Author Topic: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best  (Read 12753 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ytserush

  • Posts: 5376
  • Like clockwork...
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2015, 04:02:34 PM »
Worst to best

8. Forsaken
7. Ministry of Lost Souls
6. In the Presence of Enemies Part II
5. In the Presence of Enemies Part I
4. The Dark Eternal Night
3. Constant Motion
2. Repentance
1. Prophets of War



Offline Train of Naught

  • I sympathize, with a cockroach
  • Posts: 8008
  • Gender: Male
  • .....and a cockroach
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2015, 04:20:07 PM »
Wow, literally all of the tracks have at least made it to #1 at least one time by you guys.
people on this board are actual music fans who developed taste in music and not casual listeners who are following current fashion trends and listening to only current commercial hits.

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2015, 12:36:06 AM »
And another thing: they're eight songs, not seven..

I disagree. I've always counted ItPoE as one. I've edited them together and never listen to them seperately any longer. Additionally, the band wrote it as one song.

They ARE 8 separate songs.. If you edited ItPoE 1 and 2 together, that's you (well, you and many others, I know).. And yes, the band wrote, at first, ITPoE as a stand alone song, but then they've decided to divide it into two.. So they're two songs.. Just like AMBI is not one song but three, even if the band wrote it as one longer song at first..

It can be considered correctly as a Suite.. But not as ONE song..

8 tracks, 7 songs. The decision to split it was made after writing/recording the song. It has never been considered a suite.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline The Cat Of Tuscany

  • "The truth is the truth and the only thing you can do is to live with it."
  • Posts: 131
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2015, 08:11:42 AM »
8. Prophets Of War
7. The Ministry Of Lost Souls
6. Repentance
5. The Dark Eternal Night
4. In The Presence Of Enemies Pt. 1
3. Constant Motion
2. In The Presence Of Enemies Pt. 2
1. Forsaken

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52785
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2015, 08:16:09 AM »
And another thing: they're eight songs, not seven..

I disagree. I've always counted ItPoE as one. I've edited them together and never listen to them seperately any longer. Additionally, the band wrote it as one song.

They ARE 8 separate songs.. If you edited ItPoE 1 and 2 together, that's you (well, you and many others, I know).. And yes, the band wrote, at first, ITPoE as a stand alone song, but then they've decided to divide it into two.. So they're two songs.. Just like AMBI is not one song but three, even if the band wrote it as one longer song at first..

It can be considered correctly as a Suite.. But not as ONE song..

8 tracks, 7 songs. The decision to split it was made after writing/recording the song. It has never been considered a suite.
I agree with this. 

But in my ranking in this thread, I kept them separated, because I like Pt. 1 much better than Pt. 2.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline ToT-147

  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
  • Living out this Utopian Dream
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2015, 05:35:38 PM »
Just the fact that it was written, recorded and played live makes as one song makes it so. In The Presence of Enemies has no characteristics of a suite.

None of those are good arguments of why it is so often considered as one song..
Written: no, because we don't know how many songs have been written as one at first and divided afterward.. In fact, we actually do know about a case: Burning My Soul and Hell's Kitchen.. Are they two songs because they were written initially as one?.. I don't think so..
Recorded: Neither.. You have all SFAM as a proof.. There are songs which can be recorded continuously but then split into two or more songs, as The Mirror/Lie or Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the Sand..
Played live: Yeah, ItPoE was most of the times played "entirely", or rather, together, but they have played ItPoE part 1 only a lot of times also so this isn't a consistent argument either.. Have in mind that they've played live a huge amount of songs as one, like the ones I've already mentioned, and so many others, including songs that are not even in the same album, such as On the Backs of Angels/War Inside My Head (LaLP) or The Looking Glass/Trial of Tears (BtFW), to mention only a couple..

