Author Topic: The Savatage Discography - Result and cause...  (Read 37350 times)

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Calvin6s

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #315 on: November 09, 2015, 10:10:15 AM »
Something that probably hurt Savatage, for me, was ........ Dream Theater.  Before my DT 1992 discovery, Savatage was probably the band that hit my strongest musical desires (of the time).  But Savatage remained significant because Criss Oliva's contributions.  They were unique.  A cross between the technicality of Petrucci but the feel and dynamics of people like Lynch and even off kilter groove rhythms of Dimebag.  And when you combined it with the songcraft of Jon and Paul, it had its own niche.  When Criss left, that formula lost a vital ingredient.

Paul and Jon had the songcraft and pomposity, but Criss had the musicality.

And I agree that a heavier TSO would probably speak to me more.

Offline jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #316 on: November 09, 2015, 12:25:42 PM »
But then again if they catered to us few for a heavier TSO, I think they wouldn't have been nearly as successful. So the formula they came up with, I think they made the right decision.

I've seen TSO live on two occasions and without question, they come off much better in a live setting. One of the coolest shows I've ever seen.

Great job again DM!

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #317 on: November 09, 2015, 01:53:56 PM »
But then again if they catered to us few for a heavier TSO, I think they wouldn't have been nearly as successful. So the formula they came up with, I think they made the right decision.

I've seen TSO live on two occasions and without question, they come off much better in a live setting. One of the coolest shows I've ever seen.

Great job again DM!

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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #318 on: November 09, 2015, 03:55:06 PM »
Ok so a couple things:

First of all, The Wake of Magellan write-up is finished, but I'm not entirely happy with it, so I'm going to take some time to revise it.  I will post it either tonight before I go to sleep or sometime tomorrow.

Secondly, I'm not entirely certain I can commit to making discography threads for TSO and JOP at the moment.  There are several reasons for this, including other commitments that I have been neglecting while running the Savatage discography that now demand my time.  More importantly, though, this entire Savatage discography project has been very rewarding for me, but also very draining, and once I am done with Savatage, I will definitely need a break. 

Furthermore, with the possibility of a new chapter in the future of Savatage as of the time of writing, I want to wait and see how the band moves forward before deciding how exactly I will approach their side projects if I do indeed choose to cover them.  While I love TSO and JOP each in their own way, neither of them completely fills the void that Savatage left behind.  My views of these projects may change if Savatage does indeed release a new record, so I want to see how the current situation develops before I decide whether or not I wish to make discography threads for those bands.

Ultimately, though, as I approach the end of Savatage's discography, it has come to dawn on me that I may not have the passion to cover those bands as thoroughly as I have Savatage.  While part of this is musically related, as neither of them really capture quite the same feeling as Savatage, part of it is also historical as well.  Simply put, the story of Savatage, when laid out in full, is rather unique, and I am not certain if I have the level of interest necessary to give TSO or JOP the same loving treatment that I have Savatage.

If anyone would like for me to do discography threads for either of those bands, just let me know.  I may be open to such possibilities in the future.  But at the moment, I feel that once I have finished Savatage, I will need to take a long break before taking on another discography again.

And again, thank you all for your interest in this thread.   ;)

Calvin6s

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #319 on: November 09, 2015, 04:03:17 PM »
I think you will be able to put more energy into the final Savatage album write ups if you see that finish line, so I support your decision to stop (or at least take a hiatus).  I look forward to the final write ups as I paid less attention to Savatage at the end, so I will probably learn the most.  The prior records were all about sharing experiences for me.  Now I'm more in observe mode.

But your write ups and obvious research are appreciated.

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #320 on: November 09, 2015, 06:02:38 PM »
And again, thank you all for your interest in this thread.   ;)
Thank you for making it interesting.

No issue here stopping at Savatage proper.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
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Offline Cyclopssss

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #321 on: November 10, 2015, 05:20:05 AM »
Thank you, DM, for probably the most thourough and indepth discography I've read on here.  :hefdaddy
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #322 on: November 10, 2015, 09:15:06 AM »
   Part 11 – There are wounds that bleed inside us...



