The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls

[Indiscipline]

If we're talking production, despite not being one of my favourite IM albums, I'm tempted to say Fear of the Dark.

[425]

I'm part of that minority that doesn't get the Killers fascination at all. Outside of a few songs (Murders, Wrathchild, title track), it kind of just feels like outtakes from the debut. I'd only put it ahead of Fear of the Dark, probably.

I don't say this to be snarky, but to explain that fascination; while I like the sound of the first album in a "it's a first album" sort of way (same as the first Twisted Sister and Motley Crue albums) I always view the FIRST album as the demos for the KILLERS.  I think the elements of the first album were honed and brought to maturity on the second.   There's nothing as epic as "Phantom Of The Opera", but everything else is there.  And "Another Life" is a standout (that was written around the time of the material on the first album, and was played live before Killers was recorded, if memory serves.)

Don't worry, I didn't take it as snarky. I suppose the "demo for Killers" versus "leftovers from the debut" are kind of natural perspectives depending on which album a person happens to prefer.

I will concede that Killers has one thing going for it: Adrian Smith. But on the whole, I much prefer the epic side of Iron Maiden to the rough, rock side, so the debut is the clear winner for me, between Phantom of the Opera and Remember Tomorrow.


On the topic of production, I think the Martin Birch albums are excellent in that regard, but really only the Martin Birch albums. The debut is only okay, the Blaze-era albums are terribly produced, and the Shirley albums range from adequate (BNW) to poor (DoD).

[MirrorMask]

I'm on Iron Maiden > Killers camp as well.

The debut was not a band starting out. It was the culmination of 4 years of playing, doing early tours, Steve Harris having to find members who could fit the vision he had, learning the craft, going through the grind. There was no "put your song on YouTube and it becomes a hit" back then, they had to do the work, the gigs, the word of mouth, taking around the cassettes, all of that. The debut album was four years in the making, and it was nearly a greatest hits of all the songs that came to be in that period of time. Killers had to be done in a much shorter time frame, and while there's nothing specifically bad on it (hey, Adrian Smith is on there, for starters), I don't think it holds up to the predecessor. Also, Paul Di'Anno could take the band any further and it was the right to make a change, and boy what a change it was.

[Podaar]

I am a huge Killers fan, but I like Iron Maiden nearly as well. As to the question of what has held up, for me it's Seventh Son.

[max_security]

I like Killers over ( self titled ). Murders In The Rue Morgue and Killers are two of my favorite tracks. IM has Phantom Of The Opera and nothing else really significant.

Killers on it's own was such a cool album at the time ( speaking from my experience in the Washington , DC area in the early 1980's ). Any aspiring metal musician at the time was interested about  this album. I think that the guitar parts being interesting and thought out just appealed to young musicians at the time. And Clive Burr was like the Mike Portnoy of modern times. Every drummer I knew wanted to play these songs ( Wrathchild , Killers , Rue Morgue ). Usually the rest of the band was more able to pull of some tunes from Priest British Steel ( Living After - Breaking Law were popular high school metal band tunes ). But while jamming on the Priest tunes everyone was wishing they could play the tunes from Killers.   

[wolfking]

Speaking of 80’s Maiden, the band also did awesome covers and, the majority of them, much close to the original versions. Today I listened to That Girl and realised I never heard FM’s original version. Holy s..., Maiden totally rearranged the song, in a great way!

Such a unique story behind that song with both bands performing it.  I think I prefer FM's version though.

Reach Out is an amazing song too.

[Dream Team]

I think the obvious answer here (assuming I understand the question correctly) is The X Factor. That was not a popular album when it came out, and I imagine at the time many people perceived it as a blip on the band's fade into obscurity. The two albums before it were a clear step down from the 80s material, Bruce was gone, Adrian had been gone, the production was flat and the new singer was a bit of an odd fit.

But I think when you look back at The X Factor 25 years on, I think it's the album you have to point out as the beginning of the prog Iron Maiden of the reunion era, and when you listen to it without worrying that you'll never hear the band with Bruce and Adrian again, or that all their future music will forever be this dark and depressing, there is actually a ton of great material on there.

Boring slow intro and outro on every song does not necessarily = proggy.

[emtee]

I am a huge Killers fan, but I like Iron Maiden nearly as well. As to the question of what has held up, for me it's Seventh Son.

That's my choice as well.

[Stadler]

I'm on Iron Maiden > Killers camp as well.

