The Benefits of Home Ownership?

[lordxizor]

I have never received a financial benefit of any kind from renting anything.   

The financial benefit to the renter is the costs you may have incurred had you owned, which you can't really quantify. Maybe you missed out on having to pay $10k+ for home repairs by renting instead of buying. Or maybe the city would have assessed you your share of the cost of redoing your road had you bought. Maybe you would have paid $5k to upgrade a few fully functional things for cosmetic reasons. In all of those cases, renting, though the rent payment may be higher than the equivalent mortgage payment, could save you money. If you buy a house and stay there for 10+ years, those expenses average out to likely being less than what it would have cost to rent. If you're moving around every few years, if you're unlucky and have those major type of expenses, plus the cost of moving can easily become more expensive than renting.

[Stadler]

Unless rent + investing > mortgage in your area, I see no situation where $1 towards home ownership is less valuable than $1 in rent.

Rent + investing is probably the "cheaper" option for most areas in this country.

Wow.  I'm surprised at this.  Not challenging the statement, just surprised.  I'm not sure how that can be the case for anyone renting a standalone dwelling (ie, "rent" is simply someone else's mortgage + uplift)

I guess in my own personal experience, my house was an excellent investment (all expenses considered), AND it paid for my (family's) shelter over the last 22 years.  If I'd dumped my cost of shelter into rent - being the only income earner to absorb that rent - I see no possibility how I would have been able to invest enough of a surplus to earn the current equity I have in my home (not to mention the quality of dwelling I would have been able to afford).  Again, for single folks who can spread the cost of rent across room-mates, there's likely some merit in Skeever's point.

But at the risk of incurring Skeever's wrath again, that's not apples to apples.   You can get roommates to spread across a mortgage too.

I'm not quite following you.  What's not apples-to-apples?  On your latter point, are you suggesting 3 dudes purchase a house together, and 3-way co-sign a 25-year mortgage?  Does that actually happen?  I'm not sure if I'm being facetious or not!

No, not necessarily, but it's not out of the question.  But that's not where I was going with the comment.   I was referring to the idea that all these analyses are seemingly looking at one line on a balance sheet and gaming one variable to make it seem like a rent is more cost effective, while ignoring all the other lines and variables.   I'm sorry I might be coming across as a dick here, but in the COVID thread there are pages and pages of discussions about "facts" and to me this is a similar case.   This isn't opinion, this is straight math, and math that has been done by countless people over 100 years of private home ownership.   Whether it's one person or three or five or ten, rent is money thrown away.  There is NO return on that money, and in fact, depending how you calculate it, it's a negative return.   All you're doing is cutting losses by splitting rents.   If you buy, all the things that we've said are benefits that now apply.   Even if you look at the repair costs, it's not all one line of "cash outlay".  Every repair impacts the value of a home; having a roof that is five years old is more valuable, in terms of resale, than one that is 20 years old.   If you hook up water and gas to the city, that is a benefit to your property value as compared to septic and a propane tank.  So your cash outlay is NOT dollar for dollar an expense.   In some states, there are tax benefits to those improvements.   If we're back to the one line item - the cash outlay each month for rent/mortgage payment - even on the "own" side, there are ways of cutting that.  Get roommates.   I haven't in a while, but we've had roommates in our house before who are not on the mortgage but help cut expenses.   In my case, that money went to the mortgage.   My stepdaughter may move in with my stepson, and pay rent, thus cutting his mortgage.    The monthly cash outlay per person or in total doesn't change ALL the other math.  It's just a matter of degree.

And I still maintain, having been a landlord, that your rent covers many if not all of the types of improvements we're discussing.  And that's a WORSE deal, since you're paying the landlord for a new roof that you may never actually see a benefit of.   That you will NEVER get the appreciation on.   It is flat wrong to assume you're paying for a new boiler as an owner and not paying for it as a renter.   It's just a different time scale; as a renter you're paying proactively in installments as opposed to the reactive lump sum as an owner.

