Author Topic: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls  (Read 572556 times)

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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2450 on: March 02, 2017, 05:19:40 AM »
I think an unintended help came from the "Maiden are satanic worshippers" dudes, lot of free publicity  :lol

Seriously, about that: while I was a kid I was never the "screw you school, screw you parents, I'm a metalhead, I'm evil, groarrr" kind of teenager, but I was mildly amused that topics that were not offensive at all to me (evil stuff, satanism etc), were causing such a riot among fundamentalists.

However, growing up, I realize that the whole Number of the Beast situation was just an exagerated misunderstanding of the lyrics.

Aside from the explanation that it was all a dream by Steve Harris, the lyrics point blank tell "This can't go on, I must inform the law". It's a straight up story of someone stumbling across a satanic rite and *wanting to make it stop*, but yet saying "6, 66, the number of the beast"was enough to paint them as blood drinking, goats-sacrificing satanists.

With Black Sabbath, I could get it. Back in the day where all songs were about peace and love, these guys from Birmingham sing about Satan literally appearing. But to go crazy over a song about seeing a satanic rite and being afraid of it....????
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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2451 on: March 02, 2017, 06:23:23 AM »
Have you ever seen the videoclip for this song? Its hillarious. Whoever thought of that concept...
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2452 on: March 02, 2017, 08:13:04 AM »
For sure I have seen it, but I simply forgot what it's all about, I will have to watch it again.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2453 on: March 02, 2017, 08:39:28 AM »
I think an unintended help came from the "Maiden are satanic worshippers" dudes, lot of free publicity  :lol

Seriously, about that: while I was a kid I was never the "screw you school, screw you parents, I'm a metalhead, I'm evil, groarrr" kind of teenager, but I was mildly amused that topics that were not offensive at all to me (evil stuff, satanism etc), were causing such a riot among fundamentalists.

However, growing up, I realize that the whole Number of the Beast situation was just an exagerated misunderstanding of the lyrics.

Aside from the explanation that it was all a dream by Steve Harris, the lyrics point blank tell "This can't go on, I must inform the law". It's a straight up story of someone stumbling across a satanic rite and *wanting to make it stop*, but yet saying "6, 66, the number of the beast"was enough to paint them as blood drinking, goats-sacrificing satanists.

With Black Sabbath, I could get it. Back in the day where all songs were about peace and love, these guys from Birmingham sing about Satan literally appearing. But to go crazy over a song about seeing a satanic rite and being afraid of it....????

Well, sure.  But the thing is, while they disavowed being Satanists, they at the same time played up the Satanic imagery in their album artwork, their stage props, and their public image.  And there were able to capitalize on that.  And that's fine.  Personally, I wasn't comfortable with it at the time.  But that's fine.  It isn't exactly uncommon for a band to intentionally market themselves as something they are not because it is popular.  Although the Maiden guys publicly disavowed being Satanists, and the really committed fans who took time to actually study the lyrics knew that, the band absolutely played it up to gain exposure, and they DID garner a ton of fans who thought (and still do) of the album/song as evil.
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2454 on: March 02, 2017, 09:00:12 AM »
Stage props ok, I remember the devil(s) at the borders of the stage during the tour.

But album cover and public image? the cover album has Eddie being the real puppet master, so in a sense they say Eddie is stronger than the devil, and I can't really recall from footage and interviews of the era (I was too young to remember, I  was 3  :biggrin: ) them posing or acting to pump up the satanic angle...
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Offline Mosh

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2455 on: March 02, 2017, 09:22:27 AM »
Yea that stuff only lasted for the one album and tour. By 1983 they moved on to other topics and dropped the satanic angle completely.
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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2456 on: March 02, 2017, 11:18:26 AM »
Got some new headphones and listened to the live version of Phantom of the Opera from Somewhere Back in Time. Man does that song kick ass, just an amazing song for a band's debut album.  :omg:

Offline PowerSlave

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2457 on: March 02, 2017, 12:55:11 PM »
Yea that stuff only lasted for the one album and tour. By 1983 they moved on to other topics and dropped the satanic angle completely.