The reason (that I can understand, though I don't agree with) of why it can be considered as one song is the obvious fact that both tracks tell the same story, share riffs, melodies, and, basically, that ItPoE 1 it's composed by parts 1 and 2, and ItPoE 2 by parts 3, 4, 5 and 6 of that same story.. Either way, all these characteristics are valid too for the Twelve Step Suite songs.. That's why I said that I can stand they to be treated as a suite, though I don't think of them as one.. They're two separate songs, and that's what makes them unique.. They're one and two at the same time.. One story, two songs... but in the same album, unlike the TS Suite, and not consecutively, unlike A Mind Beside Itself..
UTÓPICA 'Symphonic Progressive Metal' band - First album's now out
iTunes goo.gl/z5kl9d Amazon goo.gl/bWTwMF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRKNqEH1rxo (Videoclip from Second album)

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12789
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2015, 06:15:34 PM »
Well, first off, let me just say that ITPOE presents a unique situation where I think there are valid points to argue both, and I don't think the band would take a firm position one way or the other because of the unique circumstances surrounding this song. 

But that said, your arguments miss the point.  The band has weighed in and told us whether it is one song or two, so any arguments to the contrary really miss the point.  The fact is, the band wrote it as one song, intended it to be considered one song, and presented it that way live on the tour to represent the song as it was intended.  And they have been clear about that from the start.  The fact that they played only part 1 on a few occasions does not really change anything.  They did the same with parts of ACOS and Six Degrees as well, but that does not magically transform those separate parts into separate songs. 

As I recall, the band said (and I am paraphrasing) that it is one song, but they had some conflicting concerns about the album as a whole:  ITPOE is a great album opener, and they wanted it to start off the album.  But they did not want to start the album with a huge epic because that just makes the flow of the album clunky.  And they did not want to end with a 20-minute (approximately) epic because they just did that with Octavarium and did not want to repeat that format and have it be cliché.  So since the song had a logical break in the middle, they split it into 2 tracks for album tracking purposes only. 

Again, this is for album flow purposes--not because they decided it was two separate songs.  This is very different from Burning My Soul/Hell's Kitchen, where the decision was made that Hell's Kitchen did not fit as part of Burning My Soul, and made it too clunky, so they rewrote and recorded it as two separate songs. 
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline ToT-147

  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
  • Living out this Utopian Dream
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2015, 07:25:12 PM »
I agree with this being a complex issue.. And I had heard about that statement of them, but I don't think I'm missing any point by saying the opposite, due the subjectivity of the case.. I'll always think of ItPoE as two songs, having the peculiarity to seem a single epic song.. Yeah, even when the band itself (which we know it wasn't really the band but only Portnoy) says the opposite..

"The fact that they played only part 1 on a few occasions does not really change anything.".. No, it doesn't, I was precisely saying that.. (It's tricky anyway..) I wasn't saying that because they played one song without the other a few times they're two songs and not one.. What I was saying is that the fact that they played both songs together it doesn't prove ItPoE is one song, which is not the same.. I also talked about OtBoA/WiMH, and no one can obviously think that these are one song instead of two for no particular reason..

They didn't decide it was two separate songs, that's right, they 'only' decided it was two separate tracks, decision responsible of these kind of talks or problems.. About BMS/HK, yeah, I didn't come up with an equal circumstance, but I'll repeat the main argument before that: we don't know how many songs they wrote as one at first and then divided.. If there's no other like ItPoE, then the song is unique about that too..
UTÓPICA 'Symphonic Progressive Metal' band - First album's now out
iTunes goo.gl/z5kl9d Amazon goo.gl/bWTwMF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRKNqEH1rxo (Videoclip from Second album)

Offline Nearmyth

  • Posts: 518
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2015, 07:46:07 PM »
7. Forsaken: DT's most generic song of all time.

6. Prophets Of War: Not really awful, but in no way great. Just incredibly forgettable.

5. Constant Motion: Actually a really cool song... The solo part is such a neat little section. The song gives a real "driving force" sorta feel.

