Work Related Gripes V The Wrath Of Jay..

[wolfking]

Is the sick time a separate bucket from PTO?

No. Our PTO is all in one bucket. But we do have "planned PTO" and "unplanned PTO". You get attendance points for unplanned PTO, but not for planned PTO. Planned is technically requesting it more than 24 hours in advance, but I've never really cared as long as it was the day before.

Interesting. So if you’re actually sick and use unplanned PTO, then you get attendance points?

Yes. Basically it's meant to discourage people from calling in sick when they're really not (which is what my person is doing). You get 1/2 a point whenever you take unplanned PTO. But you max out at 1 point per illness if you have a note from a doctor confirming you were actually sick, so you can be out for 5 days and get 1 point instead of 2.5.

I think this is a great sounding system.

[wolfking]

Separate leave for me too.  Similar to Marc though, sick leave does roll over but doesn't get paid out.  A small reward though is I get paid for 3 sick days once a year every anniversary date if I don't use any through the year.

Annual leave is paid out and also we accumulate long service leave that can be used after 7 years plus for me I get on call leave.  Means when I'm on call for my venues 24 hours a day for alarm calls, after hours access etc. (which is literally 365 days a year) I accumulate leave.  If I'm on call for a public holiday, I get a full day leave which accumulates to my total too.

[Lonk]

PTO is the same as sick days where I work, but I don't stress days off and whatnot.  My boss is really good about stuff. I had to leave three weeks ago for a few hours to visit the hospital when my aunt was on the verge of passing and then had to the same last Tuesday for my uncle days later.  In both cases, I was out of the office for 3-4 hours in the middle of the work day and he never said anything about me having to take any PTO or anything.  He is really good about that kind of stuff, but to throw out a humble brag , I am sure he knows I am not someone who would take advantage of it.

My old boss was like that was well. I remember when my first month in the job, I went up to her because I needed to leave work an hour early and her response was "You don't need to tell me when you're leaving early. I trust that you'll make up the time". Ever since, whenever I was leaving early I would only mention it if it was over an hour early, anything less than that I would just leave, and come in earlier the following day (which I usually got to work 30 mins early anyways).

I've been at my current job for a little over a year now and I still don't feel comfortable to leave even 10 mins early unless I have to.

[lordxizor]

PTO is the same as sick days where I work, but I don't stress days off and whatnot.  My boss is really good about stuff. I had to leave three weeks ago for a few hours to visit the hospital when my aunt was on the verge of passing and then had to the same last Tuesday for my uncle days later.  In both cases, I was out of the office for 3-4 hours in the middle of the work day and he never said anything about me having to take any PTO or anything.  He is really good about that kind of stuff, but to throw out a humble brag , I am sure he knows I am not someone who would take advantage of it.

This is pretty much how it works for salaried people at my company. If you're taking off les than half a day, you can just make it up some other time, but no one really keeps track as long as the work is getting done. The hourly people don't have as much freedom unfortunately.

[lordxizor]

I went back and added up this woman's attendance points and she is technically 1 unplanned absence away from needing to be fired. Now, I'm not going to do that because I haven't given her the formal written warning I was supposed to give her 2 points ago. But I guess I should do that now.

I am also completely ignoring any points that technically need to be assigned if she punches in late or out early, which I frankly don't give a crap about if she's putting in 40 hours total. But I'm sure if I figured those out she'd be over the limit.

[Evermind]

Is the sick time a separate bucket from PTO?

No. Our PTO is all in one bucket. But we do have "planned PTO" and "unplanned PTO". You get attendance points for unplanned PTO, but not for planned PTO. Planned is technically requesting it more than 24 hours in advance, but I've never really cared as long as it was the day before.

Interesting. So if you’re actually sick and use unplanned PTO, then you get attendance points?

Yes. Basically it's meant to discourage people from calling in sick when they're really not (which is what my person is doing). You get 1/2 a point whenever you take unplanned PTO. But you max out at 1 point per illness if you have a note from a doctor confirming you were actually sick, so you can be out for 5 days and get 1 point instead of 2.5.

I think this is a great sounding system.

