The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls

[Samsara]

Happy Belated to the Air Raid Siren!

Sure hope Iron Maiden announces more U.S. tour dates soon. I want to see this tour! 

[Mosh]

Respectfully, there is already a thread on the DT side that has run the JLB conversation to the ground, do we really need to have it here too? 

I have several thoughts/speculations about the Bruce thing that kind of all run in conflict with each other:

1: Having major rock bands last 50+ years and continue to be major draws is really sort of unprecedented and we're only in the last decade starting to see bands with that kind of legacy reckon with their age limits. Everyone (including Bruce) uses the Stones comparison because it's the only comparable situation. I feel like Kiss has been the most notorious example of a band that is openly planning to continue without the original members, but there are also examples such as Yes and Judas Priest where original members are gradually phased out but the group continues touring with younger musicians. Iron Maiden is a weird example because they have had an unusually stable lineup compared to other rock bands. It's going to be weird to see Maiden tour without even one of the members, but they are becoming increasingly candid about that being something they are willing to explore.

Ultimately, I think these rock bands are just "too big to fail" in the sense that they are major million dollar productions that not just turn huge profits but also are responsible for the employment of thousands of people, some of whom have been with the band since the beginning. It has to be hard to tell the entire road crew that they need to find work elsewhere because someone in the band is no longer able to play live. There's an element of leaving money on the table especially if audiences have made it clear time and time again that they don't care who is in the band.

2: It makes sense that Bruce would want to pick his replacement, I'm sure if they had to replace him they would need to go more the tribute singer route and find someone who can replicate Bruce's singing style, rather than going in a different direction ala Blaze. It's hard to imagine Maiden drawing without Bruce Dickinson, but I can actually see it working if they get someone who matches his sound, style, and stage presence. It's hard to imagine Maiden going the tribute band route, but again I think money talks and it doesn't seem like as much of an outside possibility as it did maybe ten years ago. It ultimately comes down to Steve though and given how historically stubborn he's been, I could see him wanting to continue without Bruce ONLY to the extent that he wants to continue touring.

3:

BUT... take this for what it is.  I love Bruce, first metal front man I ever saw live, and is still the standard by which I measure all others, but he is a proud man. He's saying this because he CAN still deliver, and he has been delivering at some would say the highest level of his career on these last couple tours.  The guy is a freak of nature; he got cancer and kicked it's ass all over the Hammersmith Odeon.

I think you wouldn't get that level of cocksureness if Bruce wasn't on the top of his game.  (And of course, you have no idea whether he's had the conversation with Steve who said "if you go, we all go", making it a moot point.)

The thing with this, Bruce does have a giant ego and is clearly proud of his abilities, but sometimes I think that leads to decisions that don't necessarily lead to high quality consistent performances. Take Legacy of the Beast leg 3 for example. Bruce clearly struggled with Aces High, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was his choice to put it last given that they were trying to make the Spitfire more of a grand finale/photo op kind of moment. I'm not saying that he has turned in bad performances, although there have been quite a few examples of him overshooting his current abilities. I could absolutely see him staying in the game past his prime, although it's amazing we're not there yet.

[Samsara]

Well stated, Mosh. It really IS unprecedented. I mean, yes, the Stones are really the only example out there. And as you rightly put, Yes and Priest keep going. Kansas is doing it too. But in all honestly, Maiden is bigger than Kansas, Priest, and Yes. So you look at the Stones and see how you compare.

Loved your point about some of these bigger organizations really being that - a big employer with many on the payroll. There is...likely, an obligation felt to those folks. So if the band can continue and deliver at a level people love, then why not?

I don't really see Maiden continuing without Bruce at this point. Back when he left the first time, it made sense for them to continue. It didn't work out, Bruce returned, and they've pounded it for 20+ years, and aside from Metallica, Maiden is the biggest metal act on the planet. I can't see Steve continuing Maiden without Bruce. Without someone else in the band - yes. Without Bruce and that identity? No. They are just too big now.

