The Savatage Discography - Result and cause...

[Calvin6s]

DWD is the album where Savatage started losing me.  I still liked it, but it felt like a filler album.

[TAC]

Having my very first listen to Dead Winter Dead. Damn, this is one heck of an album. Really interesting and I think it could only get better with more listens.

Some comments.

I think with the two short instrumentals opening the album and the relatively slow This Is The Time, it feels like this album takes a while to kick in. This Is The Time feels like it'd be a great album closer.

I Am and Doesn't Matter Anyway absolutely remind me of Alice Cooper. Even King Diamond. Brings to mind Alice's Brutal Planet.

Starlight has some great guitar work and I like this track a lot.

This Isn't What We Want and M&M to me are skippable at this point. I'm sure they get better with time.

I like Memory a lot, but when DWD kicks in, although it's not a bad riff, it feels a bit chugging and sucks the energy out of Memory's grand build up. But the track turns into one big guitar-gasm.

One Child is really cool. Can't wait to dig deeper into it.

Christmas Eve/Sarajevo -Amazing. Of course I'm already familiar with this. Still cannot believe this is Savatage.

Not What You See- Not really a fan. This was the kind of shlock that kept me from getting into Savatage in the first place. Drop This Is The Time here and I'm good. Great solo though.



Though it may not happen until Christmas, I may actually pick this up. Dark Master, thanks for the inspiration to give this a listen. I enjoyed it. A little choppy at times, but pretty solid.

[wolfking]

Nice thoughts Tim.

I disagree though and always thought This is the Time was a great opener.  Good call on the songs sounding like Brutal Planet too, great Alice album.  TIWWM and M&M I thought the same thing, but they will grow for sure.  One Child is incredible and the closer is a grower too.

[The Dark Master]

Having my very first listen to Dead Winter Dead. Damn, this is one heck of an album. Really interesting and I think it could only get better with more listens.

Some comments.

I think with the two short instrumentals opening the album and the relatively slow This Is The Time, it feels like this album takes a while to kick in. This Is The Time feels like it'd be a great album closer.

I Am and Doesn't Matter Anyway absolutely remind me of Alice Cooper. Even King Diamond. Brings to mind Alice's Brutal Planet.

Starlight has some great guitar work and I like this track a lot.

This Isn't What We Want and M&M to me are skippable at this point. I'm sure they get better with time.

I like Memory a lot, but when DWD kicks in, although it's not a bad riff, it feels a bit chugging and sucks the energy out of Memory's grand build up. But the track turns into one big guitar-gasm.

One Child is really cool. Can't wait to dig deeper into it.

Christmas Eve/Sarajevo -Amazing. Of course I'm already familiar with this. Still cannot believe this is Savatage.

Not What You See- Not really a fan. This was the kind of shlock that kept me from getting into Savatage in the first place. Drop This Is The Time here and I'm good. Great solo though.



Though it may not happen until Christmas, I may actually pick this up. Dark Master, thanks for the inspiration to give this a listen. I enjoyed it. A little choppy at times, but pretty solid.

You're welcome!  I'm always more then happy to help someone get into Savatage, especially with this album. 

I've always liked "This is the Time (1990)" as the first proper song.  I felt it was a very tragic, heartfelt song, and totally set the tone for the album.  As for "Not What You See", I will admit that the first time I heard it, I was a bit underwhelmed.  I thought that other Savatage closing ballads, like "Believe" and "Alone You Breathe" were much better.  In a sense, I still do, but while those are great individual tracks, "Not What You See" is the perfect closer for the album.  More so then any other Savatage record, Dead Winter Dead is an album where the whole is greater then the sum of the parts, and it is better judged as a singular work, rather then a collection of songs.  The other Savatage rock operas (Streets, The Wake of Magellan, Poets and Madmen) all have more great individual songs, but none of those album are as impressive to me when viewed as a whole like Dead Winter Dead (although Streets comes very close).  I suspect this is why bl5150 and calvin6s don't like the album as much (in fact, bl5150 suggested as much when we were discussing Streets), but for me, albums like that are often the most rewarding to hear, once you've taken the time.