[jingle.boy]

Ok, I feel ya now.  And I'm with you 100% on all of that.  I mean, NO landlord is looking to simply break-even.  Rent is ultimately ALL the costs of maintaining a dwelling, PLUS margin/profit for the landlord.  And no equity in the end.  I think there is merit in some of what others have said regarding the bottom-line finances of rent vs own, but for my personal situation, it's a no-brainer.

[kirksnosehair]

I have never received a financial benefit of any kind from renting anything.   

The financial benefit to the renter is the costs you may have incurred had you owned, which you can't really quantify. Maybe you missed out on having to pay $10k+ for home repairs by renting instead of buying. Or maybe the city would have assessed you your share of the cost of redoing your road had you bought. Maybe you would have paid $5k to upgrade a few fully functional things for cosmetic reasons. In all of those cases, renting, though the rent payment may be higher than the equivalent mortgage payment, could save you money. If you buy a house and stay there for 10+ years, those expenses average out to likely being less than what it would have cost to rent. If you're moving around every few years, if you're unlucky and have those major type of expenses, plus the cost of moving can easily become more expensive than renting.

That's a lot of "maybes"


Here's what I know based on my own personal experience with renting versus owning.  We rented a 2-bedroom apartment for many years.  When we first moved in the rent was $900/month or $10,800/year.  We lived in that apartment for about 5 years and the rent when up by $100 a month each year.  So rent went like this:


Year 1: $900/month = $10,800/year
Year 2: $1,000/month = $12,000/year
Year 3: $1,100/month = $13,200/year
Year 4: $1,200/month = $14,400/year
Year 5: $1,300/month = $15,600/year
----------------------------------------------------------------
Total:-------------------= $66,200 rent paid over 5 years


My return on that $66,200 paid in rent = $0.00 - I paid the rent.  I traded dollars for the ability to occupy a space in someone else's building for a predetermined period of time.  Those rent payments entitled me to nothing other than the ability to legally occupy that space for the agreed to period of time.  Once that period of time ended, I had to remove myself and my property from that space.


Compare that to the finances of owning our first home:


Mortgage payment: $1,098/month but we paid $1,500/month to pay down extra on the principle of the loan.  When we had been there for 5 years we refinanced the mortgage for a lower interest rate, but our payments were $1,500/month for 5 years:


Year 1: $1,500/month = $18,000/year
Year 2: $1,500/month = $18,000/year
Year 3: $1,500/month = $18,000/year
Year 4: $1,500/month = $18,000/year
Year 5: $1,500/month = $18,000/year
--------------------------------------------
Total:--------------------- $90,000 mortgage payments over 5 years


Remember, I said our actual mortgage payment was $1,098/month but we paid $1,500 so every month we paid $402 on the principle or $4,824/year so over the first 5 years of the mortgage we paid $24,120 of extra principle, which increased our equity in the property by...$24,120


Between our $30,000 down payment when we bought the home, the $24,120 in extra principle we paid on the loan and the march of time, after living in the home for 5 years its appraised value went from $172,900 (original purchase price) to $197,900 (appraised value at the time we refinanced) which is a $25,000 appreciation in our investment.  So, that left us with about $49,120 in equity.


In 5 years until we refinanced we did about $15,000 in maintenance and repairs, mostly spent on a new roof, new furnace and paving the driveway. 


  $49,120 - equity
- $15,000 - maintenance
------------------
  $34,120


So to review, after 5 years of renting an apartment, when we moved out we got our security deposit back: $900


After 5 years of living in our first home, paying the mortgage and paying for regular maintenance and repairs and such: $34,120 in equity.  Cash value.


And 5 years later that $34k in equity had ballooned up to $77k while the remaining balance on the mortgage was under $100k.  We paid off that mortgage and used that $77k in equity for the down payment on the home we're in now - our "forever home" and we've now been there for almost 8 years and that $77k in equity we got by making that initial down payment has grown to over $200k in equity today.


If you want to rent, by all means, rent.  It's a free country but there is no denying that in most cases owning a home is far more financially beneficial than renting.   You can pay someone else's mortgage or you can pay your own.  We choose to pay our own.


