The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls

[ProfessorPeart]

Super Deluxe is too expensive and the Blu-ray is just around Writing on the Walls. Pass.

Media Book is where it's at for me.

[kirksnosehair]

Still pissed I missed that show.

I had tickets and it was back when I lived 1/2 a mile from the venue.  IIRC the album had JUST been released when they came around and when I heard they were just doing "the new album start to finish and that's it" I sold my tickets to my neighbor who took his son to see his first concert and they came back and said "it was incredible" and I was like   

[425]

My view is that if you're going to a concert on the "*album title* tour," you should expect to hear anywhere from a few songs off that album to the full thing. So I actually consider playing only one song from TFF on the TFF tour to be an instance of the show not really matching the advertising, while hearing all of AMOLAD on the AMOLAD tour is something the audience should have seen as a possibility when they bought their tickets.

The sad thing about Maiden's approach to setlists is that they literally never play any song that wasn't played on the album tour. So, for example, the five songs from The Final Frontier that weren't played on the TFF tour are simply off the table for any live performance ever. That makes me really want them to always play the full album on its tour, whereas with other bands I would be more inclined to say I'm okay with them performing part of it and then maybe coming back to some of the songs they missed later.

[TAC]

Still pissed I missed that show.

I had tickets and it was back when I lived 1/2 a mile from the venue.  IIRC the album had JUST been released when they came around and when I heard they were just doing "the new album start to finish and that's it" I sold my tickets to my neighbor who took his son to see his first concert and they came back and said "it was incredible" and I was like 

My memory tells me that AMOLAD and Score were released on the same day in late August/early September. I bought Score and waited for my birthday at the end of September to get AMOLAD. I think they played in Boston on the 6th of October, but we were leaving very early in the morning on the day of the show.

[cramx3]

My view is that if you're going to a concert on the "*album title* tour," you should expect to hear anywhere from a few songs off that album to the full thing. So I actually consider playing only one song from TFF on the TFF tour to be an instance of the show not really matching the advertising, while hearing all of AMOLAD on the AMOLAD tour is something the audience should have seen as a possibility when they bought their tickets.

The sad thing about Maiden's approach to setlists is that they literally never play any song that wasn't played on the album tour. So, for example, the five songs from The Final Frontier that weren't played on the TFF tour are simply off the table for any live performance ever. That makes me really want them to always play the full album on its tour, whereas with other bands I would be more inclined to say I'm okay with them performing part of it and then maybe coming back to some of the songs they missed later.

If I recall, I think that first leg of TFF was before the album came out.  Personally, since TFF was not one of my favorite IM albums, I think that setlist was bangin since it was heavy on the reunion era and we still got at least the single from TFF.

As to your second point, I hate how that has become a standard for IM.  It's such a shame that theres so many quality songs they will never play.

[gazinwales]

This guy is great with the Maiden songs
https://youtu.be/pDvA7KqoHqE

[425]

If I recall, I think that first leg of TFF was before the album came out.  Personally, since TFF was not one of my favorite IM albums, I think that setlist was bangin since it was heavy on the reunion era and we still got at least the single from TFF.

I think you're right, now that you mention it, which does change how I'd evaluate that.

But TFF is my very favorite Maiden album, so there's a disagreement for you.

As to your second point, I hate how that has become a standard for IM.  It's such a shame that theres so many quality songs they will never play.

What's weird is that, as near as I can tell, that is an absolute rule that has held ever since they started releasing albums. Which is why I've always thought that the people clamoring for Alexander the Great are never going to get what they want. For whatever reason, I think that ship sailed in 1987.

[cramx3]

As to your second point, I hate how that has become a standard for IM.  It's such a shame that theres so many quality songs they will never play.

What's weird is that, as near as I can tell, that is an absolute rule that has held ever since they started releasing albums. Which is why I've always thought that the people clamoring for Alexander the Great are never going to get what they want. For whatever reason, I think that ship sailed in 1987.

Yeah, I wonder if it's like an actual rule within the band or just kind of the way things ended up happening.  I mean, there is some logic to it.  If they didn't think it would work well live then, why bother playing it later when they have such a huge catalog of music to choose from while also always making and performing the new music.  As for Alexander, I recall the band giving subtle hints about playing it which got people worked up with the idea.  If it weren't for that, I'm not sure why anyone would expect them to pull it out.

[MirrorMask]

Maiden always had so many unwritten rules about their setlists that makes you wonder if they were actually written after all.

