Better Call Saul (SPOILERS)

[MinistroRaven]

I am excited.

[SoundscapeMN]

Terrific 2-episode premiere tonight, although it seemed to raise more questions than answer them in a lot of ways.

I was just looking at the schedule for the air dates, and this final season seems to be split into 2 halves in that, the 1st 7 episodes will air tonight through May 23rd.

Then there's 7 weeks off.

The last 6 episodes will air beginning on July 11th through August 15th.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3032476/episodes?season=6

So the entire Month of June is a break. Unsure why, but just to build the hype of the ending the series more?

Breaking Bad its final season took 11 months off between the 1st and 2nd half, going from September 2nd, 2012, until August 11th, 2013.

I seem to recall Lost and maybe Battlestar Galactica doing something similar their final seasons as well.

[faizoff]

So the entire Month of June is a break. Unsure why, but just to build the hype of the ending the series more?

This was announced a while back that they will be splitting the season, though most shows that split the final season have a large gap like you said, from what I read this is for award eligibility apparently. So BCS will be eligible for two years instead of the one. I haven't checked up myself but that seems to be the reasoning.


That was a phenomenal two episodes, the story weaving on these was immaculate and couldn't have been crafted any better.


Kim was brutal, just fucking brutal. That opening montage! first time in color! When they showed the brief nudity warning, and then showed the statues and paintings, I thought oh that's the nudity warning for? but then they show us Jimmy's ass lolll


Just fantastic opening for the season, I dare say this is now above breaking bad territory for me.

[KevShmev]

Kim is irredeemable at this point.  Assuming she doesn't get a good ending, she has definitely earned whatever is eventually coming her way.  Howard is a twit, but to try and destroy his life like she is doing is just scummy.

Given that Gus knew where Nacho was, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have had him killed right away. He cannot afford for Hector's family to get to him first and get it out of him that Gus ordered the hit on Lalo (Lalo being alive or dead doesn't really change that).  Nacho surviving and then escaping the motel shootout seemed a bit far-fetched, but okay.

Loved seeing the return of the Kettlemans, although as a red-blooded male , I was a bit stunned at how much Julie Ann Emery has aged.
 

[gmillerdrake]

Kim was brutal, just fucking brutal.

Kim is irredeemable at this point.  Assuming she doesn't get a good ending, she has definitely earned whatever is eventually coming her way. 

Yep. For the longest time I was feeling 'sorry' for her character that she had seemingly been wrapped up with Jimmy and 'led' down that road. But....it's painfully obvious that she not only enjoys and seeks the mischief out, she's pretty much the one building up Jimmy to go 'all in' on Saul Goodman.

If I had to guess her fate it's that Jimmy bails on taking out Howard and she keeps going.....ultimately getting busted, disbarred and sent to prison. Heck....I wouldn't be surprised if it's Jimmy who alerts/assists Howard in doing so. You can see he's reluctant already.


I thought a really cool subtle aspect of the episode as well was the two different approaches each side of the drug cartel took in searching Nacho's apartment. Gus's crew was methodical, measured, precise and 'clean'......while the other crew utterly destroyed everything in a haphazard manner....even nearly destroying the evidence they were looking for. Neat detail and nuance that I love about how the show is written and presented.

I dare say this is now above breaking bad territory for me.

This show surpassed BB for me in S3. Not that I don't still adore BB but I just think BCS is essentially a master class in writing by Vince Gilligan that was honed in BB. And, not that BB wasn'y littered with great acting talent because it was....but for my money across the board the performances in BCS outweigh the across the board performances in BB. I know it's all subjective but count me firmly on board the 'BCS is "better" than BB" train.

[MinistroRaven]

WOW, what a great 2 eps. Man, I feel bad for Kim, but yeah, I suspect she's not going to end well.

[KevShmev]

I am not getting into the "BCS is better than BB" talk (spoiler: it's not ), but one of the things I am interested to see is how Gus and Mike's working relationship turns.  Mike has had several disagreements with Gus on things in BCS thus far, and we all know that by the time we get to BB, Mike is crazy loyal to him and never questions him or considers turning on him (even after Walt dangled it in the bar after Victor was killed by the box cutter), so things will have to play out in a way where Gus fully earns Mike's unyielding trust and loyalty.

