Author Topic: Terminator franchise  (Read 4970 times)

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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2015, 01:57:33 AM »
The timeline is so messed up in Terminator that it's not going to work perfectly either way, but the first point is explainable.

The movie is set after the "Judgement Day" date as they knew it in the timeline of T1/T2, so I take it as the next iteration of the timeline, with the John Connor who sent back THIS Terminator being the one who went through the events of T2, whereas the Terminator that got sent back in T2 is the result of the timeline that only factors in T1, ie. likely a timeline where Judgement Day was not stopped in 1997, but T1 happened. At some point, there must have been an original timeline where Kyle Reese was not John Connor's father, but that's another story.

So the Terminator of T3 was programmed by the John Connor who went through the events of T2, and programmed this one with some of that knowledge, rather than the blank slate of T2.

It's been a while since I've seen T3, but point 2 seems fairly inexcusable, and seems like just a throwaway callback at the expense of logic for a joke. This is a John Connor who has spent his life off the grid because of what happened in T2, so the fact that Terminators are churned out on assembly lines should be second nature to him.

That said, I still quite like Terminator 3, and don't think it's the abomination that people make it out to be. It certainly wasn't a necessary film though.

I've only watched Salvation once at the cinema, but it didn't live up to the future war that was shown in the first two movies. Again, I didn't think it was quite as bad as people make it out to be though, but it could have been so much more, and also had a lot of problems.
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Offline adace

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2015, 04:11:26 AM »
Movie was decent but definitely one of the least impressive ones I've seen this year. The confusing timeline and rehashing of material just makes me appreciate even more what classics T1 and T2 are.

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2015, 06:43:14 AM »
Agreed... those moments were lol-worthy, and frankly, I hated both Nick Stahl as John, and Danes as his future-wife was pretty bad as well.  The main story arch was good; the action scenes were good; the conclusion was fantastic.  I also hated how when Terminator 101 got corrupted, he didn't just crush Connor's larynx in 1/2 a second.  C'mon!  If the terminator wanted to kill Connor, he would've done it in a split second.  I could've bouugh the whole "you're about to fail your mission" as a means to create this paradox of programming within Arnie - but not after/while he got his paws wrapped around Connor's throat.
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Offline Bolsters

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2015, 06:51:03 AM »
I think what kills T3 the most for me is the silly humour. Like when the TX stomps the head of the T-800, and it just pops it back on without any apparent loss of function despite its head having been almost completely removed. The whole movie was rife with stuff like that and it seemed like more of an action-comedy, which isn't a bad thing on its own, but neither of the first two were like that. I didn't like the shift in tone and I didn't think any of it was actually funny anyway.

Offline BlackInk

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2015, 07:04:30 AM »
So the Terminator of T3 was programmed by the John Connor who went through the events of T2, and programmed this one with some of that knowledge, rather than the blank slate of T2.

Wasn't the T3 terminator programmed by Catherine though? After it was captured after having succeeded in its attempt to assassinate John?
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2015, 07:19:19 AM »
So the Terminator of T3 was programmed by the John Connor who went through the events of T2, and programmed this one with some of that knowledge, rather than the blank slate of T2.

Wasn't the T3 terminator programmed by Catherine though? After it was captured after having succeeded in its attempt to assassinate John?

I don't know. As I said, it's been a while since I've watched it properly, although I've seen it at probably 4 or 5 times.

I think what kills T3 the most for me is the silly humour. Like when the TX stomps the head of the T-800, and it just pops it back on without any apparent loss of function despite its head having been almost completely removed. The whole movie was rife with stuff like that and it seemed like more of an action-comedy, which isn't a bad thing on its own, but neither of the first two were like that. I didn't like the shift in tone and I didn't think any of it was actually funny anyway.

I don't mind some humour, and I wouldn't T3 an action-comedy even at a stretch. I especially liked the joke with the clothes/glasses at the start. T2 had its share of humour too, but it kept a serious tone.
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Offline Bolsters

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2015, 07:50:43 AM »
I'm just very particular about what kinds of humour I like and don't like. The humour in the first two films is my kind of thing, the humour in the third not at all.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2015, 07:57:39 AM »
I'm just very particular about what kinds of humour I like and don't like. The humour in the first two films is my kind of thing, the humour in the third not at all.