Released   September 15, 1997 (Europe, Japan)
April 7, 1998 (U.S.)
Genre   Progressive metal, Symphonic metal, Power metal
Length   60:06
Label   Atlantic
Producer   Paul O'Neill

Tracklist:

1.   "The Ocean" (Instrumental)   Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   1:33
2.   "Welcome"     Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   2:11
3.   "Turns to Me"     Paul O'Neill, Jon Oliva, Al Pitrelli   6:01
4.   "Morning Sun"     Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill, Chris Caffery   5:49
5.   "Another Way"     Paul O'Neill, Jon Oliva, Al Pitrelli   4:35
6.   "Blackjack Guillotine"     Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill, Chris Caffery   4:33
7.   "Paragons of Innocence"     Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   5:33
8.   "Complaint in the System (Veronica Guerin)"     Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   2:37
9.   "Underture" (Instrumental)   Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   3:52
10.   "The Wake of Magellan"     Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill, Chris Caffery, Johnny Lee Middleton   6:10
11.   "Anymore"     Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   5:16
12.   "The Storm" (Instrumental)   Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill   3:45
13.   "The Hourglass"     Paul O'Neill, Jon Oliva, Al Pitrelli   8:05

All lyrics and poetry by Paul O'Neill

Band Lineup:

Zachary Stevens – lead vocals
Jon Oliva – lead vocals (featured on "Another Way" and "Paragons of Innocence"), keyboards
Chris Caffery – guitars, backing vocals
Al Pitrelli – guitars, backing vocals
Johnny Lee Middleton – bass guitar, backing vocals
Jeff Plate – drums

   In the aftermath of Dead Winter Dead, Savatage found themselves in a very odd position.  Overseas, particularly in Europe, their popularity had grown by leaps and bounds, and the band was rapidly becoming one of the most highly respected metal acts among the global metal community.  Conversely, their success in America had been middling at best, due to the vicissitudes of popular taste in the States and the inability of the band to capitalize on “Christmas Eve Sarajevo (12/24)” as a hit single in 1995.  Savatage's lack of success in their home country was offset somewhat by using “Christmas Eve Sarajevo (12/24)” to launch a new side project, Trans-Siberian Orchestra, in 1996, with the debut album eventually going triple platinum in the USA alone.  This success, however, had largely come at the expense of supporting Savatage in the States.  Not only would “Christmas Eve Sarajevo (12/24)” become more strongly associated with TSO then Savatage, thus depriving the band of one of their biggest radio hits, but Savatage had neglected to tour America in order to record TSO's first album.  With TSO selling millions of records, and with a Savatage song no less, it seemed the band's days as Savatage were numbered.

   Despite all this, Jon and Paul had no intention of laying Savatage to rest.  TSO was as of yet a studio only project, and a seasonal one at that.  There was no guarantee that anyone would be interested in seeing TSO perform live, or hearing anything other than Christmas music from the group.  Above all else, there was no way of knowing how long the success of “Christmas Eve Sarajevo (12/24)” would last; the song could ultimately prove to be a fluke; TSO could be a one-hit-wonder.  If Savatage had been mothballed in 1997 and TSO had failed, the band would have been left with no alternative.  At least for the moment, it appeared prudent to keep Savatage active, and continue to support the band's budding popularity worldwide.  This decision was questioned by many, including the label heads at Atlantic, who were impatient for TSO's follow-up record, and eagerly wanted that project's momentum to continue.  Oliva and O'Neill would find their relationship with Atlantic increasingly strained as the label proved reluctant to allocate further resources to Savatage when the promise of a new TSO album loomed on the horizon.

   For the album that was to follow Dead Winter Dead, the band elected to remain within much the same musical territory they had established on the previous record.  The new album would be another sweeping rock opera, with complex vocal arrangements and majestic orchestration throughout.  Paul O'Neill had written another concept, this time about a Spanish sailor reflecting upon a rough lifetime at sea.  The concept would cover a wide range of themes such as life and death and the moral choices one is forced to make in extreme situations, and would be based in part on real life events such as the Maresk Dubai incident.  The story for the new record was exceedingly intricate and convoluted, so much so that none of the actual band members proved capable of providing an adequate summary.       

   Musically, the album that became The Wake of Magellan would not deviate far from the style of Dead Winter Dead.  In fact, the only significant difference between the two would be an overall warmer tone for The Wake of Magellan, as opposed the appropriate coolness of Dead Winter Dead, and a somewhat more guitar-oriented sound.  On the whole, however, the similarities between the two far outweighed the differences.  The Wake of Magellan could in many ways be considered a musical counterpart to Dead Winter Dead, occupying the same musical ground, but offering it's own distinct flavour and perspective on the rock opera format.  The album's overall structure closely followed that of the previous album, and the record that became The Wake of Magellan was in many ways the twin of Dead Winter Dead.  The homogeneity between Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan was doubtlessly in part a result of the fact that, for the first time since The Dungeons are Calling, a Savatage record would feature the same line-up, producer, and record label as it's predecessor, thus providing Savatage at long last with a degree of stability.