Here's a fun fact:
The exact same 2-bedroom/1-bathroom apartment I am referring to above now costs $2,300/month to rent.  That's almost $400/month more than my current mortgage payment.

[Skeever]

Literally no one in this thread has said that renting is always cheaper or better than owning. What people, myself included, have said is that sometimes renting is the better financial option, and that sometimes the money you put into your home (whether deciding to purchase to begin with, or deciding to pay down a mortgage faster instead of using them money for something else - which was the catalyst for my involvement in the current conversation) could be better spent elsewhere. As I have said myself in this thread, for me it depended on 1.) the amount of space I wanted, 2.) the cost of renting vs buying and 3.) the amount of time that I thought I wanted to spend in my location. Everyone in this thread who has written about how owning was better for them seems to have met similar criteria that I had laid out for myself. That said, even though I decided to buy, I do not agree that trying to pay down my mortgage faster is as good a use of my money as just putting more into a retirement or investment account. Hence why I've come to the conclusion for myself that "a dollar put in my home could probably be better spent elsewhere".

Another thing assumed is that people want something more than a 1 or 2 Br apartment. Maybe I'm quite happy not living in a standalone dwelling, and instead living in a building in the city, where the jobs are better, and maybe I don't need a car, and I can spend all the money I'd be spending on a house on other investments. By the way, how does the electric bill in my 1br compare to the guy trying to keep a 5br house cool in a warming world, by the way? Did we talk about that? I often hear coworkers talk about electric bills north of of $500 in the summer.

 It comes down to the person's individual wants, needs, and aspirations.

[kirksnosehair]

Literally no one in this thread has said that renting is always cheaper or better than owning.

I guess it's a good thing the word "always" doesn't even appear anywhere in my post, then 

[kirksnosehair]

By the way, how does the electric bill in my 1br compare to the guy trying to keep a 5br house cool in a warming world, by the way? Did we talk about that? I often hear coworkers talk about electric bills north of of $500 in the summer.

I have solar panels on my roof and I actually have a positive cash flow on my electricity because I generate more than I use 


I haven't met anyone who rents and has solar panels but I suppose you could hang something out the window. 






Edit: Forgot to add: My out of pocket cost for the solar panels was $0.00 and there is no lien on my property.  I am leasing the panels, and the electricity I am generating and selling back to National Grid pays the lease payment on top of the positive monthly cash flow. 


I already contribute the maximum amount allowed to my 401k so for me I could not imagine ever paying someone else's mortgage again.  I'd rather pay my own instead.

[lordxizor]

I'm glad your situation worked out in your advantage kirk. For most people over a 5 year span buying is better than renting. Within 3 years of moving into our home, we have to replace all of the siding and roof which was mostly covered by insurance but ended up costing us about $7k out of pocket and we paid about $10k for a new furnace and AC. That doesn't include a bunch of other minor cosmetic improvements we did. Over that 3 year period, I'm guessing that we would have been better off renting if you factor in the closing costs on buying the home in the first place. But in the 3 years since, the scales have tipped the other other way and buying has been better, but that's mainly due to historically high value increases in homes, and historically low interest rates.

I think owning a home is a bit like investing in the stock market. In the short term, you'll usually come out ahead, but there is a good chance you can lose money. In the long term you'll almost always come out ahead unless you invest in a very poor stock or property.

[kirksnosehair]

I'm glad your situation worked out in your advantage kirk. For most people over a 5 year span buying is better than renting. Within 3 years of moving into our home, we have to replace all of the siding and roof which was mostly covered by insurance but ended up costing us about $7k out of pocket and we paid about $10k for a new furnace and AC. That doesn't include a bunch of other minor cosmetic improvements we did. Over that 3 year period, I'm guessing that we would have been better off renting if you factor in the closing costs on buying the home in the first place. But in the 3 years since, the scales have tipped the other other way and buying has been better, but that's mainly due to historically high value increases in homes, and historically low interest rates.

I think owning a home is a bit like investing in the stock market. In the short term, you'll usually come out ahead, but there is a good chance you can lose money. In the long term you'll almost always come out ahead unless you invest in a very poor stock or property.