And BTW, I love Alice's Brutal Planet, too.  Awesome record, and very underrated.   

[TAC]

Well, This Is the Time is a great tune and likely works anywhere. But with it being in the 3rd position after the two intro pieces it started off feeling like a hard rock Pink Floyd album.


And while being DTF's biggest Alice Cooper fan, I am not in love with Brutal Planet. Half is really cool, and half I skip.
But it has some awesome tracks and it was an incredible tour.

[wolfking]

I'm only a casual Alice fan, so I think BP is really cool.

I do see what your saying after the intros then This is the Time, it can seem like the album takes a bit long to really get going.  Once you're use to it, I'm sure it'll grow and you'll agree it's a perfect start to the album.

[The Dark Master]

Incidentally, I just realized that I posted my write-up of Dead Winter Dead only 2 days after the album's 20th anniversary!

[TAC]

I do see what your saying after the intros then This is the Time, it can seem like the album takes a bit long to really get going. 

Yeah, that's all I'm really saying. Not a criticism, but more of just a thought.
Like as DM says, it is tragic and heartfelt, and feels like a great finale. Feels like a culmination.

[wolfking]

I do see what your saying after the intros then This is the Time, it can seem like the album takes a bit long to really get going. 

Yeah, that's all I'm really saying. Not a criticism, but more of just a thought.
Like as DM says, it is tragic and heartfelt, and feels like a great finale. Feels like a culmination.

I'm sure you'll change your mind the more you listen and get use to it.  It definitely could work as a closer too, great song.

[Lowdz]

I've always liked this album but could never get into the follow up. Maybe DM will change that for me with his write up as listening to DWD whilst reading this one brought ore life to it.

It's getting near time to be digging out those early TSO albums too. They have become. Lowdz family tradition in recent years thanks to Sarajevo.

And although Al Pitrelli is a decent guitarist he doesn't ever really stand out. I'd certainly take Criss over him, but Skolnick too, maybe even Caffery.

[The Dark Master]

So tomorrow we're going to have one last live interlude with Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins before moving on to the home stretch with The Wake of Magellan and Poets and Madmen.  The week after P&M, I also want to make a concluding post looking back at Savatage's discography as a whole and give my thoughts on 1) why the band never managed to achieve a big commercial break through, 2) the factors that lead to the band taking an indefinite hiatus after 2002, and 3) the Wacken 2015 reunion and what it means for the future of Savatage.

I'm still not certain yet as to what extent I am going to cover TSO or Jon Oliva's side projects, as I have a number of different ideas on what I want to do.  They may end up being discography threads of their own, although I do think an argument can be made that the JOP stuff could go here considering that much of the JOP material was originally written for Savatage, and that JOP was basically an erstaz Savatage from 2003-2014.

Also: in the event that Savatage does decide to record a new album, I would, after taking some time to digest the record, like to add a write-up for that album to this thread.  Of course, if such a record is to be made, we most likely won't see it for another year at least, for that is looking far into the future.  But with a lot if interesting and exciting things taking place in the Savatage camp at the moment, I would like to keep my options open in the event that there is indeed new Savatage material on the horizon.

[The Dark Master]

Live - Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins



Released   December 15, 1995
Recorded   1987 - 1990
Genre   Heavy metal
Length   63:51
Label   SPV/Steamhammer Records
Producer   Paul O'Neill

Tracklist

1. "City Beneath The Surface" – 5:39
2. "24 Hours Ago" – 4:48
3. "Legions" – 5:06
4. "Strange Wings" – 4:01
5. "Gutter Ballet" – 6:14
6. "Temptation Revelation / When The Crowds Are Gone" – 7:10
7. "Of Rage And War" – 4:29
8. "The Dungeons Are Calling" – 4:48
9. "Sirens" – 3:37
10. "Hounds" – 7:20
11. "Intro To Madness (Criss Oliva Guitar Solo)" – 1:13
12. "Hall Of The Mountain King" – 6:38
13. "Post Script" (Instrumental) – 1:42

