The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls

[cramx3]

But there are certain songs from both NPFTD and VXI that make me embarrassed to be a Maiden fan sometimes.

Add in FOTD for me (Chains of Misery comes to mind) and I agree with this statement.  I think it's kind of funny how my all time favorite band has a handful of songs that I think are just beyond terrible 

[425]

FotD is the only album I think has anything that's embarrassing musically (Chains of Misery, Weekend Warrior). No Prayer has a couple of songs that are embarrassing lyrically (I think Bring Your Daughter... to the Slaughter is just disgusting).

Virtual XI is all good.

[jammindude]

I’ve always said VXI is like Chinese water torture.

At first you’re thinking, “This isn’t so bad. Don’t see why everyone thinks this is such a bad thing.”  But then by the end of the 1000th repetition in DLTTEOAS, you’re screaming, “OMG!!!! MAKE IT STOP!!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE!!!!!”

[Lupton]

 

"Don't look to.. Don't look to... Don't look to the eyes of a stranger."
"Don't look to.. Don't look to... Don't look to the eyes of a stranger."
"Don't look to.. Don't look to... Don't look to the eyes of a stranger."
"Don't look to.. Don't look to... Don't look to the eyes of a stranger."

Hmmm...that actually fits really well over the chorus of Stratego. 

[wolfking]

I kind of just realised for the first time that there is only one song on NPFTD that's over 5 minutes.

Kade, I think you just hit on No Prayer's main problem.

The short songs on No Prayer are actually really good. Excellent, even.
No Prayer For The Dying (2021 Steve would've added 7 extra minutes turned this into a 12 minute masterpiece)
Run Silent Run Deep
Public Enema Number One
Fates Warning

But the "epic", Mother Russia, is really weak. As is the opener, Tailgunner. These are spots that Maiden is generally pretty strong at.

But these lesser "supporting" tracks are as strong as an other album's.

Except Hooks in You - that's one of the biggest pieces of garbage EVER. Can't believe that Smith is partially responsible for it. Horrible track as is Holy Smoke. And Bring Your Daughter isn't much better. 

While not the greatest tracks ever, I don't have a problem with either Mother Russia or Tailgunner or the rest of the album. The rest of the album is good to my ears.

Bring Your Daughter was my most hated IM song until El Dorado came along.  Hooks in You is indeed pretty terrible too.

[soupytwist]

Quest for fire is the most embarrassing Maiden song imo. I cannot believe firstly noone in the band said 'about these lyrics....' and secondly that it made the album (and an album as otherwise great as Piece of Mind).

[Glasser]

I’ve always said VXI is like Chinese water torture.

At first you’re thinking, “This isn’t so bad. Don’t see why everyone thinks this is such a bad thing.”  But then by the end of the 1000th repetition in DLTTEOAS, you’re screaming, “OMG!!!! MAKE IT STOP!!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE!!!!!”

I actually was shocked at how many times it repeats. 

[IDontNotDoThings]

I’ve always said VXI is like Chinese water torture.

At first you’re thinking, “This isn’t so bad. Don’t see why everyone thinks this is such a bad thing.”  But then by the end of the 1000th repetition in DLTTEOAS, you’re screaming, “OMG!!!! MAKE IT STOP!!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE!!!!!”

I actually was shocked at how many times it repeats. 

Man, you guys must sure hate post-rock if a repeating idea being made into a long crescendo bothers you so much.

[Glasser]

I’ve always said VXI is like Chinese water torture.

At first you’re thinking, “This isn’t so bad. Don’t see why everyone thinks this is such a bad thing.”  But then by the end of the 1000th repetition in DLTTEOAS, you’re screaming, “OMG!!!! MAKE IT STOP!!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE!!!!!”

I actually was shocked at how many times it repeats. 

Man, you guys must sure hate post-rock if a repeating idea being made into a long crescendo bothers you so much.

I never said I disliked it. I just found it funny. I never liked Blaze era until recently tbh.

[425]

I like Don't Look to the Eyes of a Stranger and I don't mind the repetition. I think it's a bit odd that the idea that's being repeated and varied comes with a specific set of repeated words, but it works for me. Ditto The Angel and the Gambler.

[Ben_Jamin]

Okay I finally listened to DLTTEOAS, and while I do get what people mean about the repetition of the words, I also get the purpose. It would work way, way better with Bruce Dickinson adding his vocal build-up. Even though that build-up is nice, the song could've ended right before it and it would've been fine, but for some reason Harris just had to add more...