That's fair enough. I personally have no problem with the humour in T3, and I like to defend the movie as being decent, but it's not like I'd begin to compare it to T1 or T2 or anything.
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2015, 08:06:55 AM »
The "talk to the hand" stuff is pretty funny.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2015, 03:20:50 PM »
http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-bag-terminator-genisys/

Half In The Bag review Terminator Genisys.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2015, 03:21:23 PM »
The "talk to the hand" stuff is pretty funny.

Most of the crap people hate on this movie for pretty much is over in the first few minutes as well.

Offline Zook

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2015, 03:34:19 PM »
The gas station attendant at the end of The Terminator was kind of a dick. He spoke pretty good English, but just stood there while Sarah tried to communicate to him with a translator book.

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2015, 04:13:55 PM »
I think T3 is alright. It's not as bad as some people say, but I would still put it under T1, T2 and Genisys.

What bothers me the most about T3 is the B-movie feel it has. It's a combination of the cinematography and casting Nick Stahl/Claire Danes (at least to me, two completely unknown actors at the time the movie came out) and for some reason it just felt like a straight to video release. Compared to T1 or T2, it feels much cheaper. Still, Arnie is in it, it has some cool stuff and the ending was pretty dark and a ballsy move. Much better than Salvation, the low point of the franchise, but still only alright as a whole.

Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2015, 06:32:53 PM »
Just saw the new one. I really liked it, even though probably as a guilty pleasure. T1 and T2 are two of my favorite movies of all time so T5 is kind of a cool addition to the series with what it does.

And the part where Bad boyz was playing and arnold smiles during the mug shot  :rollin
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 08:11:11 PM by Phoenix87x »
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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2015, 07:44:10 PM »
Really enjoyed Genisys, but the only glitch is how THIS Sarah knows how things with the T1 Sarah end up with Kyle Reese. Otherwise, really good.

As for T3, all you need to know is that there are some great action scenes, and it ends with Judgment Day. Other than that, not much to add to the franchise.  Stahl was terrible IMO.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2015, 10:56:22 PM »
Really enjoyed Genisys, but the only glitch is how THIS Sarah knows how things with the T1 Sarah end up with Kyle Reese. Otherwise, really good.

I don't think there's a problem. This Terminator was sent back from a future timeline where T1 had happened (as it was in T2 as well), and whoever sent it back programmed it to give Sarah Connor all information. John Connor and Sarah Connor both had this information, as could potentially the machines.
As the movie intentionally leaves it open who actually sent this Terminator back to help Sarah Connor in this movie, it seems to be an important question that they'll answer in a potential sequel.
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Offline Zook

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2015, 06:07:48 AM »
Genesys was entertaining. That's the best way I can describe it. I liked it better than T3 and I'd say it's on par with Salvation. I don't hate Salvation like most people do. If I were to rate the movies, they'd be like this:

T1 - 10/10
T2 - 10/10
T3 - 4/10
T4 - 7/10
T5 - 7/10


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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2015, 06:46:08 AM »
What the hey, I'll join in.

T1 - 9/10
T2 - 10/10
T3 - 7/10
T4 - 5/10
T5 - 8/10

Something like that.
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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2015, 07:13:48 AM »
Really enjoyed Genisys, but the only glitch is how THIS Sarah knows how things with the T1 Sarah end up with Kyle Reese. Otherwise, really good.

I don't think there's a problem. This Terminator was sent back from a future timeline where T1 had happened (as it was in T2 as well), and whoever sent it back programmed it to give Sarah Connor all information. John Connor and Sarah Connor both had this information, as could potentially the machines.
As the movie intentionally leaves it open who actually sent this Terminator back to help Sarah Connor in this movie, it seems to be an important question that they'll answer in a potential sequel.

I suppose.  But in the 2029 where all the Terminator's are sent back, that seems like a lot of unnecessary details to 'program' into a Terminator.  The only way Genisys works is that T1 is the only movie still intact.  The T-800 and T-1000 that were originally sent to T2, now actually get sent to 1973 instead, creating that new timeline.  How/why would John program those details of Sarah's original encounter with Kyle into that T-800, I'm not buying into. 

I'm with Blob... though (like Zook) I like Salvation... I put it on par with Rise.

T1 - 9/10
T2 - 10/10
T3 - 7/10
T4 - 7/10
T5 - 8/10
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2015, 07:24:01 AM »
Really enjoyed Genisys, but the only glitch is how THIS Sarah knows how things with the T1 Sarah end up with Kyle Reese. Otherwise, really good.

I don't think there's a problem. This Terminator was sent back from a future timeline where T1 had happened (as it was in T2 as well), and whoever sent it back programmed it to give Sarah Connor all information. John Connor and Sarah Connor both had this information, as could potentially the machines.
As the movie intentionally leaves it open who actually sent this Terminator back to help Sarah Connor in this movie, it seems to be an important question that they'll answer in a potential sequel.