4. The Dark Eternal Night: This one gets a bad wrap for a lot of things, and sometimes I see why: The verse, pre-chorus, chorus, the main riffs - they're all incredibly meh. But the instrumental section :metal is so pumped and sweet. The incredibly cool songwriting and instrumentation there saves the song for me.


3. The Ministry Of Lost Souls
: Every part of this song is so good. It is VERY long for it's own good, but it was one of the first DT epics I got into and I never had a problem with its length or its many different parts. So dramatic, so emotional, so energy powah. Love the outro too.


2. Repentance
: I get why people bash this one too. For me, everything up until the guitar solo is amazing, but the part after the guitar solo is even better. DT (or Portnoy specifically I suppose) wanted to get across that idea of the intense emotion, regret, and melancholy that was present in this song and he achieved that in every way. The last 5 minutes of this song are the most beautiful minutes on the album, and they last just as long as they should.


1. In The Presence Of Enemies
: Obvious choice for number one. Both parts just have the coolest songwriting and dynamics to convey the story and the evil/darkness that the song just drips with. As with most DT epics, epic is the perfect word to describe this one. It isn't incredibly mindblowing, but it's a fun trip all the way through.
"Now I'm not one to soon forget
And I bet I never will...

WAAHH WAAHH DIGA DIGA WAAHH WAAHH"

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2015, 09:37:24 PM »
Just the fact that it was written, recorded and played live makes as one song makes it so. In The Presence of Enemies has no characteristics of a suite.

None of those are good arguments of why it is so often considered as one song..
Written: no, because we don't know how many songs have been written as one at first and divided afterward.. In fact, we actually do know about a case: Burning My Soul and Hell's Kitchen.. Are they two songs because they were written initially as one?.. I don't think so..
Recorded: Neither.. You have all SFAM as a proof.. There are songs which can be recorded continuously but then split into two or more songs, as The Mirror/Lie or Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the Sand..
Played live: Yeah, ItPoE was most of the times played "entirely", or rather, together, but they have played ItPoE part 1 only a lot of times also so this isn't a consistent argument either.. Have in mind that they've played live a huge amount of songs as one, like the ones I've already mentioned, and so many others, including songs that are not even in the same album, such as On the Backs of Angels/War Inside My Head (LaLP) or The Looking Glass/Trial of Tears (BtFW), to mention only a couple..

The reason (that I can understand, though I don't agree with) of why it can be considered as one song is the obvious fact that both tracks tell the same story, share riffs, melodies, and, basically, that ItPoE 1 it's composed by parts 1 and 2, and ItPoE 2 by parts 3, 4, 5 and 6 of that same story.. Either way, all these characteristics are valid too for the Twelve Step Suite songs.. That's why I said that I can stand they to be treated as a suite, though I don't think of them as one.. They're two separate songs, and that's what makes them unique.. They're one and two at the same time.. One story, two songs... but in the same album, unlike the TS Suite, and not consecutively, unlike A Mind Beside Itself..

They're actually overwhelming evidence of it being one song. Your mistake here is arguing all of those words individually, because none of those examples meet all of those criteria, which is the obvious point here.

Burning My Soul and Hell's Kitchen were originally written as one song, but then split up and rewritten as separate songs, and then recorded as such. ITPOE was not rewritten or changed around in any way to make it two separate songs after being split. It was just cut in half. That's not the case with the BMS/HK combo.

SFAM is murkier because it actually was originally written to be one song years beforehand, but by the time of recording, there was no intention of it all being one song. It was always recorded as a concept album. The recording process obviously had more overlap with transitions, but it was still treated separately, and named separately.

Yes, playing tracks back to back live isn't proof that they're one song, because they weren't also WRITTEN AND RECORDED as one song as ITPOE was.

Also, you know, they're clearly labeled as ITPOE pt 1 and pt 2. I don't recall a Burning My Soul pt 1 / pt 2, or Strange Deja Vu pt 1 / pt 2.