Track 1 recorded at The Ritz in New York City, 1990
Tracks 2-4 recorded at the Spectrum, Philadelphia, 1988
Track 5 recorded at Los Angeles Palace, 1990
Track 6 recorded at Hollywood Palace, 1990
Tracks 7, 10 & 12 recorded at Lamour, Brooklyn, 1990
Tracks 8-9 recorded at Nassau Coliseum, Long Island, 1988
Track 11 recorded at Agora, Cleveland, 1987
Track 13 recorded during sound check, Hollywood Palace, 1990

Band Line-up

Lead vocals & piano: Jon Oliva
Lead guitars: Criss Oliva
Rhythm guitars: Chris Caffery
Bass guitars: Johnny Lee Middleton
Drums & percussion: Steve Wacholz

The release of Japan Live '94/Live in Japan, while certainly appreciated by Savatage fans worldwide, nevertheless raised many eyebrows.  The band captured on both film and record in that release, while certainly a talented group of musicians, was not the Savatage that many remembered.  Criss Oliva's absence was only exacerbated by Alex Skolnick's alteration of the late guitarist's epic solos.  There were also considerable issues taken with the setlist, which was, understandably, dominated by songs from the Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain albums, with only a mere four songs to represent the entirety of Savatage's 1983-1991 catalog.  And while Zak Stevens' performance was considered excellent, it was never forgotten that Jon Oliva hand sung on seven out of the nine albums that had been released prior to the making of Japan Live '94/Live in Japan.  Yet the Mountain King only lent his vocal prowess to one song on the live album, and even that track had been split with Stevens.   Japan Live '94/Live in Japan was a fine live album in it's own right, but in the eyes of many fans it was far from an adequate concert representation then what Savatage deserved.

   Perhaps in anticipation of this apparent omission of the band's classic era from Japan Live '94/Live in Japan, Savatage had prepared a second live release for late 1995.  Ostensibly intended as a tribute to the late Criss Oliva, this second (and to date final) Savatage live album was entitled Final Bell in Japan, although throughout the West it would bear the moniker Ghost in the Ruins, thus fulfilling a desire by Criss to have one of the band's albums bear the name that had at one time been proposed for the Streets record.  Ironically, however, the material selected for the release included nothing from the Streets era at all, and was entirely taken from the band's 1987-88 and 1989-1990 tours for Hall of the Mountain King and Gutter Ballet, respectively.

   In contrast to Japan Live '94/Live in Japan, which had captured a band during a difficult period of transitory rosters in the wake Criss Oliva's death, as well as Steve Wacholz's departure and Jon Oliva's adaption of a more supportive role while Zak took over frontman duties,  Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins would offer a retrospective vision of the band in what many had considered to be the prime of their careers.  Jon and Criss Oliva and Steve Wacholz were all back in their traditional roles along side Chris Caffery and Johnny Lee Middleton.  Beyond the radically different lineup present on the record, though, there is a noticeably different tone in the performances on Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins compared to those on Japan Live '94/Live in Japan.  The band from 1987-90 was much more aggressive and energetic then that from 1994.  It must of course be mentioned that this is in part a result of the setlist, as the former featured a much more extensive selection from the band's more metal early days.  But even taking into account the presence of songs such as "City Beneath the Surface" and "Legions", one cannot help but sense an enthusiasm on Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins that was simply nonexistent on Japan Live '94/Live in Japan.  The reason for all this excess of youthful energy goes beyond the simple disparity of maturity between the two periods of Savatage, but also to their emotional state.  The band in  1987-90 had been in their prime and experiencing their first real commercial success, whereas the band from 1994 was reeling from the loss of a beloved bandmate and was essentially in mourning.

   Of course, maturity has benefits of it's own.  In particular, the performances on  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan were noticeably more polished and, for want of a better word, more professional.  The band on Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins,  being younger and far more reckless, were less concerned with theatrical presentation then they were with rocking as loud as possible.  This is most apparent on the more mellow tracks, especially "Gutter Ballet" and "Temptation Revelation/When the Crowds Are Gone".  The tempo of these songs seems somewhat rushed, possibly as a result of all that excess energy.  While this increased pace is a welcome element in songs like "Hall of the Mountain King", it is something of a detriment to tracks like "Gutter Ballet", which lacks much of the dramatic build up present on the Japan Live '94/Live in Japan version.

