a bad album," they will probably say "a good album."

OP said that DT12 is considered an "average" effort by most of the fanbase, and my point was that even though the fans may not rank DT12 above the point that would be considered "average" within their discography, the fans probably don't find it to be an average album. I think they probably do find something like SC (#11/12) to be an "average" album.


Look, it's all subjective, but any one person's opinion is useless; it is irrelevant.  So to say "I think it's their best!" is a waste of bandwidth.  The best we have is the various means of drawing a consensus, and I think the OP is right on the mark, or at least reasonable for thinking so.

I'm not trying to make any statements about what is the best or isn't the best. But the thread that I linked to is something I did a few months back for exactly the purpose of bringing something more objective than "most people seem to be saying this" to these sorts of conversations. It's not perfect, but it's one man, one vote, which is somewhat better than just seeing what opinion seems to be posted most often. It was definitely relevant to OP, and that was my sole purpose: to provide some relevant numbers that people might be interested in seeing. I don't really get why you're attacking me so strongly over that.







I was never bothered by MP's ego.
Being a long time Nightwish fan, I think he pales in comparison to Tuomas Holopainen, lol, talk about being the "face"

Eh, but Tuomas is the genius behind Nightwish. If you take the other four away and replace them, you have something that's definitely very different than what it was before, but it would be more "Nightwish" than if you kept Emppu, Marco, Jukka and Floor and replaced Tuomas. That's not true of MP, where the rest of DT without MP is more "Dream Theater" than MP without the rest of DT.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #120 on: August 15, 2015, 12:36:58 PM »
No, he was not right, primarily because Dream Theater is not the kind of band that can disappear for 5 years or so and come back "bigger then ever" (I believe those were his words).  They are not Metallica or GnR where they can play shows after not releasing an album in over half a decade and still expect to draw in large crowds.  In my eyes, Dream Theater are in a rather precarious position with their popularity.  The current high level of interest they can command is based, in part, on the regularity of their write-record-tour schedule.  They don't have any big hits from their past on which they can rely to draw in concert attendees (when was the last time Pull Me Under got played on the radio?).

The point is, Dream Theater needs to keep their momentum going.  They spent a decade after SFAM building up their position until they reached a point when they signed with Roadrunner where they were totally in control of their own careers due to a level of popularity far greater then what music of their limited mainstream appeal would normally warrant.  But all that was dependent, in part, on releasing albums and touring on a regular basis.  Taking a 5 year break would have ruined that, and it's likely they would have lost momentum that would have taken them years to regain, if at all.

Beyond that, I have other reasons for feeling Portnoy was wrong.  In the realm of personal taste, SC and BC&SL were the two weakest albums of their career.  The lyrics and vocal melodies were becoming rather lazy and uninspired, and the inclusion of trendy "modern" metal elements, like the grunts and so on, did not fit in well with the established sound of the band.  I don't hate those records, I do enjoy them, but they are my least favourite in the entire DT discography.  The two records they have done post-MP, especially DTXII, smoked them in every possible way.

Also, I really don't see any notable decline in their album sales and concert attendance.  Since they signed to Roadrunner, all their albums have consistently sold 35 to 40 k in their first week, and based on my personal concert attendance, their crowds are as big as ever.  I do think they may have hit a bit of a plateau, though, in terms of fan base growth.  Even so, the simple fact that they have been able to get their first Grammy nomination 25 years into their career (and a second nomination for the next album after that) shows that they still have new markets to break into and new audiences they can reach.  Their growth may be slowing, but there is still further potential.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 10:44:54 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #121 on: August 15, 2015, 09:11:06 PM »
Quite frankly, while those nominations came up with MM, it came from their established history.

There is absolutely no evidence to support this other than that Mike Portnoy has mentioned it, and in my opinion, it was simply to discredit DT. 


I'd even wager MP's leaving gave them a higher profile so that the Grammy people finally decided to nominate them.
 

I wouldn't doubt that.

For the record, I think Grammys are bullshit anyway but it was good publicity for one of my favorite bands so I'm cool with it. 

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #122 on: August 15, 2015, 09:22:02 PM »
There is absolutely no evidence to support this other than that Mike Portnoy has mentioned it, and in my opinion, it was simply to discredit DT. 
Nothing in this thread really qualifies as evidence. 