They did maintain the religious angle, though. Of course you have Revelations on POM, then an argument could be made that the song Powerslave could come from a religious angle. Heaven Can Wait on SiT, and the entire 7th son album.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2458 on: March 02, 2017, 01:15:34 PM »
Yea that stuff only lasted for the one album and tour. By 1983 they moved on to other topics and dropped the satanic angle completely.

They did maintain the religious angle, though. Of course you have Revelations on POM, then an argument could be made that the song Powerslave could come from a religious angle. Heaven Can Wait on SiT, and the entire 7th son album.
Revelations is not religious.  I mean, it has allusions to pagan religion in the lyrics, but isn't really a religious song in any way.

Heaven can wait is arguably anti-religion.

And I'm not sure how 7th Son is "religious."  It is a concept album about a sorcerer.  How is that religious?  :lol
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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2459 on: March 02, 2017, 01:30:20 PM »
Yea that stuff only lasted for the one album and tour. By 1983 they moved on to other topics and dropped the satanic angle completely.

They did maintain the religious angle, though. Of course you have Revelations on POM, then an argument could be made that the song Powerslave could come from a religious angle. Heaven Can Wait on SiT, and the entire 7th son album.
Revelations is not religious.  I mean, it has allusions to pagan religion in the lyrics, but isn't really a religious song in any way.

Heaven can wait is arguably anti-religion.

And I'm not sure how 7th Son is "religious."  It is a concept album about a sorcerer.  How is that religious?  :lol

C'mon bosk, sorcerers believe in a higher power that gives them magic. Get with the fantasy knowledge! Dragonlance: Dragons of Autumn Twilight. Get on it.  :lol
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2460 on: March 02, 2017, 01:34:00 PM »
Okay, but I'm not sure that writing what is obviously a fantasy/sci-fi story that contains a belief in a higher power is "religious" in the sense that PowerSlave meant.
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2461 on: March 02, 2017, 01:34:23 PM »
Yea that stuff only lasted for the one album and tour. By 1983 they moved on to other topics and dropped the satanic angle completely.

They did maintain the religious angle, though. Of course you have Revelations on POM, then an argument could be made that the song Powerslave could come from a religious angle. Heaven Can Wait on SiT, and the entire 7th son album.
Revelations is not religious.  I mean, it has allusions to pagan religion in the lyrics, but isn't really a religious song in any way.

Heaven can wait is arguably anti-religion.

And I'm not sure how 7th Son is "religious."  It is a concept album about a sorcerer.  How is that religious?  :lol

I disagree. Revelations, in my opinion, greatly relied on the imagery of the lyrics being apocolyptic to tell its story. It intentionally points to the book of Revelation in the title to put the listener in a mindset, then creates a story around that. It's how it has always come off to me, anyways. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Heaven Can Wait still relies on religioun to establish its story. Am I dreaming, or did I escape death and the afterlife? ect ect

7th son relies on numerology to an extent which is used in all of the major religiouns. It is also very anti-religious in several aspects. It's a negative commentary on the church in certain ways, and you can't do that without relying on religious imagery to begin with.

Some lyrics sampled from Only the Good Die Young on 7th son:


Fly in the face of the prophets I mock your morality plays
The moon is red and bleeding
The sun is burned and black
The book of life is silent
No turning back

and later in the song...


Walking on water are miracles all you can trust
Measure your coffin does is measure up to your lust?
So I think I'll leave you
With your bishops and your guilt
So until the next time
Have a good sin

Seven deadly sins
Seven ways to win
Seven holy paths to hell

Seven downward slopes
Seven bloodied hopes
Seven are your burning fires
Seven your desires.....
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2462 on: March 02, 2017, 01:53:14 PM »
I disagree. Revelations, in my opinion, greatly relied on the imagery of the lyrics being apocolyptic to tell its story. It intentionally points to the book of Revelation in the title to put the listener in a mindset, then creates a story around that. It's how it has always come off to me, anyways. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Heaven Can Wait still relies on religioun to establish its story. Am I dreaming, or did I escape death and the afterlife? ect ect

7th son relies on numerology to an extent which is used in all of the major religiouns. It is also very anti-religious in several aspects. It's a negative commentary on the church in certain ways, and you can't do that without relying on religious imagery to begin with.