   Obviously, the two main selling points on this record are hearing the Oliva brothers together at the forefront of the band's sound, and it is here that Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins really shines.  Jon's siren shrieks from the days of yore sound as fresh and awe-inspiring as ever, while Criss' immaculate soloing runs wild all over the album.  In particular, both "Hall of the Mountain King" and "Hounds" stand as prime examples of the sheer metal mastery that the Olivas could bring to bear in the live setting.  Some impatience on the ballads is easily forgiven in light of the excellence of the heavier cuts.  "Hall of the Mountain King" and "Sirens" compares quite favourably to their  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan counterparts, reinforcing the assertion that these songs are best served with Jon Oliva on vocals.  With all due respect of Zak, a formidable metal singer in his own right, some Savatage songs were just meant for Jon's voice.  For the Criss Oliva fan, there is plenty of shred here to enjoy, but perhaps his finest moments on  Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins are his two solo spots; his intro to "Hall of the Mountain King", and "Post Script", the latter recorded over sound-check and seeing it's first, and only release, here on Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins.

   One side benefit of  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan and Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins being from radically different eras of the band is that there is very little overlap in the setlist, with only "Sirens", "Hall of the Mountain King" and "Gutter Ballet" appearing on both releases.  For those who enjoy all eras of the band, it is entirely possible to compose a setlist combining the best of both release with relatively little left out.  In that sense, Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins perhaps serves best as a companion as well as a counterpoint to  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan, Savatage's two live releases between them covering almost every possible musical angle of a band with a notably diverse and complex discography.  Between the two live albums, Savtage managed perfectly so sum up everything they were prior to Dead Winter Dead, an album that saw at last the solidification of an entirely new lineup.  As the new band forged ahead, they saw fit to pay homage to their previous incarnations and former bandmates with two shining examples of live performance mastery.  Personal preference aside, if there are any complaints to be made of Savatage's live releases, it is only that they are so few in number.

[wolfking]

Brilliant live album this.  Every Savatage fan needs it.  Brilliant performances on every song.

I never had a problem with the set for Japan 94 either, I think it flowed well.

[jjrock88]

Brilliant live album this.  Every Savatage fan needs it.  Brilliant performances on every song.

I never had a problem with the set for Japan 94 either, I think it flowed well.

agreed

[Lowdz]

I bought this years ago but have hardly ever played it. Not sure why. I used to love live albums but went off them in the 90s.

[TAC]

I have a hard time with live albums that are mashups of so many different shows.

[wolfking]

I have a hard time with live albums that are mashups of so many different shows.

I get that and share the same thinking, but to me on this one it doesn't really make a difference, it's so good.

[bl5150]

Live albums have never been my thing for the most part..........might have this somewhere but can't remember playing it.  Even my Top 10 bands I don't bother     Will give DM's post a good read shortly though.

[wolfking]

There's some amazing performances on this one boys.

[The Dark Master]

Yeah, I apologize if I didn't praise the album enough in my write-up (I was having kind of a "bleh" day when I wrote it), but it really is a solid live album.  Aside from the slightly sped up tempo of the ballads, which was really just a minor nitpick of mine, my only complaint with the record was the lack of any material from the Streets tour.  Between the two live albums we only have one track from Streets, which was, IMO, their strongest album from 1983-1994, so the the lack of live recordings of Streets tracks is a shame.  But other wise, everything about Final Bell/Ghost of the Ruins is amazing.  Especially the book ends, "City Beneath the Surface" and "Hall of the Mountain King".  As wolfking said, there are some excellent live performances captured on that record.

[TAC]

(I was having kind of a "bleh" day when I wrote it),

Yeah, I could tell. Only 10,000 words in that post!

[wolfking]

(I was having kind of a "bleh" day when I wrote it),

Yeah, I could tell. Only 10,000 words in that post!

Was about to post pretty much the same thing. 

[jjrock88]

(I was having kind of a "bleh" day when I wrote it),

Yeah, I could tell. Only 10,000 words in that post!

