Author Topic: Why was it necessary for Jesus to die, and to die in the manner he did?  (Read 9038 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 9501
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show

Somebody above, I think it was Jammin, suggested that we must do as God wills, not as we will. We must love as God wants us to love, not as we want to love. Ok, but whenever the question is raised as to why, every single time the reply, at root, is: because it will ultimately lead to your happiness. Which to me just seems once again to be a form of pure self-interest. You're not 'loving God' because it brings him joy, you're loving him because to do so will bring (you hope) YOU joy. Just as in sexual psychology, some people have a natural urge to love, and others prefer to be loved. You tried living a life of self-absorption, and it didn't bring you 'happiness', so now you're trying a life of submission of the self...but still only because you want to find joy. Same hoped-for destination, entirely different route, but the egoist impulse remains the same. On which basis (again, other than personal preference) can you claim that the God-route is more valid than the self-route, when the desired end is identical?

Well, in this instance, it's because we are learning what love is.   Remember that we are born flawed, therefore we cannot love perfectly.    We love God because he first loved us, and he is teaching us what perfect love is.     

It's true that often times, because of our inherent selfish nature, we may initially pursue this course out of a sense of self-interest.   But the more we learn about God and what he's done for us...the more we feel his love for us in our lives...it then becomes something we just want to do out of appreciation.    We are moved to be more like him because of the love he has shown us.    We are moved to defend him when others attack his honor...out of love.     

Let's pick a great character out of a hat (for objectivity's sake) and make him real for a sec.    Atticus Finch is often heralded as one of the greatest works of modern fiction, and many people wish they had a father like him.    So let's say you had a father that was just that amazing a man.   (you can insert your own ideal father figure if Atticus doesn't work for you...it's really a red herring).    But now let's say that someone started spreading stories that he was a child molester, or a serial rapist...and you having lived your life with him, know that it is absolutely and totally not true.     Would your action to defend him be motivated purely by self interest?   Not really.   They are motivated by love and a sense of justice.     In fact, you would most likely throw self interest under the bus and go out of your way to clear his name at great cost to yourself.     
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 06:59:46 PM by jammindude »
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7461
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
...but whenever the question is raised as to why, every single time the reply, at root, is: because it will ultimately lead to your happiness.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I never said any such thing.  Nor would I.  The reason we should follow God's commands is because it is our purpose.  The result of doing God's will may often be joy (not necessarily happiness).  The result and goal are not the same thing.  The goal is to glorify God.  If the result is joy (which it is), then that is an awesome bonus.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18036
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
While I wouldn't phrase it quite like Zook, he does bring up points which I also struggle with, namely: why should I love or worship God, beyond mere self-interest (i.e the hope of being rewarded, the desire to have death not be the end, etc. Pascal's Wager, basically)? Why is God's will any more valid than mine? I don't find my being a creature and his being a creator any kind of answer. You would never impose the same demands on your children that you freely allow God to make of you. Indeed you'd likely be locked up if you did. Why should God's will, or his happiness, concern me beyond a fundamental desire to be rewarded somehow? 

Not trying to change your underlying belief, but you would get the "God:Man::Man:_____" question wrong if you put "child" in the blank.  (Dave, in the States we have a standardized test that gives, among other things, questions like those written above that are read "God is to Man, as Man is to _____").    God created MANKIND, not each specific "man", whereas man only creates each specific child.  We all all God's children in that sense, but you have no relationship at all with my specific kid. 

And those questions you ask are only for you to answer.  I think the fallacy is that there is some universal answer.  I personally don't care how you answer those questions, only that you accept the consequences of your answers.  One of us is objectively wrong, and I accept that.  I don't know that everyone else does. 

Quote
Somebody above, I think it was Jammin, suggested that we must do as God wills, not as we will. We must love as God wants us to love, not as we want to love. Ok, but whenever the question is raised as to why, every single time the reply, at root, is: because it will ultimately lead to your happiness. Which to me just seems once again to be a form of pure self-interest. You're not 'loving God' because it brings him joy, you're loving him because to do so will bring (you hope) YOU joy. Just as in sexual psychology, some people have a natural urge to love, and others prefer to be loved. You tried living a life of self-absorption, and it didn't bring you 'happiness', so now you're trying a life of submission of the self...but still only because you want to find joy. Same hoped-for destination, entirely different route, but the egoist impulse remains the same. On which basis (again, other than personal preference) can you claim that the God-route is more valid than the self-route, when the desired end is identical?