[El Barto]

Robert Forster, who played the disappear-er, died, and I don't see them getting another actor to play that role, so I doubt they will go that route.

I don't think that'd be a problem. She'd just pick up the phone and order the part--end of Kim.  I still think the fact that Jimmy's in Omaha is a big clue that she's alive enough to see him, though; probably why he went there.

Well, the thing with Kim is, she has been breaking bad for a while, but the difference between her and Jimmy is that while his natural instincts are to do the wrong or shady thing, I do not think Kim's are, but Jimmy and circumstances have brought out the worst in her.  If she ends up with a bad ending, she will have earned it.

Couldn't disagree more. Jimmy might have brought her natural instincts to the surface, but Kim gets off hard on being bad. Literally. She's Dangergirl. Go back and watch her reaction after ripping off Ken Wins. And there are other examples where being bad gets her all gooey. That's all on her. But, I agree about the consequences. Those are on her, too.

All I know, is that Jimmy and Kim have been my favorite couple of all time.  We just wish they could go off in the distance with a lot of money and do what they've proven they could do.....  help the misfortunate.

As much as we're looking forward to this final season, their parting is going to be very painful.  We're just hoping it is not 10,000 daggers painful.

I agree, minus the Victor Hugo aspect.

And with that I guess I abandon this thread for a few months.

[Chino]

Loved the first two episodes of the season. I have to say, I think this show tops Breaking Bad for me. It's almost tainted Breaking Bad for me in a sense. After seeing the backstory of all the key players, and how truly hardcore all of them are (in spirit, reach, and capabilities), I have a hard time believing Walter White would have gotten as far as he did with Gus and beyond.

I'm wondering how and when they're going to tie Walter back into this story. It must be after they meet in Breaking Bad, no? The scene when they had Saul in the ditch with a bag on his head? I wonder how much crossover we'll actually get between the two timelines.

@Gary

I thought a really cool subtle aspect of the episode as well was the two different approaches each side of the drug cartel took in searching Nacho's apartment. Gus's crew was methodical, measured, precise and 'clean'......while the other crew utterly destroyed everything in a haphazard manner....even nearly destroying the evidence they were looking for. Neat detail and nuance that I love about how the show is written and presented.

I found myself thinking of that scene a lot on the way to work this morning. While Gus is always neat and methodical, that approach was really necessary in this instance. Gus needed the apartment to look like it hadn't been touched so there was no suspicion surrounding the planted letter in the safe. I did ask myself during the episode "I wonder if they turned the case on it's back so the delicates fell as far from the cutting wheel as possible?".


 

[gmillerdrake]

I have to say, I think this show tops Breaking Bad for me.

Kev....we're up 2-1   

I found myself thinking of that scene a lot on the way to work this morning. While Gus is always neat and methodical, that approach was really necessary in this instance. Gus needed the apartment to look like it hadn't been touched so there was no suspicion surrounding the planted letter in the safe. I did ask myself during the episode "I wonder if they turned the case on it's back so the delicates fell as far from the cutting wheel as possible?".

True....Gus needed the covert aspect, and I see your point about them tipping the safe. I just think that Gilligan always has a purpose to every shot and detail and the two scenes were stark contrasts of one another....I have to believe that was intentional.

[Chino]

Oh for sure. No doubt!

[faizoff]

The directing on both shows has always been amazing.I think Vince has said his involvement in the show has reduced a lot and it's largely a Peter Gould show at this point. Either way he laid the blue print for everyone and the directing has been top notch.  I'm excited to see Rhea Seehorn's and Giancarlo Esposito's directorial debuts this season.






Also ep1 thoughts:

It took me way too long to figure out that Lalo set up that man, from the family at the beginning of the episode, to look like his twin and even had the dentist work be identical to set up as a decoy.

[gmillerdrake]

It took me way too long to figure out that Lalo set up that man, from the family at the beginning of the episode, to look like his twin and even had the dentist work be identical to set up as a decoy.

