2015-16 NBA thread v. Changing of the guard

[bosk1]

I turned the TV off early in the 4th qtr... the Dubs just didn't really show up for Game 3 at all. Then again, I picked the Dubs in 5, so perhaps this is the "give away game"? 

Really strange game that is hard to explain.  Part of the issue was that the W's defense was really uncharacteristically soft.  But even when it wasn't, the Cavs were hitting everything.  It was one of those nights for them when it seemed like they just couldn't miss.  And on the other side of the ball...the W's just could not hit shots.  Yes, the Cleveland D showed up, finally.  But there were tons of possessions where the W's got the open shot, or even if it was a contested shot, it was a play they have run hundreds of times, and they got the look they wanted, but just missed shot after shot after shot.  Both teams played uncharacteristically uncharacteristic. 

[KevShmev]

 I agree with those selections (man, that 86 Celtics team was fantastic) along with the Showtime Lakers from the early 80s.  Those teams were flashy as hell and fun to watch.

For sure. I was never a Lakers fan, but those teams sure were entertaining.

Really strange game that is hard to explain.  Part of the issue was that the W's defense was really uncharacteristically soft.  But even when it wasn't, the Cavs were hitting everything.  It was one of those nights for them when it seemed like they just couldn't miss.  And on the other side of the ball...the W's just could not hit shots.  Yes, the Cleveland D showed up, finally.  But there were tons of possessions where the W's got the open shot, or even if it was a contested shot, it was a play they have run hundreds of times, and they got the look they wanted, but just missed shot after shot after shot.  Both teams played uncharacteristically uncharacteristic. 

I think it is simple to explain: the Cavs played like a team that had to win; the Warriors played like a team that didn't care if they won or lost.

As much as I waved the flag for the greatness of Curry as a star and the Warriors as a team, two things need to be said:

-Injury or not, Steph Curry deserves a lot of the criticism he is getting today.  Just about any other superstar would be getting reamed if they were coming up this small in the finals, and it goes without saying that James would be getting it 10 times worse.

-Three beatdowns in their last eight playoff games sure isn't gonna help the "Golden State is the best team ever if they win the title" cause.  They won one more regular season game than the 1995-1996 Bulls, but that Bulls team only lost three playoff games, while the Warriors have already lost seven.  Granted, I think two were without Curry, but that is still five with him. Just some food for thought.

[bosk1]

I think it is simple to explain: the Cavs played like a team that had to win; the Warriors played like a team that didn't care if they won or lost.

Maybe that's all there is to it, but...I dunno.  Still hard to explain. 

-Injury or not, Steph Curry deserves a lot of the criticism he is getting today.  Just about any other superstar would be getting reamed if they were coming up this small in the finals, and it goes without saying that James would be getting it 10 times worse.

Yes.  But what makes it difficult to lay it at his feet is that, despite what the national media might try to portray, this team has never been about him being a superstar.  It is about them playing team ball, from the first man to the last, and the team as a whole was flat yesterday, pretty much from the first man to the last.  I get what you are saying, and I don't largely disagree.  But it should be acknowledged that this team model is different than the typical model of 1 or 2 superstars and a supporting cast of role players. 

-Three beatdowns in their last eight playoff games sure isn't gonna help the "Golden State is the best team ever if they win the title" cause.  They won one more regular season game than the 1995-1996 Bulls, but that Bulls team only lost three playoff games, while the Warriors have already lost seven.  Granted, I think two were without Curry, but that is still five with him. Just some food for thought.

That is all true.  But does it really matter what the discussion is about whether they are the best team of all time?  Again, outside the national media, I'm not sure many people care.  They are good enough that they are in the discussion, and that's cool and all, but I think what most fans care most about is just winning that title.  When we look back at this Warriors repeat, I know I won't care that some Bulls fanboy in the ESPN comments section writes, "Dey may have 2 ringz, but no Jordan team ever got beet dis bad in 3 games in da playoffz!"  Or that Skip Bayless may say something similar (albeit in a slightly more articulate manner).

[black_biff_stadler]

The Warriors have actually only lost six games so far (4-1 over the Rockets, same against the Blazers, 4-3 over the Thunder, and currently 2-1 over the Cavs) and I haven't had a single conversation about the Warriors with another NBA fan at any point this season that didn't involve comparisons to the Bulls. It's just an inevitable aspect of winning that many games.

[kaos2900]

Is it just me or are the Warriors a bunch of whinners? I respect what they did but I have a hard time liking a team who talks so much trash and then bitches and moans when they lose.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

In general, the Warriors seem like a bunch of good, smart dudes. I think that their on court antics can get a little annoying at times, especially Green's, but otherwise they're a great group and the league is lucky to have them.