I can't and won't speak for Jammin, but I do say often that it's a big assumption to use human feelings and human logic to assess our place on God's canvas.  Not saying it isn't that way, but I don't "believe" out of pure self-interest, or out of a singular need to love or a singular need to be loved.  It is all those things and none of those things.   I am "happier" - not in the sense of pumping my fist in the air as when Kiss launches into Rock and Roll All Nite, but rather in a peaceful, contented way - with my belief.  Others have spoken of a failure to feel that. 

This is hard to explain, since I know it sounds like I am suspending all logic and reason when it comes to God, but that isn't the case.   I believe strongly in science, and I know, in a part of my brain, that my belief in god may be a physical thing, much like they are starting to see biological bases for political beliefs (how some people - on both sides of the aisle - are going to be shocked that their political belief structure is nature, and not some well-thought out uber-logical mental achievement!).  But like everything we (mankind) doesn't understand, you generate theories to explain the data as best you can.  And for me, my theory includes a God. 

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18036
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Well, we were NOT created to live 80 years and die.   That was NOT God' will, or intention.  Ever. 

We were all "sold into slavery" before we were even born.   We die because our original parents rebelled.   It's our genetic inheritance.  This is NOT what God wanted.  In fact, he wants to rescue us because he knows that it wasn't our fault.   

It was god's choice to make that rule. Can he not just redact it? If god can do whatever he wants, why the hell is he bound by his own laws? Does god have too much pride to change his mind? But then, pride is a sin. So is he too stubborn? If god didn't want that to happen, he could make it stop. I've been grounded until further notice, but god's punishment seems like until infinity, and overall just makes no sense. It's a plot hole.

No, it's your (mankind's) fallible logic being used to explain that which it cannot possibly explain, that which is infallible, and not least of which because it doesn't have enough information.   

Calvin6s

  • Guest
I'm now convinced we are all on God's reality show.  He's looking for a BFF, so he created some challenges for us to pick a winner.  Satan is last season's winner.  They can't deal with inevitably being replaced as BFF.  Some have made pacts (we call that a religion).

Offline Dave_Manchester

  • Posts: 1173
Stadler, I agree in concept with not ALWAYS (<--- my own addition) applying our own feelings and logic to, as you phrased it, "our place on God's canvas", but at the same time I find that approach problematic. What are the two means by which humanity perceives and interprets anything? 1) Through our feelings, and 2) through our logic/reason. If we are supposed to in some way perceive God, then how else are we to do it, if not through either the mind (reason) or the 'soul' (feelings)? It would be like bringing up your daughter to speak English only to then spend your life speaking Chinese to her.

If however we can say we shouldn't hold God to our own STANDARDS of what we expect from such concepts as love, justice, etc, then maybe I can agree, but still I find this a problem, because then of what use is any kind of dialogue about the nature of God? Throughout this thread, Christians are using 'positive' words like love and mercy and joy when describing God's nature and God's desires; such things are clearly concepts which humanity tends to list under the 'good' column, regardless of whether we practise what we preach. Indeed, over the years you and I have discussed these themes, you yourself have often listed things like...

1) People selflessly risking their lives on 9/11

2) A relationship being brought closer to harmony (I'll say no more, you know what I'm talking about, but I don't know how comfortable you are having personal things being broadcast on this site)

3) The health of your child
 
...as possible signs of the existence of a God. Are you not here applying your own standards of 'goodness' (selflessness, love, health...) to God? When people describe miracles, do they not do so when something which we generally consider 'good' has happened? I've yet to hear anybody say: "My dog was hit by a car last night and his body somersaulted all the way down the street and crippled a child. It was a miracle, praise Jesus!" However if that spinning dog had missed the kid by a hair's bredth, THAT is would believers may call a miracle. Harmonious and healthy life = good; disturbed and sick life = bad. Thus is it directly for us, so do we consider it to be for God also. 