I STRONGLY disagree with you on Revelations and do think you are reading too much into it.  But as I understood you post, you are trying to make a contrast between what people thought was the message behind NOTB, which implies that the songs you mentioned are, in some respect, pro-religion or somewhat supportive of religion.  And, by extension, because we are again contrasting that with the perceived message of NOTB, we would be talking about, for lack of a better term (and, for the record, I hate this term), Judeo-Christian religion.  Those songs aren't really supporting or endorsing religion in that sense.  In fact, I'm not sure ANY Maiden song does that, despite that quite a few of their songs are commentaries on religion or may use religion or religious imagery to make a point. 

It reminds me a lot of an interview I read a long time ago from some magazine or website or something that was somewhat loosely "Christian-based" (again, for lack of a better term), and they were praising the DT guys for being a "Christian band" because of all the great "Christian imagery" in their lyrics on I&W.  And JP's reaction was along the lines of (paraphrasing), "Um, wait, what?  No, we're not a 'Christian band' and that isn't what we're saying at all.  We use religious imagery in our lyrics to make a point, but it isn't the point you are reading in.  You really haven't read our lyrics carefully if you think that is what we are saying." 

I think it is largely the same with Maiden.  They use religious imagery all over the place.  But if you try to take that and say that they are somehow pro-religion or, more specifically, pro-Christianity in their lyrics, I think you either misunderstood their lyrics or don't really have a clear understanding of what that religion actually teaches.  (and I'm using "you" in a general sense--not calling you out specifically)

That's how I see it.  Bit maybe I misunderstood.
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2463 on: March 02, 2017, 02:19:20 PM »
I disagree. Revelations, in my opinion, greatly relied on the imagery of the lyrics being apocolyptic to tell its story. It intentionally points to the book of Revelation in the title to put the listener in a mindset, then creates a story around that. It's how it has always come off to me, anyways. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Heaven Can Wait still relies on religioun to establish its story. Am I dreaming, or did I escape death and the afterlife? ect ect

7th son relies on numerology to an extent which is used in all of the major religiouns. It is also very anti-religious in several aspects. It's a negative commentary on the church in certain ways, and you can't do that without relying on religious imagery to begin with.

I STRONGLY disagree with you on Revelations and do think you are reading too much into it.  But as I understood you post, you are trying to make a contrast between what people thought was the message behind NOTB, which implies that the songs you mentioned are, in some respect, pro-religion or somewhat supportive of religion.  And, by extension, because we are again contrasting that with the perceived message of NOTB, we would be talking about, for lack of a better term (and, for the record, I hate this term), Judeo-Christian religion.  Those songs aren't really supporting or endorsing religion in that sense.  In fact, I'm not sure ANY Maiden song does that, despite that quite a few of their songs are commentaries on religion or may use religion or religious imagery to make a point. 

It reminds me a lot of an interview I read a long time ago from some magazine or website or something that was somewhat loosely "Christian-based" (again, for lack of a better term), and they were praising the DT guys for being a "Christian band" because of all the great "Christian imagery" in their lyrics on I&W.  And JP's reaction was along the lines of (paraphrasing), "Um, wait, what?  No, we're not a 'Christian band' and that isn't what we're saying at all.  We use religious imagery in our lyrics to make a point, but it isn't the point you are reading in.  You really haven't read our lyrics carefully if you think that is what we are saying." 

I think it is largely the same with Maiden.  They use religious imagery all over the place.  But if you try to take that and say that they are somehow pro-religion or, more specifically, pro-Christianity in their lyrics, I think you either misunderstood their lyrics or don't really have a clear understanding of what that religion actually teaches.  (and I'm using "you" in a general sense--not calling you out specifically)

That's how I see it.  Bit maybe I misunderstood.