   A perfect example of this “same, but different” approach is apparent in the album's first three tracks.  The opener, “The Ocean”, starts with the gentle sound of waves to set the mood before being joined by a delicate piano melody and, eventually, a driving guitar, bass and drum rhythm.  This ethereal introductory track is a stark contrast to the bombastic “Overture” from the previous album.  While The Wake of Magellan opens on a comparatively mellow note, the bombast is brought forth on the second track, “Welcome”, this album's equivalent of the storyteller's introduction “Sarajevo” from Dead Winter Dead.  Whereas “Sarajevo” had been the softer track on Dead Winter Dead, “Welcome” is grand and epic, with big power chords and choral vocals fronted by Zak's majestic leads.  And while the first proper song from Dead Winter Dead, “This is the Time (1990)”, had been a ballad, the first proper song on The Wake of Magellan is an upbeat symphonic rocker.  “Turns To Me” starts out softly enough, but before long it explodes into an orchestral metal onslaught.  Zak beautifully segues from the heavier to lighter parts of the song with a deft grace while the band drives the listener forward with intense riffage.  The melding of rock guitars and orchestra is very regal as Savatage approaches their symphonic metal transcendence.

   The next track, “Morning Sun”, alternates between a relaxed, laid back acoustic guitar melody with Zak gently crooning overhead for the verses, and a hard hitting, metal assault for the chorus.  Incredibly catchy, “Morning Sun” is easily one of the album's more memorable tracks, the juxtaposing of lighter and heaver parts never jarring, but expertly woven together to form a cohesive whole.  The ultra-symphonic metal chords that underlay the guitar solo section add a considerable amount of regal power, the enormous sound that Savatage had so perfected on the last album very much utilized here, and with great effect.  As with Dead Winter Dead, the first half of The Wake of Magellan features two tracks sung by Jon Oliva.  The first, “Another Way”, is one of the albums more metal songs, with an intricate riff and some rather aggressive vocal work by the Mountain King himself, and also adds some old school Hammond organ to Savatage's distinctive flavour of symphonic metal. 

   The album's ballsier section continues on full tilt on the following track, “Blackjack Guillotine”.  Sung by Zak, “Blackjack Guillotine” is in many ways a musical continuation of “Another Way”.  A mean riff accompanied by epic orchestration serves as a bed for some of Zak's most aggressive vocals as he delivers a broadside of rapid-fire lyricism.  The track's highlight, however, is the complete shredfest that makes up it's rideout, with Caffery and Pitrelli splitting guitar duties on a fast riff and some virtuosic soloing.  A swinging piano leads into a groovy bass and guitar riff for the next track “Paragons of Innocence”.  The second track fronted by Jon Oliva on The Wake of Magellan, “Paragons of Innocence” utilizes a considerable degree of Jon's vocal prowess.  The Mountain King slides back and forth between Alice Cooper-esque smoother parts in the lower registers, and some rather aggressive metal sections that allow Jon to really bring forth the spit and grit of his metal side, particularly in the rapidly repeating lines of the middle section, with Jon Oliva proving just how well his vocal stamina has recovered since the Streets era.  One odd little curiosity on the album is a new piano driven section that fades out this track.  Sounding like the beginning of an entirely new song, the brief melody merely serves as the coda of “Paragons of Innocence” and closes out the first half of the album.

   At the midway point in the record, some rather atonal piano introduces the listener to one of the more unique Savatage songs. “Complaint in the System (Veronica Guerin)”.  With its offbeat riffage, Zak's near rapping vocals and some very strange mechanical effects, this is easily one of the more bizarre songs in the Savatage discography.  The song is oddly catchy, but far from everyone's taste.  Impressively for a band who throughout their careers broke down many musical barriers, “Complaint in the System (Veronica Guerin)” could very well be the most experimental thing Savatage have ever done.  Whether or not the experienced Savatage fan will like it is another matter entirely.