So you see, on the one hand we're saying that we can't apply our conceptions of love and justice to God, and yet we are all doing that. It is thoroughly unavoidable. You yourself do it, whether consciously or subconsciously. And it cannot be otherwise, because the only means we have of forming any kind of clue about the world is through our reason and emotion...both of which were presumably given us by God, if he's there. To not use them would be like God giving us a mobile phone to contact him and then going to live in a place with no signal. 

 
 
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7461
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
You are conflating two different concepts and presenting them as if there is a dichotomy when there is not.  Recognizing attributes in God that he obviously has is very different from incorrectly ascribing limits on God using human constructs.  We are comparing apples and tire irons here.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Dave_Manchester

  • Posts: 1173
Leaving aside how you know God "obviously" has those qualities (it is not obvious to me, in fact if anything his creation seems to tend towards a kind of nihilism), I'm not "ascribing limits" to God. I'm responding to Stadler's idea that it is a mistake to apply our human understanding of concepts like love and justice to God's plan. I'm asking: ok, then haven't we just rendered all enquiry meaningless? Put another way, it is silly to say "Clearly God values faith and love, because the Bible says it, and plus, he saved so-and-so",and then when asked "Why did he allow that church roof to collapse on the faithful?" to respond "Stop trying to apply your ideas about God's values to human affairs". Why do you apply it in one place when it suits you, but not in the other where it becomes problematic?

Those final uses of 'you' are general, not directed specifically to anyone here.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 9501
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Leaving aside how you know God "obviously" has those qualities (it is not obvious to me, in fact if anything his creation seems to tend towards a kind of nihilism), I'm not "ascribing limits" to God. I'm responding to Stadler's idea that it is a mistake to apply our human understanding of concepts like love and justice to God's plan. I'm asking: ok, then haven't we just rendered all enquiry meaningless? Put another way, it is silly to say "Clearly God values faith and love, because the Bible says it, and plus, he saved so-and-so",and then when asked "Why did he allow that church roof to collapse on the faithful?" to respond "Stop trying to apply your ideas about God's values to human affairs". Why do you apply it in one place when it suits you, but not in the other where it becomes problematic?

Those final uses of 'you' are general, not directed specifically to anyone here.

But now you're essentially making the argument that we have the Bible to explain love, but then offers no explanation for things like the church collapsing.   That isn't true. 

Jesus himself cited an example in his time of a tower falling and killing several people and then asking the crowd the rhetorical question, "do you imagine that they were any worse sinners than anyone else?"  (I'm paraphrasing from memory...but that's the gist)   So here is the son of God himself reiterating the same thing from Ecc in the OT....that sometimes, stuff just happens.    And that harmonizes with the Bible teaching that the entire world is alienated from God at this time.   So again, The Bible has all the answers we need.
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Dave_Manchester

  • Posts: 1173
I need to take a short break from this thread to properly think through some of the points that have come up, but to your above comment Jammin, I really don't think the Bible saying "Shit just kinda happens sometimes" is giving us "all the answers to everything".
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 9501
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Well, if you read the rest of what I said, it also explains WHY stuff just happens. 
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Dave_Manchester

  • Posts: 1173
But it doesn't harmonise, not at all. It would harmonise if ONLY shit ever happened. It would harmonise only if shit happening were the constant state of affairs.

But that apparently isn't so, because you also say that God has influence in this world, even now. In a wider sense we may be 'alienated' from him, but he still has a hand in our lives and our world, to the point of even now being able to bring about miracles on occasion.

So where is the harmony here? You cannot have it both ways. Either shit always happens, or it never happens. But if it only SOMETIMES happens, then nothing is being answered and nothing is being explained. "We are alienated from God and that's why SOMETIMES shit happens" is a complerely self-annihilating statement to me. In fact we're simply looking at standard chaos theory here. 
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 9501
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
I don't recall saying he has influence over this world.    Not in those words anyway. 

