Author Topic: The Confederate Flag Debate  (Read 8996 times)

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Online Chino

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #175 on: August 04, 2015, 07:11:29 AM »
You're absolutely right Stadler. I personally stumble in this thinking but it's something I'm trying to improve. The world would be a much better place if people stopped trying to force others that their beliefs are the right ones. I think it's kind of funny that this used to be one of the biggest complaints when it came to religious people. Now the anti-religious people are just as bad. What is it about human nature that wants to try so hard to be right? I think social media has done nothing but lead people to believe that their views are more important than others.

I will say this (and will likely get pushback), but one thing that social media has done is elevate the importance of "opinion" to that of "fact".  You need not be factually correct anymore, you just need a catchy way of articulating your point.

As long as the opinion is the popular one. It's majority rules now a days regardless of facts or lack there of. Climate Change comes to mind.

Like not having equal rights for gays because of all those facts in a book written by men who didn't know where the sun went at night? The majority making decisions with a lack of evidence or facts is arguably the lowest that it's ever been in the history of our species.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 07:47:47 AM by Chino »

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #176 on: August 04, 2015, 07:57:04 AM »
You're absolutely right Stadler. I personally stumble in this thinking but it's something I'm trying to improve. The world would be a much better place if people stopped trying to force others that their beliefs are the right ones. I think it's kind of funny that this used to be one of the biggest complaints when it came to religious people. Now the anti-religious people are just as bad. What is it about human nature that wants to try so hard to be right? I think social media has done nothing but lead people to believe that their views are more important than others.

I will say this (and will likely get pushback), but one thing that social media has done is elevate the importance of "opinion" to that of "fact".  You need not be factually correct anymore, you just need a catchy way of articulating your point.

As long as the opinion is the popular one. It's majority rules now a days regardless of facts or lack there of. Climate Change comes to mind.
There is no dearth of facts or science concerning climate change.
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Online Stadler

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #177 on: August 04, 2015, 08:07:55 AM »
You're absolutely right Stadler. I personally stumble in this thinking but it's something I'm trying to improve. The world would be a much better place if people stopped trying to force others that their beliefs are the right ones. I think it's kind of funny that this used to be one of the biggest complaints when it came to religious people. Now the anti-religious people are just as bad. What is it about human nature that wants to try so hard to be right? I think social media has done nothing but lead people to believe that their views are more important than others.

I will say this (and will likely get pushback), but one thing that social media has done is elevate the importance of "opinion" to that of "fact".  You need not be factually correct anymore, you just need a catchy way of articulating your point.

As long as the opinion is the popular one. It's majority rules now a days regardless of facts or lack there of. Climate Change comes to mind.

Like not having equal rights for gays because of all those facts in a book written by men who didn't know where the sun went at night? The majority making decisions with a lack of evidence or facts is arguably the lowest that it's ever been in the history of our species.

But so what?  Since when are there rules for HOW decisions are made?  That mentality - that people HAVE to consider the same facts you do - is really just a different way of saying what we're all saying: THE MOB RULES.     Facts don't mean shit even to people who are smart enough to consider them (just look at the way our education system is run; PhDs in education throwing money at the problem even though every piece of evidence points to that not being a successful strategy and only lining the administrators pockets.  Or gun control.  Look at Washington, DC.)  Don't get me started on facts.   There are plenty of "unpopular" opinions that don't have anything to do with te mentality you are talking about.

If your position is right, presumably over time it will be accepted as right.   It can't move too fast, though, because that's how things like Germany circa 1933 happen.   It is a process, and while it may make no sense to you and be excruciating to you, you are essentially asking people to abandon their entire world view and change every aspect of the way they think.   That doesn't happen overnight. 

Online Chino

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #178 on: August 04, 2015, 09:38:18 AM »
Quote
That mentality - that people HAVE to consider the same facts you do - is really just a different way of saying what we're all saying: THE MOB RULES

No it isn't. If we were deciding on something completely arbitrary like new colors on a flag, or what we want to call some new monument, and people were getting all rowdy over it, then yes, you could make the mob argument. Decisions like that are not rooted in fact, and it's people's personal desires and tastes that fuel those choices.