I suppose.  But in the 2029 where all the Terminator's are sent back, that seems like a lot of unnecessary details to 'program' into a Terminator.  The only way Genisys works is that T1 is the only movie still intact.  The T-800 and T-1000 that were originally sent to T2, now actually get sent to 1973 instead, creating that new timeline.  How/why would John program those details of Sarah's original encounter with Kyle into that T-800, I'm not buying into. 


I don't see why it's that much to program into a Terminator. The Terminator in T2 had just as much information. And without knowing who sent it back, or under what circumstances, I don't think there's any reason to question it.
But you're right that this can't be the T2 timeline, because they were going to travel to 1997 to stop judgement day, which got stopped/delayed in T2. It's probably best not to scrutinize the timelines, because it's never worked too well or been explained well enough to be solid, even in T1/T2.

Also keep in mind I've only seen T4/5 once at the cinema, so I wouldn't consider those ratings to be as definite as the first three.
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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2015, 08:12:04 AM »
I don't see why it's that much to program into a Terminator. The Terminator in T2 had just as much information. And without knowing who sent it back, or under what circumstances, I don't think there's any reason to question it.

Possibly... but the T800 from T2 had "detailed files" on what was likely public information (ie, Miles Dyson).  The Sarah/Kyle interaction from T1 was known only to 1 person by 2029 - John. 

I don't mean to pick it apart... I can certainly overlook it.  I just thought it was the biggest 'how-did-she-know-that-shit' moment.  Everything else was really well explained.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2015, 08:17:38 AM »
I don't see why it's that much to program into a Terminator. The Terminator in T2 had just as much information. And without knowing who sent it back, or under what circumstances, I don't think there's any reason to question it.

Possibly... but the T800 from T2 had "detailed files" on what was likely public information (ie, Miles Dyson).  The Sarah/Kyle interaction from T1 was known only to 1 person by 2029 - John. 

I don't mean to pick it apart... I can certainly overlook it.  I just thought it was the biggest 'how-did-she-know-that-shit' moment.  Everything else was really well explained.

How much is there really to know though? Kyle Reese is John Connor's father. I think it's safe to say that any good Terminator was sent back by someone at least very close to John Connor, if not John Connor himself.
And the origin of this Terminator was intentionally left open, so I didn't find anything implausible there yet. Let's leave that criticism for the next movie! If they get that far, which I doubt.  :-\

As I said in my initial review, my biggest gripe was actually the idea of them building a time machine for the sake of travelling not that far forward in time to a time so close to judgement day. They'd have been much better off just living through it.
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Offline Zook

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2015, 09:05:00 AM »
I don't see why it's that much to program into a Terminator. The Terminator in T2 had just as much information. And without knowing who sent it back, or under what circumstances, I don't think there's any reason to question it.

Possibly... but the T800 from T2 had "detailed files" on what was likely public information (ie, Miles Dyson).  The Sarah/Kyle interaction from T1 was known only to 1 person by 2029 - John. 

I don't mean to pick it apart... I can certainly overlook it.  I just thought it was the biggest 'how-did-she-know-that-shit' moment.  Everything else was really well explained.

How much is there really to know though? Kyle Reese is John Connor's father. I think it's safe to say that any good Terminator was sent back by someone at least very close to John Connor, if not John Connor himself.
And the origin of this Terminator was intentionally left open, so I didn't find anything implausible there yet. Let's leave that criticism for the next movie! If they get that far, which I doubt.  :-\

Considering the Godzilla '98 stinger at the end, and Sarah being much younger in the future and with an altered timeline, I'm betting she sends back the terminator to protect herself.

Offline BlackInk

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2015, 09:26:07 AM »
This is why I loved the idea of Salvation. That it would move past all this stuff. The chronology of the first three are simple enough and they end with the actual judgement day happening. What I would have loved is what they originally planned: The next trilogy of movies dealing with the actual war on the machines. Salvation was unfortunately not a success (although I like it), which is a damn shame because now with Genisys, they moved away from the logical step in the franchise. This 'reboot the timeline thing' just makes me roll my eyes. I haven't seen the new one yet, and maybe it's good, but I just wish they had been able to do what they originally planned.
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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2015, 09:34:42 AM »
Personally I don't think the future war is all that great a story in itself, and I don't think Salvation lived up to the potential of what was shown and described in the first two movies either.

