Rank Systematic Chaos from worst to best

[BlackInk]

What the hell is happening? Do you think that it is one song now? Consider me confused.

[ToT-147]

some of us decided to see ItPoE as one single song..

  Nope.. Don't be confused, my bad.. I should have written: "as two separate songs.." Human slip.. 

[hefdaddy42]

Well, that's easy.

The people that think it is 2 songs are wrong.

[ToT-147]

Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..

ITPOE presents a unique situation where I think there are valid points to argue both, and I don't think the band would take a firm position one way or the other because of the unique circumstances surrounding this song.

IMO this summarizes the thing very well, except that I'd change the last part for: these songs..

[Cable]

ITPOE would be top three at the least for me if they were forced to be rated as a split. They are a song, MP convinced the band to split them up due to flow and the album prior. On the SC tour they played it live as one song. That is the story that I'm sticking to, and my ITPOE are one song that starts the album.

1 = the best

1 ITPOE
2 CM
3 POW
4 R
^
5 TMOLS
^
^
6 F
^
^
^
7 TDEN

ITPOE is probably a top three 20+ minuter for me from DT, and it battles for number two a lot. The lyrics may be a bit meh, but to me the song is intense and heavy from the get-go. The chants actually work well in the song IMO. And that is really the appeal for the album for me, outside of Repentance. It works so much better for me within the 12 Step suite. Outside of it, I can kind of leave it. But I need it for the whole thing.

The rest are just meh to super meh to me. TMOLS has some good ideas, and I'm one of the few that actually like the instrumental stuff. I cannot stand the opening piano part, and the chorus. Forsaken is more of the same, sans the incredible solo. And TDEN is very symptomatic of the MP influence and issues. While I don't think the unheard JP non-aggressive verse vocal melodies would have saved it, the song goes all over the place while having three choruses. I do not like the choruses. The ending is incredible though.

[BlackInk]

Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..

Okay how about this, they can be seen by as two seperate pieces, many people have split them in their rankings so that ultimately comes down to how one wants to do personally. But when it comes to whether or not it actually is one or two songs, there is only one true answer that doesn't change based on varying opinions. It's like saying "I like the right side of Mona Lisa more than the left". Okay, that's fine, me too, but that doesn't make it a seperate painting.

[Darkstarshades]

Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..

Okay how about this, they can be seen by as two seperate pieces, many people have split them in their rankings so that ultimately comes down to how one wants to do personally. But when it comes to whether or not it actually is one or two songs, there is only one true answer that doesn't change based on varying opinions. It's like saying "I like the right side of Mona Lisa more than the left". Okay, that's fine, me too, but that doesn't make it a seperate painting.

Completely Nailed.
Turn Down for What.
Deal With It
You sir, just won DTF.
Nothing can be said against this 

[Train of Naught]

It's like saying "I like the right side of Mona Lisa more than the left". Okay, that's fine, me too, but that doesn't make it a seperate painting.

I can't read Mona Lisa without thinking of Blind Faith anymore damnit.

[KevShmev]

Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..

Okay how about this, they can be seen by as two seperate pieces, many people have split them in their rankings so that ultimately comes down to how one wants to do personally. But when it comes to whether or not it actually is one or two songs, there is only one true answer that doesn't change based on varying opinions. It's like saying "I like the right side of Mona Lisa more than the left". Okay, that's fine, me too, but that doesn't make it a seperate painting.

Or we could say that they are two separate tracks, which is factually correct, since one is track 1 and the other is track 8.

[IdoSC]

Disclaimer: Systematic Chaos is my 2nd least favorite DT album, the first being BCSL.

On we go:
WORST
Repentance - one of my least favorite DT songs. Maybe even my least favourite song...no, wait, that's A Rite of Passage. Boring, annoying, insanely repetitive, has this narcissistic vibe about it that I cannot stand in its lyrics, mood, and the weird "let's bring a bunch of famous prog/metal artists to say a line or two for 4 minutes" idea. Ugh.