With regard to Curry: I agree that if LeBron was playing this badly after three games, the shouting and screaming about it would be much worse, but I also don't think any player deserves criticism like that, so it doesn't bother me. I also think that people realize Curry is at least a little hurt.

[KevShmev]

Is it just me or are the Warriors a bunch of whinners? I respect what they did but I have a hard time liking a team who talks so much trash and then bitches and moans when they lose.

I think it's just you.

[bosk1]

Is it just me or are the Warriors a bunch of whinners? I respect what they did but I have a hard time liking a team who talks so much trash and then bitches and moans when they lose.

I think it's just you.

I agree with Kev.  I haven't seen any whining from them this entire season when they have lost (or in prior seasons from this lineup either).  From every single player and coach, the only thing I have heard following a loss is that person taking personal ownership of it and saying they could and should have been better. 

Now, if you are only going off of headline soundbites, I can maybe understand you thinking that.  But resist the temptation to read anything into a one-liner that is grabbed and taken out of context.  To give an example, after game 2, Green and Thompson were being interviewed, and one press member in particular was hounding Green about whether the Warriors were better than the Showtime Lakers.  Green gave very thoughtful, diplomatic responses about how he just wants this team to be the best they can be, and he doesn't get caught up in comparisons because, at the end of the day, those two teams can never play each other and the only thing that is within his control is helping his own team play at their best.  He concluded that part by saying something like, "So I don't think anyone can sit up here and say we're better than the Showtime Lakers."  Clay then jokingly (he was giggling as he said it) pulled the mic over and said, "we're better than the Showtime Lakers."  The headline then read, "Thompson says Warriors team better than Showtime Lakers."  That headline completely missed the context of the fact that he was clearly joking and playing off of Green.  And part of the basis for that joke is that Thompson's dad was a member of that Showtime Lakers team, and Klay and his dad have joked about it.  So if you think the Warriors are whining or complaining, I would recommend actually watching any of their pressers and not going off of soundbites that are taken out of context.  I think you will see a much different picture.

[Azyiu]

I agree with Kev.  I haven't seen any whining from them this entire season when they have lost (or in prior seasons from this lineup either).  From every single player and coach, the only thing I have heard following a loss is that person taking personal ownership of it and saying they could and should have been better. 

Now, if you are only going off of headline soundbites, I can maybe understand you thinking that.  But resist the temptation to read anything into a one-liner that is grabbed and taken out of context.  To give an example, after game 2, Green and Thompson were being interviewed, and one press member in particular was hounding Green about whether the Warriors were better than the Showtime Lakers.  Green gave very thoughtful, diplomatic responses about how he just wants this team to be the best they can be, and he doesn't get caught up in comparisons because, at the end of the day, those two teams can never play each other and the only thing that is within his control is helping his own team play at their best.  He concluded that part by saying something like, "So I don't think anyone can sit up here and say we're better than the Showtime Lakers."  Clay then jokingly (he was giggling as he said it) pulled the mic over and said, "we're better than the Showtime Lakers."  The headline then read, "Thompson says Warriors team better than Showtime Lakers."  That headline completely missed the context of the fact that he was clearly joking and playing off of Green.  And part of the basis for that joke is that Thompson's dad was a member of that Showtime Lakers team, and Klay and his dad have joked about it.  So if you think the Warriors are whining or complaining, I would recommend actually watching any of their pressers and not going off of soundbites that are taken out of context.  I think you will see a much different picture.

Exactly! That is why while I still check out sports articles and such, I don't read too much into what is written any more.

[Azyiu]

One of the worst officiated games I've ever witnessed. Despite all of that BS, congrats to the Dubs for winning Game 4.

I'd like to hear from LBJ goes into great detail on how his fouls on Draymond and Curry were not "basketball plays". Its only right after all the times he cried about physical play. 

[Azyiu]

D.Green could get suspended for Game 5 pending league review

https://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2016/story/_/id/16116188/after-lebron-james-draymond-green-altercation-james-upset-green-suspended

IMHO, a double foul was appropriate for that play in question. All in all, it was the officiating crew's inconsistency through out the game that led to that kind of altercation. 

[KevShmev]

I thought James did a great job of provoking Green there.  Some will say it was low budget, but if you've got a guy who's one flagrant foul away from a suspension, it's just smart to try and provoke him into committing one, especially since James sees how outmanned his team is.

And yeah, the officiating was terrible last night. 

[KevShmev]

Green suspended for Game 5.  Well deserved. 

[gmillerdrake]

I don't follow BB much, only highlights and articles....but I know who LBJ is and know enough about him that I can't stand the man. His vanity is only outdone by his ego and in my eyes he epitomizes what's wrong with the world today.

Loved this clip....

https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/michael-jordan-never-said-he-was-the-best-player-in-the-world/

[KevShmev]

The irony there is that by just about every account I have read about their off the court selves, Jordan is much more arrogant than James, not to mention a Grade A a-hole.  I think James reacts to the criticism he has gotten over the years - he is probably the most criticized superstar of the 21st century - which is why he doesn't come off well sometimes, but the guy is a rare unselfish player on the court and does things the right way 99% of the time.  I think his frustration got the better of him in the 4th quarter the other night, probably because he is perturbed with being so undermanned against a team as good and deep as the Warriors.

[gmillerdrake]

The irony there is that by just about every account I have read about their off the court selves, Jordan is much more arrogant than James, not to mention a Grade A a-hole.  I think James reacts to the criticism he has gotten over the years - he is probably the most criticized superstar of the 21st century - which is why he doesn't come off well sometimes, but the guy is a rare unselfish player on the court and does things the right way 99% of the time.  I think his frustration got the better of him in the 4th quarter the other night, probably because he is perturbed with being so undermanned against a team as good and deep as the Warriors.

He should call John Elway and get some advice on how to handle that......single handedly leading teams to the 'big game' only to be beaten by teams that actually have more than one decent player on them and then getting creamed....


I've heard the accounts about Jordan off the court as well....especially post career Jordan. There's just something about LBJ that rubs me wrong.....it could be his massive success....who knows.

[Accelerando]

LeBron is more sensitive than automatic toilets in public bathrooms. Man up.

[j]

Kev is right on guys.  Nobody in pro sports is under more scrutiny or takes more criticism than LeBron.  He's been dealing with it since the very beginning of his career.  His accomplishments are taken for granted and his mistakes are magnified and agonized over to a ridiculous degree.  He's obviously not perfect, but the dude takes SO MUCH shit and honestly handles it very well 99% of the time, which is a hell of a lot better than I would do.

Sure he may be a little arrogant; what do you want from him, he was dubbed the Jesus Christ of basketball when he was 14, and he remains the best basketball player on the planet.  He's not over the top, certainly no more than other great athletes, and I'd much prefer his (apparently) relatively sincere persona to some load of false humility.  He complains about the officiating a lot less than I would in his situation, as a player who really is fouled many many more times than are whistled.  I admit the David Blatt situation kinda rubbed me the wrong way.  We'll probably never know the full reality of that situation and whether/what role LeBron played in it all, but in terms of the Cavs organization, the result and subsequent handling of inquiry didn't surprise me.

If you "don't like" him for whatever reason, fine.  We all have our heroes and villains in sports, part of what makes it fun.  But with LeBron it seems to get personal for some people.  He's definitely not "too sensitive" or "what's wrong with the world today" (lol c'mon G-drake) as far as I'm concerned.

-J

[Azyiu]

IMHO Game 4 was poorly officiated. And I do not think Green deserved to get suspended over that play at all.

[KevShmev]

LeBron is more sensitive than automatic toilets in public bathrooms. Man up.

That doesn't even make sense. In 37 finals games in his career, James AVERAGES 29-10-7.  AVERAGES.  That is all-time epic great play. 

Kev is right on guys.  Nobody in pro sports is under more scrutiny or takes more criticism than LeBron.  He's been dealing with it since the very beginning of his career.  His accomplishments are taken for granted and his mistakes are magnified and agonized over to a ridiculous degree.  He's obviously not perfect, but the dude takes SO MUCH shit and honestly handles it very well 99% of the time, which is a hell of a lot better than I would do.

Sure he may be a little arrogant; what do you want from him, he was dubbed the Jesus Christ of basketball when he was 14, and he remains the best basketball player on the planet.  He's not over the top, certainly no more than other great athletes, and I'd much prefer his (apparently) relatively sincere persona to some load of false humility.  He complains about the officiating a lot less than I would in his situation, as a player who really is fouled many many more times than are whistled.  I admit the David Blatt situation kinda rubbed me the wrong way.  We'll probably never know the full reality of that situation and whether/what role LeBron played in it all, but in terms of the Cavs organization, the result and subsequent handling of inquiry didn't surprise me.

If you "don't like" him for whatever reason, fine.  We all have our heroes and villains in sports, part of what makes it fun.  But with LeBron it seems to get personal for some people.  He's definitely not "too sensitive" or "what's wrong with the world today" (lol c'mon G-drake) as far as I'm concerned.

-J

Well said. 

  And I do not think Green deserved to get suspended over that play at all.

He was not suspended for that play; he was suspended for accumulating too many flagrant fouls in the playoffs.  In a vacuum, sure, that is by no means a suspendible play, but when you factor in his other flagrant fouls and the collective nature of them, it was simply the flagrant foul that put him at the limit where a suspension is automatic.

[Azyiu]

I should re-phase... If I am correct, he was assessed a flagrant foul over that play in question against LBJ. I've gone back and watched it a few times, I just don't see how it was a flagrant foul. Both guys were playing aggressively, physical and all; yet those refs have been inconsistent with their calls all game. It is hard to expect guys would react nicely over that kind of physical contact.

[bosk1]

You are correct, Azyiu.  It was NOT a flagrant by any definition.  It would be egregious enough if the officials had mistakenly called it a flagrant in the heat of the moment right after the play happened and he got ejected over a blown on-the-spot call.  But they didn't.  They actually got it right.  The NBA blew it by retroactively calling it a flagrant.  That is inexcusable.  If Green had actually committed a flagrant, he would absolutely deserve the consequences for the accumulation of post-season fouls.  But for the NBA to upgrade something that doesn't remotely fit the definition of a flagrant foul to a flagrant after the fact when the stakes are this high...  What a disgrace.  The league should be ashamed.   

[j]

You are correct, Azyiu.  It was NOT a flagrant by any definition.  It would be egregious enough if the officials had mistakenly called it a flagrant in the heat of the moment right after the play happened and he got ejected over a blown on-the-spot call.  But they didn't.  They actually got it right.  The NBA blew it by retroactively calling it a flagrant.  That is inexcusable.  If Green had actually committed a flagrant, he would absolutely deserve the consequences for the accumulation of post-season fouls.  But for the NBA to upgrade something that doesn't remotely fit the definition of a flagrant foul to a flagrant after the fact when the stakes are this high...  What a disgrace.  The league should be ashamed.   

Call me cynical, but I suspect if Cleveland had taken game 4, the league would have seen this differently.

-J

[hefdaddy42]

Water cooler talk is that the NBA intentionally did that to give the Warriors a bigger chance to lose the next game, which would extend the playoffs.

You know how water cooler talk is.

[bosk1]

Yeah, I mean, that is the logical conclusion to jump to.  But whether it is actually true or not...who knows?  Hard to believe the NBA would stoop so low and be so transparent about it, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.  To me, the more logical conclusion is, "the league" loves LeBron and is mad at Green, so they simply took that too far to the extreme and messed up in the process.  But again, who knows?  The right call was made on the court, and any way you slice it, changing it to a flagrant after the fact when it doesn't fit within the definition of a flagrant is just wrong no matter what the motive.

[King Postwhore]

Green put himself in the position to be suspended.  No, don't get me wrong, I believe in a player like Green and love his "aggressive" style. Every team that's good needs that player.  He just had to many of "those" incidents.

Lebron got exactly what was called for.  He cock walked over Green.  I know Lebron is a great player but I think the scrutiny he gets is how he handles himself off the court.  He 's not an ass, he's a good dad but those thing that he does like the announcement and one not two not three are the things that bother most fans and helps them root against him.

[bosk1]

Green put himself in the position to be suspended. 

In general, by playing his style of play and getting called on it previous times in the playoffs, yes.  That removes any benefit of the doubt in close calls.  But benefit of the doubt should not even come into play here because this was not a close call.  This was not a flagrant by any stretch.  It was not called one on the floor, there was nothing about it that warranted further review, and further review confirms that it doesn't fit the definition of a flagrant.  So in terms of this specific play, no, he did NOT put himself in a position to be suspended here.  He has been careful and has been playing within the rules this series as he should, so the league has no cause to go in after the fact and try to manufacture violations.

[KevShmev]

He swiped at an opposing player's genitals. And it's not the first time. I have no doubt that the NBA wants more games, but Green really has no one to blame but himself.

[King Postwhore]

Hey, if someone was cock walking over me I'd give him a nut shot as well.

[bosk1]

He swiped at an opposing player's genitals. And it's not the first time. I have no doubt that the NBA wants more games, but Green really has no one to blame but himself.

Okay, but aside from the fact that your description is entirely misleading in terms of what actually occurred, that still, in and of itself, is not a flagrant.

[King Postwhore]

I agree bosk1.  Give them technicals. That's all that was really worth. 

[KevShmev]

He swiped at an opposing player's genitals. And it's not the first time. I have no doubt that the NBA wants more games, but Green really has no one to blame but himself.

Okay, but aside from the fact that your description is entirely misleading in terms of what actually occurred, that still, in and of itself, is not a flagrant.

How was it misleading? He took a swipe at his nuts. It's plain as day in the video.

[bosk1]

What is plain as day is that while on the ground (after being thrown there by LeBron), he lightly takes a "swipe" at a player that is standing over him, further keeping him down and taunting him.  The partial description is misleading in its absence of context or detail, and it's emphasis on what Green took a swipe "at" or how--especially given that you are somehow trying to argue that a flagrant was justified under the circumstances. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

In other news, Skip Bayless kind of just called LeBron a bitch. I mean, it isn't exactly what he said, but come on now...

https://twitter.com/RealSkipBayless/status/742396313464111107

[bosk1]

Well, to me, I read that as more him calling LeBron a hypocrite.