This is really straightforward when you put the pieces together. As blurry as the lines can get in prog, you have to be trying pretty hard to ignore the clear evidence in this case.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 09:46:27 PM by BlobVanDam »
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline BlackInk

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2015, 06:14:58 AM »
As all the posts above shows, there are a lot of evidence of ItPoE being one song, but there is only one piece of evidence against it, which is the fact that they're not next to each other on the album's track listing. So in my mind, the evidence for far outweighs the evidence against.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52785
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2015, 11:20:43 AM »
MP said that the only reason it was split into two parts on the album was that when they were putting together the track order, ITPOE was the overwhelmingly best choice to open the album, and also the overwhelmingly best choice to close the album.  So they split it, in order to do both.

It's one song, split into two tracks for presentation purposes on the album.  Not even sure why there is a discussion on this.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline RoeDent

  • 2006 Time Magazine Person of the Year
  • Posts: 6029
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2015, 12:01:30 PM »
The creators of the song (the band) should surely be the final judge, jury and executioner over this issue. If they say it is a single song, then it is. No argument/issue about it.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52785
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2015, 12:23:05 PM »
The creators of the song (the band) should surely be the final judge, jury and executioner over this issue. If they say it is a single song, then it is. No argument/issue about it.
lol that won't go far here.

Stop making sense.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline JediKnight1969

  • Andrés
  • Posts: 1308
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2015, 12:53:22 PM »
7. Prophets of War
6. Constant Motion
5. The Dark Eternal Night
4. Repentance
3. Ministry of Lost Souls
2. Forsaken
1. In the Presence of Enemies (in full glory)
A daily dose of eMpTyV will flush your mind right down the drain...

Offline The Letter M

  • Posts: 15494
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2015, 01:18:09 PM »
RE: ITPOE as One song or Two - I'll sound off and say that I agree with the fact (yes, fact, as has been stated by the piece's creators) that "In The Presence Of Enemies" is indeed ONE song, but it is also two TRACKS.

There's a difference between Songs and Tracks. Songs =/= Tracks, especially in the world of prog. "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" is 8 tracks, but it is also 1 song. There's also a difference between Suites and Songs. One Suite =/= One Song. "A Mind Beside Itself" is known as a suite, but it is not one song (especially as the pieces that make it up were all composed at separate times). The same goes for "The Twelve-Step Suite", which features 5 songs (with 2-3 movements each), composed at 5 different times over the course of a decade.

Had "A Change Of Seasons" been released as 7 tracks, would we all be arguing over whether or not it's one song or seven?! Most people would accept it as one song, but there'd be others who'd accept it as 7, but it was all composed at once, released at once, and intended as a whole piece, so therefore, it'd still be ONE song, just a longer epic piece split into 7 tracks.

Similar to the title track to SDOIT, ITPOE is split to facilitate the format. The 42-minute epic SDOIT was split because MP (and possibly the rest of the band) felt that the novelty of seeing the CD timer (because this was before iPod's and MP3 players) would wear off after awhile, so tracking the song into 8 separate tracks made it easier for fans to jump to specific parts if they wanted to.

While it was for a different reason, ITPOE was split to facilitate the album, to both open AND close the album (as has been previously said numerous times in this thread). Had the individual movements also been tracked into separate tracks, would we be arguing over whether or not it was 6 songs or one?

Needless to say, I'll always hold band-intent above any other opinion, considering they wrote it.

TL:DR - ITPOE is one song, but still 2 tracks; SDOIT is still one song, but also 8 tracks; AMBI is NOT a song, but a suite made of 3 tracks, which are also 3 songs; TTSS is 5 tracks, 5 songs, but 1 suite.

Then again, don't get me started on SFAM, whose back cover lists 9 track times for its 9 scenes, but lists 12 tracks for the individual tracks on the album. Do the Scenes count as songs? Is "Through My Words" really a song, or just part of one? These questions and more on the next DTF-Debate...