Offline Darkstarshades

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #123 on: August 15, 2015, 09:57:50 PM »
While it's true that the grammy thing is BS, one can't deny the facts: DT's popularity has remained fairly consistent, if not better, since MP left.
Not to attack MP personally or to have a grudge against him, I admire the man and love his work, and his best albums with DT are better than anything that MM has done, although neither of MM's two albums are worse than MP's worst albums.
But I think that he takes DT matters too seriously, a little bit too seriously. During the months following his departure, he was ranting and angrily responding comments and posts regarding him. I can understand this, I would do the same thing, because most of these posts were intentionally misleading or provoking his answers.
But the fact that he continues to answer DT related stuff up to this day, that's not good, and I don't feel it does any good to him or his image. Check his FB page, he continues to answer DT related comments even though he doesn't really have to. And he's usually made fun of when he actually does answer, I think he should have realised that a lot of people are purposely taunting him, yet he continues to answer and telling people to go and bash DT, not him, idk, just a point of view.
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Offline Cedar redaC

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #124 on: August 15, 2015, 10:33:23 PM »
I'm happy Dream Theater kept going. When all this was going down was just before I got into them, and if they were going to be off the radar for five years, I probably would have never gotten into them or prog in general,
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #125 on: August 15, 2015, 10:35:41 PM »
There is absolutely no evidence to support this other than that Mike Portnoy has mentioned it, and in my opinion, it was simply to discredit DT. 
Nothing in this thread really qualifies as evidence.

Yes, but many things can be easily fact checked (statements in interviews, attendance numbers) but the claim I am referring to was simply ridiculous. 

Offline In The Name Of Rudess

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #126 on: August 16, 2015, 04:52:20 AM »
I think Portnoy was right. When you look at pre-8VM DT there's a band brimming with energy, trying out new stuff, making new live arrangements, having fun on stage. After 8VM it just seems like they lost that spark and people noticed. I feel like when Portnoy left they got a slight temporary boost but the overall decline has continued. They've settled into a comfort zone which gives them financial security at the expense of enthusiasm and creativity. I feel it happens to most people at some point, not just in music but in all walks of life, and they've kept it up for much longer than many people would have, so props to them for that. I think that their overall decline in performance is also mostly related to this lack of interest. Some people say that it has to do with them getting old, but I don't think age in itself is necessarily a factor. There are many performers in classical music and jazz who have kept a higher standard of performance at a much more advanced age. I mean, they're around 50, not exactly ancient. For me this is the biggest thing, I can deal with the music getting a bit stale as long as it's still good (which it is IMO) but when the performance level drops it's a bummer (mostly talking about Labrie and Petrucci here). Especially when they need to heavily overdub/autotune live releases like BTFW. I feel like they're on the home stretch and have been for some time.

Offline deslock

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #127 on: August 16, 2015, 06:06:52 AM »
Do you think the band was right to stick together, drop have Portnoy leave, find a new drummer, and carry on? Or was Portnoy on to something? Could they have used a few years off to recharge?

I've been a big DT fan since first hearing Pull me Under on the radio in 1992.

I prefer Portnoy's groove to Mangini's style, and I was stunned and saddened to learn of Portnoy's departure. Still, ADTOE is my favorite DT album (and DT12 is better than most of the Portnoy DT albums too).

Had they instead taken a break, who knows how it would've turned out? But Pertrucci and Rudess are making more consistent music without Portnoy, and I've enjoyed much of his post DT stuff too.

2.  I miss the rotating setlist.  That was always one of those awesome, personal thing that MP did for us fans

I also miss this, but it's worth noting that they did away with it on Portnoy's last Dream Theater tour (granted, that was when they opened for Iron Maiden in 2010, so it had to do with playing an abbreviated set to a larger audience).

Here's an interesting take on how it went down:
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-is-happy-to-see-avenged-sevenfold-has-blossomed-to-a-whole-new-level-following-his-departure

Quote
AVENGED SEVENFOLD guitarist Zacky Vengeance stated about being caught in the middle of the drama between Portnoy and DREAM THEATER, "It was something that we were not used to at all. We had never, ever experienced any kind of in-the-spotlight drama; we just always stay in the shadows and keep any of our personal business private. And [Mike is] a very different character — he always goes straight to fans [on] Twitter or whatever… That's how he dealt with his band, and it was new to us. We like to be in touch with our fans, but we're also very private."