Uh, OK, but I literally don't know and have never met a homeowner who "lost money" on a house they stayed in more than 5 years but I admit that I only know maybe 50 people who own homes so that may not be a statistically significant enough number of people. 

[gmillerdrake]

Just emailed the County Assessor as the bi annual real estate assessments of our home arrived. Based off this assessment my yearly taxes are going to jump from $4,674.90 to $5,220.30. Homey don't play that. I utilized my right to challenge the assessment and basically structured the argument as one against the frail, manipulated real estate dreamscape going on right now with property values....saying, we all know it's gonna crash and when it does I'd then be stuck paying an inflated tax based off of the make believe market they assessed my home against. Will it work? I'll let you know. The second year we were here in our new home I did something similar and was able to get them to hold off on raising my assessed value.....maybe I'll get lucky again.

[Skeever]

Literally no one in this thread has said that renting is always cheaper or better than owning.

I guess it's a good thing the word "always" doesn't even appear anywhere in my post, then 

No worries. I guess I misunderstood your intent by sharing all that.

[kirksnosehair]

I can certainly understand that different people have different circumstances.


I don't know squat about stocks and I'm too old to be taking risks at 57 so for me real estate is the way to go, just based on my own personal history with it.


If you look at the markets, they basically follow each other.  The real estate market is a bit steadier, but it climbs and falls pretty evenly with the Dow


By the way, the reason I shared all that is because the thread is titled "The Benefits of Home Ownership" so I was just trying to explain why I think it's been beneficial to me.

[kirksnosehair]

Just emailed the County Assessor as the bi annual real estate assessments of our home arrived. Based off this assessment my yearly taxes are going to jump from $4,674.90 to $5,220.30. Homey don't play that. I utilized my right to challenge the assessment and basically structured the argument as one against the frail, manipulated real estate dreamscape going on right now with property values....saying, we all know it's gonna crash and when it does I'd then be stuck paying an inflated tax based off of the make believe market they assessed my home against. Will it work? I'll let you know. The second year we were here in our new home I did something similar and was able to get them to hold off on raising my assessed value.....maybe I'll get lucky again.

Jeez, what a racket!  That's one of the downsides to owning: Real Estate taxes.  I wish my tax bill was that low.  We're up around $10k/year in property tax 

[TAC]

I have never looked at any financial ramifications of my home. Sure we bought something we could afford. We've put two additions on, but before each, we gauged the market, and even had a buyer once, but we could never really buy our way back into town.

So for me, the real benefit of home ownership was giving my kids a nice place to grow up.

Jeez, what a racket!  That's one of the downsides to owning: Real Estate taxes.  I wish my tax bill was that low.  We're up around $10k/year in property tax 

Wow!

We were at $5746 last year. That's actually $60 less than the previous year.

[gmillerdrake]

Just emailed the County Assessor as the bi annual real estate assessments of our home arrived. Based off this assessment my yearly taxes are going to jump from $4,674.90 to $5,220.30. Homey don't play that. I utilized my right to challenge the assessment and basically structured the argument as one against the frail, manipulated real estate dreamscape going on right now with property values....saying, we all know it's gonna crash and when it does I'd then be stuck paying an inflated tax based off of the make believe market they assessed my home against. Will it work? I'll let you know. The second year we were here in our new home I did something similar and was able to get them to hold off on raising my assessed value.....maybe I'll get lucky again.

Jeez, what a racket!  That's one of the downsides to owning: Real Estate taxes.  I wish my tax bill was that low.  We're up around $10k/year in property tax 

That's insane Barry....I can't imagine that! There are areas in and around St. Louis where they'd be staring at that type of real estate tax or more. Where I'm at, in the county I'm in, very rural.....this is a pretty high assessment.

[cramx3]

Lucky, my property taxes are approaching $7k a year and I bet my house and property are smaller than all of yours! That's living in NJ.

[LudwigVan]

My property taxes approach 18k.     Nassau county NY

[TAC]

WOW!!