[Dedalus]

I like Don't Look to the Eyes of a Stranger and I don't mind the repetition. I think it's a bit odd that the idea that's being repeated and varied comes with a specific set of repeated words, but it works for me. Ditto The Angel and the Gambler.

Although the song is gigantic and repeats the same lines 22 times  , it has an interesting kind of rocker spirit  .

The guitarists took advantage of this in their solos. 

[Cruithne]

FotD is the only album I think has anything that's embarrassing musically (Chains of Misery, Weekend Warrior). No Prayer has a couple of songs that are embarrassing lyrically (I think Bring Your Daughter... to the Slaughter is just disgusting).

Bring Your Daughter... as a Nightmare On Elm Street song is fine. As an Iron Maiden track it's a bit of a headscratcher that they didn't change the lyrics. Maybe they tried and it just didn't scan properly and ended up leaving it as is.

However, it did provide the amusement of Top Of The Pops refusing to play it, because apparently letting Jimmy Saville present the program was a-ok but playing a song with lyrics for a horror movie wasn't.

[Stadler]

Current ranking without Senjutsu;

1. TFF
2. BNW
3. AMOLAD
4. DOD
5. TBOS

TFF has only recently taken the top spot.  I'm surprised how well it's aged for me.  I still can't say where Senjutsu would rank.  It could get 2nd or 3rd though.

I love the direction Maiden has taken in the past couple years.  Every album (except AMOLAD) has been an instant success with me.   Some fade over time (TBOS), some don't (TFF), but this darker, more complicated, more nuanced "presentation" (I love that word) of the band is really working for me.

For me:

1. TFF
2. DOD
3. TBOS
4. AMOLAD
5. BNW

Right now, Senjutsu would be number one, but I want to give it some more time first before I drop it in there.  There's not one skippable song yet (like there was with TBOS). 

I'm really digging the melodies on this (I find myself singing a lot of the songs during the day, and that's not usually the case with Maiden) and I'm liking a lot some of the things that are getting criticism (the intros, the guitars doubling the vocals, especially on the title track).

[wolfking]

Agree with pretty much all of that Bill.

This album could venture into masterpiece territory the way it's going.

[MirrorMask]

Speaking of direction, is there a limit to where this style can go? let's look back at the albums:

BNW was the "comeback", a fairly safe reunion album.
DOD already started to take some chances, with some diversity and less predictability.
Matter was darker, less accessible, and had quite a few long songs.
Final Frontier was basically the same template of Matter when it comes to the songs, once again a bunch of epics.
Book of Souls went all in, double album with a 13 minutes song and a 18 minutes piano piece.

Ok, Book of Souls was the limit, they couldn't go further than that, right? they would have had to scale down a bit, right?

Well, no! double album again! the opening song is long and slow! three epics in a row! we put a song with four verses and then we go into solos for six minutes or whatever because fuck you, "Play the Classics" guy!

At this point, if they do another album, I wouldn't know what to expect in term of song lenghts and structures.

[TAC]

Me neither but I know it’ll be awesome!!

[cramx3]

At this point, if they do another album, I wouldn't know what to expect in term of song lenghts and structures.

If I had to guess, the next album would be more of the same.  There's a lot of rehashed ideas on Senjutsu so it does kind of feel like they are locked in on this style.  We know it won't be funk though. 

[soupytwist]

Has there ever been any reason from the band as to why NPFTD was a back to basics album?  It's reverses the direction they'd been heading since Beast though to Seventh and kind off went back to a Debut/Killers vibe.  Looking at Wiki I do see a small but noticeable decline in sales of each album from that period, was this part of the reason?

[jammindude]

Has there ever been any reason from the band as to why NPFTD was a back to basics album?  It's reverses the direction they'd been heading since Beast though to Seventh and kind off went back to a Debut/Killers vibe.  Looking at Wiki I do see a small but noticeable decline in sales of each album from that period, was this part of the reason?

I have no idea, but I do know that the “no synths” prejudice in the US metal market was not to be believed. And I also know that IM, JP, and Ozzy (along with every other metal hero from the late 70s/early 80s) introducing synths was primarily responsible for the rise of “the big 4”…and, by extension, the entire thrash metal movement.

EDIT - I’m insinuating that it’s possible they were trying to recapture the US audience by losing the synths. Unfortunately, it just wasn’t a very good album.

[MirrorMask]

Anyway, the solo in The Writing on the Wall is great, especially the section that starts at 04:26 and climaxes at 04:48 is glorious.

