Official NHL 2015-2016 Thread

[TheCountOfNYC]

Nice win for the Sharks. I hope they force a game 7 and win it 

[kaos2900]

Wow, Jones played out of his mind. That being said, if the Pens offense plays like that again it's going to be really hard for the Sharks to win 3 in a row. I expect the Sharks to win the next game to force a game 7. As much as I hope they win the cup it's going to be a tall order to win game in Pittsburg.

[mikeyd23]

Wow, Jones played out of his mind. That being said, if the Pens offense plays like that again it's going to be really hard for the Sharks to win 3 in a row.

Yup. Murray let in one soft one (the first one) and Jones stood on his head. That was the difference in this one. The Pens offense was generating unlimited chances and completely dominated the second and third periods, just couldn't finish. I'm confident if the Pens keep playing at that level, the Sharks will not win three in a row on them.

[Hyperplex]

On a much sadder note, RIP Mr. Hockey.

https://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/16096859/hockey-legend-gordie-howe-dies-88

[mikeyd23]

Wow, RIP Gordie.

[KevShmev]

A true legend. Probably 2a along with Mario on the list of all-time greats. R.I.P. 

[gmillerdrake]

2a along with Mario 

I know the debate is pointless but I put Mario ahead of Grextzy every day of the week. He played in a much tougher NHL than the early years of 99. Have you watched some of the goals that he scored     Might as well have had a couple polar bears on defense and a trash can lid playing goal.

Anyway.....RIP Mr. Howe

[mikeyd23]

I know the debate is pointless but I put Mario ahead of Grextzy every day of the week.

Haha I was going to post the same thing... For a variety of reasons, I consider Mario number 1 of all time, with Wayne number 2.

[gmillerdrake]

I know the debate is pointless but I put Mario ahead of Grextzy every day of the week.

Haha I was going to post the same thing... For a variety of reasons, I consider Mario number 1 of all time, with Wayne number 2.

I get what 99 did for the sport....but like I said, all those points he scored early in his career were as soft as soft can get. there's no way to argue they weren't just Youtube 'Gretzy goals' or something along those lines and watch. Do the same for Lemieux. It's night and day IMO who is the better player....on top of the fact Mario missed a ton of time in his Prime thanks to cancer....and then came back!!

Thanks for what you did for hockey Wayne but Mario is #1! 

[KevShmev]

You guys are nuts.

99 is the best hockey player ever by far. It's not close. Take away every goal he ever scored and he'd still be the all-time points scorer. Oh, and he has the most goals ever, too.

[gmillerdrake]

You guys are nuts.

99 is the best hockey player ever by far. It's not close. Take away every goal he ever scored and he'd still be the all-time points scorer. Oh, and he has the most goals ever, too.

I get it Kev but my point is the majority of those points he scored were against cheese defense and horrific goaltending. It's the whole 'era' argument. I think Lemieux was a WAY better all around hockey player and just as, if not MORE offensively talented than 99. He had a much harder and more accurate shot by far and away.

[DragonAttack]

From someone who was old enough to see #9 on TV as a Red Wing, endured the management cluster f that allowed him to leave...having met him and his amazing wife Colleen eons ago at an autograph signing (DO read her wiki page), it is a somber day for all hockey fans. 

Instead of the usual pic, thought I'd throw something up here that always gives me a smile

[TheCountOfNYC]

2a along with Mario 

I know the debate is pointless but I put Mario ahead of Grextzy every day of the week. He played in a much tougher NHL than the early years of 99. Have you watched some of the goals that he scored     Might as well have had a couple polar bears on defense and a trash can lid playing goal.

Anyway.....RIP Mr. Howe

If Mario Lemieux had been able to stay healthy, there's a chance he would have at least matched Gretzky in stats and maybe even passed him. He was an all around better player but he simply didn't have the longevity that Wayne had.

[gmillerdrake]

2a along with Mario 

I know the debate is pointless but I put Mario ahead of Grextzy every day of the week. He played in a much tougher NHL than the early years of 99. Have you watched some of the goals that he scored     Might as well have had a couple polar bears on defense and a trash can lid playing goal.

Anyway.....RIP Mr. Howe

If Mario Lemieux had been able to stay healthy, there's a chance he would have at least matched Gretzky in stats and maybe even passed him. He was an all around better player but he simply didn't have the longevity that Wayne had.

....and he faced MUCH improved defense and goaltending. Like, he had to lift his shots and actually shoot the puck rather than just make the puck go in the general direction of the goal and have it go in half the time.

[KevShmev]

It's not like they played in different eras. Their careers overlapped except for five seasons. And Gretzky always outscored everyone by a ton, so it's not like it was easy for anyone to pile up points.

[Zantera]

I'd also put Mario over Gretzky but being a Penguins-fan I'm obviously slightly biased. To me, what Mario did despite all his health problems, playing that good while fighting cancer, it blows me away to this date. In contrast to Mario, Gretzky was fortunate to not suffer from as many health problems and the path to becoming a legend is definitely smoother without those road blocks. It's definitely a case of what was VS what could have been, and while I won't argue someone who thinks Gretzky was nr1, to me Mario was.

[mikeyd23]

It's not like they played in different eras. Their careers overlapped except for five seasons. And Gretzky always outscored everyone by a ton, so it's not like it was easy for anyone to pile up points.

Couple of things:

- While their eras did overlap the league was changing rapidly. Mario played in an era in which fewer goals were scored, making his offensive statistics all the more impressive.
- Mario actually averaged more points per game than Wayne did and more goals per game throughout his career. So Mario was a more productive player, he just had less time to play... So...
- I'd argue that Hodgkin's Disease robbed Mario of the chance to match Wayne's career stats. I believe he absolutely could have matched and/or passed Wayne in that regard if it wasn't for his health.
- The caliber of player Wayne played with (mostly toward the beginning of his career) was FAR greater than Mario.
- Five goals five different ways. 

[KevShmev]

That is incorrect to say that Mario averaged more points per game than Wayne. 1.92 to 1.88 in favor of 99.

As for what 66 could've done in the years he missed, that is irrelevant. Players are judged on what they did do, not what they could've done. It sucks that he missed that time, but luck when it comes to health and injuries is part of the equation, and 99 was definitely luckier in that regard.

Simply put, by just about objective measure, Gretzky is the Greatest. It's not close.

[mikeyd23]

That is incorrect to say that Mario averaged more points per game than Wayne. 1.92 to 1.88 in favor of 99.

Ah, I was wrong. Mario had a better goals per game not points per game. My bad!

[SchecterShredder]

- I'd argue that Hodgkin's Disease robbed Mario of the chance to match Wayne's career stats. I believe he absolutely could have matched and/or passed Wayne in that regard if it wasn't for his health.

Mario only missed 3 1/2 seasons, so even if you take his career average PPG (1.88) that gives him an extra 550 points. And that's assuming he could've maintained the same ridiculous production which isn't remotely realistic. So an extra 550 would give Mario a total of about 2,275 points which is still 600 less than Wayne. Even if you give him extra points under the argument that the back issues reduced his production, he still wouldn't even come close to 99's total points. Could Mario have passed Gretzky's goal total? Maybe. But nobody is ever going to touch his career points record, or the most goals in a season. The game is just too different now.

[TAC]

Taking nothing away from Lemiuex, but it's Gretzky all the way. Then Orr. Then Lemiuex.

[KevShmev]

That is incorrect to say that Mario averaged more points per game than Wayne. 1.92 to 1.88 in favor of 99.

Ah, I was wrong. Mario had a better goals per game not points per game. My bad!

What's really nuts is if you look at PPG all-time, no one else is even close to 99 and 66.

Mario only missed 3 1/2 seasons, so even if you take his career average PPG (1.88) that gives him an extra 550 points. And that's assuming he could've maintained the same ridiculous production which isn't remotely realistic. So an extra 550 would give Mario a total of about 2,275 points which is still 600 less than Wayne. Even if you give him extra points under the argument that the back issues reduced his production, he still wouldn't even come close to 99's total points. Could Mario have passed Gretzky's goal total? Maybe. But nobody is ever going to touch his career points record, or the most goals in a season. The game is just too different now.

Well said.  66 was freaking awesome; I can't imagine anyone thinking otherwise, but he simply was no 99. 

Heck, his best season would have been Gretzky's 5th best season.

Gretzky won EIGHT Hart Trophy's IN A ROW (and later, a 9th); Lemieux won three ever.

Gretzky was the scoring champion 10 times; Lemieux five times.

I could go on and on.   

If someone wants to argue that 66 was a slightly better goal scorer than 99 was, because his goals per game is slightly higher, have at it, but Gretzky was a playmaking machine, hence his million assists. Like I said earlier, he could have scored no goals EVER, and he would STILL be the current points leader in NHL history.  That's so ridiculously awesome, it boggles the mind.

[King Postwhore]

Simply put, my vote is for 99.

[gmillerdrake]

If I were starting a team and had my choice of either of them in their prime I'd take Lemeiux. 99 was awesome, I'll never argue he wasn't. But 66 was an all around better player.

99 was a man among boys and it showed in how soft the league was in his first few years. 66 played in a much tougher league IMO and the points/goals he earned were tougher to get IMO.

[Jarlaxle]

If you're basing off of individual skill, regardless of Era, then you could argue there are about a dozen players in the NHL now better than Mario or Gretzky ever were. The game is played at an absurd level, and if you plucked Gretzky from his prime as he was then I highly doubt he'd even put up 50 points right now. He was slow, but with the extra time and space he had (let alone the fact that everyone else wasn't nearly as good either) he was able to use his vision to put up huge points. It wouldn't work like that now. First shift he'd get drilled like Crosby, Kane and all the stars do now, and he'd be in the hospital. It's impossible to compare over generations. In Mario and Wayne's days there wasn't all this nutritional information or workout regiments, Mario smoked for Gods sake. Guys now are better athletes, but that's because they have to be. 

All that being said, if you took Mario in his prime as is and put him in skates now he'd still dominate, but not as much as Pavel Bure would, IMO.

[TAC]

Lemieux= Lebron. (Ok maybe that's not quite fair)

But....

Gretzky = Jordan.

[Nick]

I'm honestly surprised that there has been all the debate here, frankly I find Gretzky to be pretty untouchable.

[KevShmev]

He was untouchable.

Let's look at how much better he was than everyone else for a long time:

1980-1981: Gretzky had 164 points, 29 more than the 2nd place finisher.
1981-1982: Gretzky had 212 points, 65 more than the 2nd place finisher.
1982-1983: Gretzky had 196 points, 72 more than the 2nd place finisher.
1983-1984: Gretzky had 205 points, 79 more than the 2nd place finisher.
1984-1985: Gretzky had 208 points, 73 more than the 2nd place finisher.
1985-1986: Gretzky had 215 points, 74 more than the 2nd place finisher (Lemieux).
1986-1987: Gretzky had 183 points, 75 more than the 2nd place finisher.

That is SEVEN straight seasons of not only being the best player in the league, but being the best player by a massive distance. 

Lemieux did overtake Gretzky as the points leader in 1988 and 1989, besting him by 19 and 31 points, paltry margins when compared to what Gretzky was doing prior, but by the next season, Gretzky was back on top, leading the league again in points in three of the next five seasons.

If I were starting a team and had my choice of either of them in their prime I'd take Lemieux.

See, I don't get this.  Gretzky's prime was better than Lemieux's prime, but just about any measure you look at.  Again, 66's best season would have been 99's 5th best season (and their careers mostly overlapped enough to where it's not like comparing players from completely different eras, like how QBs nowadays obliterate the stats QBs put up 20-30 years ago in football), and 66 never lapped the competition when he was at his best like 99 did.  I am sorry to tell you this, my fellow St. Louisan, but if you would choose 66 over 99, that is choosing poorly.

[Hyperplex]

I'm with Kev on this. He's said all of what I would say already, so yeah.

[gmillerdrake]

He was untouchable.

Let's look at how much better he was than everyone else for a long time:

1980-1981: Gretzky had 164 points, 29 more than the 2nd place finisher.
1981-1982: Gretzky had 212 points, 65 more than the 2nd place finisher.
1982-1983: Gretzky had 196 points, 72 more than the 2nd place finisher.
1983-1984: Gretzky had 205 points, 79 more than the 2nd place finisher.
1984-1985: Gretzky had 208 points, 73 more than the 2nd place finisher.
1985-1986: Gretzky had 215 points, 74 more than the 2nd place finisher (Lemieux).
1986-1987: Gretzky had 183 points, 75 more than the 2nd place finisher.

That is SEVEN straight seasons of not only being the best player in the league, but being the best player by a massive distance. 

Lemieux did overtake Gretzky as the points leader in 1988 and 1989, besting him by 19 and 31 points, paltry margins when compared to what Gretzky was doing prior, but by the next season, Gretzky was back on top, leading the league again in points in three of the next five seasons.

If I were starting a team and had my choice of either of them in their prime I'd take Lemieux.

See, I don't get this.  Gretzky's prime was better than Lemieux's prime, but just about any measure you look at.  Again, 66's best season would have been 99's 5th best season (and their careers mostly overlapped enough to where it's not like comparing players from completely different eras, like how QBs nowadays obliterate the stats QBs put up 20-30 years ago in football), and 66 never lapped the competition when he was at his best like 99 did.  I am sorry to tell you this, my fellow St. Louisan, but if you would choose 66 over 99, that is choosing poorly.

Impressive stats indeed but he was playing against scrubs the entire time. It was like Jordan playing the 8th grade rec league players. The points he scored each season alone should verify how weak the league was at the time. 200+ points!? That's insane! Impressive certainly but it speaks to how weak the defense and goalies were then.

Lemieuxs career spanned an era where the goalies were night and day better and the defense was exponentially tougher. 99 in his prime would be a 2nd or 3rd line player in today's game. 66 would still be on the #1 line because of his size, grit and skill

[TAC]

Gary, how in the world can you call 80's players scrubs? They were not "Rec League" players. That's just nuts.

I went to many games in the old Garden in the 80's (including the '88 Finals game when the lights went out) and the league was every bit as tough as it was in the 90's.

[gmillerdrake]

Gary, how in the world can you call 80's players scrubs? They were not "Rec League" players. That's just nuts.

I went to many games in the old Garden in the 80's (including the '88 Finals game when the lights went out) and the league was every bit as tough as it was in the 90's.

Basing it off of watching YouTube clips of early Gretzty goals. The goaltending was horrific and the defense was apparently not important to worry about.

You all are probably correct. I'm not saying 99 wasn't awesome. He was. my POV is that 66 in his prime could play in today's league and still score 40 goals and be a viable first line player due to his size, physicality and being an all around player. 99 would be lucky to finish the season due to how physical it is and might reach 25 goals.

[TAC]

The goaltending was horrific and the defense was apparently not important to worry about.

Based on that Gordie Howe sucks. So does Bobby Orr.

  my POV is that 66 in his prime could play in today's league and still score 40 goals and be a viable first line player due to his size, physicality and being an all around player. 99 would be lucky to finish the season due to how physical it is and might reach 25 goals.

That's a legit take, but I would counter that with Lemieux was a lot softer than his size would indicate, and I would not question Gretzky's toughness. He was sneaky strong. And sneaky tough. I actually feel the opposite. Gretzky would be the one scoring 40 and Lemieux would be scoring 25. OK, I'd give Lemieux 30.

[gmillerdrake]

I love all of you 

[DragonAttack]

Howe would have knocked the snot out of Lemieux, and hooked Gretzky mercilessly.