I think you understood me, but I think that we're still coming at it from different angles. My point was that they used religious imagery to build some of their stories/lyrics around. Some of it is Judeo-Christian, but some of it is pagan. Powerslave is the perfect example of using pagan imagery. The character is dealing with his own mortality after being worshiped as a god for his entire existence.

I do maintain that Revelations is a play on the book. They added the s to the end of the name of the song as a sort of nod/wink to separate the two, but it's greatly reliant upon Christianity.

The opening lyrics to Revelations is lifted from an English Christian Hymnal:

"O God of Earth and Altar,
Bow down and hear our cry,
Our earthly rulers falter,
Our people drift and die,
The walls of gold entomb us,
The swords of scorn divide,
Take not thy thunder from us,
Take away our pride."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton

The guy who wrote it was (amongst other things according to the article) a lay theologian.
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Offline Samsara

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2464 on: March 02, 2017, 02:26:55 PM »
Both of you should be banned for not closing out your posts:

SCREAM FOR ME DTF!

/dork

Uh...scream for me dtf?!
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Offline Lowdz

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2465 on: March 02, 2017, 02:31:04 PM »
If I had to pick a personal favorite Maiden album, it would be Somewhere in time.

I just absolutely adore this album. From the killer songs to the time travel theme. I just love it
the cover is the best thing about it. I was mightily disappointed with it at the time and I never really play it at all. It was the start of me falling out of love with the band. Wasted Years is fine and I like Deja Vu and Alexander. The rest is pretty poor.

I never really got back the love tbh, though I have liked the reunion albums.

Offline PowerSlave

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2466 on: March 02, 2017, 03:39:03 PM »
Both of you should be banned for not closing out your posts:

SCREAM FOR ME DTF!

/dork

Uh...scream for me dtf?!

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Offline Mosh

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2467 on: March 02, 2017, 03:44:41 PM »
Nicko is the only Christian guy in the band AFAIK. And he didn't convert until the late 90s/early 00s. Bruce is pretty strongly atheist (and maybe even anti-theist) and Steve's lyrics suggest an agnostic point of view.

The religious imagery in their lyrics never went away, but depicting Satan and Hell in their artwork, videos, and stage designs pretty much ended with NOTB.
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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2468 on: March 02, 2017, 03:47:18 PM »
SCREAM FOR ME DTF!

 :metal

Now that is a religion I can get behind.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2469 on: March 02, 2017, 04:00:07 PM »
The religious imagery in their lyrics never went away, but depicting Satan and Hell in their artwork, videos, and stage designs pretty much ended with NOTB.

For the most part.  That devil still pops up on stage every time they play NOTB though. 

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2470 on: March 02, 2017, 07:13:41 PM »
Oh yea, forgot about that.
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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2471 on: March 02, 2017, 07:22:27 PM »
Home from work, and now catching up. This last page has turned into a P/R thread! ;D


Regarding Somewhere In Time, when it came out, it instantly became my favorite Maiden album. That, after Powerslave, which I wasn't a huge fan of. But now, years later, Powerslave has aged much better IMO.
Still, Caught Somewhere In Time is a TAC Top 5 Maiden track!
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2472 on: March 03, 2017, 01:27:55 AM »
Tim I'm surprised you didn't latch onto Powerslave immediately. It just screams classic to me, plus such a cool album cover

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2473 on: March 03, 2017, 07:34:28 AM »
Wasted Years is fine and I like Deja Vu and Alexander. The rest is pretty poor.

Stranger In A Strange Land might just be my favourite Maiden song  :-\ I don't think that's a feeling commonly shared. I'm also a huge fan of Infinite Dreams and, again, I don't think that's a song that widely heralded.

Anyway, that said, I'm not a big fan of Somewhere In Time as a whole. The Loneliness Of The Long Distance Runner always struck me as a terribly silly idea for a song (I know it's a short story and film too, but even so), particularly given how seriously the song seems to take itself as opposed to a song such as Die With Your Boots On. Caught Somewhere In Time and Heaven Can Wait are a bit bloated and Alexander The Great feels all a bit didactic.