[pg1067]

Has there ever been any reason from the band as to why NPFTD was a back to basics album?  It's reverses the direction they'd been heading since Beast though to Seventh and kind off went back to a Debut/Killers vibe.  Looking at Wiki I do see a small but noticeable decline in sales of each album from that period, was this part of the reason?

I have no idea, but I do know that the “no synths” prejudice in the US metal market was not to be believed. And I also know that IM, JP, and Ozzy (along with every other metal hero from the late 70s/early 80s) introducing synths was primarily responsible for the rise of “the big 4”…and, by extension, the entire thrash metal movement.

EDIT - I’m insinuating that it’s possible they were trying to recapture the US audience by losing the synths. Unfortunately, it just wasn’t a very good album.

I don't know about this.  There certainly were folks who hated synths in their metal, but I don't think the "prejudice" had any real impact.  After all, one of the biggest metal albums of 1988 (Operation: Mindcrime) had synth work all over it.  Also, by 1990, there was a pretty clear division between mainstream metal and thrash.  Maybe this is just a different way of saying the same thing, but I think NPFTD was a reaction to how big thrash had gotten and the up-and-coming grunge movement.  And yeah, it just wasn't a very good album.

[Lupton]

If No Prayer for the Dying had Fear of the Dark's production I would actually consider it a good album. But that's just me.

[nick_z]

I don't particularly love either production but, if anything, I think Fear of the Dark's might be a tiny bit worse...? I don't know, it seems so flat, sometimes I struggle to even hear Nicko's bass drum 

There's certainly good stuff across these two albums - and I have fond memories of when Fear of the Dark came out - but I'd say they sit pretty comfortably in the bottom 3 of my IM ranking, along with VXI (which is my least favorite). I can't quite say if I like Fear or Prayer better. Perhaps the former, since it arguably produced at least one big "classic", long-lasting live staple with the title track (Bring Your Daughter was very successful, but it doesn't seem to have withstood the test of time...)

I don't know about the "no synth" prejudice in the US...I think it might have been a thing in Europe, though. Maybe it was a little later, I'm not sure. I remember the band Rage felt the need to have a "No Keyboards!" disclaimer on the back of their "Trapped!" album (1992) after their previous record "Reflections of a Shadow" had dared to have some  Things have certainly changed...

[MirrorMask]

I don't know about the "no synth" prejudice in the US...I think it might have been a thing in Europe, though. Maybe it was a little later, I'm not sure. I remember the band Rage felt the need to have a "No Keyboards!" disclaimer on the back of their "Trapped!" album (1992) after their previous record "Reflections of a Shadow" had dared to have some  Things have certainly changed...

Total thread hijacking, but I love Reflections of a Shadow 

[nick_z]

Anyway, the solo in The Writing on the Wall is great, especially the section that starts at 04:26 and climaxes at 04:48 is glorious.

Many times YES to this. Fantastic solo.

[DoctorAction]

It's not short songs or a back to basics attitude that are the problem with NPFTD - it's that it only has 3 great songs on it.

Bruce had itchy feet, had already started looking elsewhere for excitement, started to explore more "rock'n'roll" avenues and done his first solo album. Adrian chucked it in.

Rock was huge but split across commercial and extreme divides. We'd be in our local pub and there was Warrant and Queensryche and Alice Cooper playing on the tv. At the same time, there was thrash and death metal shirts all over the drinkers.

Maiden were wondering where to aim themselves, and were growing apart, imo.

[nick_z]

Total thread hijacking, but I love Reflections of a Shadow 

Me too 

[pg1067]

I don't particularly love either production but, if anything, I think Fear of the Dark's might be a tiny bit worse...? I don't know, it seems so flat, sometimes I struggle to even hear Nicko's bass drum 

There's certainly good stuff across these two albums - and I have fond memories of when Fear of the Dark came out - but I'd say they sit pretty comfortably in the bottom 3 of my IM ranking, along with VXI (which is my least favorite). I can't quite say if I like Fear or Prayer better. Perhaps the former, since it arguably produced at least one big "classic", long-lasting live staple with the title track (Bring Your Daughter was very successful, but it doesn't seem to have withstood the test of time...)

I don't know about the "no synth" prejudice in the US...I think it might have been a thing in Europe, though. Maybe it was a little later, I'm not sure. I remember the band Rage felt the need to have a "No Keyboards!" disclaimer on the back of their "Trapped!" album (1992) after their previous record "Reflections of a Shadow" had dared to have some  Things have certainly changed...

