The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls

[MirrorMask]

Whaaaaaaaat? I was so sure to have checked back in the day...... well then, FML, I suck at Maiden knowledge.

There were FIVE "Longest Iron Maiden song", not four.

EDIT: Maybe the misconception comes from the way the reissues handle the weird "reprise" at the end.

Look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8IuFl3sMhk

It starts after 2 seconds of silence, the "real" song ends at 7:06/7, and then the distorted "You torture me, back at your lair!" reprise brings it up to 7:20.

That's probably why I remembered Phantom being slightly longer than Hallowed (by cheating a little).

[pg1067]

Whaaaaaaaat? I was so sure to have checked back in the day...... well then, FML, I suck at Maiden knowledge.

There were FIVE "Longest Iron Maiden song", not four.

EDIT: Maybe the misconception comes from the way the reissues handle the weird "reprise" at the end.

Look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8IuFl3sMhk

It starts after 2 seconds of silence, the "real" song ends at 7:06/7, and then the distorted "You torture me, back at your lair!" reprise brings it up to 7:20.

That's probably why I remembered Phantom being slightly longer than Hallowed (by cheating a little).

Looks like that was something that was just left on the master tape but not actually part of the song (or really even a "reprise").

[Zook]

I'm confused. What is the criteria for longest song? They have several other songs longer than those, minus Clouds.

[MirrorMask]

We're talking about longest songs EVER at a determined point of the discography. There was a time when To Tame a Land was the longest song in Iron Maiden's discography, before neither Rime of the Ancient Mariner (which was their longest song from 1984 to 2015) neither the many songs longer than To Tame a Land itself that you can find on the second half of their discography were written yet.

So yes, there are many songs between 1984 and 2015 that are longer than To Tame a Land, but none of those can claim to have been, at a point, the longest EVER Iron Maiden song. To Tame Land however for a year was IM's longest song.

[Zook]

Right. I read that last sentence of the useless trivia post wrong. Rime is still longer than the 10+ minute songs between it and Clouds.

[MirrorMask]

Oh, damn. Horrible news related to the Maiden camp. Bruce Dickinson's (estranged) wife, Paddy, died in what has been reported as a tragic accident at home. Bummer news 

[wolfking]

Oh, damn. Horrible news related to the Maiden camp. Bruce Dickinson's (estranged) wife, Paddy, died in what has been reported as a tragic accident at home. Bummer news 

Oh shit, that's horrible. 

[Stadler]

WOW, that is a shock.   Huh. 

[Samsara]

That's sad. Condolences to Bruce and his fam.

Talking about the music, I decided to do a deep dive on the Bruce-fronted Maiden material (I'm already a huge fan, but never really did any sort of ranking/list). It's amazing how much quality is there. Every record, there's at least two or three tunes that would make a Best Of compilation of mine.

My least favorite of the Bruce-fronted Maiden are probably No Prayer/Fear of the Dark/The Final Frontier. But I do love songs from all three. Just from a full album listening experience.

My FAVORITE ones are probably The Number of the Beast/Piece of Mind/Brave New World.

My favorite one-two punch opening tracks, however, are on Somewhere in Time: "Caught Somewhere in Time" and "Wasted Years." That duo just SLIGHTLY beats out "Aces High" and "2 Minutes to Midnight" on Powerslave.

I think the most underrated record from Bruce-led Maiden is A Matter of Life and Death. It's really a deep record, both musically and conceptually, and I love that one.

Anyway, random Tuesday thoughts...

[TAC]

Not sure AMOLAD is underrated. Isn't it widely regarded as the Reunion Era's seminal album?



Also, I love TFF. I think it's amazing.

I'm also a big fan of Fear Of The Dark. I feel it's 8 songs deep, and suffers from being their first album in the CD age. Easily 2-4 songs too many.


My one two opening punch would go to Moonchild/Infinite Dreams, although Caught Somewhere In Time is a Top 5 Maiden song for me.

[The Walrus]

Not sure AMOLAD is underrated. Isn't it widely regarded as the Reunion Era's seminal album?

It is? I always thought that album was a slog, but better than The Final Frontier. I've always pegged Brave New World as the seminal reunion album.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

That's so sad!

On another note: Chris Dale the former bassist on the Skunkworks session has uploaded demos and rehearsal from the pre-production.