   Far more traditional is the instrumental on the record, “Underture”.  Beginning with some signature Jon Oliva piano set to the sounds of ocean waves, The Wake of Magellan's equivalent of “Mozart and Madness” soon gives way to epic symphonic metal.  The rising and falling of the guitars and orchestra very much mimics the roiling of the seas as metal band and orchestra play back and forth in a musical storm.  The track serves and an introduction to one of the standout songs on the album, the title track.  Over a very groovy syncopated bass and drum beat, Zak delivers some of Paul's most poignant lyricism with a majestic grace.  After the second regal chorus, the song explodes into one of Savatage's best post-Criss Oliva solo sections, the interplay between Caffery, Pitrelli and orchestra full of all the pomp and bombast Savatage can muster.  The third chorus to “The Wake of Magellan” sets up the album's first counterpoint vocal section.  The sheer density of lyricism here is mind-boggling, made all the more impressive the breathtaking amount of vocal lines layered one atop the other in a massive wall of sound.  Certainly one of the record's most memorable tracks, “The Wake of Magellan” would go on to become the album's signature song, and would remain a fixture of Savatage setlists in their twilight years.  It has remained a constant in the setlists for Zak Steven's Circle II Circle ever since.

   Thus far, The Wake of Magellan has proven to be much more of a metal album then its ballad heavy predecessor.  In the aftermath of the epic title track, Savatage brings forth the records’, first, and only, ballad.  “Anymore” provides the listener a moment to take a break from the bombast, although the song still has all the Broadway pomp one has come to expect from Savatage by this point, and is very reminiscent of a TSO track.  “Anymore” picks up a bit toward the end, reprising some of the grandiose symphonic metal melodies from “Underture” before quietly drawing to a conclusion. “Anymore” is followed by the album's third instrumental, and one of Savatage's best.  Filling the daunting shoes of the legendary “Christmas Eve Sarajevo (12/24)”, “The Storm” quite respectably rises to the challenge.  One of the most emotional instrumentals of the band's career, “The Strom” sees Pitrelli cutting loose with some of the best shred to be found on a later era Savatage album.

   At long last, the album reaches the grand finale.  Clocking in a eight minutes in length, “The Hourglass” is by far the most epic track Savatage had made up to 1997.  The band throws in all they have into this one track, and every trick Savatage has up their sleeves is brought to bear in “The Hourglass”.  The vocals and orchestration is this song are by far the most ambitious Savatage have attempted to date, and proves just how much the band can accomplish with an only six member band.  Once again a broadside of vocal cannons are laid upon the listener as Savatage rises to giddy heights of Broadway-tinged symphonic metal rock opera magnificence.  The song builds and builds to it's inevitable, majestic climax before ending on a softer note, Zak's gentle vocals and Jon's delicate piano closing out Savatage's eleventh album in understated style.

   Of interest to the hardcore Savatage fans is the track “Voyage”.  An acoustic guitar instrumental somewhat similar to “Silk and Steel”, it was written by Al Pitrelli during The Wake of Magellan era, but was unused on the album, finally appearing on the Japanese compilation The Best and the Rest.  Masterfully crafted, the track would have served as a nice post script to The Wake of Magellan had it been included on the album proper.

   Savatage opted not to record a music video for The Wake of Magellan, making it the first album since the band had joined forces with Paul O'Neill back in 1987 to not be promoted by an accompanying video.  This decision was most likely made due to the difficulties Savatage had experienced in getting MTM to play the videos for “Handful of Rain” and “One Child”.  “Turns to Me” was ultimately selected as the lead single to promote the album, but the days of Savatage music videos had apparently reached their end.

    Even moreso then Dead Winter Dead, The Wake of Magellan would draw a great dividing line through the Savatage fanbase.  For the band's younger and more progressively inclined fans, as well as their European and other audiences overseas, The Wake of Magellan would mark an apotheosis for Savatage as their popularity soared to unimaginable heights and the  band could now command the respect reserved for heavy metal's most elite.  But for Savatage's older and more metal fans, The Wake of Magellan would be the last straw. Their patience stretched to the limit by rock operas and symphonic dabblings, the metal purists among the Savatage faithful had finally reached their breaking point.  Savatage had grown so far beyond their roots, they were now completely unrecognizable.  The band found themselves in the uncomfortable position of have to choose between whether to cater to their older, more metal oriented fans or their newer fans of symphonic metal opera.

   Nowhere was this problem more pronounced then in America, where The Wake of Magellan had failed to make even the modest impact of Dead Winter Dead.  The record's miserable performance in their home country was in part a result of the band having neglected the American market during the Dead Winter Dead tour, in part a result of Atlantic's loss of interest in Savatage in the wake of TSO's success, in part a result of The Wake of Magellan's American release being pushed back a full seven months after its initial debut in Japan (with many American fans opting to buy the import rather than wait for a domestic release), and in part a result of the division between the older and newer fans.  Savatage now found themselves in a most precarious position.  Their overseas support was strong, but their domestic fanbase was wavering, and their fans have become sharply divided.  And all the while, the greater success of TSO beckoned...

   The Wake of Magellan would be the final Savatage album released by Atlantic Records.  With Savatage struggling in America while TSO was selling millions, the label proved unwilling to provide the new album with the adequate amount of promotional support as they waited for the second TSO record.  This state of affairs particularly upset Jon Oliva, who expressed his displeasure at the lack of effort Atlantic had put into promoting the record.  While Savatage technically owed one more album to Atlantic on their ten record deal, the band was able to negotiate a release from their contract on the condition that Atlantic keep TSO.  For their twelfth record, Savatage would be seeking greener pastures elsewhere.

   While doing promotional interviews for The Wake of Magellan, the band was asked what fans could expect of Savatage in the future.  Jon Oliva and Chris Caffery replied that Savatage was content with their current musical direction and lineup, and that fans could expect more rock operas, more dual vocals, and more symphonic instrumentals on the next album.  After years of constant stylistic evolutions and rotating lineups, Savatage finally appeared to have reached a state of stability.  But appearances were deceptive.  The stability the band had enjoyed in the mid and late 1990's was not to last.  As TSO jumped from strength to strength with each successive album, Savatage was about to undergo a new round of roster changes which would fatally undermine the band's sense of camaraderie.  Consequently, the musical blueprint established on Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan that had proven so popular with overseas fans could not be maintained.  The next album, while not a complete departure from previous records, would nevertheless deviate quite far from what fans had come to expect of Savatage by 2001, and the process of making the album would prove the band’s greatest trial since Handful of Rain.  When the dust had cleared, Jon Oliva would be left exhausted and disillusioned, and ready to leave Savatage limbo for over a decade as he rediscovered himself as a songwriter under his own name...
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 05:52:21 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline Lowdz

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #323 on: November 10, 2015, 09:56:49 AM »
I never really connected with WoM, but it's been years since I played it. Will give it another go.

I never connected with the concept particularly and the Veronice Guerin track lost me.

The guitar playing, riffs and solos had become fairly boring to me after the death of Criss and it's not my favourite period of Savatage. Pitrelli is a very good player, but nothing about his playing stands out to me.

Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #324 on: November 10, 2015, 10:13:21 AM »
I just recently started listening to Savatage. A friend showed me Edge of Thorns. Great band. Will follow this, even if it's nearly over, given that Poets and Madmen is the only album I actually own right now. Amazing band.

Offline T-ski

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #325 on: November 10, 2015, 10:43:28 AM »
I think WoM is better than DWD. 

Too bad is didn't connect with an audience.
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Offline Deathless

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #326 on: November 10, 2015, 10:46:55 AM »
I'm with T-Ski, I listened to both albums recently and I found WoM to be much stronger than DWD. The flow was better and it felt like it had more pop for the most part.

Thank you to DM for another fantastic write-up as well.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 10:54:57 AM by Deathless »

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #327 on: November 10, 2015, 11:58:24 AM »
DM,

Thanks for all the fun write-ups. I've been away for a while and unable to respond to each new update, but I have been able to keep up with the reading. I really appreciate and have enjoyed your efforts.

Yeah, I also connect with WoM better than with DWD. "Morning Sun" in particular is fantastic!
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Calvin6s

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #328 on: November 10, 2015, 12:38:36 PM »
The four songs I have marked in my library are:
Another Way
Paragons of Innocence
Complaint in the System
Underture

That run is pretty good and more or less makes the album a keeper.  3 years earlier, I discovered Shadow Gallery and The Wake of Magellan's cover really made me think of that album again ... so there is always a strange connection between the two for me.

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #329 on: November 10, 2015, 04:55:41 PM »
I really like this one.  I toss up which one I prefer out of DWD and this.

Turns To Me, Morning Sun, the title track and The Storm are my favs.  The title track is one of the bands best songs from any era.
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Offline bl5150

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #330 on: November 10, 2015, 05:08:59 PM »

Turns To Me, Morning Sun, the title track and The Storm are my favs. 