Constant Motion - I first realized I don't like this song when it invaded my otherwise ecstatic experience of my first Dream Theater concert in 2009. People around me were jumping and having a blast while I kind of snoozed around, during this song and during A Rite of Passage (did I mention I HATE that song?), while I just didn't feel anything, not even in a live setting. It's nice to listen to, rarely, but it feels so much like something that would come out from a different band. A band that is made out of a bunch of musicians that aren't half as talented as DT. I enjoy this song the same way I enjoy the occasional Guns n' Roses or Avenged Sevenfold song.

The Dark Eternal Night - I've had the opposite experience with this one compared to CM. I used to kinda dislike it and it bored me in the studio version, then I heard it in Chaos in Motion (and it was still bad mostly because of the quality of that DVD), then the band started playing it again during ADTOE's tour and it was much, much better. Then it clicked with me.

The Ministry of Lost Souls - I believe bosk1 said earlier something about this song being a DT song "by the book" or so (sorry if I'm misquoting here). I completely agree, and it clicked with me much more. I like the way the song is written and the lyrics are occasionally charming, otherwise awkward.

Prophets of War - One thing I hate about numerous songs from ToT through BCSL (although I still love 8VM and really like ToT), and the reason SC and BCSL are my least favourite albums, is that many songs don't sound at all like DT. It's like they tried to mimic another band and forgot to give it their own spin, especially in SC and BCSL, less so in the other two. This song in particular feels like an exception to me. Plus, I love the kind of band(s) they "borrowed" the style from.

Forsaken - One of DT's finest "single-ready" songs.

In the Presence of Enemies - Pt. I is brilliant in its energy and composition. Pt. II is very similar to Ministry, in that it feels like a playbook DT song in its structure, but it also has a very distinct sound and feel and I love how big and grandiose it sounds. Put them together and you get an amazing epic. It's a shame they didn't, but I'll forver listen to the CiM version, or to my edited complete studio version.
BEST

[ToT-147]

Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..

Okay how about this, they can be seen by as two seperate pieces, many people have split them in their rankings so that ultimately comes down to how one wants to do personally. But when it comes to whether or not it actually is one or two songs, there is only one true answer that doesn't change based on varying opinions. It's like saying "I like the right side of Mona Lisa more than the left". Okay, that's fine, me too, but that doesn't make it a seperate painting.

You're saying that "actually", based, ultimately, in the way Portnoy see ItPoE.. But his opinion, to me, it's like everyone else's in this particular occasion, given the complicated nature of the case (precisely this: I make one song, but then I split it into two... so, are they two tracks now or two songs? The answer is up each one..)

I say "in this particular occasion", because I won't be discussing to him the meaning of lyrics he wrote, because only he can know for sure their true essences, and there's no other thing to do other than like it or not..

That leads me to say that your example is not the indicated, because I'm not saying that I consider both ItPoE as two songs because I like one over the other.. They could be equally good to my taste and I'd still think they're separate songs..

[BlackInk]

Oh come on, the 'liking' wasn't even the point, the seperating one from the other was.

[ToT-147]

But the fact that they ARE separated it's not a personal opinion.. They are.. And while you take it as separate tracks only, I take it as separate songs as well.. Maybe it's a semantic issue, and it's semantically confusing, paraphrasing your personal text.. 

[Dublagent66]

Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..

ITPOE presents a unique situation where I think there are valid points to argue both, and I don't think the band would take a firm position one way or the other because of the unique circumstances surrounding this song.

IMO this summarizes the thing very well, except that I'd change the last part for: these songs..

Actually, ITPOE was written during the Octavarium sessions as 8 songs but it didn't fit on the album.  So, they decided to release the condensed version as 2 tracks on Systematic Chaos.  However, I think it's still believed to be 8 songs.  Oh wait, maybe that was SDOIT.  Nah...

[Darkstarshades]

Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..

