Author Topic: The Savatage Discography - Result and cause...  (Read 37332 times)

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Offline jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #245 on: October 13, 2015, 04:51:42 AM »
Awesome write up as per usual DM. You need to set aside half a day to go through it lol.


Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #246 on: October 13, 2015, 05:22:36 AM »
I've always loved this album.  I think it's quite fabulous.  Chance blew me away the first time I heard it.  And the closer is Savatage at it's best in regards to ballads IMO, it's quite a forgotten and underrated tune.
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Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #247 on: October 15, 2015, 02:02:20 AM »
Edge Of Thorns:

I was surprised when I first heard the title track, because I didn’t know that Savatage had changed singers. In fact at first I wouldn’t believe that this was Savatage when a friend played me this song. But I really liked Zak’s voice and accepted him quickly. And for all this talk about blues and southern rock, I don’t hear it. For me Zak is still a metal singer, maybe not as generic as others and he may have some of the southern rock and blues influences, but he’s far from Lynyrd Skynyrd or Stevie Ray Vaughan or whatever.

The album overall is more straight forward than previous records, Streets in particular. And as good as Streets was, I like this one better. My favorites are the title track, He Carves His Stone, Conversation Piece (the only metal song to feature a “cup of tea yeah” line  ;D), Damien and Miles Away.

Handful Of Rain:

Criss’s death was a tragic loss to the band and to the music world in general. And naturally the sound of Savatage changed.

When I first heard Handful Of Rain I didn’t know the circumstances of how the record came together and that the credited players didn’t really play on the record and that is was mostly Jon playing all the instruments.

Now, knowing the circumstances I have a hard time criticizing the record but all in all I find it not as good as others. Some songs are great but on the whole the record doesn’t really grab me.

Taunting Cobras is really great, with it’s thrash metal riffs it is one of the angriest songs in the Savatage catalogue. Handful Of Rain is a good enough song and Chance introduces the counterpoint vocals. But in this song it all feels a little bit thrown together. The blueprint is laid but the counterpoint vocals will be developed further until they culminate in the epic Morphine Child. Alone You Breathe is a strong emotional ballad.

It would be interesting, as others have mentioned, to hear what direction Savatage would have taken, if Criss was still alive. But sadly, we can only speculate.
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #248 on: October 15, 2015, 03:54:44 PM »

It would be interesting, as others have mentioned, to hear what direction Savatage would have taken, if Criss was still alive. But sadly, we can only speculate.

It is, of course, impossible to know what musical direction Savatage would have taken had Criss lived.  That being said though, there are some indicators:

For one thing, it is worth noting that the band had every intention of initiating a dual lead vocal style once Jon's voice was fully healed and him and Caffery returned to the band full time.  To what effect the dual lead vocals would have had on the development of the music is unknown, but it is likely we would still have gotten something not unlike the vocals of Dead Winter Dead, The Wake of Magellan and what had been planned for Poets and Madmen.  Whether or not they still would have developed the counterpoint vocals is debatable.  Jon said that the exploration of vocal cannons, like in "Chance", had been developed partially to make up for the loss of what Criss had added to their music.  It's entirely possible that they still might have gone down that route; after all, Jon, Criss and Paul were all huge fans of Queen, but to what extent counterpoint vocals would have come to define the music of Savatage is uncertain.

However, it should also be pointed out that Savatage would most likely have continued to incorporate orchestral and neoclassical elements into their music even if Criss had lived.  Criss had been a driving force behind many of the band's early instrumentals, such as "Prelude to Madness" and "Temptation Revelation".  Further more, prior to his passing, he had announced his intention of doing a symphonic/neoclassical instrumental album with an orchestra that he had intended to call 'Tage Mahal.  Sadly, not a single note of the project was ever recorded (though Jon Oliva would later pay homage to it by using the name for his first JOP record), but there is every indication that Criss was very much interested in exploring symphonic and neoclassical landscapes further then what Savatage had already done.

Lastly, even though the band had backed away from rock opera after Streets, there is also every indication that Jon and Paul were still very interested in that aspect of Savatage's music.  Romanov was written during the Edge of Thorns era, and at the time, there was still a good deal of debate over exactly how that project would be realized.  Doing Romanov as a Savatage album, while not exactly the first choice, was never really taken off the table, and there is much evidence that even if Romanov had been released as something else (a Broadway production, or as rock orchestra project a la TSO), Savatage still would have been very much involved in the project.

All things considered, I think the general direction Savatage took after 1993, with the multiple singers, the orchestrations, and the rock operas, both as Savatage and later with TSO, was generally the same direction they would have taken had Criss lived.  Despite what some of the metal purists among the Savatage faithful may say, there is every indication that Criss was very much interested in exploring those musical elements, and, in the case of the symphonic/orchestral elements, was in fact, a driving force behind their development.  The return of Savatage to a more straight forward metal sound, a la Doctor Butcher, was never really the intention of the band, and Criss' death had little, if any, impact on that evolution.

What Criss death did change, though, was the songwriting dynamic within the band, and how that effected the arrangements, and overall sound, of Savatage.  One complaint that many older Savatage fans have of the later albums is that the metal elements of Savatage (the guitars, bass and drums) serve primarily to support and strengthen the vocals and orchestration, rather then being the basis of the songwriting themselves.  In this respect, I feel the metal old guard has a valid point.  With Criss out of the picture, the song writing was left primarily in the hands of Jon and Paul, and while both were guitar players, neither was a specialist on the instrument, let alone virtuosos of Criss' caliber.  Many of the early Savatage songs had been built around riffs Criss had written.  By contrast, the songs for many of the later Savatage albums, especially Dead Winter Dead, and The Wake of Magellan, were written primarily around the vocals and piano first, and the metal elements were added later.  There was some attempt to reverse this trend on Poets and Madmen, no doubt because Chris Caffery became more involved in the songwriting.  Even so, the music on Poets and Madmen, heavy though it may be, was still fundamentally arranged around the vocals and orchestrations.  The guitars, bass and drums may have been brought to the fore of the music a bit more noticeably then on the previous two records, but what defined the music on P&M was less the riffs and the beats and more the melodies and harmonies, both of which were predominantly the preserve of the vocals and keys/orchestration in the arrangements.'

So, in short, had Criss lived, I believe Savatage still would have gone down much the same road they did anyways, the only difference being that the guitars would have been much more prominent in the songwriting process.  That might have made the music a bit more palatable to the fans who gradually lost interest in the band as the O'Neill era progressed.  But the evolution of Savatage into a progressive/symphonic rock opera group was well under way even before Criss passed.  It may have been a bit heavier and guitar-centric, thanks to Criss, but it was still going to happen, sooner or later.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 06:54:18 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #249 on: October 15, 2015, 05:05:18 PM »
Imagine that official lineup; Criss, Jon, Zak, Chris, Johnny and Doc!  :hefdaddy
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #250 on: October 15, 2015, 06:55:06 PM »
Imagine that official lineup; Criss, Jon, Zak, Chris, Johnny and Doc!  :hefdaddy

Pretty much my ideal Savatage lineup there.  Damn shame we never got an album or a tour with all those guys in the band at the same time.

Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #251 on: October 15, 2015, 11:57:01 PM »
So, in short, had Criss lived, I believe Savatage still would have gone down much the same road they did anyways, the only difference being that the guitars would have been much more prominent in the songwriting process.