Not talking about the person in question (who is faking being sick apparently), and also not attacking anybody in particular here, especially not you, lordxizor, and not you, Kade:

I'm not from US or Australia and I guess work culture is different there (sick leave is paid here, not 100% but paid, and you always have to get an official doctor's note), but I think the system above is frankly bullshit. I think if you get a doctor's note, you shouldn't receive any points at all. I get it, it's frustrating for the workplace/manager as they now have to find someone to cover the absent person's spot, I've been there for the last year especially, but sickness (confirmed by a doctor) is a perfectly valid reason not to show up. Giving out any absence points for that is punishing people for getting sick.

I only took sick leave 3 times in 10 years: appendicitis in 2015, Covid in 2020 and 39°+ fever a month later, so no personal interest here either way. Just thought I'd post my thoughts.

[lordxizor]

I think if you get a doctor's note, you shouldn't receive any points at all.

I tend to agree, however, it's not difficult to get a doctor's note in the US. The woman in question went to a drop in clinic and got a note clearing her for return to work. It offered no detail that she actually was sick. I suppose I could push back on that (maybe? I'd have to check with HR), but I'm not going to.

[cramx3]

I think if you get a doctor's note, you shouldn't receive any points at all.

I tend to agree, however, it's not difficult to get a doctor's note in the US. The woman in question went to a drop in clinic and got a note clearing her for return to work. It offered no detail that she actually was sick. I suppose I could push back on that (maybe? I'd have to check with HR), but I'm not going to.

Yeah, the whole doctor's note thing is stupid IMO.  I also feel it's completely unnecessary to burden the healthcare systems just for a note in some cases.

[Lonk]

Not sure how it is in other places, but in NYC you only need to provide a Dr.'s note if you are out for more than 3 days.

[lordxizor]

I think if you get a doctor's note, you shouldn't receive any points at all.

I tend to agree, however, it's not difficult to get a doctor's note in the US. The woman in question went to a drop in clinic and got a note clearing her for return to work. It offered no detail that she actually was sick. I suppose I could push back on that (maybe? I'd have to check with HR), but I'm not going to.

Yeah, the whole doctor's note thing is stupid IMO.  I also feel it's completely unnecessary to burden the healthcare systems just for a note in some cases.

I think it's dumb too. We have PTO to be able to use whenever and however we want. I don't care if you have Covid, are puking violently, are tired, want to go to the beach because it's a beautiful day, or just feel like binge watching Netflix all day. Call and tell me you won't be in and you use your PTO day. Now, I don't work in a position where one person being out greatly impacts production like it can do in some positions. It's a minor inconvenience at worst for us.

[King Postwhore]

Let me play devil's advocate here.  If someone constantly calls out it's not fair for those showing up every day.  I know damn well that employees talk about others and then point to favoritism or it's unfair I have to be here all the time.  That's why, doctor's note protect that employee.  It's proof.  Most who need a mental day off are not willing to sit in a doctors office to get a note.

[Evermind]

I think if you get a doctor's note, you shouldn't receive any points at all.

I tend to agree, however, it's not difficult to get a doctor's note in the US. The woman in question went to a drop in clinic and got a note clearing her for return to work. It offered no detail that she actually was sick. I suppose I could push back on that (maybe? I'd have to check with HR), but I'm not going to.

Wait, "doctor's note" is actually just a handwritten note? We have an official document with diagnosis that goes into database (and you get paid based on it), otherwise you can't get sick leave at all.

[wolfking]

I think if you get a doctor's note, you shouldn't receive any points at all.

I tend to agree, however, it's not difficult to get a doctor's note in the US. The woman in question went to a drop in clinic and got a note clearing her for return to work. It offered no detail that she actually was sick. I suppose I could push back on that (maybe? I'd have to check with HR), but I'm not going to.

Same here.  Doctors will write notes for anyone and anything to get them in and out.  I see it often with my employees.

I can definitely see where Ruslan is coming from though.

[lordxizor]

Let me play devil's advocate here.  If someone constantly calls out it's not fair for those showing up every day.  I know damn well that employees talk about others and then point to favoritism or it's unfair I have to be here all the time.  That's why, doctor's note protect that employee.  It's proof.  Most who need a mental day off are not willing to sit in a doctors office to get a note.