It was interesting from my perspective because I liked a bunch of bands that used keyboards (Styx and Rush), but I certainly had some of the "no synths in metal" bias in the early '80s.  Also, I think there was some confusion among the anti-synth crowd as to the difference between a synthesizer and a keyboard.  I had a next-door neighbor who was hugely into Boston, and he often pointed out the disclaimer on their debut album about "no synthesizers."  I thought it was B.S. because I didn't understand that not all keyboard instruments were synths.

[cramx3]

It's not short songs or a back to basics attitude that are the problem with NPFTD - it's that it only has 3 great songs on it.

Bruce had itchy feet, had already started looking elsewhere for excitement, started to explore more "rock'n'roll" avenues and done his first solo album. Adrian chucked it in.

I think Bruce getting tired of IM at the time likely played a role.  I was only a little kid so I have no real experience to share in this opinion, but what I know about Bruce starting his solo band and also kind of having some conflicting ideas on Somewhere in Time with Steve that maybe they tried to change things to freshen it up with it kind of just failing.

But I do believe the times had to have played a role as well with metal kind of fading in the early 90s to grunge. 

[TAC]

I kind of just realised for the first time that there is only one song on NPFTD that's over 5 minutes.

Kade, I think you just hit on No Prayer's main problem.

The short songs on No Prayer are actually really good. Excellent, even.
No Prayer For The Dying (2021 Steve would've added 7 extra minutes turned this into a 12 minute masterpiece)
Run Silent Run Deep
Public Enema Number One
Fates Warning

But the "epic", Mother Russia, is really weak. As is the opener, Tailgunner. These are spots that Maiden is generally pretty strong at.

But these lesser "supporting" tracks are as strong as an other album's.

Except Hooks in You - that's one of the biggest pieces of garbage EVER. Can't believe that Smith is partially responsible for it. Horrible track as is Holy Smoke. And Bring Your Daughter isn't much better. 

While not the greatest tracks ever, I don't have a problem with either Mother Russia or Tailgunner or the rest of the album. The rest of the album is good to my ears.

Hooks In You is one of the 5 worst songs Maiden has ever recorded. Holy Smoke would've been an awesome B-side. I consider neither essential, and I wasn't really referring to them when I said their shorty songs were good. MOST of them were.

And as far as Bring You Daughter...that song is excellent, I mean other than the Bring Your Daughter To the Slaughter part, which I know is a big part. But the verses are excellent, and the chorus section, the music..not the words, is great.

Kind of like Public Enema Number One..A great song killed by an awful title.



With No Prayer, Steve really wanted a more of a stripped down feel, after going through the 80's. And he obviously wanted that stripped down approach reflected in their toned down stage show, which I still maintain is one of my all time favorite tours.


In a way, Steve kind of properly read the room regarding where music was going after the extravagance of the 80's. No Prayer was recorded in the summer of 1990, a full year before Nirvana released Nevermind.

Surprisingly, Bruce has 5 or 6 writing credits, yet he still feels a bit detached.

But Steve's material, after two years off is surprisingly weak, especially Mother Russia.


Jannick catches a lot of flak, but he basically came in and well, rescued the band would be way strong, but he gave the band a much needed heartbeat. Find a show from that tour on youtube and watch it. He was so energetic on stage, and he seemed to really pull Dave out of his shell.

[wolfking]

The No Prayer/FOTD tours are possibly the most entertaining for me.  The energy the band has is incredible.  I love the Donington 92 show.  Agree Janick put a firecracker up all their asses when it comes to live performances.

[Dream Team]

I’ve always said VXI is like Chinese water torture.

At first you’re thinking, “This isn’t so bad. Don’t see why everyone thinks this is such a bad thing.”  But then by the end of the 1000th repetition in DLTTEOAS, you’re screaming, “OMG!!!! MAKE IT STOP!!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE!!!!!”

I actually was shocked at how many times it repeats. 

Man, you guys must sure hate post-rock if a repeating idea being made into a long crescendo bothers you so much.

Pretty sure I’ve never heard “post rock” in my life so I guess I’m safe.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Smith then clarified: "Folky — not funky. If there's one thing that IRON MAIDEN will never do, that's funk. As much as I love it, but I don't think we'll ever do that. I can't imagine Steve slapping the bass…

What the funk Maiden, slapp da bass man!

[DoctorAction]

I've said it before but bears repeating:

It's an awful song but the opening riff to Hooks In You is fantastic.