The debut was not a band starting out. It was the culmination of 4 years of playing, doing early tours, Steve Harris having to find members who could fit the vision he had, learning the craft, going through the grind. There was no "put your song on YouTube and it becomes a hit" back then, they had to do the work, the gigs, the word of mouth, taking around the cassettes, all of that. The debut album was four years in the making, and it was nearly a greatest hits of all the songs that came to be in that period of time. Killers had to be done in a much shorter time frame, and while there's nothing specifically bad on it (hey, Adrian Smith is on there, for starters), I don't think it holds up to the predecessor. Also, Paul Di'Anno could take the band any further and it was the right to make a change, and boy what a change it was.

I think you're right about the songs, but I don't think you're right in the way that, say, Boston or Appetite For Destruction are first albums.   They may have honed the songs, but they were still learning the ropes in translating that live energy to disk.  I DO actually view the first album as a rough rock record (to steal 425's phrasing).  They weren't using THEIR producer, they were using the guy from the record company, and remember, the record company was still trying to get them to cut their hair and be more "punk".   That first record is, musically, almost a punk record.  I think the second album was a way to get not just the songs (many of which had as much stage time as some of the ones on the first record) right but also the "Maiden sound". 

By way of example, there's far less difference between the Soundhouse Tapes/Metal For Muthas versions of "Iron Maiden", "Prowler" and "Sanctuary" and the versions on the first album*, and "Wrathschild" and the version that appears on the second album.


* Yes, I know "Sanctuary" was originally a single and only later tacked on to the US and world versions of the record.  I have that original 12" single with Maggie on the cover.

[pg1067]

I like Killers over ( self titled ). Murders In The Rue Morgue and Killers are two of my favorite tracks. IM has Phantom Of The Opera and nothing else really significant.

Say what?!

I think, on the whole, I also like Killers over the debut, but the debut is a FANTASTIC album.  For me, the only track I skip is Strange World.  Even Running Free is ok because it's short (the bloated, audience participation live version got real old real fast).  To say that an album that has 4 of the band's 13 most played live songs (and 3 of the top 10, none of which are Phantom) has "nothing else really significant" beyond Phantom is just baffling.

[Indiscipline]

I like Killers over ( self titled ). Murders In The Rue Morgue and Killers are two of my favorite tracks. IM has Phantom Of The Opera and nothing else really significant.

Say what?!

I think, on the whole, I also like Killers over the debut, but the debut is a FANTASTIC album.  For me, the only track I skip is Strange World.  Even Running Free is ok because it's short (the bloated, audience participation live version got real old real fast).  To say that an album that has 4 of the band's 13 most played live songs (and 3 of the top 10, none of which are Phantom) has "nothing else really significant" beyond Phantom is just baffling.

Not arguing, but just pointing out how tastes are an amazing thing. I like the debut over Killers because, among other factors, it has Strange World 

[max_security]

I like Killers over ( self titled ). Murders In The Rue Morgue and Killers are two of my favorite tracks. IM has Phantom Of The Opera and nothing else really significant.

Say what?!

I think, on the whole, I also like Killers over the debut, but the debut is a FANTASTIC album.  For me, the only track I skip is Strange World.  Even Running Free is ok because it's short (the bloated, audience participation live version got real old real fast).  To say that an album that has 4 of the band's 13 most played live songs (and 3 of the top 10, none of which are Phantom) has "nothing else really significant" beyond Phantom is just baffling.

Phantom is the only song on that album that I would dig through a box of records to listen to. Not that the other tunes are bad , just not favorites of mine regarding the songs from the first two albums. If I could write a set list for them I think I would still close the second encore with  IM so there's 1 more I guess.

[devieira73]

Speaking of 80’s Maiden, the band also did awesome covers and, the majority of them, much close to the original versions. Today I listened to That Girl and realised I never heard FM’s original version. Holy s..., Maiden totally rearranged the song, in a great way!

Such a unique story behind that song with both bands performing it.  I think I prefer FM's version though.

Reach Out is an amazing song too.

I love all B-sides from SiT...even Sheriff, no matter it is kind of a goofy song.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

To Tame A Land - Iron Maiden (Lockdown session with Richie Faulkner)

Pretty cool 

[pg1067]

To Tame A Land - Iron Maiden (Lockdown session with Richie Faulkner)

Pretty cool 

It's cool (and it's my #1 Maiden song of all time), but the bass is inaudible for most of it.  I'd rather watch a full band cover or just listen to the original.

It's criminal that this song hasn't been played live since 1983.

I love all B-sides from SiT...even Sheriff, no matter it is kind of a goofy song.

Sheriff is AWESOME!!

[RodrigoAltaf]

To Tame A Land - Iron Maiden (Lockdown session with Richie Faulkner)

Pretty cool 

It's cool (and it's my #1 Maiden song of all time), but the bass is inaudible for most of it.  I'd rather watch a full band cover or just listen to the original.