Yeah, but everyone gets the same amount of PTO (based on longevity), and it's up to each person how they choose to use it. I agree that it's not cool to consistently call in sick, especially when you know you're going to do it and could have given advance notice. It's only favoritism if I deny PTO for some people but not others or apply the attendance policy to some but not others. In my case, my other folks are annoyed with this woman because they know I'm going to have to start keeping track of attendance points for everyone because she's taking advantage of the situation.

I think if you get a doctor's note, you shouldn't receive any points at all.

I tend to agree, however, it's not difficult to get a doctor's note in the US. The woman in question went to a drop in clinic and got a note clearing her for return to work. It offered no detail that she actually was sick. I suppose I could push back on that (maybe? I'd have to check with HR), but I'm not going to.

Wait, "doctor's note" is actually just a handwritten note? We have an official document with diagnosis that goes into database (and you get paid based on it), otherwise you can't get sick leave at all.

It's not handwritten, but it's just typed out by the doctor in the clinic on the clinic letterhead.

[Grappler]

Me:  Mr. Client, your workers compensation insurer has not received your response to the annual policy audit.  Please be sure to send your quarterly payroll reports to them by X date so they can complete the audit.

Client:  ............

Me 30 days later:  Mr. Client, the insurer still has not received them.  They will issue a non-compliant audit and double your annual premium if you do not response by Y date.

Client.......

Me:  Mr. Client, enclosed is your non-productive audit, generating an additional premium of $3,000.00.

Client......

Client:  OMG YOU HAVE TO HELP ME, I RECEIVED A BILL FOR $3,000.00 AND WE HAVE TO GET THIS FIXED IMMEDIATELY! 

 

[Evermind]

I think if you get a doctor's note, you shouldn't receive any points at all.

I tend to agree, however, it's not difficult to get a doctor's note in the US. The woman in question went to a drop in clinic and got a note clearing her for return to work. It offered no detail that she actually was sick. I suppose I could push back on that (maybe? I'd have to check with HR), but I'm not going to.

Same here.  Doctors will write notes for anyone and anything to get them in and out.  I see it often with my employees.

I can definitely see where Ruslan is coming from though.

Yeah, the fact it's easy to get a doctor's note if you're not even sick is also bullshit then, but that's the problem with the system in that case. Because imagine, if I'm usually always there, but one day I'm hallucinating with fever and can't even properly stand up (which happened last time I took sick leave) and after that, what a joy, I get only 1 measly absence point instead of the potential 2.5 point package... well I would still be pissed off.

Or better yet, we have women - mothers with young kids - on our team. It's flu season, kids are getting sick left and right in kindergartens/schools. We had one girl take 5 weeks of official sick leave during November/December because her kid was sick a few times, he would get better and then get sick again. It sure sucked but what's the alternative, fire her? Screw women with kids and elderly, let's hire young healthy men only? Where does that road lead? (probably to P/R  )

I guess I'm a bit passionate about this.

[lordxizor]

I think if you get a doctor's note, you shouldn't receive any points at all.

I tend to agree, however, it's not difficult to get a doctor's note in the US. The woman in question went to a drop in clinic and got a note clearing her for return to work. It offered no detail that she actually was sick. I suppose I could push back on that (maybe? I'd have to check with HR), but I'm not going to.

Same here.  Doctors will write notes for anyone and anything to get them in and out.  I see it often with my employees.

I can definitely see where Ruslan is coming from though.

Yeah, the fact it's easy to get a doctor's note if you're not even sick is also bullshit then, but that's the problem with the system in that case. Because imagine, if I'm usually always there, but one day I'm hallucinating with fever and can't even properly stand up (which happened last time I took sick leave) and after that, what a joy, I get only 1 measly absence point instead of the potential 2.5 point package... well I would still be pissed off.