[LudwigVan]

And that’s one of the reasons I’m retiring out of state.

[Skeever]

That reminds me what I realized when I started this thread. I should have preferenced anything I said about homeowning maybe not being as worth it with the fact that I live in New Jersey 

[Cool Chris]

My property taxes approach 18k.     Nassau county NY

Holy crap!

[Snow Dog]

Holy Christ you guys! People here are always bitching about how high property tax is in Oregon, and I usually agree when I’m paying $3.6k for a .2 acre lot and house. Come to find out that’s nothing compared to other parts of the country. Hot damn!

[Cool Chris]

So for me, the real benefit of home ownership was giving my kids a nice place to grow up.

A friend of mine and I were having a conversation about this the other day. He found himself in a situation where they had to sell their house and rent an apartment, and he felt like he wasn't providing his family with a good home. I told him a home is more than just four walls and a ceiling. Not everyone can afford a home (especially around here!) but aside from the financial ramifications, providing your kids with a nice, safe, comfortable place to call hoome should be every parent's job #1.

[TAC]

So for me, the real benefit of home ownership was giving my kids a nice place to grow up.

A friend of mine and I were having a conversation about this the other day. He found himself in a situation where they had to sell their house and rent an apartment, and he felt like he wasn't providing his family with a good home. I told him a home is more than just four walls and a ceiling. Not everyone can afford a home (especially around here!) but aside from the financial ramifications, providing your kids with a nice, safe, comfortable place to call hoome should be every parent's job #1.

So I didn't mean that to say that if we had an apartment, we wouldn't be able to provide a home. I understand not everyone can afford a home. And I have no disrespect to anyone in that situation.

My point was that I never viewed my house as having anything to do with being a financial asset.

[Cool Chris]

Right and sorry, that was what I was getting at in the conversation with my friend I referenced. He felt his apartment was somehow less of a home because he didn't own it, and I didn't know if that was fair because it was (in my estimation) a nice place for him and his family, even if it wasn't where he was hoping to be, either structurally or financially at that point in his life.

[Chino]

Holy Christ you guys! People here are always bitching about how high property tax is in Oregon, and I usually agree when I’m paying $3.6k for a .2 acre lot and house. Come to find out that’s nothing compared to other parts of the country. Hot damn!

Last year I paid $5,800 in property taxes on my 1700sqft house. I live on a .18 acre lot and have street parking. I live in arguably one of the least desirable cities in my state, and the mill rate is something like 57%

[Stadler]

I have never received a financial benefit of any kind from renting anything.   

The financial benefit to the renter is the costs you may have incurred had you owned, which you can't really quantify. Maybe you missed out on having to pay $10k+ for home repairs by renting instead of buying. Or maybe the city would have assessed you your share of the cost of redoing your road had you bought. Maybe you would have paid $5k to upgrade a few fully functional things for cosmetic reasons. In all of those cases, renting, though the rent payment may be higher than the equivalent mortgage payment, could save you money. If you buy a house and stay there for 10+ years, those expenses average out to likely being less than what it would have cost to rent. If you're moving around every few years, if you're unlucky and have those major type of expenses, plus the cost of moving can easily become more expensive than renting.

That's a lot of "maybes"


Here's what I know based on my own personal experience with renting versus owning.  We rented a 2-bedroom apartment for many years.  When we first moved in the rent was $900/month or $10,800/year.  We lived in that apartment for about 5 years and the rent when up by $100 a month each year.  So rent went like this:


Year 1: $900/month = $10,800/year
Year 2: $1,000/month = $12,000/year
Year 3: $1,100/month = $13,200/year
Year 4: $1,200/month = $14,400/year
Year 5: $1,300/month = $15,600/year
----------------------------------------------------------------
Total:-------------------= $66,200 rent paid over 5 years


My return on that $66,200 paid in rent = $0.00 - I paid the rent.  I traded dollars for the ability to occupy a space in someone else's building for a predetermined period of time.  Those rent payments entitled me to nothing other than the ability to legally occupy that space for the agreed to period of time.  Once that period of time ended, I had to remove myself and my property from that space.