-Marc.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 02:34:00 PM by The Letter M »
ATTENTION - HAKEN FANS! The HAKEN SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52785
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2015, 01:55:01 PM »
"Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" is 8 tracks, but it is also 1 songs.
Yes, it is 1 songs.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Train of Naught

  • I sympathize, with a cockroach
  • Posts: 8008
  • Gender: Male
  • .....and a cockroach
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2015, 01:55:39 PM »
Do the Scenes count as songs? Is "Through My Words" really a song, or just part of one? These questions and more on the next DTF-Debate...

-Marc.
Great conclusion man, I'm already hooked for the next episode because of those intriguing questions.
people on this board are actual music fans who developed taste in music and not casual listeners who are following current fashion trends and listening to only current commercial hits.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2015, 04:12:31 PM »
I think ITPOE would have worked closing the album as one single track, but the big problem then is, what becomes the first track?  It can't be something on the mellow side, so it has to be a rocker.  The Dark Eternal Night was too much of a departure to kick off the album, Forsaken really is more of a track 2 or 3 than opener, Prophets of War is too meh to start anything, and while the Constant Motion riff would have a cool beginning of the album, most of the rest of the song is too poor to open the album. 

Offline jakepriest

  • Posts: 3965
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2015, 04:32:56 PM »
I actually have SC rearranged and have to say that Constant Motion is an amazing opener.

Offline The Letter M

  • Posts: 15494
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2015, 05:21:23 PM »
I think ITPOE would have worked closing the album as one single track, but the big problem then is, what becomes the first track?  It can't be something on the mellow side, so it has to be a rocker.  The Dark Eternal Night was too much of a departure to kick off the album, Forsaken really is more of a track 2 or 3 than opener, Prophets of War is too meh to start anything, and while the Constant Motion riff would have a cool beginning of the album, most of the rest of the song is too poor to open the album.
I actually have SC rearranged and have to say that Constant Motion is an amazing opener.

This. I, too, have done this, and re-worked the album where TMOLS now cross-fades into Forsaken, essentially doing the inverse of what ITPOE did with it's two parts. TMOLS is now 15:00 long and going into Forsaken. I open with CM and TDEN (as 'Side 1'), then do TMOLS/Forsaken (as 'Side 2'), move on to Repentance and POW (as 'Side 3'), and close the album with the complete 25:12 version of ITPOE.

Also, if anyone questions whether or not the song was actually composed as one whole piece in the studio, recall that it had one working title for the whole piece. In addition to that, if you watch the Making Of DVD that came with the special edition, you'll hear the octave bass part that opens Part 2 play 8 bars (of 6/8) after the closing guitar/keyboard run that closes Part 1 (just without a lot of the wind sounds in between). It's the part where they're tracking JP's guitar part over JR's keyboard part, and you can hear the bass come in 8 bars later just before they cut it off.

Using that as a guideline, I've made my version of ITPOE to mimic that so that the final version is the complete 25:12, although most places and people will say the song is longer due to just adding the two parts' times together (where the wind sounds extend the actual song length).

-Marc.
ATTENTION - HAKEN FANS! The HAKEN SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!

Online wolfking

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 46262
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2015, 07:35:53 PM »
8. Repentance
7. Prophets of War
6. ITPOE1
5. Constant Motion
4. Forsaken
3. ITPOE2
2. TDEN
1. TMOLS

Something like that.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2015, 09:58:33 PM »
I actually have SC rearranged and have to say that Constant Motion is an amazing opener.

It definitely would have made a great opener, right in line with previous heavy opening tracks. They opened with it live too, and it went down very well. :tup
I don't like to mess with track order too much though, so aside from ITPOE, I leave it unchanged with Forsaken opening the album, which I still think works well.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12789
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2015, 10:49:03 PM »
Mine goes:
ITPOE
Forsaken
Constant Motion
TDEN
(and if I feel like it, I have Repentance at the end)

ITPOE is such a great opener that the fact that it is a long epic doesn't really have a negative impact at all, IMO.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Plasmastrike

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1137
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2015, 11:01:49 PM »
MP said that the only reason it was split into two parts on the album was that when they were putting together the track order, ITPOE was the overwhelmingly best choice to open the album, and also the overwhelmingly best choice to close the album.  So they split it, in order to do both.