It's criminal that this song hasn't been played live since 1983.

I love all B-sides from SiT...even Sheriff, no matter it is kind of a goofy song.

Sheriff is AWESOME!!

Yeah, To Tame a Land is an absolute CLASSIC...too bad they got into a disagreement with Frank Herbert and decided not to play it after the Piece of Mind tour.

Didn't Richie do also a version of Alexander the Great? I can't find the link for it!!!!

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

To Tame A Land - Iron Maiden (Lockdown session with Richie Faulkner)

Pretty cool 

It's cool (and it's my #1 Maiden song of all time), but the bass is inaudible for most of it.  I'd rather watch a full band cover or just listen to the original.

It's criminal that this song hasn't been played live since 1983.

I love all B-sides from SiT...even Sheriff, no matter it is kind of a goofy song.

Sheriff is AWESOME!!

Yeah, To Tame a Land is an absolute CLASSIC...too bad they got into a disagreement with Frank Herbert and decided not to play it after the Piece of Mind tour.

Didn't Richie do also a version of Alexander the Great? I can't find the link for it!!!!

Wait, is that the reason? From what i've read they asked Frank for permission to name a song after Dune but he declined so they named it To Tame A Land instead so why wouldn't they play it then? Maybe i'm missing some facts.

I agree though, it's crazy they haven't played it since. It's funny, do Maiden actually realise how much excitment and joy they would give to the fans if they played some of those rare songs live.

[DoctorAction]

If I had to take one IM album to a desert island it would probably be Killers. Front to back bursting with energy, the sound is fantastic, the leads, drums, riffs, vocals are all incredible. There's literally nothing I don't love on it. I bought the albums in chronological order (just after SIT was released) and loved the first one but the power of Killers blew me away. Everything just feels locked in and purposeful.

The debut means a lot to me too but Running Free, Charlotte and Iron Maiden I'd be happy to never hear again. And the sound is poopy. I really like the debut cover art and was really annoyed that they messed with it in several ways over the years.

[pg1067]

Wait, is that the reason? From what i've read they asked Frank for permission to name a song after Dune but he declined so they named it To Tame A Land instead so why wouldn't they play it then? Maybe i'm missing some facts.

I agree though, it's crazy they haven't played it since. It's funny, do Maiden actually realise how much excitment and joy they would give to the fans if they played some of those rare songs live.

Yeah...the story about Herbert threatening litigation if they called the song "Dune" is pretty well-known, but I've never heard anything to the effect that they haven't played it live since the POM tour for the same reason.  The only way that would make sense would be if there was some sort of threat that led to an agreement with Herbert that either prohibited it from being played live or which would give Herbert royalties if they did play it.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Wait, is that the reason? From what i've read they asked Frank for permission to name a song after Dune but he declined so they named it To Tame A Land instead so why wouldn't they play it then? Maybe i'm missing some facts.

I agree though, it's crazy they haven't played it since. It's funny, do Maiden actually realise how much excitment and joy they would give to the fans if they played some of those rare songs live.

Yeah...the story about Herbert threatening litigation if they called the song "Dune" is pretty well-known, but I've never heard anything to the effect that they haven't played it live since the POM tour for the same reason.  The only way that would make sense would be if there was some sort of threat that led to an agreement with Herbert that either prohibited it from being played live or which would give Herbert royalties if they did play it.

Every album after that had at least one VERY long song, so they probably chose to put it to rest.

[425]

Rime alone has eaten up a lot of setlist space over the years. It kept Alexander the Great off the Somewhere in Time tour setlist.

[wolfking]

I think they retired TTAL because Bruce could never really perform the middle section.  That's just my opinion.

[RodrigoAltaf]

I think they retired TTAL because Bruce could never really perform the middle section.  That's just my opinion.

That could just as well be the case. This part right here has one of the highest notes he ever sang:

And when the time
For judgement's at hand
Don't fret he's strong
And he'll make a stand
Against evil and fire
That spreads through the land
He has the power
To make it all end

[MirrorMask]

For the record I consider To Tame a Land a far better song than Alex the Great, but it was played live at least in one tour, so fans can't hold on to it with the "it was never played live, we need to hear it played live" mantra.

Also, I'm quite sure that the author's involvement with the song was not allowing it to be called Dune, and that's it. They simply never played it live anymore because they had other epic songs (heck, the album after that had Rime has it has been pointed out), and for lenghty classic songs they already had Hallowed Be Thy Name and Phantom of the Opera, which were the go-to 7 minutes songs for their setlist of the '80s.

And as Rodrigo pointed out, I'm sure Bruce didn't exactly threaten to leave the band if he was not allowed to choke on himself singing the insanely high final stanza of the song, night after night.