As far as they could, I believe up until 1995, they always played (at least) two tracks off the previous album on the next album tour, to give a kind of continuity. They hardly, if ever, recycled the opener for most of their carrer - once a song opened a show, it was bye bye to that song for the next tour (maybe Tailgunner is the sole exception until the reunion years). And definitively if a song doesn't make the live cut for its own album tour, it never gets a chance again.

They also had a lot of continuity and never fell into the "We play the mandatory three new songs and then all classics and screw the most recent era" trap that most big bands fall into. Up until The Final Frontier, any other album has been represented at least somehow in a following tour. The Final Frontier is the only album whose songs have been played live in the corresponding tour, and I believe The Book of Souls will suffer the same fate as well (unless they want us to cliiiimb like a monkeeeey again next tour). It's a miracle they lasted that long, as I said other band go into "classic albums, a couple of new songs and screw the rest" mode way, way earlier.

[425]

As for Alexander, I recall the band giving subtle hints about playing it which got people worked up with the idea.  If it weren't for that, I'm not sure why anyone would expect them to pull it out.

I mean, I get why someone who didn't follow them closely enough to notice all these rules might expect them to do it, because I feel like a lot of bands would respond if there was a song that fans continually begged them to play. Like, if there was some specific Dream Theater song that a bunch of fans always asked them to play, I'd think there was a good chance they'd do it (I kind of feel like that was a factor in Space Dye Vest coming out once MP wasn't there with his objection). Even a band as big as Metallica has a history of doing this, including with songs that James Hetfield openly dislikes (Escape and Frayed Ends of Sanity).

Maiden always had so many unwritten rules about their setlists that makes you wonder if they were actually written after all.

As far as they could, I believe up until 1995, they always played (at least) two tracks off the previous album on the next album tour, to give a kind of continuity. They hardly, if ever, recycled the opener for most of their carrer - once a song opened a show, it was bye bye to that song for the next tour (maybe Tailgunner is the sole exception until the reunion years). And definitively if a song doesn't make the live cut for its own album tour, it never gets a chance again.

They also had a lot of continuity and never fell into the "We play the mandatory three new songs and then all classics and screw the most recent era" trap that most big bands fall into. Up until The Final Frontier, any other album has been represented at least somehow in a following tour. The Final Frontier is the only album whose songs have been played live in the corresponding tour, and I believe The Book of Souls will suffer the same fate as well (unless they want us to cliiiimb like a monkeeeey again next tour). It's a miracle they lasted that long, as I said other band go into "classic albums, a couple of new songs and screw the rest" mode way, way earlier.

I never noticed the "at least two songs from the previous album" trend, but that's a good point. I guess that's harder to maintain as your catalog grows, while the rule about not playing a song that didn't get played when it was first released is easier to maintain over time.

Good point about The Final Frontier. The BoS tour was during the low point of my Iron Maiden fandom, so I didn't pay close attention to that setlist, and I guess I wouldn't have expected it to come up in the Legacy of the Beast tour, especially after they'd already dedicated 20 minutes to the Blaze era and 9 minutes to AMOLAD. I really hope to see it come back somehow, although I don't know when and in what form that could happen. Maybe Coming Home slips in this time. My dream is The Talisman, but I'd put that at about a 0% chance of happening when the new album already has epic after epic.

[cfmoran13]

My only hope for this album is that those last 3 songs aren't "10+ minutes long just for the sake of being 10+ minutes-long" songs.  There have certainly been "epic" songs that could've benefitted greatly from a little extra editing. 

[RodrigoAltaf]

My only hope for this album is that those last 3 songs aren't "10+ minutes long just for the sake of being 10+ minutes-long" songs.  There have certainly been "epic" songs that could've benefitted greatly from a little extra editing.

Name ONE Maiden song over 10 minutes in the last 6 albums which didn't need some trimming.

[Dream Team]

Anyone try listening to TWOTW at 1.25 speed? Sounds much better.

[425]

My only hope for this album is that those last 3 songs aren't "10+ minutes long just for the sake of being 10+ minutes-long" songs.  There have certainly been "epic" songs that could've benefitted greatly from a little extra editing.

Name ONE Maiden song over 10 minutes in the last 6 albums which didn't need some trimming.

When the Wild Wind Blows
The Book of Souls

That's half of them.

[fadetoblackdude7]

My only hope for this album is that those last 3 songs aren't "10+ minutes long just for the sake of being 10+ minutes-long" songs.  There have certainly been "epic" songs that could've benefitted greatly from a little extra editing.

Name ONE Maiden song over 10 minutes in the last 6 albums which didn't need some trimming.

The Book of Souls. That song is perfect.