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2474 on: March 03, 2017, 07:42:24 AM »
Yea that stuff only lasted for the one album and tour. By 1983 they moved on to other topics and dropped the satanic angle completely.

They did maintain the religious angle, though. Of course you have Revelations on POM, then an argument could be made that the song Powerslave could come from a religious angle. Heaven Can Wait on SiT, and the entire 7th son album.
Revelations is not religious.  I mean, it has allusions to pagan religion in the lyrics, but isn't really a religious song in any way.

Heaven can wait is arguably anti-religion.

And I'm not sure how 7th Son is "religious."  It is a concept album about a sorcerer.  How is that religious?  :lol

Not responding to Bosk specifically (his was just the post I picked to "quote") but I should point out that there is a strong argument that "religion" (i.e. worship of a spiritual being) and "spirituality" (i.e. the belief in a spiritual being) are different things.    I KNOW there are plenty of Maiden lyrics that are anti-RELIGION, in the sense of "the opiate of the masses", but I don't know that there are many that are anti-spiritual being, in the sense of "there is no god".   

Also, I'm not so quick to label Bruce an atheist.   He has rarely spoken about his personal religious views, but some of his comments, particularly in regard to William Blake (whose works form a sort of basis for "The Chemical Wedding").   



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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2475 on: March 03, 2017, 11:31:23 AM »


This is in brooklyn  :metal from IM's FB.

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2476 on: March 03, 2017, 07:13:35 PM »
Tim I'm surprised you didn't latch onto Powerslave immediately. It just screams classic to me, plus such a cool album cover

One of the things that I loved about TNOTB and POM was that it was progressed NWOBHM. It was better than the classic NWOBHM style.

But when Powerslave came out, it is basically their most NWOBHM styled album. To me, it was an instant letdown. The first single, 2MTM used that old recycled riff that I already heard from Accept, Saxon, Dio, and Riot. Losfer Words pales in comparison to Transylvania, and Rime was long for the sake of being long. All they did in the press at the time was brag about Rime's length.
And you mention the album cover. Yawn. I had just seen Dio on the Last In Line tour and their set was based upon the Egyptian theme. It just felt totally unoriginal.

Thankfully, I did see the tour, and I liked Live After Death. But when SiT came out, they regained my imagination.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2477 on: March 04, 2017, 11:06:40 AM »
I had been a huge fan of NOTB and POM when PS first came out. At the time, I thought it was their masterpiece. But it hasn't quite aged as well as the other two.

I still find it hard to believe people rally around SiT. From the moment I first played it, I thought the choruses were far lazier than previous efforts. Some of it I really love. Sea of Madness is probably my favorite, and Heaven Can Wait got better once I heard it live. But Deja Vu is dumb, Lonliness is boring, and Alexander is the worst mini epic they ever did.
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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2478 on: March 04, 2017, 07:28:12 PM »
Love those last three songs you mentioned and it's a big reason why I love that album.  Probably my second favorite behind AMoLaD  then Powerslave, I think

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2479 on: March 12, 2017, 06:49:06 AM »
Let's all celebrate Steve Harris' birthday today!  :metal

Hail to the legend, the man whose determination and drive almost single-handedly brought Maiden on top of the world  :hefdaddy
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline Zydar

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2480 on: March 12, 2017, 07:56:03 AM »
Happy birthday Steve! :metal
Zydar is my new hero.  I just laughed so hard I nearly shat.

Online jjrock88

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2481 on: March 12, 2017, 10:52:33 AM »
Happy Birthday!!

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2482 on: March 12, 2017, 03:45:30 PM »
Happy Birthday, metal god.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Online TAC

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would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline wolfking

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #2484 on: March 23, 2017, 06:54:02 PM »
Just listened to The Book of Souls for the first time in a long time and it's a brilliant piece of work, although I don't think it's aged as well as the other reunion albums for some reason.  Can't put my finger on it.  The opener, title track and TRATB are absolute classics though.  And Empire of the Clouds is so unique for this band, it's amazing.  Maybe the band just broke the formula so this album sort of sits on its own, I don't know.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.