Pre-Production:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4ZbcTy49l4&list=PLyF2YGg03yRVKhMPvmch184DKdIg-Ik5l&index=2&t=0s

Demo tapes:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyF2YGg03yRXRDjkPXHK9TXmJSat1_Qok

FALLING (Unreleased song)

Really cool stuff actually! 

[TAC]

Not sure AMOLAD is underrated. Isn't it widely regarded as the Reunion Era's seminal album?

It is? I always thought that album was a slog, but better than The Final Frontier. I've always pegged Brave New World as the seminal reunion album.

You thought it was a slog, but I think most people rank it #1.

[Indiscipline]

My top one-two opening punch : Where Eagles Dare / Revelations

[The Walrus]

Not sure AMOLAD is underrated. Isn't it widely regarded as the Reunion Era's seminal album?

It is? I always thought that album was a slog, but better than The Final Frontier. I've always pegged Brave New World as the seminal reunion album.

You thought it was a slog, but I think most people rank it #1.

Er, okay? I'm just saying I haven't seen many people, in the big picture, put AMOLAD as the "#1/seminal reunion album." It just seems to be Brave New World from my perspective (and a take that I agree with). I do think it's a slog, but that's not my basis for thinking it isn't the seminal album. Neither of us have proof to back it up. What you think holds no more weight than what I think unless we do a poll of every Maiden fan on the planet. Just based on my experience over the last 14 years since AMOLAD came out I've seen more praise for BNW post-reunion than AMOLAD.

[Samsara]

My top one-two opening punch : Where Eagles Dare / Revelations

That's third for me. Honestly, if it would have went Where Eagles Dare/Flight of Icarus, that would have been my #1.

[TAC]

Not sure AMOLAD is underrated. Isn't it widely regarded as the Reunion Era's seminal album?

It is? I always thought that album was a slog, but better than The Final Frontier. I've always pegged Brave New World as the seminal reunion album.

You thought it was a slog, but I think most people rank it #1.

Er, okay? I'm just saying I haven't seen many people, in the big picture, put AMOLAD as the "#1/seminal reunion album." It just seems to be Brave New World from my perspective (and a take that I agree with). I do think it's a slog, but that's not my basis for thinking it isn't the seminal album. Neither of us have proof to back it up. What you think holds no more weight than what I think unless we do a poll of every Maiden fan on the planet. Just based on my experience over the last 14 years since AMOLAD came out I've seen more praise for BNW post-reunion than AMOLAD.

DTF speaks, and we're both right!

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=49382.0


I've been looking for something similar on Maidenfans..

[The Walrus]

Well, if we're using DTF as the metric, that's an incredibly small pool to pick from. I'm just going by what I've read on forums, chat rooms, comments, friends, people at concerts and festivals throughout my life and I still have no idea what the consensus is other than what I can hazard a guess at. I've only been posting here for a few years. 

[425]

I'm accustomed to seeing BNW and AMOLAD ranked far out ahead of the other three reunion albums. I think BNW has a broader appeal (more people rank it as their favorite reunion album), but AMOLAD perhaps has a stronger appeal (the people who love it tend to rank it higher in the overall discography than those who prefer BNW).

In other words, it seems that some people think the reunion era is good but can't touch the 1982-88 material, and those people seem to prefer BNW out of all the reunion albums. Other people rank the reunion era almost as high or actually as high as the 1982-88 material, and those fans tend to prefer AMOLAD.

Personally, I would take TFF out of all 16 albums. But I'd put AMOLAD second. BNW is very good, but I think still shows some rough edges. Songwriting-wise, I contend it's more similar to Virtual XI than to Dance of Death, and it has many of the songwriting flaws VXI has.

[TAC]

Well, if we're using DTF as the metric, that's an incredibly small pool to pick from. I'm just going by what I've read on forums, chat rooms, comments, friends, people at concerts and festivals throughout my life and I still have no idea what the consensus is other than what I can hazard a guess at. I've only been posting here for a few years. 

Well, my main point is that I don't think AMOLAD is underrated.


Especially by fans of Brave New World.