[wolfking]

I think they retired TTAL because Bruce could never really perform the middle section.  That's just my opinion.

That could just as well be the case. This part right here has one of the highest notes he ever sang:

And when the time
For judgement's at hand
Don't fret he's strong
And he'll make a stand
Against evil and fire
That spreads through the land
He has the power
To make it all end

Did he ever hit the climax note?  What I've heard from boots he always goes down on the word 'end'.

[Mladen]

I think some other epics from the albums around the time were better received by the fanbase. Songs like Hallowed, Mariner and Seventh son are more beloved and therefore managed to find their way back to the set list once or twice.

Not to mention that the band always manages to play a song or two from Piece of mind on every tour, so when they've already got that album covered, no reason to add yet another song from it.

[MirrorMask]

Useless trivia moment: To Tame a Land is one of the only four songs to have held the "Longest Iron Maiden song" title.

Phantom of the Opera was the first, for the sole reason of being the longest song on the only album released at the time - the debut.

Hallowed is seconds shorter, and To Tame a Land is seconds longer, so To Tame a Land is the second song to claim the "Longest song" title and the first with merit, with something else to compare to.

Then obviously a year after came Rime of the Ancient Mariner, which settled the dispute once and for alll.... well, for 31 years, from 1984 until 2015 when Empire of the Clouds was released.

[emtee]

When X-factor came out I was in a different place musically. Yesterday, for the 1st time ever, I listened to the album. Not sure what to think. Seemed kinda boring but maybe it requires more spins.

[DTA]

I just cannot get into Blaze's voice. It sounds so out of place to me in Maiden's music and makes those two albums pretty much unlistenable. I can tell there's great ideas on X Factor (and Virtual XI to a lesser extent) but they will never be regular plays for me.

[DoctorAction]

Sign Of The Cross and Man On The Edge are the only winners for me on that one. Never got into it.

I loved Blaze when he was in Wolfsbane and was sad for him that it didn't work out but it wasn't quite right.

[Northern Lion]

I just cannot get into Blaze's voice. It sounds so out of place to me in Maiden's music and makes those two albums pretty much unlistenable. I can tell there's great ideas on X Factor (and Virtual XI to a lesser extent) but they will never be regular plays for me.

I feel the same.  I perhaps take it a little too far though, as I don't listen to any Maiden album that doesn't have Bruce Dickenson as vocals.

[Phoenix87x]

I tried listening to the blaze stuff a couple times. Could never get into it

[Indiscipline]

Funny, since we were talking about the debut and Killers, I always thought Blaze would have been great on those albums.

[MirrorMask]

Funny, since we were talking about the debut and Killers, I always thought Blaze would have been great on those albums.

Surely the X Factor and Virtual XI tours were a missed opportunity to drop some Bruce classics and bring back some Di'Anno tunes.

Prowler instead of The Trooper, Running Free as a classic song to close the concert, and Killers or Phantom of the Opera in place of The Evil that Men Do, stuff like that.

[pg1067]

Wait, is that the reason? From what i've read they asked Frank for permission to name a song after Dune but he declined so they named it To Tame A Land instead so why wouldn't they play it then? Maybe i'm missing some facts.

I agree though, it's crazy they haven't played it since. It's funny, do Maiden actually realise how much excitment and joy they would give to the fans if they played some of those rare songs live.

Yeah...the story about Herbert threatening litigation if they called the song "Dune" is pretty well-known, but I've never heard anything to the effect that they haven't played it live since the POM tour for the same reason.  The only way that would make sense would be if there was some sort of threat that led to an agreement with Herbert that either prohibited it from being played live or which would give Herbert royalties if they did play it.

Every album after that had at least one VERY long song, so they probably chose to put it to rest.

If that was the thought process, then why didn't Hallowed Be Thy Name or Phantom of the Opera disappear forever?  And what exactly was the "VERY long song" on No Prayer for the Dying?

Useless trivia moment: To Tame a Land is one of the only four five songs to have held the "Longest Iron Maiden song" title.

Phantom of the Opera was the first, for the sole reason of being the longest song on the only album released at the time - the debut.

Hallowed is seconds shorter longer, and To Tame a Land is seconds longer, so To Tame a Land is the second third song to claim the "Longest song" title and the first second with merit, with something else to compare to.

Then obviously a year after came Rime of the Ancient Mariner, which settled the dispute once and for alll.... well, for 31 years, from 1984 until 2015 when Empire of the Clouds was released.

ftfy

Phantom - 7:02
Hallowed - 7:08
TTAL - 7:26
Rime - 13:45
Empire - 18:01