Overall, I've seen Maiden many times, and saw the Legacy of the Beast tour twice. Bruce was awesome. But he struggled with high notes. Aces High, and some others. But his performance was just so amazing that it wasn't a big deal. And that's why, at least for me, Bruce gets a pass. He's running all over, singing at a high level, and if he misses some higher points, so what. Whereas some other singers, who don't do anything else but stand there, and you are fixated on their voices...it is much more glaring.

For me though, Maiden would be done in my eyes if Bruce stepped down at this juncture. If any of the other guys stepped down, including Steve, IMO, I think Maiden continues just fine. But Bruce is the ringmaster on stage and the voice of the band. At this stage, without him, there's no Maiden.

[cramx3]

I don't want Maiden to continue without Bruce.  If they did, I'd still check it out, but I think for Maiden's legacy, it's best the band calls it quits at this point if someone can't do it anymore.  I get the feeling they don't really want to go the route some other bands have gone with replacing members with younger people.  Maiden just aren't the same and I'd hope they treat their ending differently and with resect to the legacy.

[ozzy554]

Also Bruce loves to make it harder on himself. I admire them wanting to play things in their original key but sometimes even going down like half a step I think would make things much easier for him.

[TAC]

I don't want Maiden to continue without Bruce.  If they did, I'd still check it out, but I think for Maiden's legacy, it's best the band calls it quits at this point if someone can't do it anymore.  I get the feeling they don't really want to go the route some other bands have gone with replacing members with younger people.  Maiden just aren't the same and I'd hope they treat their ending differently and with resect to the legacy.

So I'm not directing this at you Marc, but you make an interesting point. Seems Judas Priest had no issue with it. However, Saxon's guitarist, Paul Quinn, an original member, is basically no longer touring with the band, though he does show up here and there to join them on stage. Biff Byford said it was very important to the band that they got a peer or an older ..musician to fill the spot, and not some hot shot. Diamond Head's Brian Tatler is touring with Saxon now. I actually think that's cool.

[cramx3]

I don't want Maiden to continue without Bruce.  If they did, I'd still check it out, but I think for Maiden's legacy, it's best the band calls it quits at this point if someone can't do it anymore.  I get the feeling they don't really want to go the route some other bands have gone with replacing members with younger people.  Maiden just aren't the same and I'd hope they treat their ending differently and with resect to the legacy.

So I'm not directing this at you Marc, but you make an interesting point. Seems Judas Priest had no issue with it. However, Saxon's guitarist, Paul Quinn, an original member, is basically no longer touring with the band, though he does show up here and there to join them on stage. Biff Byford said it was very important to the band that they got a peer or an older ..musician to fill the spot, and not some hot shot. Diamond Head's Brian Tatler is touring with Saxon now. I actually think that's cool.

Yeah, they could go fill in with someone I really like and respect.  It could work.  It could be great. (Id very likely still go to the show)  But there's a big part of me that would rather IM hang it up.  I think that's just the fan boy in me as I don't usually feel that way with most bands, but IM are different for me.

[MirrorMask]

I don't want Maiden to continue without Bruce.  If they did, I'd still check it out, but I think for Maiden's legacy, it's best the band calls it quits at this point if someone can't do it anymore.  I get the feeling they don't really want to go the route some other bands have gone with replacing members with younger people.  Maiden just aren't the same and I'd hope they treat their ending differently and with resect to the legacy.

Same here. Iron Maiden are the biggest metal band on the planet, rivaled only by Metallica, and I want them to end with integrity, style and selling out massive stadium shows, not playing average sized venues with a singer 30 years younger that mimics Bruce's style (sorry, brazilian guy who makes entertaining videos on YouTube singing songs like Bruce would, and good luck for your band).

I agree also on the "we can't essentially fire all people that work for us" angle, but I still stand by my point of "nobody really wants to be the one that kills the band", see Glenn Tipton; I mean, did they even have the discussion? we'll never know if the other band members asked Glenn "so.... I guess this is it?" and he was "no, no, no, I absolutely want you to continue" or when he offered that, the others sighed with relief because they really didn't want to tell him "yeah you're important and all but look, we wanna go on, so screw you and your intention to retire Priest".