Yeah.....talk about the long play and having a plan before you even need a plan.....freaking Lalo is pretty sinister.

[Chino]

It took me way too long to figure out that Lalo set up that man, from the family at the beginning of the episode, to look like his twin and even had the dentist work be identical to set up as a decoy.

Yeah.....talk about the long play and having a plan before you even need a plan.....freaking Lalo is pretty sinister.

I picked up on the shaving aspect to that plan pretty early on, but I'm still not getting the dental records part. How, even with enough lead time, can you make someone else's teeth match yours?

[gmillerdrake]

It took me way too long to figure out that Lalo set up that man, from the family at the beginning of the episode, to look like his twin and even had the dentist work be identical to set up as a decoy.

Yeah.....talk about the long play and having a plan before you even need a plan.....freaking Lalo is pretty sinister.

I picked up on the shaving aspect to that plan pretty early on, but I'm still not getting the dental records part. How, even with enough lead time, can you make someone else's teeth match yours?

I don't know? Matthew Perry did it for Bruce Willis in 'The Whole 9 Yards' though.

[faizoff]

It took me way too long to figure out that Lalo set up that man, from the family at the beginning of the episode, to look like his twin and even had the dentist work be identical to set up as a decoy.

Yeah.....talk about the long play and having a plan before you even need a plan.....freaking Lalo is pretty sinister.

I picked up on the shaving aspect to that plan pretty early on, but I'm still not getting the dental records part. How, even with enough lead time, can you make someone else's teeth match yours?

It could be something very simple like the dentist taking the dental records of the fall guy and reporting them as Lalos.

[KevShmev]

I have to say, I think this show tops Breaking Bad for me.

Kev....we're up 2-1   
 

Prisoners of the moment.

And I am sure if you polled the public at large, it would be a landslide.  Better Call Saul, assuming it ends well which I think it well, will go down as a really good dramatic TV show. Breaking Bad's legacy as one of the greatest ever is already set in stone.

[KevShmev]

Robert Forster, who played the disappear-er, died, and I don't see them getting another actor to play that role, so I doubt they will go that route.

I don't think that'd be a problem. She'd just pick up the phone and order the part--end of Kim.  I still think the fact that Jimmy's in Omaha is a big clue that she's alive enough to see him, though; probably why he went there.

Not sure I agree.  I don't think him going to Omaha was a calculated move, as he randomly threw it out there to Walt in their conversation in the penultimate episode of BB that he'd end up there, and of course Gilligan, being cheeky as he is, put him there.  They could always write the finish of BCS to make it less random than it appeared to be, but that runs the risk of being contrived.

Well, the thing with Kim is, she has been breaking bad for a while, but the difference between her and Jimmy is that while his natural instincts are to do the wrong or shady thing, I do not think Kim's are, but Jimmy and circumstances have brought out the worst in her.  If she ends up with a bad ending, she will have earned it.

Couldn't disagree more. Jimmy might have brought her natural instincts to the surface, but Kim gets off hard on being bad. Literally. She's Dangergirl. Go back and watch her reaction after ripping off Ken Wins. And there are other examples where being bad gets her all gooey. That's all on her. But, I agree about the consequences. Those are on her, too.

 

You might be right.   Even Jimmy seemed a bit put off by how far she went when she was annihilating the Kettlemens this week, so her urges to be bad might be worse than Jimmy's.

[El Barto]

Robert Forster, who played the disappear-er, died, and I don't see them getting another actor to play that role, so I doubt they will go that route.

I don't think that'd be a problem. She'd just pick up the phone and order the part--end of Kim.  I still think the fact that Jimmy's in Omaha is a big clue that she's alive enough to see him, though; probably why he went there.

Not sure I agree.  I don't think him going to Omaha was a calculated move, as he randomly threw it out there to Walt in their conversation in the penultimate episode of BB that he'd end up there, and of course Gilligan, being cheeky as he is, put him there.  They could always write the finish of BCS to make it less random than it appeared to be, but that runs the risk of being contrived.