Yes people have to consider the same facts I do. Why? Because it is a fact and not an opinion. A fact is a thing that is indisputably the case. People that choose to ignore facts are wrong. There's no other way around it. That's why it's called a fact. Oil is highly flammable. That is a fact. If you want to leave a bucket of oil soaked rags next to an open fire because you aren't convinced that oil is flammable, you're going to have a bad time. Have fun burning your house down. If we share a condo complex, you can bet your ass that I'm going to raise hell if I saw irresponsibility like that. I don't care how much you believe you aren't putting my life and belongings at risk. You could argue until you are blue in the face about this, but it doesn't change the fact that a fact is a fact regardless of what you believe.


Online Stadler

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #179 on: August 04, 2015, 10:45:35 AM »
Quote
That mentality - that people HAVE to consider the same facts you do - is really just a different way of saying what we're all saying: THE MOB RULES

No it isn't. If we were deciding on something completely arbitrary like new colors on a flag, or what we want to call some new monument, and people were getting all rowdy over it, then yes, you could make the mob argument. Decisions like that are not rooted in fact, and it's people's personal desires and tastes that fuel those choices.

Yes people have to consider the same facts I do. Why? Because it is a fact and not an opinion. A fact is a thing that is indisputably the case. People that choose to ignore facts are wrong. There's no other way around it. That's why it's called a fact. Oil is highly flammable. That is a fact. If you want to leave a bucket of oil soaked rags next to an open fire because you aren't convinced that oil is flammable, you're going to have a bad time. Have fun burning your house down. If we share a condo complex, you can bet your ass that I'm going to raise hell if I saw irresponsibility like that. I don't care how much you believe you aren't putting my life and belongings at risk. You could argue until you are blue in the face about this, but it doesn't change the fact that a fact is a fact regardless of what you believe.

But whether any one fact is relevant or not is subject to opinion.   Of course you picked an obvious example, but what about those examples that aren't so clear?   Some people consider "I'm offended!" to be the same as "harm".   I personally don't think so.   So to me, to remove flags or words or whatever because some person somewhere is offended is not a suitable justification.   There are those that would argue with me.  The facts there are not in question.   

I can use whatever facts I feel are relevant to my decisions.  What are the "facts" regarding hunting?  Gay marriage?  Abortion?    One might argue that homosexuality should be accepted (not "tolerated") because it is "natural".  That would be a fact.   Except that so does psychopathy, and pedophilia.   But we don't accept OR tolerate those.   So why aren't the facts relevant there? 

The fact is, banning guns generally results in higher crime rates.  Yet listen to Obama and Biden spew about cracking down.  The fact is, throwing money at education doesn't result in higher performance from our children.  Yet listen to any union teacher moan about the "pathetic" pay of our educators (Google "Altressa Cox-Blackwell" for a phenomenal example of that factual knowledge gone awry).

Facts are tools.  You - or the mob - don't get to determine which facts I find relevant in a given argument or not. 

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #180 on: August 04, 2015, 11:40:31 AM »
The fact is, banning guns generally results in higher crime rates. 
Is this actually a fact?  I know that the U.S. has fairly lax gun laws compared to, well, the rest of the industrialized world, but we definitely have more citizens (and a higher percentage of citizens) doing time than anyone else.  Hard to see how those things go with your "fact."

The fact is, throwing money at education doesn't result in higher performance from our children. 
"Throwing money" isn't a strategy, so this isn't a fact.

Meanwhile, it IS a fact that continually cutting education budgets doesn't result in higher performance from our children, either.

Not picking a fight, just asking.
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Online Stadler

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #181 on: August 04, 2015, 12:14:00 PM »
The fact is, banning guns generally results in higher crime rates. 
Is this actually a fact?  I know that the U.S. has fairly lax gun laws compared to, well, the rest of the industrialized world, but we definitely have more citizens (and a higher percentage of citizens) doing time than anyone else.  Hard to see how those things go with your "fact."

