Last movie you saw?

[Cool Chris]

I have not seen Bonnie and Clyde, to the best of my recollection, and have not seen Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia either. I was looking up Oates and wasn't aware (or forgot) he was in The Wild Bunch.

Robert Webber was great in 12 Angry Men and The Dirty Dozen. Looked him up and saw he died of ALS in his 60s. Shame.

[El Barto]

I have not seen Bonnie and Clyde, to the best of my recollection, and have not seen Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia either. I was looking up Oates and wasn't aware (or forgot) he was in The Wild Bunch.

Robert Webber was great in 12 Angry Men and The Dirty Dozen. Looked him up and saw he died of ALS in his 60s. Shame.

Webber was always great. I've mentioned before, but one of my inspirational movies growing up was S.O.B., and he was great there, too. That was really about William Holden and Richard Mulligan, but it was really a fantastic all-star cast of actors of that era, all acting outside of their typical milieus.

[MirrorMask]

Speaking of classic movies, I checked out The Birds, by Hitchcock.

The first half was quite slow, and I couldn't even figure out what the protagonist is up to. She gets played by a dude that tricks her into pretending she works in a birds shop, and to retaliate she...... gets the birds his sister wanted and drives all the way up to their home to deliver them as a gift?

The special effects aged, but come on, I'm not gonna criticize about this a 1963 movie. Some scenes were indeed iconic, like one of the major attacks (the phone booth one), and the scenery in the little bay city was quite captivating. It deserves its fame, but the first part almost killed the enjoyment for me.

[Cool Chris]

I have not seen Bonnie and Clyde, to the best of my recollection, and have not seen Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia either. I was looking up Oates and wasn't aware (or forgot) he was in The Wild Bunch.

Robert Webber was great in 12 Angry Men and The Dirty Dozen. Looked him up and saw he died of ALS in his 60s. Shame.

Webber was always great. I've mentioned before, but one of my inspirational movies growing up was S.O.B., and he was great there, too. That was really about William Holden and Richard Mulligan, but it was really a fantastic all-star cast of actors of that era, all acting outside of their typical milieus.

I can't go 2 weeks without getting a solid movie recommendation from you. I wish I knew you when I was single and had time to watch them all.

We've talked Richard Mulligan before. Burt Campbell is one of my Top 3 all-time TV characters.

Speaking of classic movies, I checked out The Birds, by Hitchcock.

I have had a hard time connecting with some Hitchcock movies. Obviously I saw none of them in real time, so have to judge them on the merits of my current time frame. North By Northwest might be a Top 20 movie of mine. Psycho is amazing and something I'd attach the (overused) "Timeless" label to. But others like The Birds" I can't appreciate as much as history seems to think I should.

[El Barto]

Speaking of classic movies, I checked out The Birds, by Hitchcock.

The first half was quite slow, and I couldn't even figure out what the protagonist is up to. She gets played by a dude that tricks her into pretending she works in a birds shop, and to retaliate she...... gets the birds his sister wanted and drives all the way up to their home to deliver them as a gift?

The special effects aged, but come on, I'm not gonna criticize about this a 1963 movie. Some scenes were indeed iconic, like one of the major attacks (the phone booth one), and the scenery in the little bay city was quite captivating. It deserves its fame, but the first part almost killed the enjoyment for me.

I watched North by Northwest the other night and loved it. In part because protagonists with no idea why things are happening to them are one of my favorite things, and partly because it was really well made. I've always liked movies with everyman characters pushed just beyond their ability to cope by people who are smarter and better than they are, and Cary Grant's character certainly qualified.

[El Barto]

We've talked Richard Mulligan before. Burt Campbell is one of my Top 3 all-time TV characters.

Mulligan was a fantastic actor. He obviously had the comedy bit down, but in dramatic roles he was really something else. He did an episode of the Twilight Zone that was absolutely haunting, to the point of being hard to watch. Eddie Albert was another guy known for his comedy, but always did great with more serious material. He did a war movie called Attack! with Lee Marvin and Jack Palance, and fell apart spectacularly when having to own up to his own cowardice. Comedic actors tend to get pigeonholed, which is a real shame. 

