Author Topic: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls  (Read 570268 times)

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Offline nick_z

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5845 on: July 23, 2021, 12:41:06 PM »
Continuing with my random thoughts as I revisit BNW - always felt the soft part in The Thin Line Between Love and Hate could totally belong in a Fates Warning song...the clean guitars and the lead...then Bruce singing "The thin line...between love and hate"...they way he closes it, very Ray Alder-sounding...
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 01:24:06 PM by nick_z »

Offline Mladen

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5846 on: July 23, 2021, 01:19:37 PM »
I agree with Nick that the guitar harmonies haven't been as frequent recently as they were in the 80s. Among the later day stuff, tracks like Brave new world, The Great unknown and The Alchemist probably feature the best twin harmonies, but as much as I like them, I wish there was more of it. Fingers crossed this album delivers the goods.  :tup

Offline DoctorAction

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5847 on: July 23, 2021, 04:09:55 PM »
The Alchemist  :metal
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Offline wolfking

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5848 on: July 23, 2021, 04:18:48 PM »
Actually, Losfer Words is where we first hear the Wasted Years riff funnily enough.  Others;

Shadows of the Valley
The Clansman (last chorus)
The Fallen Angel (chorus)
Paschendale (main theme)
FTGGOG (Dave kind of pinches it for his solo)
El Dorado (intro)

There are a few techniques/tricks that Maiden use all the time. Repeating single root notes and dotting in other single notes might be the most common. You hear it all over the place (And in metal generally. All over thrash style riffs with the repeating root muted.) Is Phantom the first place it comes up? Does it come up before Maiden or is it "their's"?

Which part in Phantom are you referring to?
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Offline wolfking

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5849 on: July 23, 2021, 04:22:57 PM »
It's been a while since I listened to some Maiden (aside from the new single). I plan on doing a reunion era "marathon" this weekend. I usually just focus on the 80s stuff.

Following you lead...I have Brave New World on now...I always had the impression that overall production is much better on BNW than in subsequent albums. Is it just me?

Nope.
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5850 on: July 23, 2021, 04:40:15 PM »
Actually, Losfer Words is where we first hear the Wasted Years riff funnily enough.  Others;

Shadows of the Valley
The Clansman (last chorus)
The Fallen Angel (chorus)
Paschendale (main theme)
FTGGOG (Dave kind of pinches it for his solo)
El Dorado (intro)

There are a few techniques/tricks that Maiden use all the time. Repeating single root notes and dotting in other single notes might be the most common. You hear it all over the place (And in metal generally. All over thrash style riffs with the repeating root muted.) Is Phantom the first place it comes up? Does it come up before Maiden or is it "their's"?

Which part in Phantom are you referring to?

The part right after the intro. 22 seconds in. In that song it starts with the root note and taps another. The Wasted Years intro hits the tapped note first then repeats the root note but same technique.
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Offline wolfking

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5851 on: July 23, 2021, 04:53:41 PM »
Actually, Losfer Words is where we first hear the Wasted Years riff funnily enough.  Others;

Shadows of the Valley
The Clansman (last chorus)
The Fallen Angel (chorus)
Paschendale (main theme)
FTGGOG (Dave kind of pinches it for his solo)
El Dorado (intro)

There are a few techniques/tricks that Maiden use all the time. Repeating single root notes and dotting in other single notes might be the most common. You hear it all over the place (And in metal generally. All over thrash style riffs with the repeating root muted.) Is Phantom the first place it comes up? Does it come up before Maiden or is it "their's"?

Which part in Phantom are you referring to?

The part right after the intro. 22 seconds in. In that song it starts with the root note and taps another. The Wasted Years intro hits the tapped note first then repeats the root note but same technique.

Nah, that's different.  The Wasted Years riff and the others I mentioned use an open E string with tremolo picking with all of the notes of the E string scattered throughout.

The Phantom riff uses the same picking technique but the riff is just alternating between thirds.  The first part of the riff is just E (probably played on the A string, 7th fret, or could be D string 2nd fret) alternating between G.  There's a G and D chord in between though.

The next part moves the same third alternate shape up to F# and A and then something pretty cool out of key moves up to G and a Bb note.  That Bb flat note is not in the scale which is a clever part of the riff to give that tension for the subject matter.
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5852 on: July 23, 2021, 05:04:42 PM »
Same technique, different notes/strings.
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Offline wolfking

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5853 on: July 23, 2021, 05:15:03 PM »
Same technique, different notes/strings.

Okay.
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Offline darkshade

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5854 on: July 23, 2021, 05:54:15 PM »
I know the reunion era begins with Brave New World, but the 'sound' of the reunion era really begins after Bruce first left, on The X Factor. Bruce and Adrian returning just gave the then-current band a kick in the nuts it needed (plus the band's true front man and voice returning)

I think this was discussed recently, but there is a shift in the sound and production after Fear of the Dark. As much as FOTD (and NPFTD) aren't as good as the previous albums, they still have that linear continuation from the 80s in their sound, and Bruce still sounds like young Bruce (but with more rasp, which I think hurt his voice in the long term, just like James LaBrie adding rasp to his voice before he destroyed his vocal cords)

Offline 425

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5855 on: July 23, 2021, 06:01:16 PM »
Yeah, I bang on this particular drum from time to time, and I think I brought it up again a week or two ago. I see a clear continuity from The X Factor onward.
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Offline darkshade

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5856 on: July 23, 2021, 06:02:38 PM »
Yeah, I bang on this particular drum from time to time, and I think I brought it up again a week or two ago. I see a clear continuity from The X Factor onward.

It's especially noticeable if you listen chronologically from The X Factor to The Book of Souls.

Offline Mladen

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5857 on: July 24, 2021, 02:18:45 AM »
That's also the way I see it. The X Factor was the first modern-day Maiden album in my mind, whereas Virtual XI is like a predecessor to Brave new world. The reunion era managed to improve on the sound with Bruce's return, the third guitar and the live production by Kevin Shirley.

Offline bobzor

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5858 on: July 24, 2021, 03:00:27 AM »
Yeah, I bang on this particular drum from time to time, and I think I brought it up again a week or two ago. I see a clear continuity from The X Factor onward.

So do I, and I think it has a lot to do with the fact that Steve Harris became the main producer himself. After Martin Birch retired, the songs are getting longer and more repetitive. Sure, X-Factor had Nigel Green as producer, but he was probably just a yes-man to Steve. And Kevin Shirley certainly continues on that path.

Super stoked for the new album. Writing on The Wall was not phenomenal, but still a good Maiden song. Especially Smith's solo was pure awesomeness.

Offline Dream Team

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5859 on: July 24, 2021, 07:59:32 AM »
As much as I’m hoping for 80s-style epics from Harris, I’m a little worried about those last 3 songs. Will he double-down on all the Harrisms that have gotten out of control?

Online Zydar

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5860 on: July 24, 2021, 08:30:15 AM »


I stumbled upon this cover on the webz. "Includes The Writing On The Wall and Stratego". Does that mean that the next video/single will be Stratego? Isn't that often the case with these stickers?
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Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5861 on: July 24, 2021, 08:42:57 AM »
well, it can be, and I would guess it is, but what do I know
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Offline RodrigoAltaf

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5862 on: July 24, 2021, 10:58:35 AM »
As much as I’m hoping for 80s-style epics from Harris, I’m a little worried about those last 3 songs. Will he double-down on all the Harrisms that have gotten out of control?

Yes

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5863 on: July 24, 2021, 11:51:20 AM »
As much as I’m hoping for 80s-style epics from Harris, I’m a little worried about those last 3 songs. Will he double-down on all the Harrisms that have gotten out of control?

Yes
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Offline 425

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5864 on: July 24, 2021, 12:03:53 PM »
I have to think that for Bruce and Adrian to be okay with letting Steve have this much of the album, they have to have been pretty happy with what he wrote.

And I really disagree, just on the basic level, with the "Harrisisms out of control" idea. He is actually shedding a lot of the things that people like to criticize! The repetitive choruses, for example. They are by far the worst on Brave New World (which strangely does not stop it from tending to be the favorite reunion album of the same people who criticize Harris), and he does fewer of them on each album until The Book of Souls, where they are completely gone. It has been eleven years since Harris wrote a repetitive chorus. So it can't be that one that's "getting out of control." Which one is?
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Offline Cruithne

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5865 on: July 24, 2021, 01:11:24 PM »
I have to think that for Bruce and Adrian to be okay with letting Steve have this much of the album, they have to have been pretty happy with what he wrote.

He just looked them square in the eye and asked them the most pertinent of questions: Don't you think I'm a savior?

Offline Lupton

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5866 on: July 24, 2021, 03:49:37 PM »
I prefer my Harrisisms done medium well.

Offline darkshade

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5867 on: July 24, 2021, 04:38:29 PM »
Based on the band's track record, I expect nothing less than a solid album, so I'm not concerned.

Offline Dream Team

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5868 on: July 24, 2021, 07:14:05 PM »
I have to think that for Bruce and Adrian to be okay with letting Steve have this much of the album, they have to have been pretty happy with what he wrote.

And I really disagree, just on the basic level, with the "Harrisisms out of control" idea. He is actually shedding a lot of the things that people like to criticize! The repetitive choruses, for example. They are by far the worst on Brave New World (which strangely does not stop it from tending to be the favorite reunion album of the same people who criticize Harris), and he does fewer of them on each album until The Book of Souls, where they are completely gone. It has been eleven years since Harris wrote a repetitive chorus. So it can't be that one that's "getting out of control." Which one is?

Fine. Let’s go with unnecessary length-padding, excessive noodling, and constantly using the same chord progressions and tempos?

Offline 425

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5869 on: July 24, 2021, 08:23:26 PM »
I think the last two claims (chord progressions and tempos) have some legitimacy, but the first two are just matters of personal opinion dressed up in a really loaded language and presented as though they're objective observations about a songwriter's tendencies.

"Unnecessary length-padding" just translates as "he writes songs that are longer than I would like them to be." The "padding" part of the claim assumes a motivation that you cannot possibly have knowledge of, and it's also a motivation that doesn't make sense. Harris knows full well that a massive portion of the audience wishes he would write shorter songs. Do you really think that he's sitting around saying to himself, "Well, I only really have enough material for a six-minute song, but I feel the heavy weight of expectations demanding that it be nine minutes, so I guess I have to pad it out"? Or is it more likely that he just thinks that these songs have sufficient material to necessitate their length, and you disagree? I don't think it makes sense to say that this, as written, is a tendency, because "unnecessary" is an opinion, not a fact, and "padding" is speculation about a person's motivation. "He writes long songs" is definitely a tendency of Harris's, but I doubt you'll get as many people on the bandwagon of "I hope this album isn't ruined by the horrible Harrisism of writing long songs." At least not here, because *points to band name in URL*.

I don't even know what "excessive noodling" is supposed to mean, but I gather it means "there are more complex instrumental parts than I would like there to be." It's a weird criticism to see on Dream Theater Forums Dot Org, but it's definitely an opinion one could have. But I don't think it's something you can say amounts to a tendency of Harris's, because it's not a fact, it's an opinion. If you said "he tends to have long instrumental sections," I think that would be accurate. But, again, I don't think you're going to get as many people on the bandwagon of "oh I hope this album isn't dragged down by Harrisisms out of control, like having long instrumental sections." Again, *points to URL*



I feel like I've been arguing a lot with people who don't like the reunion era a lot lately, so I want to be clear: I don't particularly care if you don't like these albums. I'm not trying to change your mind about them. But I am kind of bothered by the pile-on of "oh, this is obviously bad and that is obviously bad, and the band has completely lost it" when most of it is really just that you personally don't like what they're doing. It's just so common, in my experience, for people to say this when older bands try something new, and the fans of the older material don't like the new thing they're trying. It's fine, you don't have to like it, but that doesn't make it bad, especially in a case like this, where obviously a lot of people do like it.

I also think a lot of the criticism directed at bands late in their career unfairly boxes them into a no-win scenario. If they write something that sounds like their old stuff, they're out of ideas and just doing lame repetitions of their former greatness. If they write something that sounds different, they're out of touch, they've lost it, they're doing something weird or boring that nobody cares about. Maiden does some of both and, instead of avoiding either losing proposition, they catch the criticisms of both of them. And I just think it's really lame that this stuff gets heaped on basically every band with more than 7-8 albums, especially because I tend to think the later-career work of a lot of artists is actually really interesting and often more refined than their breakout albums.
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5870 on: July 25, 2021, 01:38:03 AM »
Harris knows full well that a massive portion of the audience wishes he would write shorter songs.

Does he?
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5871 on: July 25, 2021, 04:22:39 AM »
I feel like I've been arguing a lot with people who don't like the reunion era a lot lately, so I want to be clear: I don't particularly care if you don't like these albums. I'm not trying to change your mind about them. But I am kind of bothered by the pile-on of "oh, this is obviously bad and that is obviously bad, and the band has completely lost it" when most of it is really just that you personally don't like what they're doing. It's just so common, in my experience, for people to say this when older bands try something new, and the fans of the older material don't like the new thing they're trying. It's fine, you don't have to like it, but that doesn't make it bad, especially in a case like this, where obviously a lot of people do like it.

I also think a lot of the criticism directed at bands late in their career unfairly boxes them into a no-win scenario. If they write something that sounds like their old stuff, they're out of ideas and just doing lame repetitions of their former greatness. If they write something that sounds different, they're out of touch, they've lost it, they're doing something weird or boring that nobody cares about. Maiden does some of both and, instead of avoiding either losing proposition, they catch the criticisms of both of them. And I just think it's really lame that this stuff gets heaped on basically every band with more than 7-8 albums, especially because I tend to think the later-career work of a lot of artists is actually really interesting and often more refined than their breakout albums.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, I've been trying to say stuff in the form of this for the past five years.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5872 on: July 25, 2021, 05:11:46 AM »
I just gave a spin to my personal version of The Book of Souls, I did just some trimmings here and there - the ending of The Man of Sorrows, and some of the solo sections of Empire and Red & Black. Speaking of this one, it's not really repetitive for the sake of being long, there's always a crescendo - first you just hear the "stadium chorus" melody, then after another verse we hear it with the oh oh oh ho oh and the guitar line just finishing it, and then at the third time comes also "I need somebody to save me". There's always something being added, maybe when the verse changes again two stanzas could have been reduced to one, but all in all it's a song that flows and builds up to the chorus quite nicely.

On the other hand it's For the Greater Good of God that disrupts the continuous buildup to the chorus by adding two long verses, but probably those were needed for the lyrical content, evidently Steve needed more verses to express his thoughts the way he wanted to convey them.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5873 on: July 25, 2021, 09:02:00 AM »
Don't we listen to artists to hear THEIR vision, THEIR choices?    No knock on anyone else, and there are certainly songs where I go "wow I might have liked this more if they did "this"", but generally, they are what they are, no?   It's not like Maiden are Neil Young jumping from rock to folk to bluegrass to rockabilly from album to album.  You KNOW what you're going to get, and there are 17 albums to choose from if one happens to not be right up your alley. 

Offline Zantera

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5874 on: July 25, 2021, 10:22:28 AM »
Editing the music yourself is one of the most bizarre things I have heard to be honest but I know there's people doing similar things with movies and such. I find it a bit extreme but I guess whatever does it for you.  :lol

Offline nick_z

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5875 on: July 25, 2021, 10:34:47 AM »
Continuing with the the reunion albums revisits...

Dance of Death is still excellent. In terms of the discussion we are having on more recent vs. "classic" Iron Maiden, this is where (for my own taste, of course!), in the reunion era, they strike their best balance between the proggier (read: longer) songs and the more immediate rockers. I really like BNW, but this was an improvement over it (except for the way it sounds)

A Matter of Life and Death: my opinion hasn't changed much on this album over the years. It's very good, but a bit of a chore to get through in its entirety. There are no songs I dislike, actually (Out of the Shadows perhaps a little unremarkable compared to the rest). I just think they could use some trimming here and there. So much good stuff, though. I always enjoyed the Thin Lizzy-esque (pre?) chorus in Different World. It'd be interesting to hear Bruce sing this way more often. The Reincarnation of Benjamin Breeg is a very cool song too, with the slightly heavier than usual riffage. Favorites are probably The Pilgrim, The Longest Day and For the Greater Good of God (still, an example of a song I'd prefer a bit shorter...could do without the intro and some repetition). Sound-wise, I guess it's ok, although it bugs me there are some really cool guitar parts that are a little buried (Different World, or towards the end of Lord of Light).

Offline 425

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5876 on: July 25, 2021, 12:39:19 PM »
Don't we listen to artists to hear THEIR vision, THEIR choices?    No knock on anyone else, and there are certainly songs where I go "wow I might have liked this more if they did "this"", but generally, they are what they are, no?   It's not like Maiden are Neil Young jumping from rock to folk to bluegrass to rockabilly from album to album.  You KNOW what you're going to get, and there are 17 albums to choose from if one happens to not be right up your alley.

This is very, very, very much how I feel about it. With all the artists I follow, I'm interested in hearing what they are going to do next. I don't really think I know better than them what they should write. I may not like some of the things that they do, and there may even be cases where I really don't like a particular choice, but I'm still interested in hearing what comes from their mind, their soul.

I think this post puts into words really well something that I like about a lot of your posts on this forum, Stadler. You really seem to approach music and writing about music with an eye to finding things that are interesting and enjoyable, and are always on the lookout for those things in places where you might not expect it or where you might be tempted to have an initial negative reaction. I much prefer that type of approach over the approach that seeks primarily to critique and that approaches music like ordering off a restaurant menu ("You didn't bring me six heavy rockers, one power ballad and two up-tempo tracks? I need to speak to your manager.").
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Offline Dedalus

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5877 on: July 25, 2021, 01:28:44 PM »
Harris knows full well that a massive portion of the audience wishes he would write shorter songs.

Does he?

Well, unless he doesn't have internet access, yeah... he does.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5878 on: July 25, 2021, 01:31:03 PM »
Editing the music yourself is one of the most bizarre things I have heard to be honest but I know there's people doing similar things with movies and such. I find it a bit extreme but I guess whatever does it for you.  :lol

I generally am with you, but I made an instrumental version of War Pigs and an instrumental version of Tonight (by Ozzy) that kick all kinds of ass. Not that I don't like Ozzy's vocals - I do - but it's just musical bliss.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Iron Maiden Thread v. The Merge of Souls
« Reply #5879 on: July 25, 2021, 01:33:22 PM »
Don't we listen to artists to hear THEIR vision, THEIR choices?    No knock on anyone else, and there are certainly songs where I go "wow I might have liked this more if they did "this"", but generally, they are what they are, no?   It's not like Maiden are Neil Young jumping from rock to folk to bluegrass to rockabilly from album to album.  You KNOW what you're going to get, and there are 17 albums to choose from if one happens to not be right up your alley.

This is very, very, very much how I feel about it. With all the artists I follow, I'm interested in hearing what they are going to do next. I don't really think I know better than them what they should write. I may not like some of the things that they do, and there may even be cases where I really don't like a particular choice, but I'm still interested in hearing what comes from their mind, their soul.

I think this post puts into words really well something that I like about a lot of your posts on this forum, Stadler. You really seem to approach music and writing about music with an eye to finding things that are interesting and enjoyable, and are always on the lookout for those things in places where you might not expect it or where you might be tempted to have an initial negative reaction. I much prefer that type of approach over the approach that seeks primarily to critique and that approaches music like ordering off a restaurant menu ("You didn't bring me six heavy rockers, one power ballad and two up-tempo tracks? I need to speak to your manager.").

You nailed it; I listen to music for enjoyment and release, and I don't really consciously think about what I like.  I also don't worry about what I "should" like, or "shouldn't" like.   I listen, and if I dig it, I'm in.  If I don't, I'm out.  And sometimes things change.  I used to hate Devin Townsend, then Chad sent me Deep Peace in a roulette and it clicked and now I'm a fan.  I don't like EVERYTHING he does, but I do love his ethos and his ethic, so I listen to that which I like.