Compare that to the finances of owning our first home:


Mortgage payment: $1,098/month but we paid $1,500/month to pay down extra on the principle of the loan.  When we had been there for 5 years we refinanced the mortgage for a lower interest rate, but our payments were $1,500/month for 5 years:


Year 1: $1,500/month = $18,000/year
Year 2: $1,500/month = $18,000/year
Year 3: $1,500/month = $18,000/year
Year 4: $1,500/month = $18,000/year
Year 5: $1,500/month = $18,000/year
--------------------------------------------
Total:--------------------- $90,000 mortgage payments over 5 years


Remember, I said our actual mortgage payment was $1,098/month but we paid $1,500 so every month we paid $402 on the principle or $4,824/year so over the first 5 years of the mortgage we paid $24,120 of extra principle, which increased our equity in the property by...$24,120


Between our $30,000 down payment when we bought the home, the $24,120 in extra principle we paid on the loan and the march of time, after living in the home for 5 years its appraised value went from $172,900 (original purchase price) to $197,900 (appraised value at the time we refinanced) which is a $25,000 appreciation in our investment.  So, that left us with about $49,120 in equity.


In 5 years until we refinanced we did about $15,000 in maintenance and repairs, mostly spent on a new roof, new furnace and paving the driveway. 


  $49,120 - equity
- $15,000 - maintenance
------------------
  $34,120


So to review, after 5 years of renting an apartment, when we moved out we got our security deposit back: $900


After 5 years of living in our first home, paying the mortgage and paying for regular maintenance and repairs and such: $34,120 in equity.  Cash value.


And 5 years later that $34k in equity had ballooned up to $77k while the remaining balance on the mortgage was under $100k.  We paid off that mortgage and used that $77k in equity for the down payment on the home we're in now - our "forever home" and we've now been there for almost 8 years and that $77k in equity we got by making that initial down payment has grown to over $200k in equity today.


If you want to rent, by all means, rent.  It's a free country but there is no denying that in most cases owning a home is far more financially beneficial than renting.   You can pay someone else's mortgage or you can pay your own.  We choose to pay our own.


Here's a fun fact:
The exact same 2-bedroom/1-bathroom apartment I am referring to above now costs $2,300/month to rent.  That's almost $400/month more than my current mortgage payment.

AND, you left off benefits:  if you itemized your taxes, you had savings there.  If you leveraged your home in ANY way - including having your credit score go up allowing you access to lower-interest-rate loans for other things like cars - you had savings there.   Your math is 100% correct and shows, clearly, the benefits, and it's STILL selling it short. 

[Stadler]

By the way, how does the electric bill in my 1br compare to the guy trying to keep a 5br house cool in a warming world, by the way? Did we talk about that? I often hear coworkers talk about electric bills north of of $500 in the summer.

I have solar panels on my roof and I actually have a positive cash flow on my electricity because I generate more than I use 


I haven't met anyone who rents and has solar panels but I suppose you could hang something out the window. 






Edit: Forgot to add: My out of pocket cost for the solar panels was $0.00 and there is no lien on my property.  I am leasing the panels, and the electricity I am generating and selling back to National Grid pays the lease payment on top of the positive monthly cash flow. 


I already contribute the maximum amount allowed to my 401k so for me I could not imagine ever paying someone else's mortgage again.  I'd rather pay my own instead.

I'm moving two towns over at the end of June, and that is the second call I'm going to make (first is a generator, since that part of the state loses power at a ridiculously high frequency).   I've been looking at that for a while, but haven't pulled the trigger because of that potential move.

Absent improvements like that, though, utility rates aren't really a measure of the difference between renting and owning; you use the power/water/gas you use, depending on the space.  Whether you're renting or not doesn't change the usage. 

[jingle.boy]

Generator... had to replace the one that was original to this house last year (and that wadn't cheap!).  None-the-less, while it has only kicked in a handful of times, knowing it's there and will kick on in 10 seconds is very comforting - especially since we're on septic, and have TWO sump pumps because of the ecology around here.  Those sump pumps kick in almost hourly at all times of the year.  I sure as hell wouldn't want to be without power for any extended period of time.