[The Walrus]

It's really good for memorizing lyrics, at least.

out of the darkness brighter than a thousand suns
out of the darkness brighter than a thousand suns
out of the darkness brighter than a thousand suns
out of the darkness brighter than a thousand suns
out of the darkness brighter than a thousand suns
out of the darkness brighter than a thousand suns
out of the darkness brighter than a thousand suns
out of the darkness brighter than a thousand suns

[425]

I mean, I don't think you can come at AMOLAD for being repetitive while praising BNW on the other hand.

your time will come your time will come your time will come your time will come your time will come
a brave new world in a brave new world a brave new world in a brave new world in a brave new world a brave new world
we're blood brothers we're blood brothers we're blood brothers we're blood brothers we're blood brothers we're blood brothers
show them no fear show them no pain show them no fear show them no pain show them no fear show them no pain
the dream is true the dream is true the dream is true the dream is true the dream is true the dream is true

[The Walrus]

Well, those are the better songs.

Maiden's repetition goes back to the 80s, but I really didn't notice it until AMOLAD, personally.

[Indiscipline]

I'm accustomed to seeing BNW and AMOLAD ranked far out ahead of the other three reunion albums. I think BNW has a broader appeal (more people rank it as their favorite reunion album), but AMOLAD perhaps has a stronger appeal (the people who love it tend to rank it higher in the overall discography than those who prefer BNW).

In other words, it seems that some people think the reunion era is good but can't touch the 1982-88 material, and those people seem to prefer BNW out of all the reunion albums. Other people rank the reunion era almost as high or actually as high as the 1982-88 material, and those fans tend to prefer AMOLAD.

Personally, I would take TFF out of all 16 albums. But I'd put AMOLAD second. BNW is very good, but I think still shows some rough edges. Songwriting-wise, I contend it's more similar to Virtual XI than to Dance of Death, and it has many of the songwriting flaws VXI has.

That's me, if you switch "good" with "lackluster", and "1982 - 88" with "1980-92 being extremely generous with No Prayer"

[ProfessorPeart]

Not sure AMOLAD is underrated. Isn't it widely regarded as the Reunion Era's seminal album?

It is? I always thought that album was a slog, but better than The Final Frontier. I've always pegged Brave New World as the seminal reunion album.

I've got your back. Brave New World is the best of the reunion albums. I saw the AMOLAD tour and it was fairly disappointing. Probably the best seats I have ever had for a Maiden show and they play the whole album and like 2 or 3 encore songs which are the ones they always play. Sheesh.

[425]

Well, those are the better songs.

Maiden's repetition goes back to the 80s, but I really didn't notice it until AMOLAD, personally.

I mean, I can't argue with what your personal experience was, but AMOLAD is objectively less repetitive than BNW, having only three songs that repeat the same line over and over, vs. five on BNW.

[cramx3]

Not sure AMOLAD is underrated. Isn't it widely regarded as the Reunion Era's seminal album?

It is? I always thought that album was a slog, but better than The Final Frontier. I've always pegged Brave New World as the seminal reunion album.

I've got your back. Brave New World is the best of the reunion albums. I saw the AMOLAD tour and it was fairly disappointing. Probably the best seats I have ever had for a Maiden show and they play the whole album and like 2 or 3 encore songs which are the ones they always play. Sheesh.

To me, that's a sign... of something.  IM have never performed an album live like that or even every song from an album live (besides the first two I think) I think IM themselves think that may be one of their best albums, but I do believe the general IM fanbase does not agree wtih that as I witnessed many people very upset when IM played the whole album live. 

For some reason, I feel The Book of Souls got a much better overall response from the general fanbase than AMOLAD did or does.

[The Walrus]

Well, those are the better songs.

Maiden's repetition goes back to the 80s, but I really didn't notice it until AMOLAD, personally.

I mean, I can't argue with what your personal experience was, but AMOLAD is objectively less repetitive than BNW, having only three songs that repeat the same line over and over, vs. five on BNW.

I'm being slightly hyperbolic in my assessment of Maiden and AMOLAD; but I mock AMOLAD's repetition because, again, I think BNW is a far superior record. A good record (or song, or hook, whatever it is) can justify excessive repetition; repetition itself is what helps make music memorable. Doesn't always work though. Gates of Tomorrow is a perfect example imo

@PP: 

[425]

I'm being slightly hyperbolic in my assessment of Maiden and AMOLAD; but I mock AMOLAD's repetition because, again, I think BNW is a far superior record. A good record (or song, or hook, whatever it is) can justify excessive repetition; repetition itself is what helps make music memorable. Doesn't always work though. Gates of Tomorrow is a perfect example imo

I mean, I get it to an extent, but it seems sort of like talking about the mote in the eye of one album when there's a beam in the eye of the one you're praising over it.