He continued, "[Mike had] been talking about quitting DREAM THEATER, that he wasn't necessarily happy, and he was excited to be playing with us; we were playing huge shows and stuff. I think he got caught up in the moment, got excited. We begged him to consider what he did, because we were in no position to find a permanent replacement, because in all honesty, you can't replace Jimmy, who was our best friend — first and foremost — besides beng an amazing drummer. So it just wasn't the right time and the place. And he told us, 'Hey, I've got good news and bad news. I quit DREAM THEATER.' We were like, 'Oh, no. Well, if you're happy, then that's good.' [And he was like], 'Now I can be with you guys.' And we were like, 'That's not necessarily what we decided upon. And you should take your time and reconsider.' And he was like, 'Well, I put out my press release.' We were like, 'Dude, that's not how we do business. You should have talked to us before.' Then it was back and forth [between Mike and his former DREAM THEATER bandmates]. We were out of it; we had nothing to do with it. We were just trying to get back on our feet. So when all that was going down, it was causing us a lot of heartache, to be honest — to see our name in this drama-filled love triangle. He helped us out at a really vulnerable time, and for that we will always be extremely appreciative. But for us, we were so unstable at that point that any unneeded attention was just very harmful to us. Obviously, it didn't work out [between us and Mike], but I think it's for the best — for him and for us."

Online SwedishGoose

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #128 on: August 16, 2015, 06:50:25 AM »
Well... I love MP but I just wish he sometimes restrained himself a bit...

I remember reading that and how it confirmed the notion that he quit DT in hopes of hanging with A7X. How he then tried to get back into DT was quite pathetic....

MP "needed" or wanted a break from DT... and now I am glad it happened the way it did.

Seems like MP has learned to restrain himself a little now too l think. He seems to think a little more before "pulling the trigger" now.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #129 on: August 16, 2015, 07:53:49 AM »
Yeah it was kinda a triple whammy of bad luck for MP.

• He wanted a break from being in DT and they didn't want a break so he quit.

• Avenged Sevenfold let him go for all the drama.

• DT had already hired Mangini ( and gone through a ton of legal stuff to get him in the band ) so he couldn't re-join.


But " I already put out my press release " is still funny.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #130 on: August 16, 2015, 10:49:10 AM »
MP was still freaking out about the "press release" claim a few years after the fact when it was brought up in an interview.  He says he never put out a press release BUT to most people, an official facebook statement is essentially a press release soooooo...

Offline Stadler

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #131 on: August 17, 2015, 09:02:16 AM »
It takes two to tango, so while MP may have been the one to initiate the breakup and was certainly a major part of why the friendships fell apart, you can be sure that the rest of the band played a role as well - they just were much better at keeping their mouths shut.

This was the difference for me in where I fell as far as 'what side' I'm on. MP was a complete  :censored after he didn't get ANY of his ways. He didn't get the hiatus...he didn't get to keep drumming for AX7 and he didn't get to come back to the band when it all blew up in his face. Rather than put his ego aside and admit he was wrong right when it happen (could have actually worked for him to get back in the band) he chose to be an ignorant  :censored for the next year or so. Other than JLB defending himself (and DT) against some comment MP made.....those guys kept their mouths shut and stayed respectful about the whole thing. I lost near most of any 'respect' I had for MP due to his actions/comments in the wake of the break up. I still dig the guys drumming and buy his music (save Adrenaline Mob :tdwn) but I used to hold him in high regard (for whatever reason)....not so much anymore.

as far as the rest of the DT members 'playing a role', other than an outright non agreement to take a hiatus there is nothing that has been made public that indicates they did anything to 'drive' MP away.

Yeah, opinions, assholes, got it.  But that doesn't really seem fair.   So it's only "truth" or "relevant" if it is in the public domain?   

I think the parallels are striking, but they don't seem to get mentioned:   Mike put an option on the table. NO.  Put an alternative on the table. NO.  Put additional alternatives on the table.  NO.    He may have been a founding member, a leading member, but he is but one of five.   And while this is pure speculation, there is some evidence to support it, I think SOMETHING happened between him and JP, and he lost the swing vote.   We know for a fact that something went south with JM, we know that JLB dislikes Mike (comments in the SC doc, as well as numerous low comments after the split), so once the balance between JP and MP was altered, it was really a fait accompli.   And I can totally understand where MP is coming from; did he handle everything as perfectly as some would want?  No.  But did he handle what was likely an emotional, and on some levels a humiliating and embarrassing, situation as good as could be reasonably asked for? I think so. 

Frankly, this is not the first time (nor will it be the last) that a band has had two dynamic, strong figures that come to cross purposes, and one of them gets the "big head" that they can go it alone. 