Or better yet, we have women - mothers with young kids - on our team. It's flu season, kids are getting sick left and right in kindergartens/schools. We had one girl take 5 weeks of official sick leave during November/December because her kid was sick a few times, he would get better and then get sick again. It sure sucked but what's the alternative, fire her? Screw women with kids and elderly, let's hire young healthy men only? Where does that road lead? (probably to P/R  )

I guess I'm a bit passionate about this.

In theory, I am in complete agreement with you. We should not punish people for being sick and staying away from work to protect their coworkers from getting sick, or taking care of their bodies so they can come back to work later, or taking care of their sick kids.

On the note thing, this woman's "illnesses" (which are sometimes legit, but just not always) are things like back pain and migraines. These cannot really be tested for or diagnosed by a doctor. She just tells them she was out for three days with a debilitating migraine, which is now just fine, but she needs a note to satisfy some dumb policy. Doctor just writes the note so they can more on to the next patient. I'm not sure of a way to fix that system.

[wolfking]

I think if you get a doctor's note, you shouldn't receive any points at all.

I tend to agree, however, it's not difficult to get a doctor's note in the US. The woman in question went to a drop in clinic and got a note clearing her for return to work. It offered no detail that she actually was sick. I suppose I could push back on that (maybe? I'd have to check with HR), but I'm not going to.

Same here.  Doctors will write notes for anyone and anything to get them in and out.  I see it often with my employees.

I can definitely see where Ruslan is coming from though.

Yeah, the fact it's easy to get a doctor's note if you're not even sick is also bullshit then, but that's the problem with the system in that case. Because imagine, if I'm usually always there, but one day I'm hallucinating with fever and can't even properly stand up (which happened last time I took sick leave) and after that, what a joy, I get only 1 measly absence point instead of the potential 2.5 point package... well I would still be pissed off.

Or better yet, we have women - mothers with young kids - on our team. It's flu season, kids are getting sick left and right in kindergartens/schools. We had one girl take 5 weeks of official sick leave during November/December because her kid was sick a few times, he would get better and then get sick again. It sure sucked but what's the alternative, fire her? Screw women with kids and elderly, let's hire young healthy men only? Where does that road lead? (probably to P/R  )

I guess I'm a bit passionate about this.

No, I do agree with you.  It's a system error.  It's the assholes definitely ruining for people who are actually sick.  Just seems the way of society these days.

[cramx3]

No, I do agree with you.  It's a system error.  It's the assholes definitely ruining for people who are actually sick.  Just seems the way of society these days.

That goes back to what King was saying.  THere's always the one person abusing the system that in turn makes the rest of the team suffer.  But I don't think you should adjust the system for these situations.  I would say, theoretically, it's best to get rid of the bad apple, but we all know it's never that simple. 

I'm just glad I work for a company that does seem to value their workers and respects their PTO (even encourages the full usage of it).  I've been at jobs in the past where you felt like you couldn't take a sick day at all, and if you did, you got hit hard with it (either no pay or disrespect from others). 

[King Postwhore]

Let me play devil's advocate here.  If someone constantly calls out it's not fair for those showing up every day.  I know damn well that employees talk about others and then point to favoritism or it's unfair I have to be here all the time.  That's why, doctor's note protect that employee.  It's proof.  Most who need a mental day off are not willing to sit in a doctors office to get a note.

Yeah, but everyone gets the same amount of PTO (based on longevity), and it's up to each person how they choose to use it. I agree that it's not cool to consistently call in sick, especially when you know you're going to do it and could have given advance notice. It's only favoritism if I deny PTO for some people but not others or apply the attendance policy to some but not others. In my case, my other folks are annoyed with this woman because they know I'm going to have to start keeping track of attendance points for everyone because she's taking advantage of the situation.

I think if you get a doctor's note, you shouldn't receive any points at all.

I tend to agree, however, it's not difficult to get a doctor's note in the US. The woman in question went to a drop in clinic and got a note clearing her for return to work. It offered no detail that she actually was sick. I suppose I could push back on that (maybe? I'd have to check with HR), but I'm not going to.

Wait, "doctor's note" is actually just a handwritten note? We have an official document with diagnosis that goes into database (and you get paid based on it), otherwise you can't get sick leave at all.

It's not handwritten, but it's just typed out by the doctor in the clinic on the clinic letterhead.