Re: The AMOLAD tour, I *think* that the AMOLAD setlist was far better received outside of the US than within. Notice that on the TFF tour, they had a completely different setlist for the US where they cut out a lot of the new material. At least in the band's eyes, the reunion era has been received far more negatively in the US than it has elsewhere.

[The Walrus]

I'm being slightly hyperbolic in my assessment of Maiden and AMOLAD; but I mock AMOLAD's repetition because, again, I think BNW is a far superior record. A good record (or song, or hook, whatever it is) can justify excessive repetition; repetition itself is what helps make music memorable. Doesn't always work though. Gates of Tomorrow is a perfect example imo

I mean, I get it to an extent, but it seems sort of like talking about the mote in the eye of one album when there's a beam in the eye of the one you're praising over it.

With all due respect, I don't understand what that means. I think my explanation makes perfect sense; it's all subjective, I find the music on BNW far better than AMOLAD, and therefore the repetition of the melodies and hooks on BNW works for me much better.

I'd put The Book of Souls as my #2 reunion era record if the production was better. Lord, that album sounds like ass (but the music sounds good, if you catch my drift).

[425]

It's a proverb, meaning it's not wise to criticize a small flaw in one thing while (in this case) praising something else that has a far worse version of the same flaw.

To be clear, I have no problem with you preferring BNW over AMOLAD, but it just seems weird to make that specific point of comparison.

Anyway, I think I now understand that your position is that repetition like that is not a flaw as such, only a flaw when the repeated melody is not good? I would disagree with that, and would rate the repetition as a flaw even when it's a repeated part that I really like, such as the second chorus to For the Greater Good of God. But if I've gotten your view right this time, I understand.

Re: Book of Souls and production, honestly, I don't like the production on any of the reunion albums. BNW is fine, I suppose, but the other four are rather poorly done. Ideally, Steve would back off production, bring in someone other than Shirley, and let a studio album actually sound good for the first time since 1992, but I doubt will ever happen.

[The Walrus]

It's a proverb, meaning it's not wise to criticize a small flaw in one thing while (in this case) praising something else that has a far worse version of the same flaw.

To be clear, I have no problem with you preferring BNW over AMOLAD, but it just seems weird to make that specific point of comparison.

Anyway, I think I now understand that your position is that repetition like that is not a flaw as such, only a flaw when the repeated melody is not good? I would disagree with that, and would rate the repetition as a flaw even when it's a repeated part that I really like, such as the second chorus to For the Greater Good of God. But if I've gotten your view right this time, I understand.

But there's the rub. I don't think it's a 'small flaw.' It is important to me. Some people don't like pop music because it's very repetitive, but I think it is a strength of that style of music which is why I enjoy so much pop music, I enjoy good musical ideas getting due repetition. There's also a reason I don't listen to Gates of Tomorrow, or Sun and Steel, or Brighter Than A Thousand Suns. Excessive repetition of a melody I find annoying is not a small flaw to me. It's a huge factor in me not enjoying something. How is that weird? It's no weirder than criticizing the production of Book of Souls, or the snare on St. Anger, or how weird Bruce sounds on The X factor 

I never said repetition is a flaw in itself. Repetition is part of what attracts humans to music. I said repetition of a musical idea I don't like factors into me not liking a song, but if it's a musical idea I enjoy, then I am going to want to hear it more often. Repetition is not inherently good or bad, it is merely one more element of music that a musician chooses to use however they wish.

[425]

Right, so as I said last post, I think I misunderstood you at first as saying "it is bad because it is too repetitive" instead of "it is bad because it repeats something I don't like."

Because that's different from my perspective. I think that every one of those songs, from Seventh Son of a Seventh Son to Fear of the Dark to The Wicker Man to For the Greater Good of God would be improved by cutting the repetitions in half. And I think the repeated part in each of those songs is good (unlike Gates of Tomorrow).

[The Walrus]

Yeah, that's it. And I agree, there is a lot of trimming that could be done to a great number of Maiden songs. There's definitely a tendency to repeat ideas a bit too often for their own good. I think that's a problem with Empire of the Clouds too, honestly. Several minutes of that could be cut because it's just recycling the same musical lines. Shame because it's a brilliant song otherwise imo.

[425]

I agree regarding Empire of the Clouds. I'm really glad they decided to go for a long epic like that, but I think it was only a partial success in part for that reason.