It's one song, split into two tracks for presentation purposes on the album.  Not even sure why there is a discussion on this.
Indeed. Beautifully said :'(

Offline Scorpion

  • Unreal Heir
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9908
  • Gender: Male
  • Ragnarök around the Clöck!
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2015, 01:32:29 AM »
I actually have SC rearranged and have to say that Constant Motion is an amazing opener.

Yeah, I have this to, and on the rare occasions that I listen to SC, it works really well.
scorpion is my favorite deathcore lobster
Hey, the length is fine :azn: Thanks!

Offline ToT-147

  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
  • Living out this Utopian Dream
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2015, 01:07:28 PM »
Too much to answer.. I'll only say that I'm still thinking ItPoE it's one song, no matter if Petrucci himself tells me the opposite right in my face.. I'd defend my posture.. After all, we're talking about the same band that has labeled a song as False Awakening SUITE, and at the same time has decided a name such as The Twelve Step SUITE for a set of songs.. I have no problem at all with this, but I'm only mentioning it to point out the subjective these things are..

Just the fact that it was written, recorded and played live makes as one song makes it so.

ITPOE is one song, but still 2 tracks; SDOIT is still one song, but also 8 tracks; AMBI is NOT a song, but a suite made of 3 tracks, which are also 3 songs; TTSS is 5 tracks, 5 songs, but 1 suite.

SFAM, whose back cover lists 9 track times for its 9 scenes, but lists 12 tracks for the individual tracks on the album. Do the Scenes count as songs?

If you (all) agree with those conditions a song has to accomplish to be considered as a song, then what about The Mirror/Lie (my ignored example)?.. It satisfies the three conditions.. We should say they're not two songs but one?.. I don't think we should..

And yes, about SFAM, there you have another example of this question's relativity.. But I guess we can asume that the scenes are suites, and they decided to put the lenght of the suites rather than the songs'... that should solve the problem.. At least THAT problem..
UTÓPICA 'Symphonic Progressive Metal' band - First album's now out
iTunes goo.gl/z5kl9d Amazon goo.gl/bWTwMF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRKNqEH1rxo (Videoclip from Second album)

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12789
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2015, 01:12:16 PM »
Too much to answer.. I'll only say that I'm still thinking ItPoE it's one song, no matter if Petrucci himself tells me the opposite right in my face.. I'd defend my posture..

Well that's just silly.  He is the author, so he gets final say.  But if you believe otherwise, there really isn't any point in continuing the discussion.

If you (all) agree with those conditions a song has to accomplish to be considered as a song, then what about The Mirror/Lie (my ignored example)?.. It satisfies the three conditions..

What are you talking about?  It doesn't satisfy ANY of those conditions.  They were not written or recorded as one song.  And to the best of my knowledge, they have never been played as one song either.  Ever.  They may have been played back to back with The Mirror sequing into Lie, but that is a far cry from playing them as one song.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline BlackInk

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2015, 01:32:21 PM »
I think it's one thing to stick to your guns when discussing your opinion on various topics, but another thing entirely to close your eyes to clear evidence differing from your belief about something.

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12789
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2015, 01:51:12 PM »
Precisely.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline LCArenas

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2511
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2015, 01:58:47 PM »
7. Prophets of War
6. The Dark Eternal Night
5. Repentance
4. Constant Motion
3. Forsaken
2b. ITPOE part 1
2a. ITPOE part 2
1. The Ministry of Lost Souls

Offline The Letter M

  • Posts: 15494
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2015, 03:37:24 PM »
If you (all) agree with those conditions a song has to accomplish to be considered as a song, then what about The Mirror/Lie (my ignored example)?.. It satisfies the three conditions..