I like the overall direction of Genisys, even if there were choices I didn't agree with such forcing it into (basically) the present day. I like the concept of the timeline in this constant state of flux as the war is fought on multiple fronts in time more than the idea of a future man vs machine story.
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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2015, 09:49:05 AM »
Fundamentally, I liked what T3 accomplished in that, despite the 'delay' in Judgment Day that T2 created, Judgment Day still actually did happen.  I like the idea that Sarah sends the T800 back, but again... everything is predicated on the fact that there are machines, so Judgment Day has to happen at some point - in some timeline.  How does the T5 "Sarah" send a Terminator back if Judgment day doesn't happen?

Timelines:  messing with your head since 1984.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2015, 09:59:34 AM »
Fundamentally, I liked what T3 accomplished in that, despite the 'delay' in Judgment Day that T2 created, Judgment Day still actually did happen.  I like the idea that Sarah sends the T800 back, but again... everything is predicated on the fact that there are machines, so Judgment Day has to happen at some point - in some timeline.  How does the T5 "Sarah" send a Terminator back if Judgment day doesn't happen?

Timelines:  messing with your head since 1984.

Which is before I was born, WHICH MESSES WITH MY HEAD EVEN MORE!

I think every timeline assumes that Judgement Day happens at some point, just not necessarily at the same time in history, as if it's inevitable that machines become sentient and decide that humanity must go (which I'm cool with). I don't think there's any timeline yet where Judgement Day definitely doesn't happen at all.
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Offline bl5150

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2015, 10:03:18 AM »
My Judgement is that this thread is f^%&*$# confusing  ;D  I'm going to see it on Saturday most likely -not sure whether I am better to just go or confuse myself watching the others first.
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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2015, 10:07:40 AM »
Watch the first two, then watch Genisys. Past that you're on your own.
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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2015, 10:16:34 AM »
Watch the first two, then watch Genisys. Past that you're on your own.

Agreed... 1 & 2 are mandatory; 4 is optional; 3 is redundant.
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Offline Zook

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2015, 10:28:04 AM »
The time travel stuff in these movies was always screwy. There are paradoxes, and then there are Terminator paradoxes. The whole plot wouldn't be possible to begin with (John sending his own father back in time to father him), but if we ignore that, yes, stopping judgement day entirely wouldn't work as there are machines in the past helping to stop it. Why the characters never think of this is beyond me, but judgement day must happen in order for there to be any chance to stop it, but it is absolutely impossible to prevent it entirely.

Jeremy Irons' character from The Time Machine explains it perfectly:

"You built your time machine because of Emma's death. If she had lived, it would never have existed. So how could you use your machine to go back in time and save her? You are the inescapable result of your tragedy, just as I am the inescapable result of you. You have your answer. Now go."

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2015, 10:33:34 AM »
The time travel stuff in these movies was always screwy. There are paradoxes, and then there are Terminator paradoxes. The whole plot wouldn't be possible to begin with (John sending his own father back in time to father him), but if we ignore that, yes, stopping judgement day entirely wouldn't work as there are machines in the past helping to stop it. Why the characters never think of this is beyond me, but judgement day must happen in order for there to be any chance to stop it, but it is absolutely impossible to prevent it entirely.


The only way it's possible is if at some point Kyle Reese was not John Connor's father, so it's a different John Connor altogether.
The timeline is messed up no matter how you look at it, but I generally don't look at it using a single timeline where you have causality paradoxes such as the ones you've described. I think of it as branching off to a new timeline where there isn't an issue there, different to say BTTF where Marty started to fade out because he'd stopped his parents from getting together.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline BlackInk

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2015, 10:50:36 AM »
Well, that's not really how time travel would work (theoretically of course), so there is no problem in stopping Judgement Day with a machine from the future to help.
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Online jingle.boy

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2015, 10:59:57 AM »
You're assuming that time is linear, that there is only one timeline, and changes to the past affect the current future of that past (ala BTTF as Blob points out).  Time could be like the ST:TNG episode "Parallels" where Worf opens up space to the infinite number of possible timelines.

I tend to go with the latter.  If not, that would suggest time travel is either impossible, or has never been created/never will be created.
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That's meme-speak for "We are really f*****g lazy when we can't eve say full words".

Offline BlackInk

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Re: Terminator franchise
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2015, 12:03:38 PM »
Yeah, traveling back in time would most likely be more like resetting everything, no paradoxes like this would really be in play. But that's how movies work, which I'm fine with.
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