DT & Double Albums

[Darkstarshades]

Dream Theater logic...
QQ's about labels not allowing them to produce double albums... Which leaves plenty of stuff out of I&W, FII, etc.
Is finally allowed to publish double albums...
Only releases 1...
Never writes enough material to require another double album.
Ever.
Again.

Anyway, It would be awesome if the next one was double... or concept.

[BlackInk]

I feel DT's style of writing is a bit too routine to allow for double albums. A concept wouldn't be as improbable.

[BlobVanDam]

The issue came up with FII mostly because they went so long without the label letting them record an album, and wrote so much material in trying to get into the studio, that they ended up in a situation with enough material for a double album. I don't think it's as much of an issue now that they write in the studio as needed.
And I'm glad they didn't get to release FII as a double album, because the album is much stronger as a result of culling the weaker material. I'd definitely say the same for IaW too.

This is a very common situation for bands recording albums to end up writing more than an album of material, and the vast majority of the time it's the right call to cut it down to one disc of the stronger material, otherwise we end up with something like Load/Reload, or Use Your Illusion 1/2, which both would have benefited greatly from being culled to one album. The same would have been the case with FII. I also don't think that any album post-SDOIT would have benefited from being even longer.

They've only had the creative need for a double album once since then, and I gather that it still took serious convincing to release SDOIT as a double album, and they were prepared to release it as one disc on the real possibility it wasn't going to happen. It may not have made the label any more open to doing it again in future either, so I don't think they had free rein to do it. Even if they did, just because they could do one, doesn't mean they should do one. Quality over quantity.

~75 minutes of music on every album is already a lot of music to write and record, and on the latest album they felt that even less total album time was appropriate for what they wanted to achieve creatively. If they ever felt the need to do a double album in future, I'm sure RR would be pretty open to it though.

[Rodni Demental]

I wouldn't really care one way or another, but a double album means more music so I'd be totally cool with that. If they write enough and want a double album, I'm sure they'd be allowed to at this point. I'm guessing they don't really have the intention of doing this though as they normally manage to squeeze everything into 80 minutes, nearly maxing out with SC/SFAM/FII/ADTOE by a couple of minutes. Those albums are all as long as they get really and they feel about right time wise without overstaying their welcome.

If it were to happen again it would probably have to be an accident, such as writing a concept piece and it gets out of control to the point where it will longer fit on the album.

[Stadler]

This is a very common situation for bands recording albums to end up writing more than an album of material, and the vast majority of the time it's the right call to cut it down to one disc of the stronger material, otherwise we end up with something like Load/Reload, or Use Your Illusion 1/2, which both would have benefited greatly from being culled to one album. The same would have been the case with FII. I also don't think that any album post-SDOIT would have benefited from being even longer.

Well, there are two issues here.  Artistically, I personally think that the statement that is Load/Reload and UYI1 and UYI2 are what they are.   I don't think a "single album" WOULD necessarily be better, but then again, I kinda like seeing the "process".  I rarely listen to the songs "Get In The Ring" or "My World", but those songs are telling and they do set the stage for the rest of the material.     Commercially, I question whether it's better to have to shell out for two $14.99 CDs as opposed to one double at what, $18.99? 

[425]

This is a very common situation for bands recording albums to end up writing more than an album of material, and the vast majority of the time it's the right call to cut it down to one disc of the stronger material, otherwise we end up with something like Load/Reload, or Use Your Illusion 1/2, which both would have benefited greatly from being culled to one album. The same would have been the case with FII. I also don't think that any album post-SDOIT would have benefited from being even longer.

Well, there are two issues here.  Artistically, I personally think that the statement that is Load/Reload and UYI1 and UYI2 are what they are.   I don't think a "single album" WOULD necessarily be better, but then again, I kinda like seeing the "process".

For how I, and I think many other listen to music, a single album of all good material would be better than a double album with some good and some not very good material. Load and Reload, for example, are bloated all to hell. Together, they're almost two full CDs worth of content—over two and a half hours. And I would say maybe half of that, maybe a little more, is stuff that I would go out of my way to listen to. With the Load situation, actually, I would say that there's maybe a little more than 90 minutes of material that I would understand releasing on an album, so that might actually have been a good situation to put out a double album but not a double album with each disc filled to capacity.

And I suppose I can somewhat understand the desire to see the process, but then again... There's a lot of stuff on the cutting room floor no matter what. Especially with a band like Metallica, whose method of songwriting seems to be writing songs by the dozens and then taking a few of the best ones. I remember them saying that for Death Magnetic they wrote something like 40 songs... Only 14 of which ever saw the light of day.

[bosk1]

Quality over quantity.

This argument is a complete nonsequitur.  Quality and quantity are not mutually exclusive. 

[BlobVanDam]

Quality over quantity.

This argument is a complete nonsequitur.  Quality and quantity are not mutually exclusive. 

I never said they were, but in the case of spending a fixed amount of time in the studio writing and recording an album as DT do, it is certainly a valid consideration.

[TheCountOfNYC]

The issue came up with FII mostly because they went so long without the label letting them record an album, and wrote so much material in trying to get into the studio, that they ended up in a situation with enough material for a double album. I don't think it's as much of an issue now that they write in the studio as needed.
And I'm glad they didn't get to release FII as a double album, because the album is much stronger as a result of culling the weaker material. I'd definitely say the same for IaW too.

This is a very common situation for bands recording albums to end up writing more than an album of material, and the vast majority of the time it's the right call to cut it down to one disc of the stronger material, otherwise we end up with something like Load/Reload, or Use Your Illusion 1/2, which both would have benefited greatly from being culled to one album. The same would have been the case with FII. I also don't think that any album post-SDOIT would have benefited from being even longer

Not to mention the fact that had FII been released as a double album, the band would have never released SFaM so it really worked out for the band as well as the fans in the end. The thing with SDoIT is that it was supposed to be a single disc and the title track was only supposed to be about 20 minutes long. When the piece became the 42 minute monster that we all know and love, they had a dilemma of cutting two songs to fit the epic. cutting the epic, or releasing a double album. The record company was open to a double album after the critical success of SFaM, so the band went with that option. After that, they never faced the problem of having too much music for one disc again.

[bosk1]

Quality over quantity.

This argument is a complete nonsequitur.  Quality and quantity are not mutually exclusive. 

I never said they were, but in the case of spending a fixed amount of time in the studio writing and recording an album as DT do, it is certainly a valid consideration.

It's not a valid consideration at all because quantity and quality do not necessarily have anything to do with one another.

[BlobVanDam]

Quality over quantity.

This argument is a complete nonsequitur.  Quality and quantity are not mutually exclusive. 

I never said they were, but in the case of spending a fixed amount of time in the studio writing and recording an album as DT do, it is certainly a valid consideration.

It's not a valid consideration at all because quantity and quality do not necessarily have anything to do with one another.

It's like you didn't even read my post.

[Jaq]

Blob is saying that given DT's methods of writing and recording, quality is an apparent consideration over quantity, not that the two are mutually exclusive.

Whether that actually applies to DT is up in the air.

[rumborak]

It's a rather obvious consideration, given one has to output twice the amount of quality in the same amount of time.

[bosk1]

Quality over quantity.

This argument is a complete nonsequitur.  Quality and quantity are not mutually exclusive. 

I never said they were, but in the case of spending a fixed amount of time in the studio writing and recording an album as DT do, it is certainly a valid consideration.

It's not a valid consideration at all because quantity and quality do not necessarily have anything to do with one another.

It's like you didn't even read my post.

Yeah, I did read your posts, and saying I did not is not really helpful.  The problem is that your post confuses correlation with causation, and you use two examples of unrelated bands that confuses the issue.

[emtee]

Seems like the perfect thread to predict that DT13 will be a double concept album.

[rumborak]

Actually, if I had to speculate anything, I would say DT are doing a studio documentary.

[Prog Snob]

Actually, if I had to speculate anything, I would say DT are doing a studio documentary.

About how to record an album when nobody seems to be in the studio for an extended period of time.   

[rumborak]

I don't know. Just saying, I find the total silence a bit weird.

[Prog Snob]

I don't know. Just saying, I find the total silence a bit weird.

I agree.  Maybe they're just taking their time with it instead of getting everyone in there at the same time, finishing it up as quickly as possible and that's it.  It seems like they are being more careful with this release and not putting a timeline on it.  So Jordan will take his vacations and MM will still be working from home.

[Dublagent66]

I don't care if it's a single or double album.  Hell, DT can put out another EP.  Just as long as it's good.  The only difference would be obviously quantity.  Quality is another story and strictly a matter of opinion.  I'll give you an example.  In my opinion, Haken's EP Restoration has more quality than the entire DT12 full length album.  Quantity wasn't even a factor to consider.  I'll say the same thing about ACOS.

On the other hand, SDOIT was able to accomplish both at the same time.  I don't think they would be able to duplicate that at this juncture in their career considering their touring schedule and the fact that they don't do a lot of writing in the studio like back in the day.  But, then again, who knows?

[ToT-147]

I think quantity is also a matter of opinion..

I like equally (well, this is relative, as you'll see) two songs.. Let's say The Mirror and Octavarium.. If I have to chose one of them for being better than the other, I can opine that because the shorter track (6 minutes) is more consistent, and doesn't need to last that long (24') to get to like me, thus is better..

On the other hand, I can think (and in fact this is what I think) that the longest song would be in that case the better one, because, yes, it is "equally" good that the other, but it has more music on itself.. So, I prefer to be listening over and over again ITPoE rather than TEI (pun intended ), even when I like both songs in the same way.. To be more precisely, almost in the same way...

[The Presence of Frenemies]

I think quantity is also a matter of opinion..

I like equally (well, this is relative, as you'll see) two songs.. Let's say The Mirror and Octavarium.. If I have to chose one of them for being better than the other, I can opine that because the shorter track (6 minutes) is more consistent, and doesn't need to last that long (24') to get to like me, thus is better..

On the other hand, I can think (and in fact this is what I think) that the longest song would be in that case the better one, because, yes, it is "equally" good that the other, but it has more music on itself.. So, I prefer to be listening over and over again ITPoE rather than TEI (pun intended ), even when I like both songs in the same way.. To be more precisely, almost in the same way...

To put this more simply, it's something like: A 20-minute song that rates an 8/10 actually has a lot less value than a 6-minute song that's a 9/10, because that's a lot of time to sink into hearing something inconsistent/imperfect, whereas if both songs rated a 9/10, the 20-minute one ends up actually being significantly better because it's much more music at the same (high) quality level. I'm not sure if that's exactly what you mean, but it's my general outlook on this issue anyway. 

[Lucien]

I think quantity is also a matter of opinion..

I like equally (well, this is relative, as you'll see) two songs.. Let's say The Mirror and Octavarium.. If I have to chose one of them for being better than the other, I can opine that because the shorter track (6 minutes) is more consistent, and doesn't need to last that long (24') to get to like me, thus is better..

On the other hand, I can think (and in fact this is what I think) that the longest song would be in that case the better one, because, yes, it is "equally" good that the other, but it has more music on itself.. So, I prefer to be listening over and over again ITPoE rather than TEI (pun intended ), even when I like both songs in the same way.. To be more precisely, almost in the same way...

To put this more simply, it's something like: A 20-minute song that rates an 8/10 actually has a lot less value than a 6-minute song that's a 9/10, because that's a lot of time to sink into hearing something inconsistent/imperfect, whereas if both songs rated a 9/10, the 20-minute one ends up actually being significantly better because it's much more music at the same (high) quality level. I'm not sure if that's exactly what you mean, but it's my general outlook on this issue anyway. 

This entire post feels like this and it feels wrong

[ToT-147]

I think quantity is also a matter of opinion..

I like equally (well, this is relative, as you'll see) two songs.. Let's say The Mirror and Octavarium.. If I have to chose one of them for being better than the other, I can opine that because the shorter track (6 minutes) is more consistent, and doesn't need to last that long (24') to get to like me, thus is better..

On the other hand, I can think (and in fact this is what I think) that the longest song would be in that case the better one, because, yes, it is "equally" good that the other, but it has more music on itself.. So, I prefer to be listening over and over again ITPoE rather than TEI (pun intended ), even when I like both songs in the same way.. To be more precisely, almost in the same way...

To put this more simply, it's something like: A 20-minute song that rates an 8/10 actually has a lot less value than a 6-minute song that's a 9/10, because that's a lot of time to sink into hearing something inconsistent/imperfect, whereas if both songs rated a 9/10, the 20-minute one ends up actually being significantly better because it's much more music at the same (high) quality level. I'm not sure if that's exactly what you mean, but it's my general outlook on this issue anyway. 

Yes, that's what I mean..

[Dublagent66]

Yeah ok, but what about this scenario?  You have 10 6:00 min songs rated at 9/10 and 3 20:00 min songs with the same rating.  10 songs wins.    If you go by the amount of mins, it's a tie. 

Or, you can change the criteria using 1 6:00 min song against 1 20:00 min song with the same rating.  Taking the "less is more" approach by saying the 6:00 min song accomplished the same greatness with less.  Less is more......more or less.   

It all boils down to a cluster of different opinions based on different criteria.  So yeah........whatever works.

Like I said before regarding the double album theory.  DT already hit their pinnacle with SDOIT.  No need to try to duplicate or better that.  Same goes for the 20:00 min epics.  I wish they would just stop.  The last attempt with IT only proved to me that more isn't necessarily better.  No use in trying to recapture past glory.  Most of the time it just doesn't work.

*points to sig*   

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah ok, but what about this scenario?  You have 10 6:00 min songs rated at 9/10 and 3 20:00 min songs with the same rating.  10 songs wins.    If you go by the amount of mins, it's a tie. 

Or, you can change the criteria using 1 6:00 min song against 1 20:00 min song with the same rating.  Taking the "less is more" approach by saying the 6:00 min song accomplished the same greatness with less.  Less is more......more or less.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-hUV9yhqgY

[bosk1]

But see, less is NOT actually more.  More is more.  It's right there in the definition.

[Dublagent66]

*points to your sig*   

[Randaran]

Yeah ok, but what about this scenario?  You have 10 6:00 min songs rated at 9/10 and 3 20:00 min songs with the same rating.  10 songs wins.    If you go by the amount of mins, it's a tie. 

Or, you can change the criteria using 1 6:00 min song against 1 20:00 min song with the same rating.  Taking the "less is more" approach by saying the 6:00 min song accomplished the same greatness with less.  Less is more......more or less.   

Let's say that the instantaneous quality of a 6 minute and a 20 minute song, in relation to time t in minutes, are represented by 4t-3 and 3t^2 -18t - 11. Assuming that my math is correct, the 6 minute song has a total greatness of 54, while the 20 minute song has a greatness of 180. So the 20 minute song is obviously better, right? However, they both have an average quality of 9. Which would be superior in this case?






Edit: Apparently I am really bad at math.

[fischermasamune]

Yeah ok, but what about this scenario?  You have 10 6:00 min songs rated at 9/10 and 3 20:00 min songs with the same rating.  10 songs wins.    If you go by the amount of mins, it's a tie. 

Or, you can change the criteria using 1 6:00 min song against 1 20:00 min song with the same rating.  Taking the "less is more" approach by saying the 6:00 min song accomplished the same greatness with less.  Less is more......more or less.   

Let's say that the instantaneous quality of a 6 minute and a 20 minute song, in relation to time t in minutes, are represented by 4t-3 and 3t^2 -18t + 4. Assuming that my math is correct, the 6 minute song has a total greatness of 54, while the 20 minute song has a greatness of 180. So the 20 minute song is obviously better, right? However, they both have an average quality of 9. Which would be superior in this case?

Well, the instantaneous quality should be between 0 and 10, so these functions don't work.

[Randaran]

Well, the instantaneous quality should be between 0 and 10, so these functions don't work.

It does not have to be between one and 10 if the scale you use has a range of negative to positive infinity. 

[Kotowboy]

Biffy Clyro's " Opposites " is a very rare example of a double album that's not full of "filler".

It's a tremendous album...

But conversely you can also have really short albums that are nothing but suck.

Quality is obviously more preferable than quantity but they do not negate each other.

[Calvin6s]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-hUV9yhqgY

I was getting rid of HBO right when this premiered.  I watched the first episode, recall liking it, but totally forgot about it until your link.  thanks.

<checking Netflix>

[Stadler]

For me:

f(x)="Quality of the song"
f(x)="Do my ears find it pleasurable"?

There is no variable "t=time" in that function. 

[hefdaddy42]

For me:

f(x)="Quality of the song"
f(x)="Do my ears find it pleasurable"?

There is no variable "t=time" in that function.

I don't have a "t" variable going into a listening situation.  But if I wind up with a double album that has about 1 album worth of quality and 1 album worth of filler, I get kind of pissed off.