This sums up my thoughts about it exactly. Maybe the songs would have been more riff-based, but I believe the rock-opera thing would still have come.
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #252 on: October 18, 2015, 01:49:09 PM »
Ok, so tomorrow will be a sort of interregnum from the main studio discography as I will be covering Japan Live '94, the first of the two official Savatage live albums and their only official live video/DVD.  Hopefully, it will give us a chance to discuss a bit more in depth the effects of the massive changes that occurred in the band in the brief '93-'94 time period, as well as permitting us our first real opportunity to take a look at Savatage as a live band.

Offline SoundscapeMN

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #253 on: October 19, 2015, 05:18:19 AM »
Chris Caffery was on Sea of Tranquility's YouTube channel the other day (talking about his new album, Waacken, etc)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwkSbr-t73g

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #254 on: October 19, 2015, 05:21:16 AM »
I love Japan 94.  I always felt guilty for liking it and liking what Skolnick did, even though he wasn't true to a lot of the solos, he was brilliant.
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Offline Mister Gold

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #255 on: October 19, 2015, 06:33:54 AM »
Man, the "What If Criss had lived" question really gets my mind wandering... I do think the band would have turned out differently musically, though those symphonic and dual vocal elements obviously still would have popped up in some fashion. Listening to Edge of Thorns and watching the live show footage from 1993 presents a Savatage that was pretty different than what came before or after. The Savatage of 1993 was like a more refined Hall of the Mountain King-era Savatage, with elements of Metallica, Judas Priest and Queensryche dabbled in there too.

EDIT: Yeah, I think TDM is spot-on: the band would have continued into the same general direction that they ended up going in, but the guitars would have been more prominent and added more of an edge to the music. A blend of EoT and Streets, I think.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 08:16:44 AM by Mister Gold »
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #256 on: October 19, 2015, 03:57:31 PM »
Live - Japan Live '94/Live in Japan



Released   October 9, 1995
2000-11-14 (Nuclear Blast re-issue)
Recorded   November 12, 1994
Genre   Heavy metal
Length   59:32 (CD)
Label   SPV
Producer   Paul O'Neill

Tracklist

1. "Taunting Cobras"
2. "Edge of Thorns"
3. "Chance"
4. "Conversation Piece" *
5. "Nothing Going On"
6. "He Carves His Stone"
7. "Jesus Saves"
8. "Watching You Fall"
9. "Castles Burning"
10. "All That I Bleed"
11. "Stare Into the Sun" *
12. "Damien" *
13. "Handful of Rain"
14. "Sirens"
15. "Gutter Ballet"
16. "Hall of the Mountain King" *

* only on the video/DVD release

Lineup

Lead Vocals: Zak Stevens
Lead Guitars: Alex Skolnick
Bass Guitar: Johnny Lee Middleton
Keyboards, Guitars and Vocals: Jon Oliva
Drums: Jeff Plate

   Even a casual glance at the Savatage discography would reveal a relative dearth of live releases.  In retrospect, it is a wonder why Savatage did not release more live albums throughout the twenty some years they were active.  The band was frequently cited as excellent in a concert setting, and given how many different lineups the band went through over the course of their careers, one would think that there would be more then enough material for an ample supply of live releases, with few featuring the same lineup.  One possible explanation for this lack of live albums is a combination of perfectionism and bias on the part of the band members and their producer, Paul O'Neill.  While Savatage certainly was never a band that took an excess amount of time in the studio between releases (at least not until Trans-Siberian Orchestra came into being), the band was known for spending long hours and obscene amounts of money in the studio to make their albums sound just right for their ears.  While live albums can be touched up considerably in the studio after the actual performance, a band must still work within the confines of what live footage they have available.

   Coupled with this perfectionism is an undercurrent of bias against live releases.  Particularly from Paul, it seems that the members of Savatage, as well as their producer, do not think especially highly of live albums.  Paul has stated in interviews over the years that he feels live albums do not adequately capture the energy and magic of being at an actual concert.  It is for this reason that Trans-Siberian Orchestra has yet to release a single full live album, despite there being a plethora live footage in the Savatage/TSO archives.  It is also for this reason why so many bootlegs of Savatage and TSO concerts have been allowed to circulate throughout the Internet and the collector's community for years; the band apparently doesn't seem to care too much about fan filmed footage of concerts being made available to the public, albeit illegitimately.  It is also for this reason that it seems unlikely for a release of the complete Wacken 2015 performance of Savatage and TSO to ever see the light of day.

   As it is, Savatage has to date released two live records, the first with a accompanying concert video; Japan Live '94 (aka, Live in Japan), and Final Bell (aka Ghost in the Ruins) : A Tribute to Criss Oliva.  A third live offering, entitled Live Devastation, was planned for release, only to be pulled at the last minute.  Promotional copies of Live Devastation were, however, sent out before the release was canceled, and Live Devastation has subsequently been widely bootlegged.  The reasons why these albums were permitted to be made available to the general public most likely has to do with the exceptional circumstances surrounding their release.  After the Handful of Rain tour was concluded at the end of 1994, there were still serious doubts within the Savatage organization as to whether or not the band would, or even could, continue without Criss. 

   While the band debated the future or Savatage, the prospect remained that if the decision would be made to put Savatage to rest, Handful of Rain would be the band's final studio album.  A live album from the record's promotional tour was deemed appropriate, perhaps as a possible send off to Savatage in the event that the band decided to call it a day after all.  For reasons that I will explore next week, Jon and Paul chose to continue Savatage after 1994.  A second live release followed less then a year later, perhaps because it was determined that the earlier era of the band, with Criss on lead guitar and Jon on lead vocals, deserved a live release of it's own.  The point being made here is that the sole two live records by a band that has, at least from all the available evidence, disdained live albums, were both released due most likely to the circumstances surrounding Criss' death and the possible end of Savatage in the mid-1990's.  Had Jon and Paul know for certain that they would be continuing Savatage after 1994, I doubt  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan would have ever been made, and, subsequently, the would not have been the apparent need for the Jon and Criss led era of the band to have their own live representative live album as well.

    Japan Live '94/Live in Japan, recorded at the end of the Handful of Rain tour, captured Savatage at a rather odd moment of their careers, with several long time members failing to make an appearance.  Criss Oliva had just passed, and Chris Caffery, his protege and heir apparent, was unwilling to step into his mentor and friend's shoes so soon after his death.  Steve Wacholz, who had declined touring for Edge of Thorns, did the same for Handful of Rain, and this time made he departure from Savatage permanent.  In their place, Alex Skolnick and Jeff Plate, the former having performed on the album, filled out the gaps alongside Zak Stevens and Johnny Lee Middleton.  Jon Oliva, who had officially been “out” of Savatage during the Edge of Thorns/ Handfull of Rain era, returned to the band to complete the lineup, performing keyboards, rhythm guitars, and, on “Gutter Ballet”, joint lead vocals with Zak Stevens.   Japan Live '94/Live in Japan therefore features a unique, one-time-only lineup, one that neither performed (or, more properly, was credited) on the previous album, nor would appear on future Savatage albums.