But the Bible is fairly specific about that as well.   The Bible states that in the midst of all this rottenness, he would cause a worldwide message to be preached about his soloution for the problem.  So he is certainly causing that to come about.   There's nothing for me to just make up here.  But other than appealing to individuals by means of this preaching, and helping people live better lives by means of obedience to his principles, I certainly wouldn't make that claim.  In fact Jesus himself said that his Kingdom was "no part of this world".
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18036
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Leaving aside how you know God "obviously" has those qualities (it is not obvious to me, in fact if anything his creation seems to tend towards a kind of nihilism), I'm not "ascribing limits" to God. I'm responding to Stadler's idea that it is a mistake to apply our human understanding of concepts like love and justice to God's plan. I'm asking: ok, then haven't we just rendered all enquiry meaningless? Put another way, it is silly to say "Clearly God values faith and love, because the Bible says it, and plus, he saved so-and-so",and then when asked "Why did he allow that church roof to collapse on the faithful?" to respond "Stop trying to apply your ideas about God's values to human affairs". Why do you apply it in one place when it suits you, but not in the other where it becomes problematic?

Those final uses of 'you' are general, not directed specifically to anyone here.

Well, I understand your reply to Bosk, but he really did answer the question.   I think it is more about HOW we use the tools we have.   We only have our words and senses, so we have to use them, and certainly I do to, to describe that which we feel, that which makes us feel better or worse.    But many of the entries in this thread (sorry, being honest here) seem to give absolutely no acknowledgement to the limitations of those tools.  I'm not by any stretch perfect, but hopefully you see in my writings here an avoidance of absolutes.   I don't KNOW god exists, I BELIEVE he exists.  Those are very different statements.   You mentioned three things we've talked about (and I remember all three, and I deeply appreciate your discretion) and I fully acknowledge that I don't have the words to express WHY those three things are different from all the other occasions that those things happened to me, but I feel they are.   

Where I think Bosk gets it most right is in the limits.   I think it's okay to say as a general proposition, "God is love".  I think it is faulty to use that as an element in the logical proof of god's existence (the limits, if you will, of his being).  That any one person doesn't "feel" love is in no way indicative of anything; we already know that men are not created identically.   Who's to say that the person that feels no love does so because there is no love in their life, or because they are incapable of feeling love, or they do and just don't know it?   All three of those have very different ramifications in the context of a logical proof of God's existence. 

And we haven't even talked yet about the general nature of human existence (to seek comfort, to seek calm, to find patterns when none exist, to explain things) and how these might cloud our judgment.   I find it incredibly interesting that some people can claim that, in the space of 20 minutes, that they can know (or not) of God's existence when a good portion of the 100 billion or so people that have walked the planet (many with way sharper intellects than any three of us here) have dedicated their entire life's work to that question and we're no closer to a definitive answer.  It's hubris of untold proportions. 

Put simply, we have to use the tools we have.   Describe all you want using those tools.   But like the person taking measurements using a 12-inch ruler who can't possibly contemplate a light-year with that instrument, I'm just suggesting that perhaps' we need to remember that the answer may lie outside our toolbox, outside our ken.

Offline Zook

  • Evil Incarnate
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13384
  • Gender: Male
  • Take My Hand
Let me see if I got this straight:

god creates dinosawhrs
god destroys dinosawhrs
god creates man
man breaks god's rules
god punishes man with convoluted punishment
god sends his son down to earth to die in order to break convoluted punishment
In return, man must worship Jesus and accept him as lord or man doesn't get saved from convoluted punishment that god can easily just stop.

Adam and Eve were tricked by a talking snake to eat from the forbidden tree. Why was the tree forbidden? It's like god showed them a cookie jar, and told them they can't have any cookies. How mean! Everyone likes cookies. So when daddy got home from work, he noticed a cookie missing, and grounded the brats. No TV for a week wasn't enough. Death, disease, mosquitoes, and hang nails for all eternity. UNLESS! "I will restore man's perfect world by sacrificing my perfect son, having him die for all mankind's sins." So Jesus takes all these sins away by sacrificing his life in the most grueling death ever. That was nice of him. Oh, the catch. Well, the catch is man has to accept Jesus as his lord and when he dies, he will return to that perfect world. In the meantime, be miserable at the box factory with your crippled legs, and neglectful father, and that mangy mutt that keeps shitting on your pillow. You better not kill yourself either, for then you'll go to hell. Not even if you just want to see god. That's even worse. Life's only purpose is to serve god. The same god that banished our parents for stealing a cookie, and now we have to deal with it. And sure the Jesus stuff is great, except where is he? He's been gone a while. Did he get lost? How fucked up does the world have to be before he's given the go ahead? All those signs have been seen for centuries. The holocaust wasn't bad enough? Was it because they were Jewish? What is taking so long? I have every right to ask and every right to know. If a rapture is going to happen, obviously you aren't taking me, but how 'bout a heads up, so I can make sure I'm at a stop light. I don't care if I'm left behind. Prove me wrong. I don't have an ego. I'd be pretty pissed actually, but If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I hate being wrong honestly, but PROVE ME WRONG. I guess sorry didn't cut either. "if it happens again!" We never had a chance. We weren't tricked by Satan, we were tricked by god. God is a control freak, and what better way to have ultimate control than to take away absolutely everything and make us bow to get it back... And then we don't even know when that'll be.