Was about to post pretty much the same thing. 

[The Dark Master]

(I was having kind of a "bleh" day when I wrote it),

Yeah, I could tell. Only 10,000 words in that post!

Was about to post pretty much the same thing. 

There is that.  There is also the fact that, to be honest, I didn't really have much to say about either live album.  I enjoy them both, but neither really strikes me as a classic live album comparable to, say, Deep Purple's Made in Japan. Plus the story of Savatage is mostly told in their studio releases.  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan had a bit more going on behind the scenes because it very much marked the end of an era, but Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins seemed more like an obligatory release, almost as if the band felt they needed to have a live album with Jon on vocals, Criss on guitar, and Wacholz on drums.  I'm not saying I don't appreciate it; there are some excellent live cuts off that record, but given Savatage's apparent dislike of live albums in general, I can't help but feel that the band themselves consider these releases to be little more then appendices.

It's a shame, too, because I've seen and heard a lot of Savatage live bootlegs over the years, and they had some awesome shows that really should have been seen the light of day.

[wolfking]

but Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins seemed more like an obligatory release, almost as if the band felt they needed to have a live album with Jon on vocals, Criss on guitar, and Wacholz on drums.

I think this is the case too.

I believe if Criss didn't pass away, a thought out and planned live album would have happened soon enough.  It would have been something the band would have put a lot of effort in I believe.  Probably even the tour for the album after Edge of Thorns.

[TAC]

I find it amazing that bands simply do not have a number of shows in the can.

[wolfking]

I find it amazing that bands simply do not have a number of shows in the can.

With the amount of touring the band did back in the day, I agree. 

Did bands not record and listen back to their performances for tweaking or rehearsal purposes I wonder?  I guess a band like Savatage were too into the party scene and their chops were good enough anyway.

[The Dark Master]

It is my understanding that, at least once Paul entered the picture, Savatage recorded everything, especially their live shows, and have it all sitting in a vault somewhere.  Ever since Poets and Madmen, Jon has occasionally mentioned releasing more live albums and concert videos.  He actually wanted to do a Savatage/JOP live combo pack back in 2010 or 2011 that would have featured a lot of archived footage of the band from various periods, as well as recordings of JOP from their Festival tour.  Unfortunately, the JOP footage was all recorded digitally and became corrupted, so that release was cancelled, and all that unseen Savatage live material went back into the vaults.

[wolfking]

That release would have been amazing.

[Kwyjibo]

Dead Winter Dead

While this is certainly a good record it doesn't grab me as other Savatage albums do. I can't decide if the story is heartfelt and emotional or outright cheesy kitsch. I like the more rocking tracks but overall this isn't my favorite release.

And regarding Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24):

However, I do think Savatage had a decent shot at a big hit in 1995, and here's why:

As it was, the song did rather well, even in 1995.  It tends to get overlooked, but  "Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)" did get a decent amount of airplay when released as Savatage.  Part of the problem, I think, is that aside from the resistance that some more mainstream radio stations displayed against playing music from an 80's metal band, there was also the fact that Savatage was completely unprepared to support it as a single.

If they had promoted that single properly and it had became a bigger hit for Savatage, I'm not sure if this hadn't backfired on them in the long run. The song Christmas Eve is like nothing they have done before and is more of an atypical Savatage song. So there would be a lot of people who are surprised/shocked/disappointed when they hear the rest of Savatage's music. It's like "More Than Words" and Extreme. Everybody wanted to hear that song but nobody wanted to hear what they normally do.

Ghost In The Ruins

This is a good live album and a good supplement to Japan live. It's more rough sounding but has more energy and you don't really hear the fact that it is pieced together from different concerts. The only complaint is, that it should have contained songs from Streets to cover all the records with Criss.

[The Dark Master]

If they had promoted that single properly and it had became a bigger hit for Savatage, I'm not sure if this hadn't backfired on them in the long run. The song Christmas Eve is like nothing they have done before and is more of an atypical Savatage song. So there would be a lot of people who are surprised/shocked/disappointed when they hear the rest of Savatage's music. It's like "More Than Words" and Extreme. Everybody wanted to hear that song but nobody wanted to hear what they normally do.