[Cool Chris]

There is a scene in Soap when Burt thinks he can become invisible, where he confesses to Mary he is afraid he might lose her (I don't remember the exact context, it's probably confusing, it is Soap after all). It is heartbreaking and totally out of character for the show, and the normally goofy Burt.

We appreciated North By Northwest 6 seconds apart. I like your analysis. I like when a movie takes you on a journey, and Hitchcock, through Grant, takes us on an exciting journey. Grant was an actor who could essentially do any genre. He was too good-looking and suave to be an "everyman" but this movie shows he can even play that part well.

[Orbert]

Soap was an amazing show, and Richard Mulligan was a big part of that.  It was absurd, and meant to be, but the actors had real chops and could bring surprising depth and gravitas, just once in a while, to the most crazy situations.  Invisible Burt is a great example.  Another fave of mine was when he had an alien doppleganger or something (it's been a long time) who's going to replace him and basically steal his life, and the real Burt talks him out of it.  He appeals to Fake Burt's conscience, how he (Real Burt) has already done the hard part, built his life, raised some decent kids, and it's not fair that Fake Burt can just come in and get to reap the rewards, live out the golden years that Real Burt has worked hard to earn.

[El Barto]

Soap was the first show I watched regularly as a kid, and I'll still throw it on from time to time. I thought Burt's best moment was towards the end when he went to his childhood pastor seeking guidance while his life fell apart, only to have the elderly pastor die while he's explaining it.

Soap was an amazing show, and Richard Mulligan was a big part of that.  It was absurd, and meant to be, but the actors had real chops and could bring surprising depth and gravitas, just once in a while, to the most crazy situations.  Invisible Burt is a great example.  Another fave of mine was when he had an alien doppleganger or something (it's been a long time) who's going to replace him and basically steal his life, and the real Burt talks him out of it.  He appeals to Fake Burt's conscience, how he (Real Burt) has already done the hard part, built his life, raised some decent kids, and it's not fair that Fake Burt can just come in and get to reap the rewards, live out the golden years that Real Burt has worked hard to earn.

I watched that scene earlier when Chris brought it up. Here it is, along with the preceding scene of Burt confusing the hell out of Jodie. Billy Crystal and Mulligan really bring it home here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8laJD6yZS8w

[Cool Chris]

It was the first non-kids show I remember watching regularly as a kid. I knew it wasn't for kids, because of some of the subject matter, so I tried to keep my parents from finding out I watched it.

[pg1067]

I never watched Soap (and I don't think my mother did).  However, I recall going to church one week (I was raised Roman Catholic), and the priest, during his sermon, urged the congregation not to watch Soap (and I think to boycott ABC in general) because of some storyline on the show (I think it might have had something to do with possession and exorcism?).  I have to wonder how many folks who weren't watching the show started watching because of that.

[Cool Chris]

There was a main character who was (gasp) gay. Though I don't recall if his sexuality was ever a constant plot point.

[Orbert]

It came up once in a while.  The whole point (okay, maybe not the whole point, but certainly a big part of it) was that Yeah, Jodie is gay.  So what?  Here he is, and he's just a guy like anyone else.  There were a few episodes that addressed it head on, a few where it never came up at all, and most just had a quick reference or joke based on it.  I think Billy Crystal's Jodie was the first gay character on a mainstream television show.  I can see Roman Catholics having trouble with that.  I like to think that it helped a lot of people get over their homophobia.  I know it helped me.

Bart: Yep, that's the scene.  I kinda surprised myself with how well I'd remembered it, too.  What I didn't realize is how Fake Burt channeled Rodney Dangerfield a few times during the scene.  Mulligan did a great job, though.