[wolfking]

Pretty sure Glenn stepped back from touring on his own accord when he knew he couldn't keep up anymore.  It's his band, there's no way there would have been a discussion giving him any sort of ultimatum with the other members.

[Stadler]

The problem with Maiden, though, is that they went down this path before and I can't see them doing that again.  I can't see them touring stadia around the world even without an album (with Bruce) then going back to doing theaters with the new version of Blaze.  And any of the guys that could probably do it - RONNIE ROMERO - I am patently NOT INTERESTED in seeing in Maiden. 

[MirrorMask]

I wonder what would the guys do if Iron Maiden should retire.

Pretty sure Steve would keep going with British Lion until he figuratively drops dead on stage.

Bruce would continue to do a gazillion things, most likely at least another solo album besides the one we MIGHT getting next year or in 2025.

The other guys... dunno. Dave Murray is rumoured to be the one that wants to retire. He'd probably enjoy a quiet life like Nicko, who I assume would still do some clinics here and there. Adrian would have more time for fishing and maybe for another album with Kotzen, and Janick, dunno again, he'd probably enjoy retirement as well.

[cramx3]

Nicko also has his rib restaurant in Florida.  I'm sure he'd just enjoy the retirement Florida life of running the joint and enjoying the weather. 

[ozzy554]

Pretty sure Glenn stepped back from touring on his own accord when he knew he couldn't keep up anymore.  It's his band, there's no way there would have been a discussion giving him any sort of ultimatum with the other members.

According to Halford's book while the other members could see Glenn was really struggling it was Glenn himself who made the decision and picked Andy to fill in for him on tour. He said only Glenn could made that decision and they were never going to make it for him.

[wolfking]

Pretty sure Glenn stepped back from touring on his own accord when he knew he couldn't keep up anymore.  It's his band, there's no way there would have been a discussion giving him any sort of ultimatum with the other members.

According to Halford's book while the other members could see Glenn was really struggling it was Glenn himself who made the decision and picked Andy to fill in for him on tour. He said only Glenn could made that decision and they were never going to make it for him.

Yes!  That's right, I remember him being the one saying Andy should step in.

[wolfking]

The problem with Maiden, though, is that they went down this path before and I can't see them doing that again.  I can't see them touring stadia around the world even without an album (with Bruce) then going back to doing theaters with the new version of Blaze.  And any of the guys that could probably do it - RONNIE ROMERO - I am patently NOT INTERESTED in seeing in Maiden.

For the love of God no!!

[TAC]

I’m ignoring Stadler’s post altogether. 

[wolfking]

A post like that cannot be unseen! 

[TAC]

You’re not helping!

[wolfking]

  Touche.

[MirrorMask]

Anyway, Bruce reportedly talked about a "surprise" they can't disclose yet.

What it might be? no way a new album is coming, they're already committed to the Future Past tour in 2024. Yet another live album? not worth the teasing, and if it's a video release, it might tempt people into not paying tickets for the show next year (at least, this is the logic that Rod would go by I assume). If he was talking for Iron Maiden, it's not his solo album either.

Maybe something about a cool collaboration, partnership or something along those lines?

[Grappler]

I think it's a US tour announcement.  They may be contractually obligated to not make any announcements about additional US dates until after the Power Trip festival appearance. 

[TAC]

I think it's a US tour announcement.  They may be contractually obligated to not make any announcements about additional US dates until after the Power Trip festival appearance.

But that's not for another two months. Would they tease Bruce's "secret" that long?

Unless they're 2024 dates.

[MirrorMask]

I thought it was already a given that 2024 would be dedicated to a non-Europe tour. I now realize nothing is set in stone yet, so they must have told at the beginning "yeah we'll tour Europe in 2023 and the rest of the world in 2024" but nothing is official yet.