[Stadler]

Generator... had to replace the one that was original to this house last year (and that wadn't cheap!).  None-the-less, while it has only kicked in a handful of times, knowing it's there and will kick on in 10 seconds is very comforting - especially since we're on septic, and have TWO sump pumps because of the ecology around here.  Those sump pumps kick in almost hourly at all times of the year.  I sure as hell wouldn't want to be without power for any extended period of time.

That's us; well pump.   Plus, it seems like when power goes out, it stays out around here.   My stepson lives in the town we're moving to, and at least once each of the last two years, he's lost power for multiple days.  I have no problem with a day or even two, but once we get into three-day territory, with kids and work and all that, it becomes something different.  Plus my father-in-law lives by himself even further out in the boon-docks, and I want a safe place for him to go in case of emergency (he's lost his power three for over a week several times over the past few years).  The house is pre-wired for the generator, so it's only the unit I need, just a matter of sizing it correctly.

[jingle.boy]

Wow... I think I'd start worrying about things after 8-12 hours.  Especially in the winter (furnace is on the generator; AC is not).  Being able to use water and the toilet is also high on my list of priorities.

[Cool Chris]

Owning a snow blower, generator, or a sump pump (I am not even sure I know what that is) is out of my realm.of experience.

And did someone here (maybe Chino) say that having a shed was not allowed on his property? What the heck kind of zoning law is that?

[kirksnosehair]

The generator is a good idea, but also you should definitely look into solar.  The programs and incentives they have right now are incredible.  They literally paid us to install it.  They wrote me a $1,500 check when I signed up and called a "Signing incentive." I remember thinking "this has got to be some kind of scam" so I had our lawyer look it all over and he green-lighted it.  Said we'd be kicking ourselves later for not taking the plunge so we did it.  Definitely turned out to be a great deal.


We went from having a $400/month average bill on electricity to a positive cash flow of anywhere from $40/month winter and summer to $150/month in fall and spring when we're using neither the heat nor the AC.  We didn't have to come up with any cash to get the panels installed.  We started getting the positive cash flow after about 30 days of operation.  I've had those panels for 6 years now.  $4,800 year in savings times 6 years just shy of $29k in savings.

[kirksnosehair]

Owning a snow blower, generator, or a sump pump (I am not even sure I know what that is) is out of my realm.of experience.

And did someone here (maybe Chino) say that having a shed was not allowed on his property? What the heck kind of zoning law is that?

Most planned communities have a governing body of people who run the development.  They're the people who get the street lamps installed, maintain the sidewalks and grass, etc.  They're sometimes referred to as an "HOA" or "Home Owner's Association" and you have them with just about all of the newer planned communities.  My son lives in one.  You can only paint your house certain colors and use certain styles of siding, etc.  The idea is that no one in the neighborhood can turn their house into a Sanford & Son's style junkyard, driving property values in the neighborhood into the toilet.


It's a good concept, but you give up a lot of freedom.  We decided to stay out of HOA style neighborhoods so we can do basically whatever we want with the house and property.

[Stadler]

The generator is a good idea, but also you should definitely look into solar.  The programs and incentives they have right now are incredible.  They literally paid us to install it.  They wrote me a $1,500 check when I signed up and called a "Signing incentive." I remember thinking "this has got to be some kind of scam" so I had our lawyer look it all over and he green-lighted it.  Said we'd be kicking ourselves later for not taking the plunge so we did it.  Definitely turned out to be a great deal.


We went from having a $400/month average bill on electricity to a positive cash flow of anywhere from $40/month winter and summer to $150/month in fall and spring when we're using neither the heat nor the AC.  We didn't have to come up with any cash to get the panels installed.  We started getting the positive cash flow after about 30 days of operation.  I've had those panels for 6 years now.  $4,800 year in savings times 6 years just shy of $29k in savings.

That's fucking insane.  I'm going to do it, and I'm hoping for like half of that.