[El Barto]

Not only was it a constant plot point it was a constant source of jokes. And of course he was also the most decent and reasonable one of the lot. Interestingly, he only had one boyfriend, but several girlfriends, one of whom he knocked up. Billy Crystal's first role, I believe. That was the biggest gripe about it. There was a fallen priest, which led to the demonic possession and subsequent exorcism. Billy was banging his history teacher. Corinne was banging everybody (including the priest). There was a whole lot of stuff for the church to be butthurt about, but most of the criticism (and there was a ton of it) stemmed from Billy Crystal's character. To be fair, though, it really did push a lot of buttons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_(TV_series)#Pre-broadcast_protests_and_controversy

The internal memo leaked before the series premier kind of sums it up nicely:

        "Please delete [the lines] '...the slut', 'that Polish slut,' 'get your clothes off,' 'it doesn't grow back,' 'transsexual,' 'Oh my God,' 'did it hurt?'"
        "Substitute [the words] 'fruit,' 'slut,' 'tinker bell.'"
        "The CIA or any other government organization is not to be involved in General Nu's smuggling operation." (This character and storyline, which dealt with a Vietnamese   opium smuggler who becomes involved in the Tate family through Jessica's long-lost son, was eventually removed from the show bible.)
        "In order to treat Jodie as a gay character, his portrayal must at all times be handled without 'limp-wristed' actions"
        "The colloquy between Peter and Jessica...which relates to cunnilingus/fellatio is obviously unacceptable"
        "The relationship between Jodie and the football player should be handled in such a manner that explicit or intimate aspects of homosexuality are avoided entirely."
        "Father Flotsky's stand on liberalizing the Mass will have to be treated in a balanced, inoffensive manner. By way of example, the substitution of Oreos for the traditional wafer is unacceptable."

[Cool Chris]

Learned a new word today: Colloquy.

[pg1067]

Not only was it a constant plot point it was a constant source of jokes. And of course he was also the most decent and reasonable one of the lot. Interestingly, he only had one boyfriend, but several girlfriends, one of whom he knocked up. Billy Crystal's first role, I believe. That was the biggest gripe about it. There was a fallen priest, which led to the demonic possession and subsequent exorcism. Billy was banging his history teacher. Corinne was banging everybody (including the priest). There was a whole lot of stuff for the church to be butthurt about, but most of the criticism (and there was a ton of it) stemmed from Billy Crystal's character. To be fair, though, it really did push a lot of buttons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_(TV_series)#Pre-broadcast_protests_and_controversy

The internal memo leaked before the series premier kind of sums it up nicely:

        "Please delete [the lines] '...the slut', 'that Polish slut,' 'get your clothes off,' 'it doesn't grow back,' 'transsexual,' 'Oh my God,' 'did it hurt?'"
        "Substitute [the words] 'fruit,' 'slut,' 'tinker bell.'"
        "The CIA or any other government organization is not to be involved in General Nu's smuggling operation." (This character and storyline, which dealt with a Vietnamese   opium smuggler who becomes involved in the Tate family through Jessica's long-lost son, was eventually removed from the show bible.)
        "In order to treat Jodie as a gay character, his portrayal must at all times be handled without 'limp-wristed' actions"
        "The colloquy between Peter and Jessica...which relates to cunnilingus/fellatio is obviously unacceptable"
        "The relationship between Jodie and the football player should be handled in such a manner that explicit or intimate aspects of homosexuality are avoided entirely."
        "Father Flotsky's stand on liberalizing the Mass will have to be treated in a balanced, inoffensive manner. By way of example, the substitution of Oreos for the traditional wafer is unacceptable."

I looked at the Wiki article after my prior post.  In a section you didn't quote, it talks about protests led by the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, which was where my church was at the time:  "The Roman Catholic Church, led by its Los Angeles Archdiocese, also condemned the show and asked all American families to boycott it saying 'ABC should be told that American Catholics and all Americans are not going to sit by and watch the networks have open season on Catholicism and morality. [Soap] is probably one of the most effective arguments for government censorship of TV that has yet come along.'"  It seems that all the churches got up in arms without ever seeing the show, based on a review written by a Newsweek writer who hadn't seen it either!