   Given that Zak Stevens was still the lead singer in the band at the time, it is perhaps appropriate that the setlist for the show would heavily revolve aound songs chosen from the two then most recent records.  The lack of older, more metal songs has often been a criticism of  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan.  However, one noticeable side benefit of having the setlist feature mostly Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain songs is that many of the tracks on  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan would rarely, if ever, be played live again, capturing in concerts such obscure songs as “Conversations Piece” that would otherwise have gone unheard in later years.  Indeed, for those Savatage fans who are particularly fond of the early Zak Stevens era, Japan Live '94/Live in Japan is real treat, not just for the bigger hits of the period, but for the myriad deep cuts.

   By far the most controversial element of  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan is Alex Skolnick's guitar solos, particularly on the older material.  Under normal circumstances, Skolnick's altering of guitar solos would most likely have attracted little complaint.  Many bands alter their guitar solos live, whether they have changed guitarists or not.  Given that this was so soon after Criss Oliva's death, however, Alex's solo spots drew heavy criticism from fans, as well as from Chris Caffery, as this was seen as an insult to Criss Oliva's work.  It should be noted that prior to the tour, Alex had asked Jon Oliva how closely he should follow Criss' original solos, and was told that he could perform them however he so desired.  It is unlikely the band could have anticipated how such a decision would upset a good many fans.  For what it's worth, Skolnick's work on  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan is excellent.  Even on songs famous for Criss' epic soloing, Alex still manages to bring a respectable degree of emotion and technical proficiency all his own to Savatage.  He may not have been Criss Oliva (or Chris Caffery), but Alex Skolnick is a world class guitarist in his own right, and, once preconceived notions of what these solos should sound like are set aside, his considerable talent is readily apparent on this record.  Under different circumstances, his work here might have been praised.

   Another point of contention on  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan is Zak's performance of songs from the Jon Oliva fronted era of the band.  As has been noted many times before, Zak's voice was very different from Jon's, and while many of the songs from the Zak era had been written with Jon's voice in mind, it should go without saying that the reverse is far from true.  That being said, it should be noted that Zak generally sings Jon's songs rather well on Japan Live '94/Live in Japan.  His Southern drawl lends a rather distinctive vibe to “Jesus Saves”, and his duet with Jon on “Gutter Ballet” is excellent, and arguably the highlight of the album.  His performance of “Hall of the Mountain King” is solid, although it does leave one wishing to hear Jon back on the mic.  Only on “Sirens” does Zak sound out of place, but that is perhaps to be expected.  Even so, he sings the song well, although it is clearly not suited for his voice.

   Otherwise, there is little to complain about on  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan.  The band, despite their recent tragedies and ordeals, was in top form, and if this was intended to be a possible send off to Savatage in the event that the band opted not to continue after 1994, it would have been a worthy swansong to a career of groundbreaking metal.  Yes, is is true that there are better Savatage concerts on film floating around out there, from both earlier and later periods.  But taken for what it is,  Japan Live '94/Live in Japan is an enduring testament to the power and majesty Savatage was capable of bringing to bear live.  Watching this video, it becomes apparent that one of the biggest loses fans suffered when Savatage went on hiatus after 2002 was not only the absence of further Savatage studio albums, but the opportunity to bask in the presence of one of the greatest unsung bands in history live in person.  Ironically, Paul's comments about how concert videos fail to fully capture the essence of the live experience proves nowhere more true then on Japan Live '94/Live in Japan, for despite it's admirable quality, one is left wishing they could see Savatage live in the flesh just one more time...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 04:28:20 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #257 on: October 19, 2015, 08:17:11 PM »
Great live album

It would have been nice to have more older material included, but still awesome release.

I bought that double best of a few years back because it had the dvd of this show; it ended up being region specific and wouldn't play

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #258 on: October 19, 2015, 08:25:48 PM »
Great live album

It would have been nice to have more older material included, but still awesome release.

I bought that double best of a few years back because it had the dvd of this show; it ended up being region specific and wouldn't play

It should play on a PC DVD player.  I was very happy that the bonus DVD that came with the narrated version of Streets was region free.

Offline jammindude

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #259 on: October 19, 2015, 09:05:36 PM »
Oh I've got a HUGE complaint about this album.   

I bought this album for *one reason*.  To hear Chance performed live.


...biggest case of aural "blue ball" in my entire life.

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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #260 on: October 19, 2015, 09:23:33 PM »
Oh I've got a HUGE complaint about this album.   

I bought this album for *one reason*.  To hear Chance performed live.


...biggest case of aural "blue ball" in my entire life.

Yeah, I was going to bring that up and kinda forgot.  I believe that, at the time, the band either didn't have enough members to actually sing all the vocal lines in the counterpoint section, or they just didn't have enough members that could sing well enough.  Later, during the DWD/TWOM era, the band did perform the entire song with every member except Plate singing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMllrV7Nr1M&list=RDOMllrV7Nr1M

At any rate, TSO did an amazing rendition on their Beethoven's Last Night tours a few years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEKNLBFyV_Q


EDIT

On an unrelated note, it has come to my attention that there is some confusion over exactly when Dead Winter Dead was released.  Savatage.com lists the date as 10/24/95, which is after Japan Live '94/Live in Japan.  Wikipedia lists the release date as 9/22/95, before Japan Live '94/Live in Japan, in the band's discography section, and has Dead Winter Dead placed before Japan Live '94/Live in Japan in their chronology.  However, the actual article for Dead Winter Dead has the 10/24/95 release date.  Metal-archives.com also uses the 9/22/95 date, and discogs.com, while it does not give an exact date, does have Dead Winter Dead placed before Japan Live '94/Live in Japan in their discography.

I chose to assume the later date (10/24/95) is the correct one for the purposes of this thread for two reasons:

1) It is the only date listed for the album on the band's official website, which I take to be more trustworthy then wikipedia, metal-archives, or discogs.

2) For the sake of flow in the story of Savatage, it makes more sense to discus Japan Live '94/Live in Japan before  Dead Winter Dead given that it was from the tour for Handful of Rain, and the actual concert took place before  Dead Winter Dead was released.

I wasn't sure if anyone else noticed it, but in the event that anyone did, I wanted to address the discrepancy.  Hopefully there was no confusion as to why I was discussing Japan Live '94/Live in Japan before Dead Winter Dead .
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 09:51:18 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #261 on: October 20, 2015, 05:57:39 AM »
I was also really annoyed the whole of Chance wasn't on here too.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 03:46:11 PM by wolfking »
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Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #262 on: October 20, 2015, 06:54:32 AM »
Good live album but the track listing is, although understandable, a bit one sided on the Zak records.

And why play Chance if you play only the first half?

And I think I read somewhere that Skolnick wasn't really into touring and playing with Savatage, that he regarded it just as a chance to make some money after he left Testament and that that is the main reason he didn't bother staying close to Criss' solos. Is that a rumor or is there some truth to it?
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #263 on: October 20, 2015, 08:34:31 AM »

And I think I read somewhere that Skolnick wasn't really into touring and playing with Savatage, that he regarded it just as a chance to make some money after he left Testament and that that is the main reason he didn't bother staying close to Criss' solos. Is that a rumor or is there some truth to it?

According to Jon Oliva, Skolnick was originally only going to be a guest guitarist on Handful of Rain; he was never intended to become the lead guitarist of the band.  Jon had wanted Chris Caffery to fill that position.  However, Caffery declined since at that time he was not yet ready to take Criss Oliva's place in the band.  Skolnick was then signed to a "one album, one tour" contract, effectively becoming the lead guitarist of Savatage for a year, and then having the option to decide after one album and tour whether or not he wished to stay in Savatage, or pursue other interests.  After the tour, Skolnick would decline to renew his contract with Savatage.  He would later say that while he loved the band and their music, he realized that he would not have much room in Savatage to express himself creatively, as Savatage was very much Jon Oliva's baby:

https://www.goldminemag.com/features/jazz-alex-skolnick-true-identity

Quote from: Alex Skolnick
I knew I was heading in a different direction from the band, but I just didn't know where. For some reason, joining Savatage just didn't feel right. I'm not sure why that is ... It wasn't one particular thing. Maybe I felt I needed to ... be one of the main creative voices in the band. If I had stayed with Savatage, I wouldn't have been.

Concerning Alex's solos, as I explained above, Jon basically told Alex that he could play the solos however he wanted.  As I understand it, the band was rather shocked and surprised that the fans became so upset when Alex did not play Criss' solos verbatim.  Chris Caffery was one of those who disliked the altered solos, and ensuring that Criss' solos would be performed properly was a significant motivator for Caffery to rejoin Savatage. 

Quote from: Savatage.com FAQ
Q: Why did Alex change a lot of Criss’s solos when he played them live?

A: Jon had told Alex to handle the solos anyway he wanted to, so Alex decide to change them around. Unfortunately a large portion of the fan based didn’t appreciate this! One person was especially annoyed, Chris Caffery. Chris vowed to come back to Savatage and play the solos the way the were played by Criss. Chris made good on his vow.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 08:45:38 AM by The Dark Master »

Offline Lowdz

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #264 on: October 20, 2015, 03:25:51 PM »
Not heard this live album but do have the did version with the Orchestra Plays best of. I think I've only played that once and was a bit disappointed. Will have to dig it out again.

Only live album I have by the band is the Ghost In The Ruins tribute to Criss.

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #265 on: October 20, 2015, 03:48:36 PM »
I remember Caffery being really annoyed and not being afraid of voicing his opinion.

I loved what Alex did on that live album.  It feels blasphemous, but he's such a good guitarist, he pulls it off.  I can understand why fans would be a bit upset though.  Criss was a big Skolnick fan, so I don't think he would have minded.

Only live album I have by the band is the Ghost In The Ruins tribute to Criss.

That's a brilliant live album.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #266 on: October 25, 2015, 08:56:05 PM »
Dead Winter Dead write up coming tomorrow.  Given that this is a) my favourite album by the band, b) creatively marks the apex of the musical direction they took once they started working with Paul, c) directly led to the birth of TSO, d) turned the band into a legitimate phenomena in Europe, and a multitude of other reasons I will explore tomorrow, I should have a lot to say about this record.

Offline jjrock88

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #267 on: October 25, 2015, 10:39:13 PM »
Dead Winter Dead write up coming tomorrow.  Given that this is a) my favourite album by the band, b) creatively marks the apex of the musical direction they took once they started working with Paul, c) directly led to the birth of TSO, d) turned the band into a legitimate phenomena in Europe, and a multitude of other reasons I will explore tomorrow, I should have a lot to say about this record.

That's cool that DWD is your favorite from the band. 

It contains a somewhat popular song  ;D

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #268 on: October 26, 2015, 01:59:40 PM »
DWD writeup is complete.  I'll post it in a couple hours after I get home and have chance to proof read it and maybe touch it up a bit.  Make sure you're comfortable before you start to read it!   :lol

Offline alterationx0

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #269 on: October 26, 2015, 02:22:46 PM »
Looking forward to it! And take the opportunity to say that I've been enjoying your writing in this thread a lot lately. DWD is my favourite album by the band as well.

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #270 on: October 26, 2015, 05:15:06 PM »
   Part 10 – Where this all has led...




Released   October 24, 1995
Genre   Progressive metal, Symphonic metal, Power metal
Length   52:06
Label   Atlantic/Wea
Producer   Paul O'Neill/Jon Oliva

Tracklist:

All songs written and composed by Jon Oliva and Paul O'Neill, except where noted.

1.   "Overture"     1:50
2.   "Sarajevo"     2:31
3.   "This is the Time (1990)"     5:40
4.   "I Am"     4:32
5.   "Starlight"     5:38
6.   "Doesn't Matter Anyway"     3:47
7.   "This Isn't What We Meant"     4:12
8.   "Mozart and Madness"     5:01
9.   "Memory"     1:19
10.   "Dead Winter Dead"     4:18
11.   "One Child"     5:14
12.   "Christmas Eve (Sarajevo 12/24)" (Robert Kinkel, Jon Oliva, Paul O'Neill)   3:24
13.   "Not What You See"     5:02

Band Lineup:

Zachary Stevens - lead vocals
Jon Oliva – keyboards, lead vocals (featured on "I Am" and "Doesn't Matter Anyway"), backing vocals (on "Starlight")
Chris Caffery – guitars, backing vocals
Al Pitrelli - guitars, backing vocals
Johnny Lee Middleton – bass guitar, backing vocals
Jeff Plate – drums

   When looking back at the history of Savatage, it has become fashionable to question why the band would even bother to continue on after Handful of Rain.  Many, including Jon Oliva himself, would later state that the band had effectively died with Criss, and that what Savatage became after 1994 was, for all intents and purposes, a prototype of Trans-Siberian Orchestra.  Indeed, the musical style of the later Savatage albums would be, in many ways, almost identical to that of TSO.  All these albums would be heavily orchestrated rock operas with lyrics written entirely by Paul O'Neill, and the first two would feature a significant number of instrumental tracks.  Add to this the fact that the lineup that was established in 1995 would later become the nucleus of TSO, and the differences between later day Savatage and it's offshoot side-project seem insignificant.  Furthermore, given the vast amount of commercial success TSO would later achieve in America, hindsight would seem to suggest that Savatage should have been laid to rest after Handful of Rain, and the band members would then later move on to more profitable endeavors.

   What many fail to realize is that back in 1995, Savatage still appeared to remain the best option available to Jon Oliva and company.  Trans-Siberian Orchestra was still a non-entity.  Romanov had long since been caught up in development hell as debates over how exactly that project should be presented (as a rock opera album, as a Broadway production, or via other options) took place.  Jon and Paul had actually sold the rights to that project to a production company that then proceeded to further quibble over what form exactly Romanov should take.  As for Doctor Butcher, Jon's new band with Chris Caffery, that band had proven incapable of securing a record deal outside of Europe.  While the debut of Doctor Butcher would go on to become a highly sought after piece of Savatage history, as well as remaining very dear to the hearts of those fans who wished to see Savatage return to a more metal style, in the mid 90's Doctor Butcher had failed to make a significant impact. 

   Compared to TSO or Doctor Butcher, a new Savatage album looked to have a higher probability of success.  While Handful of Rain had not managed to reach the heights of popularity enjoyed by Edge of Thorns, the album had still performed respectably in the States, and had sold rather well overseas, particularly in Europe.  Savatage also had a further three albums remaining on their contract with Atlantic, which was better then the prospects either TSO or Doctor Butcher faced at the time.  But perhaps above all else, Jon and Paul were not quite ready to give up on Savatage just yet.  Keeping Savatage alive would serve to keep the memory and legacy of Criss Oliva alive as well.  Despite the dire straights the band face in 1995, Jon and Paul still felt that there was more they could do as Savatage.  The best way to honour Criss might be to give Savatage another shot.

   As it happened, current events would prove fertile ground for Paul's lyricism.  Following the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe between 1989 and 1991, the multi-ethnic state of Yugoslavia imploded into a seething mass of warring nationalities.  On television sets across the globe, the entire world watched in horror as war engulfed the heart of Europe for the first time since 1945.  The significance of the tragedy was not lost on Paul, an avid history buff and follower of world news.  Duly inspired, he wrote a rock opera with a Romeo and Juliet-esque romance between a Serbian boy and a Muslim girl set against the backdrop of the Yugoslav Wars.  The work would touch on a number of large themes such as the futility of war and the crossing of social barriers.  Paul had gradually been taking the lead in crafting Savatage's lyrics over the years as Jon concentrated more on composing music.  Lyrically spent after Handful of Rain and the Doctor Butcher album, Jon would focus entirely on writing music for the remainder of Savatage's career, effectively handing over the lyrical reigns to Paul.  It would be a full decade before Jon Oliva would begin writing lyrics again for his next band, Jon Oliva's Pain.  The album that became Dead Winter Dead thus represents a significant point in the development of Jon and Paul's creative relationship, with the pair firmly established in their separate roles as composer and lyricist. 

   Dead Winter Dead would also mark the first time the music for an entire Savatage album was composed around pre-written lyrics.  While Paul had written lyrics before the music for individual songs in the past (particularly “Believe”), Dead Winter Dead would see the establishment of a new song writing formula where Paul would write out a complete story with lyrics first before composing the music with Jon.  Furthermore, Jon and Paul would write the music for Dead Winter Dead primarily on piano, rather then guitar.  This new method of songwriting would be repeated on not only the following Savatage record, The Wake of Magellan, but also on most of the Trans-Siberian Orchestra albums as well.  With the musical emphasis moved more towards the the lyrics and keys, and away from the guitar, bass and drums, Savatage would become far less metal then they had ever been before, but they would also bring to completion an experiment into mixing classical, Broadway and metal that had begun as far back as “Gutter Ballet”.

   For the band that would perform on the new record, Jon was able to maintain most of the linup from the Handful of Rain tour.  Stevens, Middleton and Plate would all return to the fold, Dead Winter Dead being Plate's first album as a full member of Savatage, as well as Jon's first album as an official member of the band, and performing, on a couple of tracks, as a lead vocalist for the first time since Streets.  Alex Skolnick, who had become the erstaz lead guitarist of Savatage in the aftermath of Criss Oliva's death, would ultimately decline to continue on as a member of the band.  Chris Caffery, who Jon Oliva had asked to take Criss' place back in 1994, finally made his grand return to Savatage, this time as a lead guitarist in his own right.  However, Atlantic felt that, after the death of Criss Oliva and the sudden departure of a well respected guitarist such as Skolnick, Savatage needed to bring in another, more widely known musician to help fill the void.  Al Pitrelli, formerly of Alice Cooper, Asia, Dee Snider's Widowmaker, and a number of other bands, would also join Savatage in 1995, making the band, for the first time, a six-piece act, as well as adding a twin lead guitar approach between Caffery and Pitrelli to compliment the twin lead vocal style that would be adopted by Oliva and Stevens.  The new lineup would also prove to be remarkably durable.  For a solid half decade, Savatage would experience the longest period of their careers without a single member change, a welcome reprieve from the chaos the band had endured throughout the Edge of Thorns/Handful of Rain period.

   Musically, the new album would represent the totality of everything the band had done up to that point in time, and would mark the apex of a grand arc of stylistic development that had been set in motion ever since the Oliva brothers had first collaborated with Paul O'Neill on Hall of the Mountain King almost a decade prior.  For Dead Winter Dead, Jon and Paul would combine all the musical elements with which they had experimented in over the years into one singular, cohesive work of art.  The neo-classical instrumentals of Hall of the Mountain King; the Broadway-esque ballads of Gutter Ballet; the rock opera concept of Streets; the slick radio friendly sound of Edge of Thorns, the counterpoint vocals of Handful of Rain; and featuring both lead singers side by side, the entirety of a musical arsenal that Savatage had built up over the course of eight years would be brought to bear, ensuring that Dead Winter Dead would be by far the most ambitious Savatage album to date.  The seeds that had been planted so modestly in the “Prelude to Madness” from Hall of the Mountain King almost a decade earlier had finally grown enough to bear fruit.

   The most epic of Savatage albums kicks off with a degree of symphonic bombast never before heard in “Overture”.  Orchestra and band work as one here to deliver some very weighty, heavy chords.  From the very beginning, it is made apparent that this Savatage is a whole new beast, more elegant and refined to the older creature we have come to know by now, yet still possessing a respectable amount of bite.  The opening instrumental builds up to a massive cannon blast that fades into a delicate, haunting piano-driven track entitled “Sarajevo” that serves as a sort of narrative introduction to the story and setting.  Paul's lyrics weave a war-torn scene of Bosnia's decimated capitol sung ever so gently by Zak Stevens.  Exploring the great passage of history from the perspective of a stone gargoyle, the track leads back to more symphonic metal territory before a weeping, highly emotional guitar solo takes us into the first proper song, “This is the Time (1990)”.  Zak delivers an impassioned overview of the plight of the Bosnian people as they experience freedom for the first time in centuries in a very TSO-sounding ballad, replete with soaring solos and thick orchestration.  Some of the words in this song are particularly heartbreaking, not only because of their intended meaning concerning the Bosnians, but also because perhaps, on some subconscious level, Paul's lyrics reflect the story of Savatage itself:

   “We placed our years in the hourglass, they were never unearned.
   And we seemed destined to watch them pass - it was never our turn.”


   Knowing all the pain and tragedy that Savatage had endured up to 1995, and the lack of recognition and success they had received for their troubles, it is difficult to hear such poetry and not wonder if Paul was thinking about battles fought and loses suffered that were far closer to home then a war in Eastern Europe.

   Once “This is the Time (1990) has faded, an evil, plodding riff takes over as Jon Oliva makes his grand return to lead vocals on the next track “I Am”.  Representing those among the Yugoslavians who sought to make war against their neighbors and former country men, Jon's wicked, scratchy delivery of the lyrics here, somewhat different then his more high pitched, screaming approach of earlier years, is highly reminiscent of Alice Cooper, and aptly foreshadows the style he would later pursue with Jon Oliva's Pain.  Again, we have band and orchestra working in tandem to lay a bed of symphonic metal madness to support the lyricism.  The following song, “Starlight”, starts off gently enough, but the unsettling sound of the acoustic melody and Zak's menacing whisper make it clear that the album is still very much in dark territory.  The guitars return as the the song picks up, taking a more metal direction.  While Zak is singing the leads here, Jon sings backup in the chorus, giving us our first true taste of both singers performing in tandem on the same track.  The song leads into a particularly excellent ride out out section, with Caffery and Pitrelli running riot over a heavily orchestrated but still rather crunchy riff. 

   The ride-out of “Starlight”serves as a perfect lead in to probably the most metal track on the album, “Doesn't Matter Anyway.”  Jon Oliva is back on lead vocals, this time portraying an arms dealer taking advantage of the mounting violence in the divided country.  His delivery of the rapid-fire, almost rapping, lyrics is superb, while Middleton and Plate give the song a solid groove.  Again, this is one of the more guitar driven tracks, the tag team of Caffery and Pitrelli not holding anything back as they take the listener on a wild metal ride.  By contrast, “This Isn't What We Meant” is another impassioned TSO-esque ballad.  Portraying the regret that the Yugoslavians must have felt as their new-found liberty was subverted by violent nationalistic fervour, Zak demonstrates that he also has a wide degree of versatility as a vocalist, his soft and gentle delivery of the lighter sections matched by the spit and grit he brings to the fore on the heavier verses.  The highlight of the song is doubtlessly the bombastic interplay between metal band and orchestra in the middle section.  Proving their skill at mixing classical and metal, Savatage sets the stage for the epic instrumental track that is to follow.

   The next track, “Mozart and Madness”, is by far one of Savatage's more memorable instrumentals, one that most likely would have made Criss Oliva proud.  A neo-classical metal reworking of Mozart's 25th symphony (perhaps best remembered from the opening of the movie Amadeus), this track seamlessly blends the excellence of heavy metal and classical music that would later become a hallmark of Trans-Siberian Orchestra.  Indeed, a revised and expanded version of this track would later appear under the title “Mozart and Memories” on TSO's Night Castle album in 2009.  Jon Oliva's piano work is especially noteworthy on this track, deftly precise, and interwoven equally well with both the band and the orchestra.  As the orchestra works it's magic, the guitars cry and the drums and bass boom, and by the time the song is over, the listener is left in awe of how far Savatage's symphonic metal approach has come since “Prelude to Madness”.

   A much shorter instrumental, “Memory (Dead Winter Dead into)” sees the band tackling another well-known piece of classical music, this time the fourth movement from Beethoven's famous 9th symphony (aka, the “Ode to Joy”).  Starting off acoustic, the song then switches over to an electric guitar rendition of Beethoven's work that builds up into the next song, the album's title track.  A mean, crunchy riff brings Savatage back into more metal territory.  Zak has the opportunity to take a bit more of an aggressive approach on this track, demonstrating the more metal side of his voice as he sings Paul's lyrics about the Yugoslavians reflecting upon how quickly things spiraled out of control after the initial high of freedom.  Again, the real stars here prove to be our twin guitar virtuosos, Caffery and Pitrelli, as the listener is treated to another exceptional ride-out, with solos running wild all over the track. 

   While the next song, “One Child”, starts out sounding suspiciously like Journey's “Who's Crying Now?”, it ultimately proves to have far more in common with Queen.  During the chorus Savatage and orchestra deliver some decidedly heavy chords as the electric guitars compliment the more traditional strings.  But it is the song's middle section that proves the centrepiece, for it is here that we find the return of the counterpoint vocals from the last album.  Further explored and refined, Savatage continues to develop the complexity of their vocal cannons, again enveloping the listener in a wall of vocals much like “Chance”.  The whole section builds up to a dramatic climax before those awesomely fat symphonic chords make their return.  Zak takes the song to it's conclusion, his blues Southern drawl reverting to a whisper as the track ends on a tender piano note.  “One Child” was selected as the lead single from the album, and it would prove to be Savatage's final music video.  Focusing on the orphans created by wars, “One Child” would indeed be one of the band's more striking videos.  With the benefit of hindsight, however, there was a song with far greater potential as a lead single waiting on the next track...
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 06:25:39 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #271 on: October 26, 2015, 05:16:00 PM »
   Part 10 – Where this all has led... (cont.)

   As the piano coda from “One Child” fades, an acoustic guitar takes center stage over a cello and flute rendition of “God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen”.  The soft delicacy of the music is deceptive, as before long the song explodes into a heavy, driving riff with bombastic drums and bass.  The melody of “God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen” is interwoven with that of  “Carol of the Bells” played on electric guitar as Savatage crafts a song, the song, that has become a staple of Christmas ever since 1995.  Unless you have been living in a cave on Mars with your fingers in your ears for the past two decades, you have heard this song.  A heavy metal medley of  Christmas music with a full orchestra, “Christmas Eve (Sarajevo 12/24)” has since gone on to become something of a holiday phenomenon.  As it stands right now, the track is the second most popular Christmas song of the modern age; only Mariah Carey's “All I Want for Christmas is You” has kept it from topping the list of all time biggest holiday singles.  The fact that such a monstrously big hit could have been made by a relatively unknown band is bewildering until one understands the circumstances concerning the song itself.

   Inspired by a story of a cellist playing Christmas carols in the centre of Bosnia's bombed-out capitol, Paul had shopped the idea of the song around to several other bands, including Heaven and Scorpions, both of whom passed on the idea of a heavy metal Christmas track, before bringing the song to Savatage.  Jon Oliva was initially none to impressed with the original demo, and heavily reworked the song to make it more metal and appropriate to the Savatage sound, a difficult process considering that Jon also had to re-write the orchestral sections as well, which frustrated the orchestra members to no end when they realized the man re-writing their parts could not even read music!  Ultimately, the orchestra was won over, and “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” would attract the interest of rock radio in the December of 1995, becoming (after “Edge of Thorns”) the second highest charting Savatage track on radio, a feat made all the more incredible considering that the band at first did not even intend to release the song as a single.  As it happened, the only thing that prevented the track from becoming an even bigger hit was the reluctance of more mainstream radio stations to play a song by an 80's metal band. 

   While “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” would reach only moderate success as a Savatage single, the way radio stations with less qualms about playing unfashionable music had just picked up the song with little to no prodding inspired Paul O'Neill to write a Christmas rock opera that was later released under the name “Trans-Siberian Orchestra”; in reality Savatage with a multitude of guest singers.  “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” was taken unaltered from the Dead Winter Dead sessions and included as the centrepiece of the new project's debut record, Christmas Eve and Other Stories, this time released properly as a single with an accompanying video.  The record would go triple platinum in the United States alone.  While the band was certainly happy to finally be experiencing some real success, the fact that it was accomplished under a different name, and with a Savatage song no less, would always annoy Jon Oliva immensely.  The ease with which Trans-Siberian Orchestra was able to break through to mainstream stardom when Savatage had struggled for over a decade would be the first indication to Jon Oliva that perhaps Savatage itself was unmarketable.  “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” was a great triumph, but the fact that a whole new band identity needed to be created to make it into such a success boded ill for the continuation of Savatage as a band and brand name.

   As “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” completes it's majestic fade out, a gentle piano melody and Zak's soft voice bring in the album's closing track, “Not What You See”.  At long last, our star-crossed protagonists meet and realize how nonsensical war really is, and seek to make a new life for themselves elsewhere.  The song builds back up though a second assault of counterpoint vocals to a to a glorious Al Pitrelli solo.  Endearing and heartfelt, “Not What You See” ends Dead Winter Dead in true Broadway fashion, and, as with so many tracks from the album as a whole, provides a foretaste of what we would later experience with Trans-Siberian Orchestra.

   It would be difficult to properly explain exactly just how critical Dead Winter Dead was, and not just for Savatage.  The impact of this single album was manifold and profound, and would have significant repercussions on the world of Savatage, and rock music in general, in the years to come.  As far as Savatage is concerned, the album had three immediate effects.  The first was that the band would be catapulted into superstar status in Europe.  While the band had long since enjoyed a strong following on the European continent, Dead Winter Dead took them to a whole new level.  By the end of the decade, European metalheads would be speaking of Savatage in the same breath with such legendary bands as Metallica and Iron Maiden.  Much of the wider world outside America would follow Europe's lead, and Savatage found themselves in a position to play, and often headline, some of the largest rock and metal festivals on the planet.  Beyond North America, Savatage became a force to be reckoned with, and had reached a level of respect and reverence that would continue long after Savatage had ceased recording and touring.

   The second effect Dead Winter Dead had on Savatage was that it led directly to the birth of Trans-Siberian Orchestra.  While that project had existed on paper for a couple years prior,  “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” provided both the inspiration and the opportunity to bring TSO to life.  The monumental success of the song when released as TSO's first single finally gave Savatage a vast amount of genuine, and lasting, mainstream attention in the States, albeit indirectly.  The fact that Savatage had found it necessary to release their music under a different name to reach American listeners would create a mixed legacy for Savatage in their home country.  While the success of TSO was certainly welcomed, it left Savatage in the predicament of having to be two bands at the same time.   For a while, the members of Savatage were able to alternate between their commitments as TSO and their responsibilities as  Savatage, particularly in the early years when TSO was a studio only project.  Once Paul, after some prodding, made the decision to take TSO out on the road, however, the ability to allocate an appropriate amount of time to Savatage became compromised.  The debut of TSO as a touring entity occurred concurrently with a new series of lineup changes within Savatage which would, among other considerations, have disastrous effects on the very existence of Savatage.

   The third effect Dead Winter Dead had upon Savatage, and TSO as well, was that it saw the band become tightly bound to the symphonic rock opera formula established on that record.  From Hall of the Mountain King up through Dead Winter Dead, each successive album had seen Savatage explore brave new musical worlds, with no two albums possessing quite the same sound or following the same format.  The colossal success of Dead Winter Dead in Europe and beyond, as well as the even greater success of TSO in America, would see Paul and Jon become remarkably committed to writing only rock operas.  The following Savatage album, The Wake of Magellan, as well as each and every single TSO record, would all follow the outline that had been established on Dead Winter Dead.  Even when the band made an attempt to break the mold and return to more metal landscapes on the twelfth Savatage album, Poets and Madmen, the effort would seem half-hearted as the band stuck primarily to their tried and true rock opera sound and format.  Savatage's songwriting would continue to be just as strong and awe-inspiring as ever, but it would also become increasingly more reluctant to experiment any further away from a sound that had proven to be so successful.  Jon Oliva would only learn to take greater musical risks again once he had started an entirely new band, Jon Oliva's Pain, that was free of both the Savatage and TSO names, and the expectations those names carried.  In that regard, Dead Winter Dead marks the culmination of Savatage's creative evolution.  While the records that would follow would continue to be excellent, and each would add it's own unique flavour to the Dead Winter Dead formula, the boldness with which Savatage had braved new musical territory on each album was now absent, leading some fans to feel that Savatage had begun to sound a bit stagnant and formulaic compared to what had come before.

   As for the impact Dead Winter Dead made on the wider world of rock music, we can only speculate, but there is a lot of evidence to indicate that the influence of the album reached quite far.  In Europe and elsewhere, the album would have a profound influence on the development of symphonic and power metal.  While the roots of these genres had already been solidly established by Helloween, Yngwie Malmsteen, and even on earlier works by Savatage themselves, Dead Winter Dead took the music to an entirely new level.  It cannot be coincidence that power metal became increasingly more symphonic after 1995.  Bands such as Stratovarius, Edguy and Rhapsody (of Fire) would all adopt much of the rich symphonic bombast Savatage had pioneered on Dead Winter Dead, and a plethora of power metal rock opera projects, such as Avantasia, would soon follow in their wake.  Even the female fronted operatic bands that first began to take off in the late 90's, such as Nightwish and Within Temptation, are not entirely free of Savatage influence.  Savatage may not necessarily deserve all the credit; groups such as Therion and Ayreon, as well as some of the afore mentioned bands, all contributed to varying degrees in the development of European symphonic and power metal.  But considering the vast popularity Savatage enjoyed in Europe after Dead Winter Dead, it would be impossible to believe that their influence was not considerable.

   In the US, the sudden success of Trans-Siberian Orchestra prompted a wave of imitators.  By the turn of the millennium, well established rock and metal acts such as Metallica and Scorpions would be dabbling in symphonic territory, with KISS not to far behind.  While Savatage/TSO would never be properly given the credit, it is highly unlikely mainstream acts such as these would have taken the risk of working with orchestras, particularly at a time when mainstream American rock was moving strongly in the direction of a more stripped down and simplified approach, had TSO not broken down the barriers first.  Indeed, it is entirely possible that TSO may have been the band that turned the tide against the post 80's backlash that had stigmatized guitar solos and technicality in American rock music.  Alongside the sudden resurgence of rock-orchestra projects and traditional metal in America that would take shape at the dawn of the new millennium, a slew of rock and metal holiday albums also followed in the footsteps of  “Christmas Eve (Sarajevo 12/24)”.  It is doubtful such 80's metal icons as Dee Snider or Stephen Pearcy, among others, would have ever considered doing holiday albums until TSO had proved that there was money to be made by giving Christmas a heavy metal makeover.  The 90's were a tough time for 80's metal musicians in America, but TSO had shown that there was a way even a relatively obscure 80's heavy metal band such a Savatage could continue to be relevant and profitable in the post grunge landscape.

   Of course, much of this is speculation.  There is no way to prove that Savatage, thanks to Dead Winter Dead and the Trans-Siberian Orchestra project that it spawned, had such a vast impact on the world of rock and metal.  But, as the saying goes, the universe is rarely so lazy to provide coincidences.  When one recalls how vehemently minimalist American rock had become in the wake of grunge, and how many established metal acts either shamelessly jumped on the bandwagon or simply broke up in the face of such a challenge, it leaves one to wonder how exactly the tide was turned.  Perhaps it began with all the young people who discovered the thrill of an 80's metal guitar solo thanks to some heavy metal Christmas song that they heard every December.  Perhaps that song opened them up a world of music that they otherwise may never have explored, music that then encouraged some to pick up a guitar themselves.

   Perhaps Savatage gave a whole new generation of aspiring musicians the greatest Christmas present of all...

   Inspiration...


« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 06:33:20 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline TAC

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #272 on: October 26, 2015, 06:11:50 PM »
WOW, that was a mouthful! Very bummed to check my iPod to see that I do not have DWD on it.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline bl5150

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #273 on: October 26, 2015, 06:20:26 PM »
I agree about the acknowledgement that Savatage deserve from the symphonic metal brigade but this is where my interest in new Savatage material began to wane.   I think DWD is my lowest ranked album aside from Fight For The Rock and it's likely why I have taken very limited interest in TSO.  And it's no surprise I suppose given that I place limited  value on concepts.

I haven't listened to it in ages but looking at my song ratings from years ago I had a few tracks of limited interest ,plenty of solid ones and only This Is The Time really getting me going.   it has a real Streets vibe to it from memory.