Sub in Another Way for TWOM and that's the tracks I have marked as favourites........on my last listen a number of tracks on this album got a big upgrade - I had previosuly rated both this and DWD quite low but now there's a clear gap in favour of TWOM . 
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Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #331 on: November 10, 2015, 05:27:21 PM »
I need to listen to it again too.  I haven't spun it in ages, can't remember when actually.
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Offline ori.elias5

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #332 on: November 10, 2015, 05:29:08 PM »
Great thread!!

Savatage is one of my all time fav bands!

Dark Master you have earned my respect  :hefdaddy

As for TWOM album, I include both DWD and TWOM albums as 2 of my least favorite savatage albums, as they turned more into bombastic music although it is still great. Hey, what a great guitar solo on the storm!

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #333 on: November 10, 2015, 06:32:52 PM »
Will listen to Magellan tomorrow.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Calvin6s

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #334 on: November 10, 2015, 09:39:05 PM »
Will listen to Magellan tomorrow.

I love Magellan.  Oh you mean the waking Magellan. 

Offline Big Hath

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #335 on: November 10, 2015, 10:13:48 PM »
big fan of this album
Winger would be better!

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Calvin6s

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #336 on: November 10, 2015, 10:25:33 PM »
TWoM has a better flow from beginning to end than DWD.  Take away the Sarajevo instrumental and DWD would really be hurting.

Offline jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #337 on: November 11, 2015, 04:03:36 AM »
Amazing album

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #338 on: November 11, 2015, 07:07:44 AM »
TWOM is so much better than DWD. They are similar in a way, but different where it counts for me. TWOM is much more cohesive, it rocks more and the songs can stand on their own. You have a much more guitar oriented record and the riffs and solos are great. In fact this is one of my favorite Savatage records. And, although I don't really understand (or care) for the story, it is a lot less cheesy.

Paragons Of Innocence, The Wake Of Magellan, The Hourglass would be my favorites, but I like all of the songs.

Regarding Pitrelli: He is good in Savatage but he doesn't really stand out, as other's have mentioned. But I have seen him in the 90s with T.M. Stevens in a small club (probably no more than 200 people in attendance) and he blew me away.
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #339 on: November 11, 2015, 10:47:43 AM »


    Even moreso then Dead Winter Dead, The Wake of Magellan would draw a great dividing line through the Savatage fanbase.  For the band's younger and more progressively inclined fans, as well as their European and other audiences overseas, The Wake of Magellan would mark an apotheosis for Savatage as their popularity soared to unimaginable heights and the  band could now command the respect reserved for heavy metal's most elite.  But for Savatage's older and more metal fans, The Wake of Magellan would be the last straw. Their patience stretched to the limit by rock operas and symphonic dabblings, the metal purists among the Savatage faithful had finally reached their breaking point.  Savatage had grown so far beyond their roots, they were now completely unrecognizable.  The band found themselves in the uncomfortable position of have to choose between whether to cater to their older, more metal oriented fans or their newer fans of symphonic metal opera.

OK, Just listened to The Wake Of Magellan. I really must say that this might be my favorite Savatage album I've heard so far.

One of my biggest gripes about Savatage is not only their inconsistencies from album to album, but also within albums. TWOM, to me, is their most consistent and focused from song to song. And consistently heavy. I like that. In fact, I think it's overall their heaviest album since Sirens, which is why I bolded that one line in DM's quote. If you take out the very cheesy and unneeded Welcome, this is simply a great heavy metal album. I guess, for me, the same could be said about HOTMK, but I still feel like that album has too many peaks AND valleys, whereas TWOM is far more solid.
I don't get any "showtune" vibe from TWOM other than Welcome. I actually think it's pretty fantastic, and I cannot understand why an old school Savatage fan would have an issue with TWOM.

Oh, and The Storm is amazing. It was not what I was expecting when I saw the title.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #340 on: November 11, 2015, 07:47:27 PM »
I think Welcome is a great piece.  I think The Ocean as the first track is amazing.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #341 on: November 11, 2015, 10:10:21 PM »
I think Welcome is a great piece.  I think The Ocean as the first track is amazing.

The Ocean is a major standout for me

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #342 on: November 12, 2015, 01:00:48 AM »
The combination of The Ocean and Welcome is a good album opener and works much better (imo) than Overture/Sarajevo on DWD.