[El Barto]

Not only was it a constant plot point it was a constant source of jokes. And of course he was also the most decent and reasonable one of the lot. Interestingly, he only had one boyfriend, but several girlfriends, one of whom he knocked up. Billy Crystal's first role, I believe. That was the biggest gripe about it. There was a fallen priest, which led to the demonic possession and subsequent exorcism. Billy was banging his history teacher. Corinne was banging everybody (including the priest). There was a whole lot of stuff for the church to be butthurt about, but most of the criticism (and there was a ton of it) stemmed from Billy Crystal's character. To be fair, though, it really did push a lot of buttons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_(TV_series)#Pre-broadcast_protests_and_controversy

The internal memo leaked before the series premier kind of sums it up nicely:

        "Please delete [the lines] '...the slut', 'that Polish slut,' 'get your clothes off,' 'it doesn't grow back,' 'transsexual,' 'Oh my God,' 'did it hurt?'"
        "Substitute [the words] 'fruit,' 'slut,' 'tinker bell.'"
        "The CIA or any other government organization is not to be involved in General Nu's smuggling operation." (This character and storyline, which dealt with a Vietnamese   opium smuggler who becomes involved in the Tate family through Jessica's long-lost son, was eventually removed from the show bible.)
        "In order to treat Jodie as a gay character, his portrayal must at all times be handled without 'limp-wristed' actions"
        "The colloquy between Peter and Jessica...which relates to cunnilingus/fellatio is obviously unacceptable"
        "The relationship between Jodie and the football player should be handled in such a manner that explicit or intimate aspects of homosexuality are avoided entirely."
        "Father Flotsky's stand on liberalizing the Mass will have to be treated in a balanced, inoffensive manner. By way of example, the substitution of Oreos for the traditional wafer is unacceptable."

I looked at the Wiki article after my prior post.  In a section you didn't quote, it talks about protests led by the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, which was where my church was at the time:  "The Roman Catholic Church, led by its Los Angeles Archdiocese, also condemned the show and asked all American families to boycott it saying 'ABC should be told that American Catholics and all Americans are not going to sit by and watch the networks have open season on Catholicism and morality. [Soap] is probably one of the most effective arguments for government censorship of TV that has yet come along.'"  It seems that all the churches got up in arms without ever seeing the show, based on a review written by a Newsweek writer who hadn't seen it either!

Yeah, the same thing happened with The Life of Bryan. The cries of blasphemy started long before anybody had even seen the movie, and small towns all over the country banned it from showing in local theaters. You'd think these people would have the good sense to make up their own minds rather than basing all of their beliefs on the writings of random people.  Oh, wait. . .

I don't recall religion ever really being much of a subject in Soap outside of Father Flotsky, and he simply turned out to not have the calling. He left the church for his own reasons completely unrelated to Catholicism or Christianity.  In fact, his lack of faith was what allowed bad things to happen, and his return to faith resolved them. I'd call it a decent commentary on religion. Those always seem to go over the worst, though. In any case, this whole thing happened over all of 10 or so episodes. Kind of a minor point, really.

[MirrorMask]

I saw Sonic the Hedgehog.

It was okay I'd say. Nothing to write home about, but nothing to make you regret to have seen it either.

[pg1067]

Yeah, the same thing happened with The Life of Bryan. The cries of blasphemy started long before anybody had even seen the movie, and small towns all over the country banned it from showing in local theaters. You'd think these people would have the good sense to make up their own minds rather than basing all of their beliefs on the writings of random people.  Oh, wait. . .

I don't recall religion ever really being much of a subject in Soap outside of Father Flotsky, and he simply turned out to not have the calling. He left the church for his own reasons completely unrelated to Catholicism or Christianity.  In fact, his lack of faith was what allowed bad things to happen, and his return to faith resolved them. I'd call it a decent commentary on religion. Those always seem to go over the worst, though. In any case, this whole thing happened over all of 10 or so episodes. Kind of a minor point, really.

The thing with Soap is one of the few things of this sort that I recall from my Roman Catholic upbringing in the 70s and early 80s, but I came of age in the 80s, which was the era of the PMRC and televangelists.  That was pretty much the last gasp of organized religion having real control over artistic works, but I've done a bunch of reading on some of the nonsense that went on in the first half of the 20th Century with movies (both pre- and post-Hays Code) and, later, with TV.  Crazy stuff.