[RodrigoAltaf]

My only hope for this album is that those last 3 songs aren't "10+ minutes long just for the sake of being 10+ minutes-long" songs.  There have certainly been "epic" songs that could've benefitted greatly from a little extra editing.

Name ONE Maiden song over 10 minutes in the last 6 albums which didn't need some trimming.

When the Wild Wind Blows
The Book of Souls

That's half of them.

I respectfully disagree

[wolfking]

Even TRATB.  That whole thing for me needs to be as long as it is.  Brilliant!

[Dedalus]

Speaking of long songs, I have a hypothesis: I'm sure that if The Rime of the Ancient Mariner were from 2015 and not 1984, the number of people who would complain about the recitation of Coleridge's poem would be much higher.

But since it's a Powerslave song, people don't dare.

(When I was a kid and I heard the song for the first time, I was tremendously disappointed with the poem part, I could barely understand English. I had to become older to really enjoy it)

[IDontNotDoThings]

My midday 12km run was PERFECTLY timed to The Final Frontier.

Yeah, but for me, it'd be the song. 

I assume you meant the whole album.

You can run 12km in 9 minutes? Damn

[425]

Even TRATB.  That whole thing for me needs to be as long as it is.  Brilliant!

I'm on the fence about TRatB. The two I gave were the ones I think are absolute knock-down cases.

Really the only 10+ minute Maiden song that I definitely think could have been cut a bit is Empire. But I'm not really annoyed by its length, and I cut them significant slack since it's their first attempt at a song like that.

[TAC]

TRATB is perfect.

[MirrorMask]

Even TRATB.  That whole thing for me needs to be as long as it is.  Brilliant!

I'm on the fence about TRatB. The two I gave were the ones I think are absolute knock-down cases.

Really the only 10+ minute Maiden song that I definitely think could have been cut a bit is Empire. But I'm not really annoyed by its length, and I cut them significant slack since it's their first attempt at a song like that.

Empire of the Clouds is perfect and, as long as the solo section is, it makes thematic sense, since it symbolizes the storm growing stronger and stronger.

The first time I heard it I was already at the 15' mark and I was thinking "already? 15 minutes have already passed? only three remain?".... where do I have to sign to feel the same away about the likely 20 minutes song on the new DT album?

[Peter Mc]

Not on the last 6 albums but TROTAM could definitely be trimmed for me.  That poetry section in the middle goes on way too long imo.

[Stadler]

TRATB is perfect.

Agreed

[wolfking]

TRATB is perfect.

Agreed

Yep.

[RodrigoAltaf]

My midday 12km run was PERFECTLY timed to The Final Frontier.

Yeah, but for me, it'd be the song. 

I assume you meant the whole album.

You can run 12km in 9 minutes? Damn

If I could, I'd be in Tokyo for the Olympics right now! 

[Mister Gold]

My only hope for this album is that those last 3 songs aren't "10+ minutes long just for the sake of being 10+ minutes-long" songs.  There have certainly been "epic" songs that could've benefitted greatly from a little extra editing.

Name ONE Maiden song over 10 minutes in the last 6 albums which didn't need some trimming.

The Red and the Black, at least the studio version.

Somehow the song magically comes to live and works a bit better in a live environment, but the studio version needed work.

EDIT: Oh. Wait, sorry, I completely misread that post! Honestly When the Wild Wind Blows and The Book of Souls didn't need any trimming IMO. I can't remember which other songs in the Reunion Era actually cross the 10 minute threshold, because most of the epics tend to average out around 9 minutes tops.

Empire of the Clouds could've maybe benefitted from some trimming, but it's such a different sort of endeavor from the band that I'm not sure if that'd be the right call or not. The only 10+ minute long song from the Reunion Era that I'm sure needed trimming was TRATB.

[425]

EDIT: Oh. Wait, sorry, I completely misread that post! Honestly When the Wild Wind Blows and The Book of Souls didn't need any trimming IMO. I can't remember which other songs in the Reunion Era actually cross the 10 minute threshold, because most of the epics tend to average out around 9 minutes tops.

Sometimes people talk about it like there have been more, but pre-Senjutsu there have only been four in the Reunion Era, all of them on the last two albums: When the Wild Wind Blows, The Red and the Black, The Book of Souls and Empire of the Clouds.

Senjutsu will add three more: Death of the Celts, The Parchment and Hell on Earth.