That was my overly dramatic and stupid post for the day. Thank you for reading.  :angel:


Offline Podaar

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 6932
  • Gender: Male
  • My wife is a cabriolet
What a fascinating and awesome thread to read. Kudos to all for such well thought out responses and respectful dialogue.

Dave_Manchester, if I may; I think ultimately these well reasoned responses are unsatisfying unless you already a) are a believer or b) really, really want to be a believer.

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7461
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
But it doesn't harmonise, not at all. It would harmonise if ONLY shit ever happened. It would harmonise only if shit happening were the constant state of affairs...

...

So where is the harmony here? You cannot have it both ways. Either shit always happens, or it never happens. ...

Sorry, but this makes no sense to me whatsoever.  You are setting up a false dichotomy.  Why is it only an "either/or" to you?
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline yeshaberto

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8975
  • Gender: Male
  • Somebody Get Me A Doctor! - VH
Let me see if I got this straight:

god creates dinosawhrs
god destroys dinosawhrs
god creates man
man breaks god's rules
god punishes man with convoluted punishment
god sends his son down to earth to die in order to break convoluted punishment
In return, man must worship Jesus and accept him as lord or man doesn't get saved from convoluted punishment that god can easily just stop.

Adam and Eve were tricked by a talking snake to eat from the forbidden tree. Why was the tree forbidden? It's like god showed them a cookie jar, and told them they can't have any cookies. How mean! Everyone likes cookies. So when daddy got home from work, he noticed a cookie missing, and grounded the brats. No TV for a week wasn't enough. Death, disease, mosquitoes, and hang nails for all eternity. UNLESS! "I will restore man's perfect world by sacrificing my perfect son, having him die for all mankind's sins." So Jesus takes all these sins away by sacrificing his life in the most grueling death ever. That was nice of him. Oh, the catch. Well, the catch is man has to accept Jesus as his lord and when he dies, he will return to that perfect world. In the meantime, be miserable at the box factory with your crippled legs, and neglectful father, and that mangy mutt that keeps shitting on your pillow. You better not kill yourself either, for then you'll go to hell. Not even if you just want to see god. That's even worse. Life's only purpose is to serve god. The same god that banished our parents for stealing a cookie, and now we have to deal with it. And sure the Jesus stuff is great, except where is he? He's been gone a while. Did he get lost? How fucked up does the world have to be before he's given the go ahead? All those signs have been seen for centuries. The holocaust wasn't bad enough? Was it because they were Jewish? What is taking so long? I have every right to ask and every right to know. If a rapture is going to happen, obviously you aren't taking me, but how 'bout a heads up, so I can make sure I'm at a stop light. I don't care if I'm left behind. Prove me wrong. I don't have an ego. I'd be pretty pissed actually, but If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I hate being wrong honestly, but PROVE ME WRONG. I guess sorry didn't cut either. "if it happens again!" We never had a chance. We weren't tricked by Satan, we were tricked by god. God is a control freak, and what better way to have ultimate control than to take away absolutely everything and make us bow to get it back... And then we don't even know when that'll be.


That was my overly dramatic and stupid post for the day. Thank you for reading.  :angel:

Sorry, I thought I had updated Zook's PR access, but apparently it did not take.

As a reminder, the PR thread is 10 x's more sensitive of an arena than any other (here and in life) and it is all the more imperative that we learn to use caution in how we respond to each other, especially in the name of treating each other (despite our different views) with respect.