The generally accepted statistic is "violent crimes", the theory being that said crimes are a good canary in a coal mine for both a crime one might commit with a gun as well as a crime that might be prevented knowing the other guy might have a gun.    Australia experienced that, and Washington DC banned hang guns and within a year crime shot through the roof, and remained high (experiencing violent crime numbers in some years that were over double those from before the ban), until, go figure, about a year after the Supreme Court determined the ban was unconstitutional.  These are merely two, and there are other jurisdictions that show this as well.

Quote
The fact is, throwing money at education doesn't result in higher performance from our children. 
"Throwing money" isn't a strategy, so this isn't a fact.

Meanwhile, it IS a fact that continually cutting education budgets doesn't result in higher performance from our children, either.

Not picking a fight, just asking.

Of course it isn't a strategy; well, it can be, but I was opting for a little literary license there, to keep it interesting for the kids at home. 

"Dumbing Down Our Kids" showed that there was little correlation between "spending" and quality of education, past a threshold of actually having schools.   Read it; there's a great passage where the author shows that the best indicator of student performance - regardless of income or economic level - was whether kids were engaged in a program (either official or at home) through out the year as opposed to simply fucking off for the summer and winter breaks. 

Look, there is great debate to be had here, and I am more than willing to get into it, as I find it fascinating.  And I'd be happy to revisit some of my research on the gun issue, but the point was, facts are great, but facts are pesky little creatures, and while one can't argue whether my shoe size is 10 or not (I haven't bought a pair of shoes that wasn't ten in probably 35 years) one can debate all day long whether that means anything in the bigger picture.   

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #182 on: August 04, 2015, 12:16:38 PM »
OK.

BTW, I have zero interest in banning guns.  However, I see no valid reason not to have tighter gun control laws than we currently have on the books.
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Calvin6s

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #183 on: August 04, 2015, 12:19:39 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:14:26 PM by Calvin6s »

Online El Barto

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #184 on: August 04, 2015, 12:35:14 PM »
People seem to accept the image of teacher living on Spam and tap water.  Whenever I get to know a teacher, I usually find out they are being paid rather well.  Very comfortably middle class.
Seems to depend on where they teach. I've known teachers who were paid dick for the privilege of teaching at a school where they weren't likely to be stabbed. You've got rich districts that can afford to be choosy. You've got poor districts that have to pay well to lure prospective teachers in. Then you've got your average suburban high school where neither apply.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #185 on: August 04, 2015, 12:38:41 PM »
"Throwing money" isn't a strategy, so this isn't a fact.
You are playing semantics here.
No I'm not.

Stadler was pretty clearly stating that increased budget does not equal increased performance.
Well, he wasn't "clearly" saying anything, which is what my point was.  Increased budgets for education aren't the problem - the problem is where does the money go.  Which seems to be your point, as well, unless I'm misreading you.

It would be like having an employee with horrible performance.  You can keep raising their pay, but at some point it is going to become clear that money is not the issue.  So you have to look at the training method, supervisor performance or maybe you just ended up with an employee that will never be able to perform their job properly.
I don't think that's a good analogy.  While teacher pay should be increased, that's not the only thing that is in any education budget.

Quote
Meanwhile, it IS a fact that continually cutting education budgets doesn't result in higher performance from our children, either.
You are now using the same statement Stadler used that you considered not a fact.  Especially because there are rarely actual cuts to education budgets, just budget reassignments.  Which just confirms Stadler's point.
Not sure where you live, but there are budget cuts in education ALL THE TIME.
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Online Chino

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #186 on: August 04, 2015, 12:42:50 PM »
People seem to accept the image of teacher living on Spam and tap water.  Whenever I get to know a teacher, I usually find out they are being paid rather well.  Very comfortably middle class.
Seems to depend on where they teach. I've known teachers who were paid dick for the privilege of teaching at a school where they weren't likely to be stabbed. You've got rich districts that can afford to be choosy. You've got poor districts that have to pay well to lure prospective teachers in. Then you've got your average suburban high school where neither apply.