In their entire career, there have only been two others: Rime of the Ancient Mariner and Sign of the Cross.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Let me change the approach then...which songs from the album since their reunion do you think could have been cut from the official releases? For me:

Blood Brothers
Dream of Mirrors
The Mercenary
The Nomad

Gates of Tomorrow
New Frontier
Face in the Sand

Out of the Shadows (aka Tears of the Dragon part II)
The Pilgrim
Lord of Light
The Legacy

El Dorado
Mother of Mercy
The Man Who Would Be King

The Great Unknown
When the River Runs Deep
Shadows of the Valley
The Man of Sorrows

[Zantera]

The Legacy is probably a top3 reunion song for me, the thought of cutting that is crazy to me.

[devieira73]

Let me change the approach then...which songs from the album since their reunion do you think could have been cut from the official releases? For me:

Blood Brothers
Dream of Mirrors
The Mercenary
The Nomad

Gates of Tomorrow
New Frontier
Face in the Sand

Out of the Shadows (aka Tears of the Dragon part II)
The Pilgrim
Lord of Light
The Legacy

El Dorado
Mother of Mercy
The Man Who Would Be King

The Great Unknown
When the River Runs Deep
Shadows of the Valley
The Man of Sorrows

Wow, Rodrigo, you were pretty extreme here! And some of the songs you listed are between my faves from reunion era!
To me, it would more of a question of editing some songs a bit and cut some of them, for a better flow of the albums and to have some interesting B-sides.

BNW
The Mercenary - just cut half of the bars from the chorus.
The Nomad - cut the orchestral part (and it's a case of plagiarism to me: from Becketts - Life's Shadow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JzzWam9wUI)
Blood Brothers - it's my less favourite, but still I wouldn't cut it from the album.

DOD
Gates of Tomorrow - cut.
Face in the Sand - cut just the first 30 seconds off the intro.

AMOLAD
These Colours Don't Run - cut.
The Reincarnation of Benjamim Bregg - cut all the intro. I would be great if it began with that great riff!

TFF
Satellite 15 (album intro) e  The Man Who Would Be KIng - cut.
When The Wild Wind Blows - I think it could benefit with some edition in the intro and at some places. I would cut the outro also.

TBOS
Shadows of the Valley - cut.

And I really would like that Maiden went back to the production values from Powerslave to Seventh Son. This is by far my main complain about the reunion era albums.

[Architeuthis]

What's all this talk about cutting songs off these albums. Somebody even said to cut Nomad. Really,, Seriously??   
I sure am glad that Iron Maiden didn't listen to all these distant future opinions on DT forums. Good grief Charlie Brown!     

[nick_z]

Let me change the approach then...which songs from the album since their reunion do you think could have been cut from the official releases? For me:

Blood Brothers
Dream of Mirrors
The Mercenary
The Nomad

I'd keep Blood Brothers, Dream of Mirrors and The Nomad. I'm ok with cutting The Mercenary, and probably add the Fallen Angel to the list (I'd normally argue IM need more of these shorter/punchier songs in their recent albums, but these are just not very memorable). Dream of Mirrors is a bit of a wasted opportunity. The song had so much more potential (is it true this was a Blaze-era song, originally?), but it gets a bit lost in repetition and such.

Gates of Tomorrow
New Frontier
Face in the Sand

Dance of Death is my favorite reunion album but yes, these are probably the weakest. Don't know if I'd cut all of them.

Out of the Shadows (aka Tears of the Dragon part II)
The Pilgrim
Lord of Light
The Legacy

Don't disagree overall, except for The Pilgrim, which I really like.

El Dorado
Mother of Mercy
The Man Who Would Be King

I'd say cut Satellite 15...The Final Frontier too, at least the way it currently is. But I'd keep Mother of Mercy.

The Great Unknown
When the River Runs Deep
Shadows of the Valley
The Man of Sorrows

I generally agree. Both The Great Unknown and When the River have good moments musically and, again, I like that they are a bit shorter. But yes, Bruce is really strained in the former, and the chorus in the latter is not very good. However, I'd probably keep Shadows of the Valley, despite the homage to Wasted Years...

[MirrorMask]

It's fine to not like every song as much as the better ones, but an album needs to be a full experience and well rounded up. Yeah, we'd all love the good ol' times of vynil and 45 minutes albums, those days are gone. Cut all those songs and you have weirdly paced albums without the necessary tracks to make it a rounder, more complete experience.

It's not that I disagree with everything, for example on an album full of long songs I could live without The Man who Would be King as well, but an album needs pacing also and removing so many songs kills that pacing.

[kirksnosehair]

My view is that if you're going to a concert on the "*album title* tour," you should expect to hear anywhere from a few songs off that album to the full thing.

Well, yeah, I agree with this.  I just wanted to hear more than just their new album.  Which is what they played that year.  Just A Matter of Life and Death, nothing else.