As a result, when a member is not able to do that, they will eventually lose their privileges to post here.

Offline Podaar

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 6932
  • Gender: Male
  • My wife is a cabriolet
I just barely read Zook's post. Yeah, it's pretty snide (funny though) but I think it brings up a relevant point that Dave_Manchester is struggling with in this thread. Dave is essentially trying to figure out why Zook finds Zook's narrative to be a convincing representation of reality. Dave wants to know why Zook doesn't struggle with the arguments against the narrative like Dave does. Now substitute Zook's post with Christian theology.

Thus my earlier comment about you either already believe or you want to. That's about the only way this works.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18036
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
I just barely read Zook's post. Yeah, it's pretty snide (funny though) but I think it brings up a relevant point that Dave_Manchester is struggling with in this thread. Dave is essentially trying to figure out why Zook finds Zook's narrative to be a convincing representation of reality. Dave wants to know why Zook doesn't struggle with the arguments against the narrative like Dave does. Now substitute Zook's post with Christian theology.

Thus my earlier comment about you either already believe or you want to. That's about the only way this works.

I'm not sure why I have to keep repeating this:  BELIEF IN GOD IS NOT THE SAME THING AS ADHERENCE TO A RELIGION.   Zook keeps attacking the alleged conflict and illogical nature of one particular theology (adherence to a religion, and the weakest aspect of that religion, to boot), and then adds that to the absolutely ridiculous and self-centered beyond words idea that somehow the creator of the entire universe owes Zook an explanation on Zook's terms, and somehow comes up with the answer "there is no God".   

There is zero probative and evidenciary connection between any of those three things.   

One thing I do agree with Zook on is that I am ready to be wrong.  I will accept the proof that is offered.  Where we differ - starkly - is that I am humble enough to accept that I deserve no specific explanation, and that it is foolhardy to expect the master of the universe to address me, specifically, in terms that I, specifically, understand, and at my specific beckoning, and on my specific timetable.  I find that premise (that I would deserve those things) to be as ludicrous and as useless as tits on a refrigerator. 

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 21429
  • Gender: Male
Tits on a refrigerator would be awesome.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Back for the Attack
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 41136
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
I...cannot disagree.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Podaar

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 6932
  • Gender: Male
  • My wife is a cabriolet
Stadler,

I was trying (probably poorly) to addressing Dave's desire to be persuaded by other's research into their religion--specifically, Why do people believe it was necessary for the crucifixion?

I don't disagree with:
BELIEF IN GOD IS NOT THE SAME THING AS ADHERENCE TO A RELIGION.
But, I don't think that's what this thread is about.

There have been many carefully thought out responses to the OP. They've been presented with confidence and even authority in some cases. They are very thought provoking. Sincerely.

My thought is that they ultimately fail to persuade "doubters" because of the very nature of doubt. If you read through this thread and replace the nouns God with Zeus, Jesus with Heracles, Bible with Homer, Old Testament with Iliad, New Testament with Odyssey you will begin to see the hurdle that doubters have to get to the finish line. It seems to me that if one starts from a position that Yahweh is the creator of the universe or at least that's what you're looking to find answers to, the whole enterprise of searching becomes more reachable.

Mormon missionaries use a technique while proselytizing that I think illustrates what I mean. They'll tell you that they don't want you to believe them, they want you to pray about what they tell you and let God instil the knowledge directly into your heart. This isn't a very effective technique if don't want it to work.

Online eric42434224

  • Posts: 3541
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
For some people, a belief in God IS the same as their religion....the two are inseparable.  They don't have to be the same or even related, but for some they are.  I am sure JD is quite unable to separate his JW beliefs from his belief in God.

For others the belief in religion have zero to do with a belief in god
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 9501
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Oh....you sweet talker...   You say that like it's a bad thing..   :angel:   
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 21429
  • Gender: Male
I'm not saying this directly at anyone. This is from my persepctive/experience and I'm just kind of thinking out loud.