Show pictures of 100,000 people at a festival all you want, but that - to me, don't expect others to agree - just means to me a level of "lowest common denominator" that wasn't there before.   How many of you that have that drumstick, or that signed program, or the story that "Hey, I was at that recording of Score" give a crap about how many people can cram into a stadium where ten bands are playing and one of them happens to be Dream Theater?   It's not as if they are Taylor Swift or U2 and can fill a stadium for an "Evening With..." type show.    Give me the "Prog Nation" type tour where I'm sitting in my seat waiting for the show to start and Marlene and Max walk by and wave "hi" even though they don't know me from a row of assholes but are grateful that we came to the show.   Sorry, but for all the bad words about Mike and his so-called "mouth", I've lost that, and now DT is just one of many. 

Offline As I Am

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #132 on: August 17, 2015, 09:07:37 AM »

3. It is SO OBVIOUS, that their following has decreased, especially live and double especially in North America.



This is so not true.  Their numbers are relatively consistent.  The key exception being a rare and quite odd itinerary that put them in Ohio 3 times in a relatively short period of time which is not a strong market to begin with.  I think at one show they only brought in 700 but that was basically due to over saturation.  They would have had similar numbers in almost any state maybe with the exception of California.  Otherwise there is no evidence that their following has decreased.

I report what "I" see. EVERY show I've attended since MP left (aside from 1 show on the ADTOE tour in Morristown) was WEAKLY attended!!!

Offline As I Am

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #133 on: August 17, 2015, 09:09:56 AM »
For the people saying their popularity is less than it was with MP (whatever era)...

Also, when did they headline the major festivals like this? 



Oh wait, never mind.... I remember now.


I think I see a thousand DT fans in that crowd!  ;)

Offline cramx3

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #134 on: August 17, 2015, 09:11:50 AM »

3. It is SO OBVIOUS, that their following has decreased, especially live and double especially in North America.



This is so not true.  Their numbers are relatively consistent.  The key exception being a rare and quite odd itinerary that put them in Ohio 3 times in a relatively short period of time which is not a strong market to begin with.  I think at one show they only brought in 700 but that was basically due to over saturation.  They would have had similar numbers in almost any state maybe with the exception of California.  Otherwise there is no evidence that their following has decreased.

I report what "I" see. EVERY show I've attended since MP left (aside from 1 show on the ADTOE tour in Morristown) was WEAKLY attended!!!

All 5 shows I have seen with MM have been VERY WELL attended, New York City (2), New Jersey (2), and Los Angeles (1).  One of the NJ shows was poorly attended for the venue (20,000+ venue), but still had a lot of fans for a DT show.  The lowest turn out was before MP left the band during the Prognation tours.  That was my experience.  Everywhere is different though. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #135 on: August 17, 2015, 09:13:20 AM »

But the fact that he continues to answer DT related stuff up to this day, that's not good, and I don't feel it does any good to him or his image. Check his FB page, he continues to answer DT related comments even though he doesn't really have to. And he's usually made fun of when he actually does answer, I think he should have realised that a lot of people are purposely taunting him, yet he continues to answer and telling people to go and bash DT, not him, idk, just a point of view.

And because he still answers them even though he doesn't have to, I still consider him one of my favorite musicians of all time.  I LIKE his candor, I LIKE the fact that he is willing to share info, even when that info isn't necessarily in his favor or will possibly be used as evidence against him.  I wish more musicians would do that instead of the canned, slangly responses that a lot of musicians give when pressed with a question they've heard a thousand times.   Listen to any response from Paul Stanley - whom I've met a couple times, and revere as one of my first childhood heroes - about the current state of the band and Ace/Peter.  It's always something pithy like "A band is like a hot dog; if you don't have the right mustard and relish, no one will eat it".   Or something equally as inane. 


Calvin6s

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #136 on: August 17, 2015, 09:22:27 AM »
Album sales, concert attendance, grammy nominations

None of these really have anything to do with why they parted ways, so why even make it a part of the conversation.

If you need any proof of that, I saw DT on the SFAM tour in a club and that album was one of their lowest charting.  Grammy?  Jethro Tull.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #137 on: August 17, 2015, 09:26:21 AM »
I think I see a thousand DT fans in that crowd!  ;)

The point is they are sought after and are being ASKED to play those Festivals now.
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Offline Siddhartha

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #138 on: August 17, 2015, 09:57:13 AM »
I miss Portnoy and I think DT was a better band  with him. Miss his compositions, his playing, his live energy and the contact he had with the fans.

I liked ADTOE but think DT12 is their worst album.

Live they are still a great band to see, but I hate the click. Now they lack spontaneity.

Wish he was still in the band.


Offline erwinrafael

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Re: 5 years later, was Portnoy right?
« Reply #139 on: August 17, 2015, 10:12:00 AM »
Of course it's hard not to miss MP's feel in the drums. It's basically the same for almost 20 years now.  :P