ITPOE presents a unique situation where I think there are valid points to argue both, and I don't think the band would take a firm position one way or the other because of the unique circumstances surrounding this song.

IMO this summarizes the thing very well, except that I'd change the last part for: these songs..

Actually, ITPOE was written during the Octavarium sessions as 8 songs but it didn't fit on the album.  So, they decided to release the condensed version as 2 tracks on Systematic Chaos.  However, I think it's still believed to be 8 songs.  Oh wait, maybe that was SDOIT.  Nah...

That's a Mind Beside itself, u ignorant.

[hefdaddy42]

But the fact that they ARE separated it's not a personal opinion.. They are.. And while you take it as separate tracks only, I take it as separate songs as well..

But it's not separate songs.  Not sure why you are so insistent on this.

Also not sure why you insist that the opinions of the people who actually wrote the song don't matter.

[The Dark Master]

The band has said ITPOE is one song.  No matter how many tracks it is divided into (2, 5, 25 or whatever), the band still considers it to be one song.  Since it was the band that created the piece, they are the ones who get to decide what constitutes a "song" and what constitutes a "suite".  So if the band says ITPOE is a single song, but AMBI is a suite, that means ITPOE is a single song and AMBI is a suite.  If they want to count 6DOIT as one big 42 minute song, but consider the 5 AA tracks to be separate songs that together form a suite, that is their decision to make, not ours.  Really, we can run around in circles debating what makes something a "song" based on repetition of riffs, verses, melodies, etc, but at the end of the day, our opinions on the subject don't really matter.  Dream Theater are the artists who wrote the thing, not us.  They are the creators of the work, therefore they, and they alone, get to say what is a song, and what is not.  That is the prerogative of the artist, not of their fans.

Also, on the subject of the thread:

1 - ITPOE
2 - TDEN
3 - Forsaken
4 - Constant Motion
5 - Prophets of War
6 - TMOLS
7 - Repentance

[Zook]

In the Chaos In Progress documentary it shows JP recording the solo at the end of Part 1, and you hear Part 2 immediately start after he's done playing indicating it's.... Wait for it... One song.

[ToT-147]

not sure why you insist that the opinions of the people who actually wrote the song don't matter.

They matter to them, and also to us, but only for giving us their perspective... but there will still be people, like me, that think otherwise.. Again, this is not like believing something different about the meaning of one lyric when its creator is revealing it..

if the band says ITPOE is a single song, but AMBI is a suite, that means ITPOE is a single song and AMBI is a suite. 

As I said before: we're talking about the same band that has labeled a song as False Awakening SUITE, and at the same time has decided a name such as The Twelve Step SUITE for a set of songs.. I have no problem at all with this, but I'm only mentioning it to point out the subjective these things are..

In the Chaos In Progress documentary it shows JP recording the solo at the end of Part 1, and you hear Part 2 immediately start after he's done playing indicating it's.... Wait for it... One song.

Probably there's no video of this, but they could have (and I think they have) recorded together The Mirror and Lie, but that doesn't indicate it's one song at all.. Like all the examples already mentioned: Burning My Soul/Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the Sand, AMBI, and I add these two: As I Am/This Dying Soul and Vacant/Stream of Consciousness.. These last two songs even share the same chord progression, so why they're not one song but two?..

We don't know everything is on their minds, so about some stuff we can easily use our free expresion ability to have a posture about unclear things like these..

[The Dark Master]

First of all, False Awakening Suite was clearly a tongue in cheek thing.  The track is all of 2 minutes and 42 seconds long, and it is divided into 3 "movements".  Obviously, calling it a suite was intended as a joke.

We don't know everything is on their minds, so about some stuff we can easily use our free expresion ability to have a posture about unclear things like these..

But that's the thing, though: there is nothing unclear about this matter at all.  The band themselves have said it is one song.  That's it.  Period.  They wrote the song, they get to say what it is.  Bosk already pointed out that the only reason why it was divided into two tracks was because the band could not decide if it was better to have it at the beginning or end of the album. Their decision had nothing to do with making ITPOE into two distinct "songs", and was done purely for the sake of album flow. 