And re heavyness: I wouldn't say that it is the heaviest since Sirens, but it is certainly in the same league as Edge Of Thorns or Handful Of Rain and it is much heavier, riff-driven and guitar-orientated than DWD. And the next one will feature even more metal.
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #343 on: November 12, 2015, 05:41:20 AM »
I think Welcome is a great piece.   

I'm not saying it's not. It just feel so detached from the rest of the album.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #344 on: November 12, 2015, 09:33:04 AM »
I cannot understand why an old school Savatage fan would have an issue with TWOM.


It largely has to do with the fact that by the time they reached The Wake of Magellan the band's sound and (especially) their line-up had changed so much since their classic days, for many of the band's older fans, Savatage might was well have just been an entirely new band.  In fact, one major complaint many old school fans have of the later albums is that they basically just sound like a rocked up TSO, with all their orchestration and Paul's rock opera lyrics.  I think that assertion is a bit unfair, as late-era Savatage does have it's own distinct identity, not just from earlier Savatage, but also from TSO.  The band in their later years was much more then just a heavier, less successful incarnation of TSO, but had their own unique (and, in my opinion, perfect) balance of symphonic and metal elements.  But I think for many old school fans, nostalgia of the Sirens and Hall of the Mountain King days clouded their judgement of the later Savatage records.  There were some Savatage fans that were just unwilling to accept any incarnation of the band without Criss Oliva and Steve Wacholz, and the musical elements those two brought to Savatage (I can certainly empathize with the loss of Criss, although given how often Jon Oliva played drums on various tracks in the studio, I do feel that the influence Wacholz had on the sound of early Savatage is greatly exaggerated).  For those sorts of fans, any version of Savatage after Streets, and especially after Edge of Thorns, was illegitimate.

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #345 on: November 12, 2015, 03:24:29 PM »
For those sorts of fans, any version of Savatage after Streets, and especially after Edge of Thorns, was illegitimate.

Seeing as how I somewhat fall in that category, it was mainly about the loss of Criss.  It would be like DT losing Petrucci.  It isn't nostalgia.  It is noticing that some of the secret recipe has been lost.  Criss in TSO would have been awesome.

Despite that, Handful of Rain started to show some of the loss, but clearly Jon had a lot of emotion to release that makes some of the songs on that album all time classics.  I consider Jon an equal to Criss, so illegitimate isn't the right word.

There's also the problem that Images and Words came out before the Savatage shift and they just did it so much better.

Handful of Rain was so good that I went into DWD and TWoM with more exuberance than even earlier Savatage, so the preconceived bias was definitely not a problem.  I specifically recall having Jury Duty where parking was a bitch.  We had really long lunch breaks, so I usually had some extra time but didn't want to drive out and pay the "day rate" again.  TWoM lined up with that time, so it was blasting from auto.  Even though I was enjoying it, it just wasn't grabbing me.  If there was any bias, it was the built in "this is awesome" and it took me a long time to come to the conclusion that it will never be a Gutter Ballet, Streets, Edge of Thorns, etc.  I was in the limbo of still loving Savatage and letting people know it, but putting on the older albums over the new ones at a 100:1 ratio.

It was pure Criss loss.  His rhythms, embellishments and leads were just too perfect.

Offline Lowdz

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #346 on: November 12, 2015, 03:47:33 PM »
Off topic, but the new TSO is streaming on their website, if you sign up to their mailing list or log in with Facebook.

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #347 on: November 16, 2015, 10:35:36 AM »
Sorry, but it is looking like Poets and Madmen will have to wait another week.  I've got too much stuff on my plate at the moment and don't have the time.  In the meantime, though, feel free to continue discussing Savatage up to this point in time.  I've actually been meaning to reply to Calvin's post for a while, but have not really had the opportunity to do so.

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #348 on: November 17, 2015, 02:28:13 AM »
Maybe off topic, but I've been watching bits and pieces from the Wacken gig. Sound is great, lighting is fantasstic, but I'm not so sure about some of the singing. Looks a bit hodge-podge so far....
From the ocean comes the notion that the realise lies in rhythm. The rhythm of vision is dancer, and when you dance you´re always on the one. From the looking comes to see, wondrous realise real eyes....

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - There are wounds that bleed inside us...
« Reply #349 on: November 17, 2015, 04:03:42 AM »
The couple of clips I saw were fantastic, vocals also.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.