[Grappler]

I think it's a US tour announcement.  They may be contractually obligated to not make any announcements about additional US dates until after the Power Trip festival appearance.

But that's not for another two months. Would they tease Bruce's "secret" that long?

Unless they're 2024 dates.

I think they would.  Here's the quote:

Within the video, drummer Nicko McBrain and singer Bruce Dickinson tease the band's future plans, with Nicko stating, "We’re going to take a little time off and think about what we’re going to do after.” Dickinson adds: “Something else will happen. I can’t tell you what but you’ll be happy.”

They don't say anything about when they will make an announcement.  Just that they can't yet say what it is. 

[TAC]

Oh, ok. Framed that way, I can see that. I hadn't seen the quote.

[Glasser]

The problem with Maiden, though, is that they went down this path before and I can't see them doing that again.  I can't see them touring stadia around the world even without an album (with Bruce) then going back to doing theaters with the new version of Blaze.  And any of the guys that could probably do it - RONNIE ROMERO - I am patently NOT INTERESTED in seeing in Maiden.

[nick_z]

The problem with Maiden, though, is that they went down this path before and I can't see them doing that again.  I can't see them touring stadia around the world even without an album (with Bruce) then going back to doing theaters with the new version of Blaze.  And any of the guys that could probably do it - RONNIE ROMERO - I am patently NOT INTERESTED in seeing in Maiden.

 

[The Curious Orange]

I think it's a US tour announcement.  They may be contractually obligated to not make any announcements about additional US dates until after the Power Trip festival appearance.

But that's not for another two months. Would they tease Bruce's "secret" that long?

Unless they're 2024 dates.

I suspect their contract with Powertrip specifies that they can't announce and US date until after the festival. I suspect it's US dates, plus South America and probably a few other places besides. Senjutsu will be 3 years old at that point, so I wouldn't be surprised to see some of those songs to be dropped in favour of some of the missing classics. There's an outside possibility of a new album, but I wouldn't expect that until 2025 at the soonest.

I think they would.  Here's the quote:

Within the video, drummer Nicko McBrain and singer Bruce Dickinson tease the band's future plans, with Nicko stating, "We’re going to take a little time off and think about what we’re going to do after.” Dickinson adds: “Something else will happen. I can’t tell you what but you’ll be happy.”

They don't say anything about when they will make an announcement.  Just that they can't yet say what it is.

[Stadler]

Thoughts and prayers for Davey, though; he's lived on Maui for a while and we all know what's happening out there.  Hope he and his family are safe.

[porcacultor]

Thought of a prompt to ask you guys: what is your favorite instance of a difference between a studio version and a live version of a song in which the live version fares better (in your opinion)? General arrangement changes for when they play a given song live or specific released tracks, you name it.

I just love it in the Beast over Hammersmith version of Murders in the Rue Morgue when the guitars play that harmonized solo and there is no rhythm guitar track holding the fort, just the bass. It's a very unlikely scenario nowadays with the 3 guitars (when it's pretty much a given that one of the guitars will play the rhythm while the other two harmonize, with the possible exception that comes to mind being Rainmaker), but it's such a powerful moment. I'm always eager for it when I listen to that album.

Honorable mentions include any instance when Janick "doubles" a solo with Adrian (on Trooper and Evil that Men Do, for instance) or Dave (on Futureal, such lovely harmonies!).

[jammindude]

Almost seems too obvious, but Fear of the Dark from A Real Live One.

And…almost everything from Live After Death

[Mladen]

I've always thought the guitar harmony in Brave new world is richer and more interesting on the Rock in Rio DVD compared to the studio version.

[Zantera]

Drifter is one of my favorite Maiden songs and the live version from Beast Over Hammersmith rules.

[wolfking]

The harmonies from Powerslave on the Ed Hunter tour version.

[TAC]

I've always thought the guitar harmony in Brave new world is richer and more interesting on the Rock in Rio DVD compared to the studio version.

It’s even better on Death On The Road.