[ChuckSteak]

On the Waterfront (1954)

 

[gmillerdrake]

Alita: Battle Angel

Watched it with the kiddos tonight. Fun little movie. Solid CGI, basic story. Nothing special. It looks like they were hoping for a sequel with the way they ended it but who knows if they’ll get the chance.

[MirrorMask]

Well, since I started, I might as well go all the way, so I watched The Godfather part II.

I knew even less about it than the first one, so everything was new. It's impressive to go more than 40 years without spoilers, imagine my surprise in recognizing a young Robert De Niro playing young Vito Corleone! so the character has been played both by Brando and De Niro? wild.

The Vito storyline was great, they recreated old Italy and old NY very well. For the record, the italian / sicilian accents and dialects were so heavy that I had to watch the subtitles anyway 

Michael was shown to be once again effective and ruthless, and both movies ended with him orchestrating multiple deaths but it was less triumphant than the first one - in the first, the killings marked his rise to power, in this one, they were just the last loose ends cut after his personal turmoil with his life (the wife getting an abortion) and his run-in with justice.

I've seen the two storylines described as the parallelism between the rise of Vito and the fall of Michael, but even though I might have grossly misinterpreted the ending, I don't see Michael in such a ruin, he's still running his empire, he "just" lost his marriage and a brother to it, but it's not that he's going to jail or be irrelevant. in the organization....

[El Barto]

I've seen the two storylines described as the parallelism between the rise of Vito and the fall of Michael, but even though I might have grossly misinterpreted the ending, I don't see Michael in such a ruin, he's still running his empire, he "just" lost his marriage and a brother to it, but it's not that he's going to jail or be irrelevant. in the organization....

I never really thought of it that way, but if you don't take it so literally it's still apt. Think of it as the downfall of Michael's soul. He's joyless and brutal from the onset, and only gets worse, culminating in the whacking of Fredo. Compare him with Vito, who despite being an immensely powerful man still has time to be a loving husband and father, and able to enjoy the trappings of what he's created. It seems to me that relative to their beginnings Vito won and Michael lost.

[KevShmev]

I've seen the two storylines described as the parallelism between the rise of Vito and the fall of Michael, but even though I might have grossly misinterpreted the ending, I don't see Michael in such a ruin, he's still running his empire, he "just" lost his marriage and a brother to it, but it's not that he's going to jail or be irrelevant. in the organization....

I never really thought of it that way, but if you don't take it so literally it's still apt. Think of it as the downfall of Michael's soul. He's joyless and brutal from the onset, and only gets worse, culminating in the whacking of Fredo. Compare him with Vito, who despite being an immensely powerful man still has time to be a loving husband and father, and able to enjoy the trappings of what he's created. It seems to me that relative to their beginnings Vito won and Michael lost.

Agreed.

Michael had all the power at the end of II, but he paid a tremendous personal cost.

[MirrorMask]

Well, when you put it lilke that, I have to agree. Lonely at the top, with a trail of blood and family relations ruined to show for it.

[El Barto]

It seems to me that Vito was both loved and respected. Michael was only feared. The only person that even liked him was his idiot daughter.

[Cool Chris]

I would say Connie liked him. Even when she got in to the pissing match about her getting married in II, that was a bit of a phase, her exerting her own independence, making a decision for herself for the first time in her life. Al Neri probably did too to some extent. And what about Tom? 

[El Barto]

I would say Connie liked him. Even when she got in to the pissing match about her getting married in II, that was a bit of a phase, her exerting her own independence, making a decision for herself for the first time in her life. Al Neri probably did too to some extent. And what about Tom?

My recollection is that Connie ran to him out of sheer desperation. Without Vito there was nobody to take care of her except Michael. While she was certainly devoted to him, I don't know as she really liked him. Not sure, though. Neri was a subordinate and fiercely loyal. Did they ever have any sort of friendship, though? The last I recall of Tom was him being severely disappointed Michael had dumped him as consigilere and punted him off to Vegas. And Michael was a real dick about it. I thought about that the other night (I was watching Casino for the first time in 20 years). That could have been spun as a promotion, and instead it was simply "you're out." I think that was a distinctly burned bridge.

[Cool Chris]

With apologies to MirrorMask, I am thinking ahead to III a bit. At that point there does seem to be a friendship between Michael and both Connie and Al that goes beyond either familial ties or loyalty.