What are you talking about?  It doesn't satisfy ANY of those conditions.  They were not written or recorded as one song.  And to the best of my knowledge, they have never been played as one song either.  Ever.  They may have been played back to back with The Mirror sequing into Lie, but that is a far cry from playing them as one song.

Not sure if it was answered earlier in the thread, but "Lie" was born out of the middle section of "The Mirror". If you listen to the original demo of "The Mirror" (which clocks in at over 10 minutes), the middle section is essentially most of "Lie". Like "Hell's Kitchen", it was lifted out of the song and given lyrics and some new parts, but retains the "Mirror Reprise" at the end at the original demo had.

Thematically, that ending is all that "Lie" has in common with "The Mirror", but the band have played a version of "The Mirror" without "Lie" but including the reprise, as heard on Live Scenes From New York. The band have also played both songs back-to-back on numerous occasions, as evidenced on the DTIFC disc Graspop Festival 2002. "Lie" has also been played on its own before, as well. Neither song/track is really dependent on the other, nor were they technically written at the same time. For the final album version, the segue was included to make reference to the fact that one song was born out of the other, much in the same way that "Burning My Soul" segues into "Hell's Kitchen" on Falling Into Infinity. Unlike the original "Burning My Soul '96" performances, though, no original demo-version of "The Mirror" was EVER played live. The closest we've ever gotten was the version heard on LSFNY. Oddly enough, there have been very VERY few performances of JUST "Hell's Kitchen", and most of it was ever heard in the band's 2003/2004 Instrumedley. I think the band (sans LaBrie) may have played it a few times at some clinics or shows with MP, but that's about it.

If anyone has more information about "The Mirror"/"Lie", that'd be neat to hear, but that's as much as I can recall at the moment.

-Marc.
ATTENTION - HAKEN FANS! The HAKEN SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2015, 04:04:34 PM »
While I get that ITPOE is technically one song, it doesn't really sound like one song.  Okay, the wind blowing effect that ends I and begins II gives it continuity, but the opening verse of Part 2 has that "first verse of a song" feel, not "the middle of a song" or "new part of a song" feel.   

Offline Zook

  • Evil Incarnate
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14144
  • Gender: Male
  • Take My Hand
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2015, 06:25:50 PM »
Prophets of War








TMOLS
Constant Motion
Forsaken
TDEN
Repentance
ITPOE Pt 2
ITPOE Pt 1

Offline ToT-147

  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
  • Living out this Utopian Dream
Re: Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best
« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2015, 11:20:40 PM »
I'm still thinking ItPoE it's one song, no matter if Petrucci himself tells me the opposite right in my face.. I'd defend my posture..

Well that's just silly.  He is the author, so he gets final say.  But if you believe otherwise, there really isn't any point in continuing the discussion.

Yeah, right there.. There's an enormous difference between what anyone can think about something (so relative) and what anyone can say about something he has created.. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't take back even if that hypothetical situation happens.. Change your mind only before something like that, now that would be silly.. Because I'm not saying how it is or how it should be, but only how it's for me, and based on the things I said before, not randomly..

I think it's one thing to stick to your guns when discussing your opinion on various topics, but another thing entirely to close your eyes to clear evidence differing from your belief about something.

There's no such evidence.. There's only different ways to see it.. And I'm not the only one to think they're eight songs.. About 10 over 30 people on this topic have numbered eight title tracks.. I know that doesn't mean they consider the songs are eight, but someone else from those 10 has to.. As I and some others have said before, this is a special case, and that's why some of us decided to see ItPoE as one single song.. You can't eliminate that opinion by any means..
UTÓPICA 'Symphonic Progressive Metal' band - First album's now out
iTunes goo.gl/z5kl9d Amazon goo.gl/bWTwMF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRKNqEH1rxo (Videoclip from Second album)