The majority of the religious people I know follow their faith pretty well. They bend some of the rules (sex before getting married, using the lord's name in vein, etc..), but for the most part they adhere to their sacred texts and go to church as much as they can. When someone says to me something along the lines of "I'm spritual but not religious", I tend to think that translates to "I don't believe any of the world's religions, but I really like the idea of dying not being the end, I'm declare myself spiritual". That mentality, to me, is a little bullshit. I can understand buying into a religion, but claiming to be spiritual based completely on hope just seems odd to me. It's a concept I never really understood. At least with a religion you have text and works of art documenting events across milenia, with spirituality, it's 100% wishful thinking.

I guess what I am saying is, if you don't believe in a religion, how do you believe in god?

Online eric42434224

  • Posts: 3541
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Oh....you sweet talker...   You say that like it's a bad thing..   :angel:   

Not good or bad, but hopefully accurate.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 9501
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
I'm not saying this directly at anyone. This is from my persepctive/experience and I'm just kind of thinking out loud.

The majority of the religious people I know follow their faith pretty well. They bend some of the rules (sex before getting married, using the lord's name in vein, etc..), but for the most part they adhere to their sacred texts and go to church as much as they can. When someone says to me something along the lines of "I'm spritual but not religious", I tend to think that translates to "I don't believe any of the world's religions, but I really like the idea of dying not being the end, I'm declare myself spiritual". That mentality, to me, is a little bullshit. I can understand buying into a religion, but claiming to be spiritual based completely on hope just seems odd to me. It's a concept I never really understood. At least with a religion you have text and works of art documenting events across milenia, with spirituality, it's 100% wishful thinking.

I guess what I am saying is, if you don't believe in a religion, how do you believe in god?

I agree.  It doesn't make much sense to me either.   Other than I suppose that there does seem to be an inherent need to be close to a higher power, but there's just so much that's abhorrent about organized religion, that people desire the former but want nothing to do with the latter....so it becomes a default position.  Albiet, IMO, a slightly lazy one.
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Ħ

  • Posts: 3247
  • Gender: Male
What about deists? They might believe in God for philosophical reasons but choose not to follow any particular religion.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18036
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
I'm not saying this directly at anyone. This is from my persepctive/experience and I'm just kind of thinking out loud.

The majority of the religious people I know follow their faith pretty well. They bend some of the rules (sex before getting married, using the lord's name in vein, etc..), but for the most part they adhere to their sacred texts and go to church as much as they can. When someone says to me something along the lines of "I'm spritual but not religious", I tend to think that translates to "I don't believe any of the world's religions, but I really like the idea of dying not being the end, I'm declare myself spiritual". That mentality, to me, is a little bullshit. I can understand buying into a religion, but claiming to be spiritual based completely on hope just seems odd to me. It's a concept I never really understood. At least with a religion you have text and works of art documenting events across milenia, with spirituality, it's 100% wishful thinking.

I guess what I am saying is, if you don't believe in a religion, how do you believe in god?

I agree.  It doesn't make much sense to me either.   Other than I suppose that there does seem to be an inherent need to be close to a higher power, but there's just so much that's abhorrent about organized religion, that people desire the former but want nothing to do with the latter....so it becomes a default position.  Albiet, IMO, a slightly lazy one.

Think back to my (crude) analogy of the male orgasm/ejaculation.    They aren't the same thing.  Doesn't mean they aren't related, or that they aren't "better together", or that they don't mutually occur more often than not

There is a theory that there is a grand creator - God, if you will - who, with the "Big Bang" set the universe in motion, for it to unfold in an organic and uncontrolled manner, much like the (hidden) protagonists in King's "Under The Dome" or Harold Finch in "Person of Interest".  In such a scenario, there is little need for religion beyond the practical human psychological benefit from rituals and (forced) social interaction.  Not what I believe personally, but certainly just as viable as any other premise.   

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 9501
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
There may seem, on the surface, to be a lot of chaos in the universe, but again I think that is a lazy POV.     Many scientists have compared the movements of all the galaxies to a brilliantly choreographed ballet.    Not everyone then makes the leap that it's by design, but to anyone who *does* believe in a God already, it would seem that there is far too much "attention to detail" in our universe, from a broad cosmic level, all the way down to the organization within a single cell.  I have a hard time believing that someone who does believe in God would then turn around and say that he just caused the Big Bang and then walked away. 
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline portnoy311

  • Posts: 1103
Re: Why was it necessary for Jesus to die, and to die in the manner he did?
« Reply #171 on: June 04, 2015, 02:37:42 PM »
There may seem, on the surface, to be a lot of chaos in the universe, but again I think that is a lazy POV.     Many scientists have compared the movements of all the galaxies to a brilliantly choreographed ballet.    Not everyone then makes the leap that it's by design, but to anyone who *does* believe in a God already, it would seem that there is far too much "attention to detail" in our universe, from a broad cosmic level, all the way down to the organization within a single cell.  I have a hard time believing that someone who does believe in God would then turn around and say that he just caused the Big Bang and then walked away.


