Author Topic: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?  (Read 1478 times)

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Offline Chino

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Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« on: July 27, 2015, 09:52:39 AM »
This is becoming an issue in my home state.

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The high volume of illegal aliens applying for driver’s licenses in the state is causing significant delays in citizens’ ability to obtain appointments for their driver’s permits and licenses. The number of illegal aliens applying for driver’s licenses in the state was initially estimated to be about 55,000 over the next three years, but there have been that number of applications since January 1 when the law was put in effect

https://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/26/connecticut-dmv-delays-due-to-onslaught-of-illegal-aliens-driver-license-applications/

Serious question. Why are they being issued driver's licenses in the first place? I'd like to get a answer deeper than 'the people in charge are securing future votes'. I'm looking for the actual rationale behind this.

Connecticut is slowly becoming the toilet bowl of New England. Anyone with money is fleeing this state the second they retire, many people in my age bracket are moving to states like North Carolina and Tennessee as soon as they finish school, and the few large corporations that are still here probably won't be two or three decades from now. Why are we encouraging people with literally nothing to offer, who are just going to end up needing stuff, to come to this state? It's like we are advertising that this is where illegals should come take refuge. I don't get it. We estimate 55,000 illegals would need a license over the next three years, and we've seen more than that in the first 7 months. How many more are going to show up because of this?

I'm really not trying to be an asshole about this, but I feel like I'm definitely coming off that way. I'm all for helping people, and if CT was in the green financially, I'd be less opposed to trying to help these people. Last I read, CT is something like $113B in debt. Our cities are already filled with enough people who need assistance. Purposefully encouraging more is only going to more quickly convince people like me to leave here.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 10:33:15 AM by Chino »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2015, 09:57:08 AM »
I don't think you are, and it is a fair question, because it is an example of the actions running afoul of the rationale. 

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2015, 10:19:55 AM »
The question you should be asking is why they're not being deported. If they're not going to be deported, then making sure they meet the basic requirements for driving, making them pay the fee, getting a thumbprint and assigning them a unique identifier only makes sense.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2015, 10:40:10 AM »
But its not every state that this is allowed right?  I recall when I worked with some illegals at Saladworks they would go down to Maryland to get their drivers licenses since they could not in NJ.  What I don't understand is, if they are illegal then they likely don't have the paperwork to get an ID right?  How do they prove their age and residence?  Maybe that is part of the reason they couldn't get one in NJ, the paperwork required they dont have?  I am not sure.

Offline Chino

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2015, 10:56:29 AM »
The question you should be asking is why they're not being deported. If they're not going to be deported, then making sure they meet the basic requirements for driving, making them pay the fee, getting a thumbprint and assigning them a unique identifier only makes sense.

I get this, and that looks like the reasoning behind it according to this quote I found;
Quote
"There are many undocumented immigrants driving without a driver's license who aren’t insured or registered, and we believe making that possible is very important,"
said Mike Lawlor, Connecticut's undersecretary for criminal justice policy and planning.

https://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/26/us-usa-connecticut-immigration-licenses-idUSKCN0JA2AN20141126

So they are registered and insured then? How are they paying for insurance? With some under the table income? If I got caught earning a living and not paying taxes, the IRS would be elbow deep in me. Where is the insurance coming from?

Offline TL

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2015, 10:58:29 AM »
I somehow doubt that undocumented immigrants are flooding into Connecticut just because they're able to get a driver's license there. If they're living in Connecticut and are applying for a license there, I'd guess the vast majority of them were already living there anyway.

I'm not sure why you assume that most/all of these people are drains on society or are going to be mooching on government assistance. If anything, I would think their undocumented status would significantly limit their access to government services. Do you have some sort of credible statistical information to suggest that a significant number of these people aren't working and providing for themselves? Why do you just assume these people have nothing to offer? How do you know these people are going to 'just end up needing stuff'? It seems like a series of very dangerous assumptions.

If people with money and young people fresh out of school are leaving the state en masse, that seems to suggest a different, much larger problem or set of problems. Complaining about undocumented immigrants getting driver's licenses just seems like a distraction and a scapegoat.

Online El Barto

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2015, 11:58:49 AM »
The question you should be asking is why they're not being deported. If they're not going to be deported, then making sure they meet the basic requirements for driving, making them pay the fee, getting a thumbprint and assigning them a unique identifier only makes sense.

I get this, and that looks like the reasoning behind it according to this quote I found;
Quote
"There are many undocumented immigrants driving without a driver's license who aren’t insured or registered, and we believe making that possible is very important,"
said Mike Lawlor, Connecticut's undersecretary for criminal justice policy and planning.

https://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/26/us-usa-connecticut-immigration-licenses-idUSKCN0JA2AN20141126

So they are registered and insured then? How are they paying for insurance? With some under the table income? If I got caught earning a living and not paying taxes, the IRS would be elbow deep in me. Where is the insurance coming from?
Actually a surprising number of illegals pay taxes. Federal is a bit easier to skip out on, but even then many still do. Either they get a taxpayer ID or they steel credentials. The latter is actually better for all since they have their taxes withheld but can't reap any of the benefits. And since it's come up, that's another reason to give them DL's. You need an ID to get an ITPID.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2015, 01:02:11 PM »
I'm not sure why you assume that most/all of these people are drains on society or are going to be mooching on government assistance. If anything, I would think their undocumented status would significantly limit their access to government services. Do you have some sort of credible statistical information to suggest that a significant number of these people aren't working and providing for themselves? Why do you just assume these people have nothing to offer? How do you know these people are going to 'just end up needing stuff'? It seems like a series of very dangerous assumptions.

???  What specific danger are you referring to?
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Online El Barto

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2015, 01:20:30 PM »
The continued increase and expansion of xenophobic distrust and paranoia, I reckon.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2015, 07:40:20 AM »
I somehow doubt that undocumented immigrants are flooding into Connecticut just because they're able to get a driver's license there. If they're living in Connecticut and are applying for a license there, I'd guess the vast majority of them were already living there anyway.

I'm not sure why you assume that most/all of these people are drains on society or are going to be mooching on government assistance. If anything, I would think their undocumented status would significantly limit their access to government services. Do you have some sort of credible statistical information to suggest that a significant number of these people aren't working and providing for themselves? Why do you just assume these people have nothing to offer? How do you know these people are going to 'just end up needing stuff'? It seems like a series of very dangerous assumptions.

When the call comes in to "911", I know for a fact that the dispatcher does NOT ask "Is either the perp or the victim documented?  Have they adequately paid up their responsibility to state and government?".  Also, the roads in CT that have been repaired using federal funds do not have automatic sensors that preclude undocumented illegals from using them.

So they don't get Social Security; that doesn't mean they are not availing themselves of government services without "paying" for them.

(And Chino, no smart comments about the roadways in CT.  ;) )

Quote
If people with money and young people fresh out of school are leaving the state en masse, that seems to suggest a different, much larger problem or set of problems. Complaining about undocumented immigrants getting driver's licenses just seems like a distraction and a scapegoat.

Of course there is more going on, but I don't think Chino was relating the two, only pointing out that a valuable source of tax income is depleting itself on a daily basis, though that is up to him to clarify.  I have a friend who actively works in state government here in CT, and even SHE is dreaming of Virginia.   She is a Democrat (I'm not) and it does lead to some amusing conversations between us.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2015, 07:49:55 AM »
I guess my obvious question is, if you are going to go through the effort of getting the DL, why not go through the effort of getting "legal"?

Offline Cedar redaC

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2015, 08:01:00 AM »
I guess my obvious question is, if you are going to go through the effort of getting the DL, why not go through the effort of getting "legal"?

This is it. Yes, I understand that becoming a citizen/getting a visa/obtaining other legal passage can be a more time-consuming and difficult pursuit, but if you desire to live in another country, it only follows that you should abide the laws of said country. That said,  it ought to be easier to legally enter the country.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2015, 08:58:27 AM »
Quote
If people with money and young people fresh out of school are leaving the state en masse, that seems to suggest a different, much larger problem or set of problems. Complaining about undocumented immigrants getting driver's licenses just seems like a distraction and a scapegoat.

Of course there is more going on, but I don't think Chino was relating the two, only pointing out that a valuable source of tax income is depleting itself on a daily basis, though that is up to him to clarify.  I have a friend who actively works in state government here in CT, and even SHE is dreaming of Virginia.   She is a Democrat (I'm not) and it does lead to some amusing conversations between us.

Correct. I was in no way implying that incoming immigrants were driving current residents away. I was trying to make the point that the people who have money to pump into this economy are leaving in droves (primarily because of insane taxes with nothing to show for it) and the only people that seem to be coming here are those  that can't even come close to filling the gap being left by those leaving. You might call this an assumption or say that I'm being judgmental, and I'm sure there are a few that might succeed, but if Waterbury, Bridgeport, and New Haven are any indicator, many of these people can't even understand basic English sentences let alone speak the language in any discernible way. Even if they found work, it's going to be at low paying retail places. Compare all of those salaries to the thousands of $60K+ per year tech/business jobs that have left our major cities.


If you're at all interested, here's a pretty great write up on Forbes.

How Did Rich Connecticut Morph Into One Of America's Worst Performing Economies?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimpowell/2013/08/01/how-did-rich-connecticut-morph-into-one-of-americas-worst-performing-economies/

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Despite these attractions, during the past two decades some 300,000 more Connecticut residents have moved out of the state than have moved in.  This compares with the current population of about 3.5 million.
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Connecticut ranks #50 – the worst — in annual economic growth.  According to the Department of Commerce’s Bureau of Economic Analysis, Connecticut’s economy contracted for the second year in a row.
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What Connecticut politicians failed to do was focus on making their jurisdictions as attractive as possible to investors and entrepreneurs, so there would be a continuing influx of new jobs.  Among other things, this means reducing the cost of doing business for everyone, large and small – prospective newcomers as well as investors and entrepreneurs already in the state.

Instead of doing that, Connecticut politicians have gone on spending sprees in an effort to enhance their re-election prospects.  The spending sprees necessitated higher taxes that increased the cost of doing business and helped drive away potential investors and entrepreneurs.
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Nor has there been gasoline tax relief.  Connecticut has the highest gasoline taxes in New England (45 cents per gallon), compared with Rhode Island’s 33 cents per gallon, Maine’s 31.5 cents, Vermont’s 26.7 cents, Massachusetts’ 23.5 cents and New Hampshire’s 19.6 cents.
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Meanwhile, Connecticut income taxes continue to go up, and Connecticut taxes generally are multiplying.  According to the Yankee Institute, 2011 was a banner year when Democrats – who now control both the governor’s mansion and the legislature – pushed through 77 tax hikes.
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Connecticut’s tax base is eroding as more and more people conclude there’s a better future someplace else.

For decades, Hartford has been known as a major center of the U.S. insurance business and a bulwark of Connecticut’s economy.  But many insurance jobs have moved out of Hartford to the suburbs, other insurance jobs have left Connecticut, and some unexpected rivals have emerged as industry leaders.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 09:52:13 AM by Chino »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2015, 12:10:44 PM »
And it will only get worse, before it gets better.  I like Malloy, though his arrogance is really showing through lately.  He badly over-played his hand on the GE thing, and we have finally found the line separating the "rich doing their fair share" and "the rich underwriting the whole kit and caboodle", and frankly, they're tired of it.   And it isn't even the rich; it's that next level of income that are being raked over the coals.

It is also why I am watching the recent healthcare mergers very closely, since all the big players have a healthy presence in Connecticut (CIGNA and Aetna particularly) and all indications are that none of those positions are guaranteed, or even considered moderately safe.

Offline Chino

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2015, 12:38:15 PM »
And again, the fact that Chino is talking about illegal immigration (for a state that has a fraction compared to a border state or worse, border metropolis) and taxes makes me raise an eyebrow.

I don't really get this. Have I given off the vibe that I'm completely content with letting anyone just wander their way into the US? CT might not have as many in number as border states, but percentage wise, we are a lot closer.



According to that map (at least in 2012), roughly 3.6% of CT's population is illegal compared to 6% in Texas, 4.5% in Arizona, and 3.5% in New Mexico.

It is also why I am watching the recent healthcare mergers very closely, since all the big players have a healthy presence in Connecticut (CIGNA and Aetna particularly) and all indications are that none of those positions are guaranteed, or even considered moderately safe.

This concerns me as well, especially the Cigna thing. I went to a two day long interview there back in November and didn't get hired. I'm kind of glad about that now. I have several friends that work there are very uncertain about their future once Cigna is fully integrated into Anthem. 

Don't forget about Travelers and United Healthcare. Cigna is out of Bloomfield, but Travelers and United Healthcare are all in the heart of Hartford (Aetna and The Hartford are on the outskirts). If either Travelers or United Healthcare decided to pack up shop and move to another state, Hartford would be very seriously impacted. Travelers has nearly 7000 people in Hartford and United Healthcare has already talked openly about relocating at least 2000 people out of Hartford. 

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2015, 01:39:25 PM »
That said,  it ought to be easier to legally enter the country.

Why?  There seems to be a trend that if a certain law is being broken, the answer is to water down or get rid of the law.  Why not require real value added to gain citizenship.

Further, let's evaluate an immigrants process.  Let's say ever since you can remember you dreamed of moving to America (France).  You realize it will take some work to accomplish.  Over that period of time, do you decide to a) learn English (French) as best you can prior to arriving, b) just wait until you get there to learn it or c) go there and never learn it or so little of it so communication requires separate forms, hand gestures, cave paintings (I mean drawings) and then an interpreter or close with a shoulder shrug.
You're conflating lifelong ambition with sheer necessity. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Pedro's childhood dream wasn't to pick tomatoes 10 hours a day and sleep in a shed in Ventura County.

That aside, I think we're getting closer to your first point, but I'm not sure we're there yet. Demanding added value for immigration isn't unreasonable, but it's not the way this country has ever worked. While I think that time might come, it should come as a result of resource necessity. Space certainly isn't a problem. Food isn't. Fuel isn't. Jobs aren't, since the migrants fill an undesirable chunk of the spectrum. Water will be, though. When it gets to the point that resources force a curtailment of immigration, then I'll be alright with it and the value added distinction will be fine.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2015, 05:42:02 PM »
That said,  it ought to be easier to legally enter the country.

Why?  There seems to be a trend that if a certain law is being broken, the answer is to water down or get rid of the law.  Why not require real value added to gain citizenship.
That aside, I think we're getting closer to your first point, but I'm not sure we're there yet. Demanding added value for immigration isn't unreasonable, but it's not the way this country has ever worked. While I think that time might come, it should come as a result of resource necessity. Space certainly isn't a problem. Food isn't. Fuel isn't. Jobs aren't, since the migrants fill an undesirable chunk of the spectrum. Water will be, though. When it gets to the point that resources force a curtailment of immigration, then I'll be alright with it and the value added distinction will be fine.

We ARE there.   I can name ten examples off the top of my head, most notably the drug laws that incarcerate people.  Jails overpopulated?   Change the law and let the offenders off.    Please.  I get that the drug laws are not indicative of where we want to be as a society, but the fact is, they knew the law when they acted and they broke the law.  They belong in jail.  I don't get to decide when I act whether what I'm doing SHOULD be legal or not (and argue the same later).  I have to deal with the laws as they are NOW, not commit the crime, and try to change the laws in a legal manner.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2015, 06:30:37 PM »
Water already is.  We are dealing with it in California right now.

Yes, but current drought aside, the supply problem is more of an allocation issue than anything.  There SHOULD be enough water to go around in this country for a long, long time.  But our reclamation infrastructure and how we deal with water allocation overall is just an inadequate, outdated system that doesn't work.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2015, 06:18:55 AM »
Water already is.  We are dealing with it in California right now.

Yes, but current drought aside, the supply problem is more of an allocation issue than anything.  There SHOULD be enough water to go around in this country for a long, long time.  But our reclamation infrastructure and how we deal with water allocation overall is just an inadequate, outdated system that doesn't work.

Unless we figure out how to make the desalination process cheaper, I think water availability is going to be a very real problem regardless of how good we are at allocating it. Humans need water for things other than drinking and flushing away poo. The amount of water needed for food is scary.

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Re: Why are we giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2015, 08:21:50 AM »
Water already is.  We are dealing with it in California right now.

Yes, but current drought aside, the supply problem is more of an allocation issue than anything.  There SHOULD be enough water to go around in this country for a long, long time.  But our reclamation infrastructure and how we deal with water allocation overall is just an inadequate, outdated system that doesn't work.

Unless we figure out how to make the desalination process cheaper, I think water availability is going to be a very real problem regardless of how good we are at allocating it. Humans need water for things other than drinking and flushing away poo. The amount of water needed for food is scary.
We discussed this a while back. What's needed is the ability to handle black and gray water separately. We don't need to be flushing toilets and washing cars with potable water. Unfortunately, that's an infrastructure matter and those take forever to come into play, assuming you can get people to agree to them in the first place.
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