Not everyone gets the sane about of pto where I work. They accrue at different levels. The longer you work there, the better %.

I look at it as you took the time to go to the doctor,  you're sick.  Who spends a day off wasting time to get an excuse. Plus, most are too lazy to do so. 

[Chino]

I'm in a weird spot.

My current Mon-Fri is a shit show and has been for a while. There was some reorganizing in the department last year, and the changes made have since lead to some turmoil within. The issues bubbling up have made me dread coming into work more than usual.

It should also be noted that since November 2018, I've had a weekend job for a family-run grocery store that I worked for in high school from Sept 2005 to Dec 2013. That company has 4 locations, one of which is in a very affluent town in CT called Salisbury. That location has an opening for a Deli/Kitchen/Bakery manager that'd be responsible for 30 employees or so. I worked that location a decade ago and it's my favorite of the 4 stores by far. I reached out to the owner of the company as well as the store director (A guy I worked alongside 15 years ago at one of the other locations). While not a done deal, it is very likely I can make that position mine if I want to.

There are some downsides though. I'd have to go into work 5 days a week now instead of 3 (hybrid schedule), and it's another 25 miles a day as well. My weekly mileage is going to go from 210 to 450, which really blows. The pay is also $10K-$13K less than I'm making now with only a 4% 401K match contribution (currently 6%). I'd lose 8 days of PTO as well. However, I actually like that kind of work, and I think it'd do my mental health wonders to get out of the corporate structure. My fiance makes more than I do currently and we're doing fine, so I'm not overly worried about the financial side of things.

The timing of this opening is borderline perfect given my feelings about my current gig. I've got some thinking to do.

[cramx3]

Money can't buy happiness and the stars may have just aligned.  Got to go where the heart is.

[KevShmev]

While I agree with cramx3, I would think long and hard about taking a job that is going to add that much more transit time to your daily routine. Maybe I am spoiled because I have never lived more than 15 minutes from where I worked, but I cannot imagine spending 60-90 minutes a day driving to and from work.  The stress you save in leaving your current job could be replaced by the aggravation of the free time you will lose thanks to extra driving.

[wolfking]

Not to mention doing that 5 times a week instead of 3.  Perhaps it's fallen in your lap at the right time, but sometimes the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Although dreading going to work isn't good.  I'm actually experiencing that a little more than normal and it's not healthy at all.

[Chino]

I already drive a minimum of 50 minutes each way, so the additional time (ablut 10 minutes each way) is negligible. The two extra days is what really sucks, but I've come to terms with that not being the norm and I should be happy that I got to do that for as long as I did.

[cramx3]

I think my opinion might be different if Chino didn't mention his fiance having a solid job.

For me personally, I don't think I could take the drop in income AND an increase in commute expenses based on my solo income. 

But you can't measure happiness easily.  I'm not in Chino's shoes, but I've read many posts about not enjoying the job.  At some point, somethings got to change.

[Skeever]

My gripe is a weird one and sounds like a first world problem but here goes.

I am bored.

Out of my mind bored.


My boss doesn't like hard to please employees, so I just hang in there, moving work tabs around on my comp while listening to music. Sometimes it does get busier and that's fun.

My boss is also retiring after bonuses drop in June, so it's limbo until then.

I've got not idea what to do. Or where to look. Or how to solve this dilemma.

I'm bored out of my freakin mind.

[jingle.boy]

Not to mention doing that 5 times a week instead of 3.  Perhaps it's fallen in your lap at the right time, but sometimes the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Although dreading going to work isn't good.  I'm actually experiencing that a little more than normal and it's not healthy at all.

Shit man... for you, "more than normal" must be hell on Earth.  #funnynotfunny

[wolfking]

Not to mention doing that 5 times a week instead of 3.  Perhaps it's fallen in your lap at the right time, but sometimes the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Although dreading going to work isn't good.  I'm actually experiencing that a little more than normal and it's not healthy at all.

Shit man... for you, "more than normal" must be hell on Earth.  #funnynotfunny

Lol, kinda funny I guess.

[TAC]

I'm in a weird spot.