There is no room for debate about this.  The artists who created the piece have said what it is, and, as the creators, they are the ones who get to define the nature of their work.  It's one song, two tracks.  That's it. 

[Dublagent66]

Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..

ITPOE presents a unique situation where I think there are valid points to argue both, and I don't think the band would take a firm position one way or the other because of the unique circumstances surrounding this song.

IMO this summarizes the thing very well, except that I'd change the last part for: these songs..

Actually, ITPOE was written during the Octavarium sessions as 8 songs but it didn't fit on the album.  So, they decided to release the condensed version as 2 tracks on Systematic Chaos.  However, I think it's still believed to be 8 songs.  Oh wait, maybe that was SDOIT.  Nah...

That's a Mind Beside itself, u ignorant.

Safe in the ass that surrounds you.

[Zook]

not sure why you insist that the opinions of the people who actually wrote the song don't matter.

They matter to them, and also to us, but only for giving us their perspective... but there will still be people, like me, that think otherwise.. Again, this is not like believing something different about the meaning of one lyric when its creator is revealing it..

if the band says ITPOE is a single song, but AMBI is a suite, that means ITPOE is a single song and AMBI is a suite. 

As I said before: we're talking about the same band that has labeled a song as False Awakening SUITE, and at the same time has decided a name such as The Twelve Step SUITE for a set of songs.. I have no problem at all with this, but I'm only mentioning it to point out the subjective these things are..

In the Chaos In Progress documentary it shows JP recording the solo at the end of Part 1, and you hear Part 2 immediately start after he's done playing indicating it's.... Wait for it... One song.

Probably there's no video of this, but they could have (and I think they have) recorded together The Mirror and Lie, but that doesn't indicate it's one song at all.. Like all the examples already mentioned: Burning My Soul/Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the Sand, AMBI, and I add these two: As I Am/This Dying Soul and Vacant/Stream of Consciousness.. These last two songs even share the same chord progression, so why they're not one song but two?..

We don't know everything is on their minds, so about some stuff we can easily use our free expresion ability to have a posture about unclear things like these..

The Mirror and Lie are clearly two seperate songs. Their only relation is The Mirror's reprise at the end of Lie, but there's also the melody of Space Dye Vest in The Mirror, but those are also two seperate songs. DT like to do stuff like that. I'm not sure how you think As I Am and This Dying Soul are related though.

[JayOctavarium]

ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THE MIRROR / LIE / SPACE DYE AREN'T A SUITE??

[ToT-147]

In the Chaos In Progress documentary it shows JP recording the solo at the end of Part 1, and you hear Part 2 immediately start after he's done playing indicating it's.... Wait for it... One song.

Probably there's no video of this, but they could have (and I think they have) recorded together The Mirror and Lie, but that doesn't indicate it's one song at all.. Like all the examples already mentioned: Burning My Soul/Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the Sand, AMBI, and I add these two: As I Am/This Dying Soul and Vacant/Stream of Consciousness.. These last two songs even share the same chord progression, so why they're not one song but two?..

The Mirror and Lie are clearly two seperate songs. Their only relation is The Mirror's reprise at the end of Lie, but there's also the melody of Space Dye Vest in The Mirror, but those are also two seperate songs. DT like to do stuff like that. I'm not sure how you think As I Am and This Dying Soul are related though.

I'm talking about the specific moment in which the end of some songs (BmS, HK, Erotomania, The Mirror, As I Am and Vacant) and the very beginning of some other songs (HK, LitS, Voices, Lie, TDS and SoC) it's happening and they seem to have been recorded as one, even when they're two different songs.. They seem, because they can be obviously recorded not at once, and then pasted together (when you can't perceive when a song you're listening for the first time ends and the next one starts), or they can be recorded together and then split in the mix, like the case of ItPoE..