True, but that is usually the case when a non-mainstream band finally breaks big anyways.  Just look at Metallica.  The Black Album was hardly typical of what Metallica had been up to that point (it was, in many ways, a complete 180 turn from where they had been going musically before then), and songs like "Enter Sandman" and "Nothing Else Matters" were far from what most had grown to expect from Metallica songs by 1991.  That stylistic disparity did not prevent the Black Album from blowing up, although it did create a great dividing line between "old" and "new" Metallica albums, and "old" and "new" fans as well, so much so that people who got into Metallica because of the Black Album had a difficult time appreciating the records Metallica had made prior to 1991.

Had  "Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)" become a massive hit as Savatage, I suspect the band would have gone down much the same musical road they did with TSO.  TSO may not have even existed; they may have just called everything Savtage.  The TSO albums would probably have been somewhat different; Jon and Zak would have split most (or all, if it had just been Savatage) of the lead vocals, and the music in general probably would have been noticeably heavier and more metal.  Conversely, Poets and Madmen and, to a lesser extent, The Wake of Magellan, would probably have featured more neoclassical instrumentals, and would have made more references to classical music in their songs.  But overall, I think the general style that Savatage/TSO took after Dead Winter Dead would have been the same as it was anyways. 

While all that would have created a disparity between old and new fans, the truth of the matter is such an disparity already existed.  Many of Savatage's older and more metal fans eventually grew tired rock operas and albums dominated by ballads and counterpoint vocals.  Conversely, many people who became fans because of TSO and the later Savatage albums found the band's older records difficult to stomach.  Even without  "Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)" becoming a massive hit under the name Savatage, the fanbase was still split due to the band's musical style becoming nearly unrecognizable by 1995 anyways.  Commercial success or not, Savatage faced an increasingly divided fanbase by the end of the 1990's, a situation which, given their lack of such success, made their position extremely precarious, and was most likely a major factor that tipped the scales in favour of TSO.

[jjrock88]

A more metal TSO with Zak and Jon singing would have been right up my alley and increased my interest in TSO 100X more

[wolfking]

A more metal TSO with Zak and Jon singing would have been right up my alley and increased my interest in TSO 100X more

Same.  I'm not big into TSO at all.

[Calvin6s]

A more metal TSO with Zak and Jon singing would have been right up my alley and increased my interest in TSO 100X more

Same.  I'm not big into TSO at all.

Me either, and it is strange that I'm not.  I absolutely loved Sarajevo, Chance, the instrumental flourishes of Savatage.  If TSO hadn't come about, I'd probably wish they created something like it.

But once it came out, I rushed out to buy the first CD and first DVD.  I liked it then, but I quickly became bored with it.  Nothing they did wrong.  Everything they did was basically right.  It is just that it needed to come out 5 years earlier to line up with my fascination with metal orchestra.  By the time it finally came out, I was kind of getting over my classical fascinations.

[The Dark Master]

Ah, see classical is one of my main musical loves, next to metal, so for me, something like TSO was heaven, especially considering that it was made by a duo of such talented composers as Jon and Paul.  That being said, I do feel that Savatage had pretty much perfected their symphonic rock opera sound on Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan.  While TSO retains much of that style, the overall lighter approach taken by TSO verses DWD/TWOM has always left me wishing that TSO had a bit more "oomph" in their music.  Likewise, while TSO has worked with many amazing singers over the years, I have always felt that they already had a perfect balance of lead vocals with Jon and Zak.  In short, while I love the TSO records, I do sometimes wish that they had just been Savatage albums.

Anyways, I'm going to try to post the  write-up for The Wake of Magellan today, although I may not be able to do so until rather late, or possibly sometime tomorrow.  Regardless, I plan on posting the write-up for Poets and Madmen next week.  The week after that I am going to make my concluding post, giving an overview of the Savatage discography as a whole, exploring why Savatage was never able to break through to a bigger audience, the factors that caused Jon to put the band on hiatus in 2003, and my thoughts on the Wacken 2015 reunion and the future of Savatage.

And again, thank you all for your enthusiasm and support in this thread!