I thought The Wake of Magellan was a step up , with the individual songs having more appeal over all. 
"I would just like to say that after all these years of heavy drinking, bright lights and late nights, I still don't need glasses. I drink right out of the bottle." - DLR

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Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #274 on: October 26, 2015, 06:32:32 PM »
Man that's a writeup.  I was all for every Savatage era and this one and Magellan I found very appealing.  The symphonic elements, Al's playing, Jon back on the vox for a couple of tunes and really just a cracking album, I love it to be honest.  There is nothing subpar here.  My favs are; This is the Time, Starlight, Doesn't Matter Anyway, One Child, title track and This is Where You Should Be.  So just half the damn album.   :lol

The only thing I wished was that Al seemed to handle 90% of the leads on this and Magellan.  I wish they were more evenly split, and I think the title track here was the only Caffery solo.  Am I right DM, and do you know why that is?  I always thought because Caffery would handle all of Criss' solos live, so it would kind of split them evenly in a live setting.  Could be way off though.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #275 on: October 26, 2015, 06:48:53 PM »
The only thing I wished was that Al seemed to handle 90% of the leads on this and Magellan.  I wish they were more evenly split, and I think the title track here was the only Caffery solo.  Am I right DM, and do you know why that is?  I always thought because Caffery would handle all of Criss' solos live, so it would kind of split them evenly in a live setting.  Could be way off though.

I'm honestly not sure, as I don't think the band has ever mentioned who performed which solos on DWD.  When I listened to the album today while writing the review, certain solos sounded distinctively like Caffery's while other sounded more like Pitrelli's.  I can't remember off the top of my head which solos were on which songs, but in the most general terms, it seems that Caffery was favoured for the more metal songs while Pitrelli was favoured for the ballads.  I'm not 100% certain about that, though.

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #276 on: October 26, 2015, 06:52:58 PM »
When discovering the albums at the time, I was just learning guitar and wasn't the greatest at being able to tell who played what with most bands, once I perfected it, these albums were on the back burner.  I don't know how I came to that conclusion then, but what you're saying makes sense.  I'm gonna listen again tonight and try and work it out.
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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - What's the going price of innocence?...
« Reply #277 on: October 26, 2015, 08:03:03 PM »
Looking forward to it! And take the opportunity to say that I've been enjoying your writing in this thread a lot lately. DWD is my favourite album by the band as well.

Welcome, and thank you!  It's always great to see a new Savatage fan on the forums!

WOW, that was a mouthful! Very bummed to check my iPod to see that I do not have DWD on it.

You should really fix that.

Offline ZirconBlue

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #278 on: October 27, 2015, 08:44:32 AM »
As it happened, the only thing that prevented the track from becoming an even bigger hit was the reluctance of more mainstream radio stations to play a song by an 80's metal band. 

   While “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” would reach only moderate success as a Savatage single, the way radio stations with less qualms about playing unfashionable music had just picked up the song with little to no prodding inspired Paul O'Neill to write a Christmas rock opera that was later released under the name “Trans-Siberian Orchestra”; in reality Savatage with a multitude of guest singers.  “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” was taken unaltered from the Dead Winter Dead sessions and included as the centrepiece of the new project's debut record, Christmas Eve and Other Stories, this time released properly as a single with an accompanying video.  The record would go triple platinum in the United States alone.  While the band was certainly happy to finally be experiencing some real success, the fact that it was accomplished under a different name, and with a Savatage song no less, would always annoy Jon Oliva immensely.  The ease with which Trans-Siberian Orchestra was able to break through to mainstream stardom when Savatage had struggled for over a decade would be the first indication to Jon Oliva that perhaps Savatage itself was unmarketable.  “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” was a great triumph, but the fact that a whole new band identity needed to be created to make it into such a success boded ill for the continuation of Savatage as a band and brand name.

This is why, when someone says something like "That new Dream Theater (or Queensryche, etc.) song could be a hit if it it's marketed correctly," they are usually wrong.  The radio programmers already have an idea of these bands as has-beens, and often won't even listen to the song in question before deciding they're not going to play it.  It's very rare for a band whose popularity has waned to get a second chance.

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: The Savatage Discography - Where this all has led...
« Reply #279 on: October 27, 2015, 10:35:54 AM »
This is why, when someone says something like "That new Dream Theater (or Queensryche, etc.) song could be a hit if it it's marketed correctly," they are usually wrong.  The radio programmers already have an idea of these bands as has-beens, and often won't even listen to the song in question before deciding they're not going to play it.  It's very rare for a band whose popularity has waned to get a second chance.

Yes and no.  It depends a lot on content (the band and their music) and context (the timing of the release relative to both the point in the band's career and the current state of popular music).  However, I do think Savatage had a decent shot at a big hit in 1995, and here's why:

As it was, the song did rather well, even in 1995.  It tends to get overlooked, but  “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” did get a decent amount of airplay when released as Savatage.  Part of the problem, I think, is that aside from the resistance that some more mainstream radio stations displayed against playing music from an 80's metal band, there was also the fact that Savatage was completely unprepared to support it as a single.  They did not, at least at first, plan on sending it out to radio stations as a promo single, nor did they shoot a video for the song.  It was only after some college rock and dedicated hard rock stations started playing  “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” on their own that Savatage realized the potential the song had as a single.  But by the time the band noticed the attention the song was getting, it was already only a little more then a week before Christmas 1995.  They had no time to shoot a video or promote the song as a single, let alone cajole more radio stations into playing it, with Christmas only a week away.  And once Christmas had come and gone, no one would be interested in playing the song anymore. 

That was the single biggest mistake Savatage made in promoting Dead Winter Dead, and maybe even in their entire careers.  The best potential hit they had was a holiday song, and they were completely unprepared to promote it until the holiday season was almost over.

That was why they re-released the song a year later as Trans-Siberian Orchestra.  Not only did the new name allow them to avoid the stigma of being an 80's metal band, but since it was, officially, a different band, they could get away with releasing the same song they had as Savatage the year before.  And in 1996, they already knew the potential  “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” had to be a hit, and they were ready, with promotional singles, a music video, television spots, everything.  Also, beyond whatever reticence radio shown to Savatage, it was believed that the existent Savatage fanbase would not buy a Savatage Christmas record.  That was another reason why they chose to do TSO.  It not only allowed them to transcend the preconcieved notions of the radio programmers, but of their own fans as well.

But consider this: even as unprepared as they were in 1995, Dead Winter Dead actually managed to beat the chart positions of Edge of Thorns in America, making it the highest charting record they ever had in the States.  And even with some radio stations not wanting to play the song, “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” was still their second biggest hit on radio in America after "Edge of Thorns", even before it had been re-released as TSO, and even after only getting a couple weeks of airplay.  I think if Savatage had been fully prepared to promote “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” as a single at the start of the holiday season in 1995 with a video, promos, and a full marketing blitz, they could have made it work.  Given enough time, I think Paul could have used his contacts and leverage in the music industry and at Atlantic to get more radio stations to play the song.  I'm not sure if they would have become as big as TSO are now, but I think they actually had one last shot at breaking big in America. 

But they were unprepared and taken by surprise, and they never had that opportunity again.  At least not as Savatage.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 03:59:22 PM by The Dark Master »