That split, I see it as a split into songs, and you as a split into tracks.. And okay, you're vast majority on this one, but you're all sounding very natural by saying something it'd sound pretty wrong or at least strange to everyone who doesn't know ItPoE's kind of situation.. As someone said before: "SC has 8 tracks, but only 7 songs"... So we are talking here about a one-of-a-kind thing.. That could give you all a clue of my disagreement and genuine reluctance to accept such a thing so readily..

[jammindude]

So this is what I must sound like to you guys in the P/R thread....

[ToT-147]

Don't do that.. Now I wanna read that thread, but I'm suspecting I can't.. 

[The Letter M]

You can't use the notion that, just because we don't know how EVERYTHING goes down in the studio, in the band members' heads, that we can't accept the facts that we DO know from them about certain songs and/or tracks they have written/recording/released.

And if you're going to argue that just because two or more songs segue into each other, that there's the possibility that they were recording simultaneous, that's NOT very likely at all. Case in point - the entirety of Scenes From A Memory runs as two large sections, "Act 1" and "Act 2", with a break between "Through Her Eyes" and "Home". Before and after that break, the tracks and songs all run continuously, segueing into each other, but they were definitely not all recorded or even written around the same time. All those segues were cross-faded in production/post-production, during mixing and mastering. There was no way they would record 35-40 minutes of music straight through like that.

Another example would be the first 5 songs on Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence, where the tracks all cross-fade/segue from one into the other. I'm sure if there weren't any limitations of the physical format/medium, then "Disappear" would've segued into the beginning of the title song as well. Segueing tracks is something a lot of prog bands do, whether to indicate similar melodic/harmonic/lyrical/thematic/narrative ideas, or perhaps "just because". It's a very PROG thing to do, since the 70's and even the 60's. The Beatles did it a bit too, but considering how frantic their recording sessions ran (with dozens of takes for certain songs and such), I doubt they wrote or recorded those songs together, nor intended any of them to be considering as one song. And The Beatles are one of THE MOST documented bands in the history of modern rock and roll, so any of their thoughts on their music are widely known.

Now, Dream Theater surely aren't The Beatles, but I think we, as fans, can accept what they have shared with us regarding their music, and fans who have known them for a very long time (since the beginning, or even before IAW and/or Awake), can attest to their ideas and notions regarding things like calling "A Mind Beside Itself" a suite and not a song.

TL:DR - Trapped inside this great debate...

-Marc.

[BlackInk]

You're arguing clear and pretty undeniable evidence with personal belief here. If you, when you rank the songs of the album or whatever, want to split them up, then fine, that's fine. But I don't understand why you're persistant in actually trying to debate all the points we're making when you have the same points to back your side up over and over. Points that are actually unrelated to this discussion. You keep bringing up AMBI and the 12SS, but there's no confusion or relevant parable to be made there at all. It is just as clear that those are 3 and 5 songs that it is that ITPoE is one.

[ToT-147]

And if you're going to argue that just because two or more songs segue into each other, that there's the possibility that they were recording simultaneous, that's NOT very likely at all.

Maybe I should do your TL/DR stuff.. I quote myself:

I'm talking about the specific moment in which the end of some songs and the very beginning of some other songs it's happening and they seem to have been recorded as one, even when they're two different songs.. They seem, because they can be obviously recorded not at once, and then pasted together, or they can be recorded together and then split in the mix, like the case of ItPoE..

I was precisely saying that not because ItPoE pt 1 and pt 2 were recorded together that necessarily means they're one song.. Because if so, then we should be considering the two acts from SFAM as two songs, or the first CD of SDoIT as one song, to stay in your examples.. Besides that, another argument that is against ItPoE being one song is the fact that it is separated (literally) by six tracks in the album..

You're arguing clear and pretty undeniable evidence with personal belief here.