Unless you're a legacy teacher from the 80's, you don't make much as a teacher in CT (despite it being the 7th highest in the country in terms of teacher salaries). Public schools tend to pay better than private. I currently make about double what teachers start at around here, and I the average teacher salary is about $62K give or take.

My girlfriend's mom has been a teacher off and on (paralegal on the side) for the better part of 30 years. She has a hard time finding anything that pays more than $45k per year. However, when you take into consideration the fact that you get an entire summer off, plus holidays and snow days, that's not all that terrible.

Online Stadler

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #187 on: August 04, 2015, 12:48:00 PM »
OK.

BTW, I have zero interest in banning guns.  However, I see no valid reason not to have tighter gun control laws than we currently have on the books.

For the record, I'm with you.  I had my license for a long time (let it expire when I moved out of state).  I don't mind scrutiny that is well-thought out and would be effective at weeding out the Dylann Whatevers and Adam Lanzas of the world.  I just don't want hurdles that result in an effective ban or a precursor to a ban.   

Online Stadler

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #188 on: August 04, 2015, 12:49:50 PM »
Well, he wasn't "clearly" saying anything... 

Uh, wait.  What? Huh?

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #189 on: August 04, 2015, 12:54:58 PM »
People seem to accept the image of teacher living on Spam and tap water.  Whenever I get to know a teacher, I usually find out they are being paid rather well.  Very comfortably middle class.
Seems to depend on where they teach. I've known teachers who were paid dick for the privilege of teaching at a school where they weren't likely to be stabbed. You've got rich districts that can afford to be choosy. You've got poor districts that have to pay well to lure prospective teachers in. Then you've got your average suburban high school where neither apply.

Unless you're a legacy teacher from the 80's, you don't make much as a teacher in CT (despite it being the 7th highest in the country in terms of teacher salaries). Public schools tend to pay better than private. I currently make about double what teachers start at around here, and I the average teacher salary is about $62K give or take.

My girlfriend's mom has been a teacher off and on (paralegal on the side) for the better part of 30 years. She has a hard time finding anything that pays more than $45k per year. However, when you take into consideration the fact that you get an entire summer off, plus holidays and snow days, that's not all that terrible.

And you're not talking "administrators".   Being a teacher is like being the bass player.  Being an ADMINISTRATOR is like being the lead guitarist or the lead singer.   I'm not kidding:  google Altress Cox-Blackwell.   Granted I make a little more than her, but if I performed like that, I'd be slinging burgers at Five Guys.   And don't insult any of us and tell me that the "kids come first" with that woman.   
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 01:10:43 PM by Stadler »

Calvin6s

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #190 on: August 04, 2015, 12:59:46 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:14:53 PM by Calvin6s »

Calvin6s

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #191 on: August 04, 2015, 01:05:33 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:15:03 PM by Calvin6s »

Offline vtgrad

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #192 on: August 05, 2015, 09:24:02 AM »
OK.

BTW, I have zero interest in banning guns.  However, I see no valid reason not to have tighter gun control laws than we currently have on the books.

For the record, I'm with you.  I had my license for a long time (let it expire when I moved out of state).  I don't mind scrutiny that is well-thought out and would be effective at weeding out the Dylann Whatevers and Adam Lanzas of the world.  I just don't want hurdles that result in an effective ban or a precursor to a ban.

I'm with you both 100%.  I carry (legally licensed and trained) daily, and I believe in the right to carry if a person so chooses... I also think that more stringent controls wouldn't hurt anyone that wishes to LEGALLY carry.  When I purchased my main carry firearm, I was in-and-out of the store in 10-minutes; no kidding.  The automatic state police background check system that is in place took 30-seconds I'd say... a more in-depth screening process wouldn't bother me in the slightest. 

I'll be honest about something that does bother me about Virginia's laws regarding firearms... Virginia is an open-carry state.  That boggles my mind... if you're going to carry, why not take the time (either 4-hour on-line class and one day of course training or a live class including both), pay the fee, and obtain a conceal-carry license?  Why carry open?  For myself, I don't want anyone to know that I carry.  I don't see it often, but when I do see it I wonder why someone would want to open carry when it is relatively easy to obtain a conceal-carry permit.

And I guess this goes back to the original point of the thread... if Virginia were to attempt to eliminate open-carry, I'd bet that I'd see a whole lot more open carry and holster sales would go through the roof.
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Now with Twitler taking a high end steak of this caliber and insulting the cow that died for it by having it well done just shows zero respect for the product, which falls right in line with the amount of respect he shows for pretty much everything else.- Lonestar

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #193 on: August 05, 2015, 10:49:14 AM »
I live in Nebraska and I found the process of buying a hand gun a huge pain of the ass, but I think that's the point. First you have to buy a permit to buy from the Sheriff's station which is the first check. Then you have to do another check at the store of purchase. And then you have to register the gun with the police. To carry you have to buy a permit to conceal carry and take a course.

Online Stadler

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #194 on: August 05, 2015, 11:12:23 AM »
I live in Nebraska and I found the process of buying a hand gun a huge pain of the ass, but I think that's the point. First you have to buy a permit to buy from the Sheriff's station which is the first check. Then you have to do another check at the store of purchase. And then you have to register the gun with the police. To carry you have to buy a permit to conceal carry and take a course.

But this is kind of what I mean about the whole "constructive ban".  It shouldn't be a pain in the ass.  It should be thorough.  The DMV is a pain in the ass (but not necessarily thorough).  Job interviews are thorough, as is getting a mortgage (but it isn't always a pain in the ass).     If there are people not getting their permits because it "just isn't worth the hassle", then I think we're bordering on problem, because the people on a "mission" so to speak are still going to put in the effort.

Offline vtgrad

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #195 on: August 05, 2015, 11:47:26 AM »
I live in Nebraska and I found the process of buying a hand gun a huge pain of the ass, but I think that's the point. First you have to buy a permit to buy from the Sheriff's station which is the first check. Then you have to do another check at the store of purchase. And then you have to register the gun with the police. To carry you have to buy a permit to conceal carry and take a course.

But this is kind of what I mean about the whole "constructive ban".  It shouldn't be a pain in the ass.  It should be thorough.  The DMV is a pain in the ass (but not necessarily thorough).  Job interviews are thorough, as is getting a mortgage (but it isn't always a pain in the ass).     If there are people not getting their permits because it "just isn't worth the hassle", then I think we're bordering on problem, because the people on a "mission" so to speak are still going to put in the effort.

Honestly, that sounds like Virginia's process for conceal carry... it was easier than I thought it would be.  But like kaos said, maybe the steps are their own point.  Does anyone think that conceal carry of a firearm should be as easy as buying said firearm and putting it in their belt under their shirt (not being argumentative... that's a serious question)?  IMO, I don't really find the process prohibitive.

And obtaining a mortgage is NEVER a pain in the ass... when you deal with me  :biggrin:  And we can thank Dodd/Frank for the thoroughness of the current mortgage process; as much as I despise regulation, I've become a better originator because of some of the provisions of Dodd/Frank.  Just a few more hoops for the client to jump through. 
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter; Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."  Ecclesiastes 12:13

Now with Twitler taking a high end steak of this caliber and insulting the cow that died for it by having it well done just shows zero respect for the product, which falls right in line with the amount of respect he shows for pretty much everything else.- Lonestar

Calvin6s

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #196 on: August 05, 2015, 01:05:41 PM »
m
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:15:20 PM by Calvin6s »

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #197 on: August 05, 2015, 01:18:17 PM »
So, anyway, looks like the confederate flag's stature is diminishing with time.  It's like anything else.  Progress happens over time.  This pretty much epitomizes progressive social activism. I consider myself lucky to have been alive during all of this social change that's going on. 

Calvin6s

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #198 on: August 05, 2015, 01:43:13 PM »
,
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:15:33 PM by Calvin6s »

Online Stadler

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #199 on: August 05, 2015, 03:05:39 PM »
I live in Nebraska and I found the process of buying a hand gun a huge pain of the ass, but I think that's the point. First you have to buy a permit to buy from the Sheriff's station which is the first check. Then you have to do another check at the store of purchase. And then you have to register the gun with the police. To carry you have to buy a permit to conceal carry and take a course.

But this is kind of what I mean about the whole "constructive ban".  It shouldn't be a pain in the ass.  It should be thorough.  The DMV is a pain in the ass (but not necessarily thorough).  Job interviews are thorough, as is getting a mortgage (but it isn't always a pain in the ass).     If there are people not getting their permits because it "just isn't worth the hassle", then I think we're bordering on problem, because the people on a "mission" so to speak are still going to put in the effort.

Honestly, that sounds like Virginia's process for conceal carry... it was easier than I thought it would be.  But like kaos said, maybe the steps are their own point.  Does anyone think that conceal carry of a firearm should be as easy as buying said firearm and putting it in their belt under their shirt (not being argumentative... that's a serious question)?  IMO, I don't really find the process prohibitive.

And obtaining a mortgage is NEVER a pain in the ass... when you deal with me  :biggrin:  And we can thank Dodd/Frank for the thoroughness of the current mortgage process; as much as I despise regulation, I've become a better originator because of some of the provisions of Dodd/Frank.  Just a few more hoops for the client to jump through.

Bro, I'm going through the mortgage process now, and there is no definition of the words "a few more hoops" that adequately describes this process.  This is my sixth time doing this, but the first since 2008, and what used to be a series of phone calls and a quick fax of pay stubs is EXCRUCIATING.   I have sent two faxes of over 100 pages each during this process, and that isn't counting all the emails (with attachments).  If I didn't have a family, I would have bailed on the process, no lie. 

Online Stadler

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #200 on: August 05, 2015, 03:11:58 PM »
Hmm.  "Progressive social activism"?  That's what we're calling "bullying people to see things our way" these days?  Whatever happened to good old honest discourse about issues?  I've noted elsewhere, and I'll note again here, Diane von Furstenburg SUPPORTED Caitlyn Jenner and yet was lambasted as a "hater" because her support wasn't unequivocal enough, and forced to apologize.  I'm sure the family of that dentist, that had to go into hiding because of death threats, is pretty not excited to be living through this age of "progressive social activism".   

Never trust ANYONE that is so sure they're right that they don't need to hear the counter arguments.

Calvin6s

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #201 on: August 05, 2015, 03:28:25 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:15:45 PM by Calvin6s »

Offline KevShmev

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #202 on: August 05, 2015, 08:08:56 PM »
Hmm.  "Progressive social activism"?  That's what we're calling "bullying people to see things our way" these days?  Whatever happened to good old honest discourse about issues?  I've noted elsewhere, and I'll note again here, Diane von Furstenburg SUPPORTED Caitlyn Jenner and yet was lambasted as a "hater" because her support wasn't unequivocal enough, and forced to apologize.  I'm sure the family of that dentist, that had to go into hiding because of death threats, is pretty not excited to be living through this age of "progressive social activism".   

Never trust ANYONE that is so sure they're right that they don't need to hear the counter arguments.

Let's not forget the absurdity of a Democrat who actually APOLOGIZED for saying all lives matter.  Apparently, only black lives matter these days...when they are killed by whites, which is a tinny tiny percentage, compared to when blacks are killed by other blacks.  Oh, but yeah, it's racist to point out such facts these days, so says the average "progressive thinker."  Yep, real progress there.

Calvin6s

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Re: The Confederate Flag Debate
« Reply #203 on: August 05, 2015, 10:46:01 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:16:00 PM by Calvin6s »