The timeline is getting muddled in my head, but Tom also said that he felt like Michael was a real brother. I think that was right after the failed hit attempt(?) so possibly spoken out of the emotional impact of the moment.

[KevShmev]

I would say Connie liked him. Even when she got in to the pissing match about her getting married in II, that was a bit of a phase, her exerting her own independence, making a decision for herself for the first time in her life. Al Neri probably did too to some extent. And what about Tom?

My recollection is that Connie ran to him out of sheer desperation. Without Vito there was nobody to take care of her except Michael. While she was certainly devoted to him, I don't know as she really liked him. Not sure, though. Neri was a subordinate and fiercely loyal. Did they ever have any sort of friendship, though? The last I recall of Tom was him being severely disappointed Michael had dumped him as consigilere and punted him off to Vegas. And Michael was a real dick about it. I thought about that the other night (I was watching Casino for the first time in 20 years). That could have been spun as a promotion, and instead it was simply "you're out." I think that was a distinctly burned bridge.

Yeah, once Michael came into power, his people skills were horrible.  Fredo betraying him likely never happens if Michael had treated him more like a respected big brother rather than a lackey.  Sure, Fredo initially taking the side of Moe Greene in the Vegas hotel room was a bad look, but Michael could have easily smoothed that over by taking more of a brother approach as opposed to giving a stern warning to never take sides of anyone over the family, ever.  You can bet your bottom dollar that Vito would have handled it much differently, thus one of many glaring differences between Vito and Michael.  And of course demoting Tom the way he did in front of everyone without even addressing Tom directly or telling him beforehand was a major kick in the balls.

[Orbert]

To me, a lot of that side of Michael -- the cold, the calculating -- came from his military background.  He was the baby brother, probably teased as he was growing up.  Somewhere in there he decided that he family "business" wasn't for him and never would be, and that would've divide him further from the family.  So he enlisted.

As a leader, he didn't have nearly the people skills his father had, and his main leadership model was the military.  Give orders, expect them to be carried out, punish those who don't follow them correctly, or get rid of them.  Efficient, sure, but doesn't exactly garner a lot of love.  As Barto said, he ruled by fear, whereas Vito's people did his bidding out of respect and love.

[El Barto]

And consequently he just seemed joyless and empty. He never had that joie de vie that his old man, or for that matter any of the other gangsters had. Everybody seemed to enjoy life except him. I can't even think of a time when he laughed.

[Cool Chris]

Right, when they went to that show where Fredo let slip he knew Roth and Johnny Ola, Michael looks downright bored. When he dances with Kaye at that party, it appears more out of obligation than love or affection (fun fact: Coppola said Pacino hated dancing, and he kept having him do it in Godfather films).

[KevShmev]

Heck, even in the scene when Michael sees Kay for the first time in years (after having been back for over a year) and proposes, it seems all business on his end.  No emotion whatsoever.

[New World Rushman]

Soap was the first show I watched regularly as a kid, and I'll still throw it on from time to time. I thought Burt's best moment was towards the end when he went to his childhood pastor seeking guidance while his life fell apart, only to have the elderly pastor die while he's explaining it.

Soap was an amazing show, and Richard Mulligan was a big part of that.  It was absurd, and meant to be, but the actors had real chops and could bring surprising depth and gravitas, just once in a while, to the most crazy situations.  Invisible Burt is a great example.  Another fave of mine was when he had an alien doppleganger or something (it's been a long time) who's going to replace him and basically steal his life, and the real Burt talks him out of it.  He appeals to Fake Burt's conscience, how he (Real Burt) has already done the hard part, built his life, raised some decent kids, and it's not fair that Fake Burt can just come in and get to reap the rewards, live out the golden years that Real Burt has worked hard to earn.

I watched that scene earlier when Chris brought it up. Here it is, along with the preceding scene of Burt confusing the hell out of Jodie. Billy Crystal and Mulligan really bring it home here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8laJD6yZS8w

So in November, 1979, it looks like alien Burt pulls an iPhone out of his pocket to get beamed back up.