The clear and pretty undeniable evidence you're talking about it's precisely a personal belief.. Portnoy's personal belief.. And if we are being so strict about things, or "facts", we should say that he is not the only creator of ItPoE, and maybe the less important of the four (musically speaking)..

I know that's another subject, but if you're gonna argue that because "has been stated by the piece's creators" that is one song therefore is indisputable that it is, when it's actually and clearly split it (for presentation purposes, okay, but split it either way) then you should say too that the decision was up to one person.. And, for the last time, this is not like the meaning of a song, that it's only possible known for sure by asking to its lyricist.. This is a different kind of issue, a semantic one as I say before..

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

And, for the last time, this is not like the meaning of a song, that it's only possible known for sure by asking to its lyricist..

This kinda seems like.... exactly the same thing as that.

[The Letter M]

https://www.musicplayers.com/features/guitars/2007/0607_John_Petrucci.php

MPc:  The opening track, “In The Presence Of Enemies Part I,” is one of my favorite Dream Theater songs ever. And I have to ask you – four and a half minutes into it comes this gorgeous clean delayed tone. Tell us about that tone, because it just hit me and I was like… “Wow!”

JP:  Well first of all, thanks for saying that. You’re one of the people who can appreciate a song like that because literally that was the first thing that we wrote together after being off for five months. The song was written as an entire twenty-five minute piece, and then we broke it up into two parts. When we finished up, I remember thinking and saying to the guys, “You know what? People that are fans of our music are really gonna’ like this song because it has all the elements that make us who we are.”

From the lyricist and one of, if not the prominent composer(s) of the piece. One song, two parts/tracks.

- Marc.

[Lolzeez]

In The Presences Of Enemies Part 1 
The Dark Eternal Night 
Repentance 
The Ministry Of Lost Souls 
Constant Motion 
In The Presences Of Enemies Part 2 
Forsaken 
Prophets Of War 

[ToT-147]

https://www.musicplayers.com/features/guitars/2007/0607_John_Petrucci.php

MPc:  The opening track, “In The Presence Of Enemies Part I,” is one of my favorite Dream Theater songs ever. And I have to ask you – four and a half minutes into it comes this gorgeous clean delayed tone. Tell us about that tone, because it just hit me and I was like… “Wow!”

JP:  Well first of all, thanks for saying that. You’re one of the people who can appreciate a song like that because literally that was the first thing that we wrote together after being off for five months. The song was written as an entire twenty-five minute piece, and then we broke it up into two parts. When we finished up, I remember thinking and saying to the guys, “You know what? People that are fans of our music are really gonna’ like this song because it has all the elements that make us who we are.”

From the lyricist and one of, if not the prominent composer(s) of the piece. One song, two parts/tracks.

- Marc.

Okay, but even if with that you beat my argument about MP, that doesn't change anything about ItPoE being two songs.. In fact you can see how the interviewer says ItoPE part 1 is one song, and doesn't say "it's one of my favorites tracks ever".. He doesn't, because that would be ridiculous (before being a track, ItPoE 1, is a song).. As ridiculous, to my ears, as saying ItPoE part 1 and two aren't two songs.. And JP didn't correct him about that.. He didn't say "it's impossible for you to like it as a song, because it isn't, it's just a track", or something like that..

Then he said the thing we all already know, that ItPoE was a song at first, but then was split it into two parts, for MP's decision (thing that he wouldn't say, of course).. He didn't say tracks, so you are altering what he said by saying "One song, two parts/tracks.".. Besides, bear in mind the problem with ItPoE part 1 and 2 being two parts, as JP said.. What about "Heretic"?, i.e.. Would it be a part of a part?.. Mmm, it still sounding quite inappropriate..

[jakepriest]

Jesus you must really detest the sole notion  that ITPOE could be single song. Even politicians don't argue over something this much. 

[ToT-147]

You certainly don't live in my country.. We are mostly that way over here.. And I'm far from detesting it, I just think differently.. That's all..

Oh, and I'm not the only one arguing here.. I have the whole DTF against me..