I'd just like to bring to your attention that the first half of this post exemplifies confirmation bias, while the second half actually advocates for it.

Offline Architeuthis

  • Posts: 2168
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why was it necessary for Jesus to die, and to die in the manner he did?
« Reply #172 on: August 28, 2015, 03:11:12 PM »
 At Jammindude,
  I just composed a nice long post and went to preview post, I pressed the "back" button and lost everything...Arghh!
    I just wanted to say I appreciate all the great posts you made on this topic, I'm in total agreement and it is really encouraging for me to read! This is a very important topic to me at this point in my life as it offers TRUE hope..  I have been going through the most devastating time in my life, my beautiful wife Victoria passed away in early June of this year just one day before our 20th wedding anniversary. It was due to multiple health issues. The only thing that keeps me going is the marvelous hope of the future resurrection knowing that I can see her again, and right here on earth. When Jesus resurrected Lazarus, that was a forgleam of what is going to happen on a large scale in the near future when God's Kingdom assumes full power over the earth.  Without this hope, and the loving support of the friends and family, I would be completely lost right now..  So YES, this topic is important and I appreciate and respect the posts from everyone else here too.
 On a side note,  I live near Seattle in the town of Sequim out west. I'm one of the few hardcore Dream theater fans out here. I also noticed that we both have quotes from Rush songs in our signatures, one of my favorite bands of all time!!!
  I read in one of you posts Jammindude, that you have been going through some difficult times as well. My thoughts and prayers are with you brother, keep the hope alive..  Wouldn't that be cool to be there to see the year 2112, and guitars WILL be aloud..  ;-)
You can do a lot in a lifetime if you don't burn out too fast, you can make the most of the distance, first you need endurance first you've got to last....... NP

Calvin6s

  • Guest
Re: Why was it necessary for Jesus to die, and to die in the manner he did?
« Reply #173 on: August 28, 2015, 05:28:29 PM »
So sorry to hear about your wife's very recent passing.  Happy to hear your inner circle is getting you through the worst of it.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 9501
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: Why was it necessary for Jesus to die, and to die in the manner he did?
« Reply #174 on: August 28, 2015, 05:35:24 PM »
At Jammindude,
  I just composed a nice long post and went to preview post, I pressed the "back" button and lost everything...Arghh!
    I just wanted to say I appreciate all the great posts you made on this topic, I'm in total agreement and it is really encouraging for me to read! This is a very important topic to me at this point in my life as it offers TRUE hope..  I have been going through the most devastating time in my life, my beautiful wife Victoria passed away in early June of this year just one day before our 20th wedding anniversary. It was due to multiple health issues. The only thing that keeps me going is the marvelous hope of the future resurrection knowing that I can see her again, and right here on earth. When Jesus resurrected Lazarus, that was a forgleam of what is going to happen on a large scale in the near future when God's Kingdom assumes full power over the earth.  Without this hope, and the loving support of the friends and family, I would be completely lost right now..  So YES, this topic is important and I appreciate and respect the posts from everyone else here too.
 On a side note,  I live near Seattle in the town of Sequim out west. I'm one of the few hardcore Dream theater fans out here. I also noticed that we both have quotes from Rush songs in our signatures, one of my favorite bands of all time!!!
  I read in one of you posts Jammindude, that you have been going through some difficult times as well. My thoughts and prayers are with you brother, keep the hope alive..  Wouldn't that be cool to be there to see the year 2112, and guitars WILL be aloud..  ;-)

Wow....thank you for the kind words, and I am so devastated by your loss.   It will be wonderful when we get to welcome her back to life again, and we won't have to worry about any of this garbage all around us any more.  Check your PM's....   
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude