Daylight Savings - Yay or nay?

[Nick]

Orbert, here is the big problem.

The time is the time. We have our time zones and the world goes round and round and round year after year with no issue.

Then for some reason we need to randomly select several months to adjust the clock and offset oddly from the rest of the world. If there is some good reason for it fine. But there's not, and the onus is on this dumb idea to have merit for itself. Otherwise we should just keep the clock as it was.

[Kotowboy]

My Grandad said once we should have "internet time" which is the same for everyone in the world.

Then when a live stream or something is happening - or you wanna arrange to chat on skype with your buddy on the other side of the world...

You say - " starts at 18:00 Internet Time " - then it's 18:00 for EVERYONE.

I thought that was a great idea.

[Calvin6s]

Time is arbitrary?

Tell that to the Doc when he's punching in his time coordinates in the DeLorean.  Did he account for DST?  Did he remember the leap years?  What about the moving of a second here and there year to year?

Did he try to save Lincoln by jumping back at the precise time to stop it only to be about an hour off forgetting that DST wasn't around then?

These are all very important questions if we expect to survive as the human race.

[Calvin6s]

Did they purposely align leap year with the Presidential election year so we have to endure those Primaries one extra day?
Or did they align it with the Olympics so we have to wait an extra day to not watch it?

[BlobVanDam]

Time is arbitrary?

Tell that to the Doc when he's punching in his time coordinates in the DeLorean.  Did he account for DST?  Did he remember the leap years?  What about the moving of a second here and there year to year?

Did he try to save Lincoln by jumping back at the precise time to stop it only to be about an hour off forgetting that DST wasn't around then?

These are all very important questions if we expect to survive as the human race.

That explains why he stuck to odd years!

And whether or not the time was arbitrarily chosen, the fact is that it's designed to progress at a constant rate that is not arbitrary. 1pm one day should always be 24 hours / 1 day ahead of 1pm the previous day. That's the point of time. To...... well, actually keep time.

[alcofribas]

I'm in favor of DST but only in Arizona.

[bl5150]

I have no issue with DST (apart from the deleterious effect on my curtains of course) - but currently in Queensland and dealing with businesses in the same country and same timezone , but different states with/without DST can be bloody painful.

[Orbert]

Okay, you guys have convinced me.  I was wrong; there is in fact no benefit to Daylight Savings Time.  It's all stupid.  I see that now.

[TempusVox]

When there was an agricultural economy in this country there were tremendous benefits. Now farming takes place on factory farms 24/7. It was also beneficial due to energy conservation during the last big "energy crisis". Now I'd vote to get rid of it. In my opinion I'd say those benefits are miniscule now.

[El Barto]

Okay, you guys have convinced me.  I was wrong; there is in fact no benefit to Daylight Savings Time.  It's all stupid.  I see that now.

The benefit is that half the people like it and it promotes commerce. The disadvantage is that half the people hate it and it's now slightly inefficient with regards to energy conservation. Oh, and it's just un-fucking-natural. 

[Cable]

Keep it an hour "ahead" like it is now, forever.

[Phoenix87x]

After 3 nights of tossing and turning because my body thinks its not time to go to sleep, I'm not really feeling the daylight savings.

[cramx3]

I think we can all agree we like that one night a year when we get to sleep one hour longer? 

[Chino]

I get two of those a week. No need for this nonsense!

[Zydar]

I think we can all agree we like that one night a year when we get to sleep one hour longer? 

And we all dislike that one night a year when we get to sleep one hour shorter. So it evens out.

[cramx3]

My Grandad said once we should have "internet time" which is the same for everyone in the world.

Then when a live stream or something is happening - or you wanna arrange to chat on skype with your buddy on the other side of the world...

You say - " starts at 18:00 Internet Time " - then it's 18:00 for EVERYONE.

I thought that was a great idea.

They do have this, it is called UTC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time

We use UTC where I work for scheduling since we are a global company.

[Prog Snob]

I think we can all agree we like that one night a year when we get to sleep one hour longer? 

And we all dislike that one night a year when we get to sleep one hour shorter. So it evens out.

So no point in using that as a pro or con.        I blame Ben  Franklin.

[hefdaddy42]

What amazes me is not that some people are against it; there will always be people who don't like certain things.  You can't please everybody.  No, what amazes me is that when you try to have an intelligent discussion, and people have already given reasons for liking something, and examples of the benefits, there are still people who say "There is no good reason for it."  Right after people have given reasons.

It's like in the band appreciation threads, you can have 30 people all talking about a certain band, how they love their sound, or their lyrics, or how they were brought back from the brink of suicide by a band, and there will be be people who say "I've never understood why people like them.  I've never heard of anyone who likes them."

Like, what the fuck?  Are these discussion boards, where we discuss things, or are they "post your opinion and ignore what everyone else is saying" boards?  How about actually trying to understand other points of view and respond accordingly?

People have said what they consider to be the benefits.  They've given examples.  Then someone says "There are no benefits".

People have said what they like about some band.  Then someone says "I don't understand what people like about them".

It's like no one here wants to actually discuss anything.

When people say "There is no good reason" or "there are no benefits" they probably mean from an objective point of view.  The only "benefits" are that some people like it (like you), which means it is just a subjective thing.  And people for whom it is an inconvenience would probably better be able to accept it if there were good, tangible, objective reasons for the change.  But there aren't any.

[Stadler]

And where the hell are DTF's scientists to handle these things???

Debunking global warming. 

[rumborak]

Well midnight would technically have to be what exactly?  Halfway between sunset and sunrise I am guessing.  So 12:00 probably isn't always technically midnight.  I'm just throwing a bone out there for discussion. 

Err, I'm pretty reasonably sure that if you put noon to coincide with the zenith of the sun, midnight (i.e. maximum darkness) will too be exactly at 0:00. It's not that the Earth speeds up halfway during the day, and then slows down again.

The problem, really, is that people in the wintertime still work from 9 to 5. Well, if say in Boston, where the sun in the winter is only up for a measly 9 hours (and barely above the horizon too), you actually are in your office 8 of those hours, you get jack shit sunlight. So, people shift the day away from the natural definition, so that when they get home, they still get some sun.
Whereas the true solution would be not rigidly adhering to the 9 to 5 schedule. Show up at 7am instead, and that way you can leave at 3 and still have sun.

[jasc15]

The problem, really, is that people in the wintertime still work from 9 to 5. Well, if say in Boston, where the sun in the winter is only up for a measly 9 hours (and barely above the horizon too), you actually are in your office 8 of those hours, you get jack shit sunlight. So, people shift the day away from the natural definition, so that when they get home, they still get some sun.

Yeah, but winter time is "normal" time anyway.  The shift happens in the summer, so the benefit you are talking about would not result from DST.

[Chino]

Well midnight would technically have to be what exactly?  Halfway between sunset and sunrise I am guessing.  So 12:00 probably isn't always technically midnight.  I'm just throwing a bone out there for discussion. 

The problem, really, is that people in the wintertime still work from 9 to 5.

Totally can relate to this one. There is a good six week period where it's dark when I leave for work, and it's dark when I am walking to my car after work. I will walk outside in the freezing cold at lunch just to see the sun.

[rumborak]

Well, I would naturally propose a definition that puts noon at the zenith of the sun. That is, the winter definition I guess.

[jasc15]

Not sure, honestly. I know that noon should be the point where the sun is half way across it's travel across the ecliptic at the equinoxes, at the equator. Whether or not our clocks actually lined up with it before all this DST nonsense I'm not sure, but it stands to reason that they did. This makes sense as the reference point has the daylight and darkness split evenly across AM and PM. Just seems natural. Noon should be precisely midday at that reference point with midnight being, well, midnight. While it would constantly be moving one way or the other between the solstices, it would still begin and end at a common point.

This isn't an issue of DST.  If noon were actually solar noon then every city and town would have a different local time.  This was what prompted the creation of standard time zones, where noon at each place in that zone wasn't too far from solar noon.

[rumborak]

I don't think anybody proposes complete "local time", where driving an hour west changes the clock by a few minutes
I think everybody is fine with having hourly time zones that are centered around the zenith definition. It's just that the artificial shift halfway through the year is kinda silly. Let just people shift their own work day if they feel they want to have more sun at the end of the day.
Hell, you could make a killing with alarm clocks that slowly shift the alarm based on that. That is, every day it shifts the wakeup time by a few seconds, so that by winter you wake up early enough, but have no jetlag symptoms.

[hefdaddy42]

If current time (DST) is the preference, then let's lock it in to be standard and leave it. 

[rumborak]

Also, another root problem of all this is that the vast majority of people spend their day in dimly, artificially lit offices. When we were all farmers back in the day, you got enough sun during the day, no matter winter or summer.

[Stadler]

Orbert, here is the big problem.

The time is the time. We have our time zones and the world goes round and round and round year after year with no issue.

Then for some reason we need to randomly select several months to adjust the clock and offset oddly from the rest of the world. If there is some good reason for it fine. But there's not, and the onus is on this dumb idea to have merit for itself. Otherwise we should just keep the clock as it was.

But it's NOT random, that's the point. 

Orbert was right in his critique, even if it doesn't change anything, and even if he recanted. 

There IS an objective reason, even if it may not be a worthwhile or cost-effective one (energy savings) for every individual.    It was not because of farming as is commonly thought, it was to save energy, and in the age where energy was expended solely for heat and light (and not cooling), it made sense.   As late as 1975, estimates showed at least a 1% savings in energy costs; however, this went away when air conditioning became commonplace (because energy was expended regardless of the time; in night it was heat/light, in day it was AC) the savings was lost, and in fact, it became a negative (because AC's use more energy than heating systems). 

There is still an objective commerce reason, as el Barto has said several times.   Maybe not Pink Floiyd, but here in CT they do twilight concerts in the park (Skynyrd and Willie Nelson played last year, Nelson is back this year as well) and it is excellent and fun.  This can't happen in winter because of weather not light, so it kind of makes more sense to have the light in the morning commute if it can't be 'used' for commerce at night. 

[masterthes]

so not in favor. can it please just go away?

[Prog Snob]

[quote author=Stadler link=topic=43383.msg1933935#msg1933935 date=1426083050

But it's NOT random, that's the point. 

Orbert was right in his critique, even if it doesn't change anything, and even if he recanted. 

There IS an objective reason, even if it may not be a worthwhile or cost-effective one (energy savings) for every individual.    It was not because of farming as is commonly thought, it was to save energy, and in the age where energy was expended solely for heat and light (and not cooling), it made sense.   As late as 1975, estimates showed at least a 1% savings in energy costs; however, this went away when air conditioning became commonplace (because energy was expended regardless of the time; in night it was heat/light, in day it was AC) the savings was lost, and in fact, it became a negative (because AC's use more energy than heating systems). 

There is still an objective commerce reason, as el Barto has said several times.   Maybe not Pink Floiyd, but here in CT they do twilight concerts in the park (Skynyrd and Willie Nelson played last year, Nelson is back this year as well) and it is excellent and fun.  This can't happen in winter because of weather not light, so it kind of makes more sense to have the light in the morning commute if it can't be 'used' for commerce at night.
[/quote]

But is it enough to actually change the time for everyone?  Is it still needed that badly?  It's like those ridiculous laws such as not being allowed to use a cell phone while driving.  Meanwhile, at least once a day i pass a woman doing her make-up while driving, a man using a buzzer to shave himself, and people eating.  So... it's excessive.

[BlobVanDam]

But is it enough to actually change the time for everyone?  Is it still needed that badly?  It's like those ridiculous laws such as not being allowed to use a cell phone while driving.  Meanwhile, at least once a day i pass a woman doing her make-up while driving, a man using a buzzer to shave himself, and people eating.  So... it's excessive.

The cell phone laws aren't ridiculous at all. It just makes it ridiculous that there aren't laws for all of those things too. If people are that strapped for time that they need to shave in the car, that's their problem.
Or it's DST's fault.

[Kwyjibo]

Are there any recent statistics what the people think about it? I think I remember a poll in Germany from two or three years ago where more people where for DST than against, but I don't remember the actual number.

Funny enough, in this thread the posts are almost always against it, the poll itself is not so clear. Where are the yay sayers? Discouraged by the non-discussion as Orbert pointed out?

[Prog Snob]

But is it enough to actually change the time for everyone?  Is it still needed that badly?  It's like those ridiculous laws such as not being allowed to use a cell phone while driving.  Meanwhile, at least once a day i pass a woman doing her make-up while driving, a man using a buzzer to shave himself, and people eating.  So... it's excessive.

The cell phone laws aren't ridiculous at all. It just makes it ridiculous that there aren't laws for all of those things too. If people are that strapped for time that they need to shave in the car, that's their problem.
Or it's DST's fault.

I think laws for any of that is excessive. Stop making laws and banning shit.  It seems like there is a law for everything these days. 

[BlobVanDam]

But is it enough to actually change the time for everyone?  Is it still needed that badly?  It's like those ridiculous laws such as not being allowed to use a cell phone while driving.  Meanwhile, at least once a day i pass a woman doing her make-up while driving, a man using a buzzer to shave himself, and people eating.  So... it's excessive.

The cell phone laws aren't ridiculous at all. It just makes it ridiculous that there aren't laws for all of those things too. If people are that strapped for time that they need to shave in the car, that's their problem.
Or it's DST's fault.

I think laws for any of that is excessive. Stop making laws and banning shit.  It seems like there is a law for everything these days. 

It's not excessive. It's been proven for a fact that using a phone has a big impact on driving ability. I can't see why most of those other things wouldn't also have a serious impact. Driving is a privilege that shouldn't be taken so lightly.
I don't see how any of that is really comparable to DST either way.

[Prog Snob]

But is it enough to actually change the time for everyone?  Is it still needed that badly?  It's like those ridiculous laws such as not being allowed to use a cell phone while driving.  Meanwhile, at least once a day i pass a woman doing her make-up while driving, a man using a buzzer to shave himself, and people eating.  So... it's excessive.

The cell phone laws aren't ridiculous at all. It just makes it ridiculous that there aren't laws for all of those things too. If people are that strapped for time that they need to shave in the car, that's their problem.
Or it's DST's fault.

I think laws for any of that is excessive. Stop making laws and banning shit.  It seems like there is a law for everything these days. 

It's not excessive. It's been proven for a fact that using a phone has a big impact on driving ability. I can't see why most of those other things wouldn't also have a serious impact. Driving is a privilege that shouldn't be taken so lightly.
I don't see how any of that is really comparable to DST either way.
[/quote

Proven for a fact?  Just out of curiosity, where and how was this research done?   It's also been proven that less accidents happen if you don't drive so should we all stay home to be even extra safe?  You don't need to create laws for every little thing in existence just to create the illusion of safety.  I feel less safe driving beside an elderly person than I would if the person beside me was talking on their phone.

Connection to DST, nothing except something that is unnecessary.