My current Mon-Fri is a shit show and has been for a while. There was some reorganizing in the department last year, and the changes made have since lead to some turmoil within. The issues bubbling up have made me dread coming into work more than usual.

It should also be noted that since November 2018, I've had a weekend job for a family-run grocery store that I worked for in high school from Sept 2005 to Dec 2013. That company has 4 locations, one of which is in a very affluent town in CT called Salisbury. That location has an opening for a Deli/Kitchen/Bakery manager that'd be responsible for 30 employees or so. I worked that location a decade ago and it's my favorite of the 4 stores by far. I reached out to the owner of the company as well as the store director (A guy I worked alongside 15 years ago at one of the other locations). While not a done deal, it is very likely I can make that position mine if I want to.

There are some downsides though. I'd have to go into work 5 days a week now instead of 3 (hybrid schedule), and it's another 25 miles a day as well. My weekly mileage is going to go from 210 to 450, which really blows. The pay is also $10K-$13K less than I'm making now with only a 4% 401K match contribution (currently 6%). I'd lose 8 days of PTO as well. However, I actually like that kind of work, and I think it'd do my mental health wonders to get out of the corporate structure. My fiance makes more than I do currently and we're doing fine, so I'm not overly worried about the financial side of things.

The timing of this opening is borderline perfect given my feelings about my current gig. I've got some thinking to do.

I already drive a minimum of 50 minutes each way, so the additional time (ablut 10 minutes each way) is negligible. The two extra days is what really sucks, but I've come to terms with that not being the norm and I should be happy that I got to do that for as long as I did.

Chino, if you don't mind me asking... What is it that you do now? Do you have experience managing people, product flow? Retail part time can be kind of fun, but Retail full time is a whole 'nuther animal.


Also, regarding the ride, 50 min one way is a hike, but when you factor in the 3 days of your regular job, and the two weekend trips to the market, you're actually driving to work 5 days a week now, right?

[Chino]

I'm a Business Analyst for an insurer with a focus on our internal modelling of catastrophic events and how it impacts our view of risk. 

I've never managed people, no. But I've built dozens of workflows over the years for pretty complex systems. I've worked with coaches to learn entirely new methodologies (waterfall to agile), developed new cadences with leadership, and then knowledge transferred that to a department of 50. I've been an acting scrum master for the last 18 months, and have lead our audit compliance management for the last 7 years. So I'm not a stranger to managing things.

I've worked retail full time before. It can definitely suck if you're forward facing with the customers all day, but this position wouldn't be much of that. While this is retail, it's not big box retail. This is a family run business and a relative small operation, but they service a higher end clientele. The 4 locations did $52M last year. The location I'd be managing is in a friendly old money town, where everyone knows everyone's name and where the celebs from NY come to hide.

I only work Sundays at the market now. There was a period of time when I was doing both weekend days, but that was some years ago. As of now my driving schedule is:

Monday: WFH
Tuesday: 74 miles
Wednesday: 74 miles
Thursday: 74 miles
Friday: WFH
Saturday: Day Off
Sunday: 24 miles.

So I'm working 6 days and driving 4 of them. I maybe failed to convey it in my original email, but taking this job would also give me an additional day off each week, which makes the pay cut easier to swallow. I haven't had a 5 day work week in 4.5 years now.

[TAC]

OK, sounds like you have a good base as far as relating to people. Plus, you're not a kid, and based on your posts here, they are usually common sensical (sorry Stads!)

Good luck! Managing people can be a great daily gift, but it can also suck too.

You're not a stranger to the environment so that's a huge plus.


I've spent my entire adult life working for a major chain grocery store, so I find this sort of thing interesting.

[wolfking]

From my experience, not sure I I would go from a job where I'm not managing people to a job with less money managing 30.  As Tim said, it's had its rewards but it's a damn nightmare too at times.

[Podaar]

A deli at an affluent grocer could be a lot of fun. Hope it works out for you, Chino.

[Phoenix87x]

When I need management to handle something, they blow me off or tell me to figure it out myself.

But when I don't want them involved, then they love to jump right in and screw it up 10x worse then the original problem was.