I just don't see VG dropping so many hints that she's from the neighborhood for Omaha to be a coincidence. He's spent 5 years establishing where she's from. Jimmy went there for a reason, even if it doesn't pay off in the end.

You might be right.   Even Jimmy seemed a bit put off by how far she went when she was annihilating the Kettlemens this week, so her urges to be bad might be worse than Jimmy's.

Since I really dig Kim for a variety of reasons I've been paying close attention to her character. No idea what she's up to with the Kettlemens, I thought they were gone, but she's definitely not the good girl she's been trying to portray. I've been enjoying the transition.

The girl's an adrenaline junky and never knew it. Danger turns her on (literally). I never really had much question about her motivation, which started as soon as she became Giselle. We see it reflected in her growing boredom with the law. As Judge Neelix pointed out she's looking for something to restore her passion in it. Working PD certainly helps, but working the system has a better payoff.

It hadn't occurred to me until now, but Giselle is Saul. While people have been clamoring for some mystical transformation from Jimmy to Saul, it's Kim who's undergoing the transformation from good girl to criminal lawyer.

I said last season that Kim was actually Saul Goodman, and I nailed it. She's far more into this sort of thing than Jimmy is at this point, and she gets off on it.

[MirrorMask]

Finally saw the two episodes as well. Great stuff, as always.

On the "which show is better" thing, I remember having said, and I stand by it, that BCS while being its own thing stands on BB's shoulders. Everything the writer learnt through creating BB, was used as an experience to build BCS upon BB's legacy, fandom and characters.

A fairer comparison would have been between BB, and another unrelated show by the same creators, but by building upon BB's world, and with more experience by the writers, BCS has a lot of advantages in appearing better than BB.

Anway, both shows are awesome, so no harm in playing favorites!

About the characters, I don't see things going so well for Nacho. And of course Kim.... I can't see a happy ending for her, I agree that it's very likely that her attempts to take Howard down will be her undoing, and that Saul Goodman will just move on.

[MinistroRaven]

I agree that BCS stands on BB’s shoulders. And it makes me think would we have watched a better Breaking Bad IF We would have gotten BCS first and BB second? Man, we would never know, but it makes me wonder.

[KevShmev]

I can ignore the actors looking way older while playing younger versions of themselves (especially Jonathan Banks), but they have quite a few things to work towards to make everything line up with what happened in Breaking Bad.

-We have seen several examples in BCS of Mike not liking Gus' decisions and even questioning them at times, but in BB, Mike was super loyal and never questioned anything.  Maybe Gus will find a way to let Mike spare Nacho that will earn Mike's trust one and for all that is then there in the BB timeline.

-It feels like many think Lalo will die, but in BB when Jesse and Walt kidnap Saul (in the first ep where we see Saul), Saul was terrified that Lalo had sent them, so in Saul's mind right then and there on BB, Lalo was still alive, so either Lalo lives or he dies somehow and Saul is unaware of it. And remember that BCS is still, I think, several years behind in the timeline of when BB begins (unless I forgot about a time jump at some point that makes it closer).

-We never knew much about Saul's private life in BB, and we didn't need to because that was Walter White's story and Saul's personal life was irrelevant to the story, but how the Kim story plays out needs to make sense with his behavior in BB.  Throughout most of BCS, Saul has always been hesitant (for the lack of a better term) about anyone being offed, but right off the bat in BB, he is recommending shanking Badger in the chow line in prison to solve Walt and Jesse's problem, and later when Jesse was in the hospital after Hank beat him up, he not so subtly suggested to Walt that drastic measures might need to be taken in regards to Jesse if he does not "come around." 

[KevShmev]

Holy shit. 

[faizoff]

Holy fucking shit is right!!!! God what an episode.

[gmillerdrake]

Holy shit. 

Holy fucking shit is right!!!! God what an episode.

 

[MinistroRaven]

Holy shit. 

Holy fucking shit is right!!!! God what an episode.

 

I am in shock!!!

[axeman90210]

Great, great episode.

[gmillerdrake]

Holy shit. 

Holy fucking shit is right!!!! God what an episode.

 

I am in shock!!!

I had hoped that the Nacho storyline would have somehow ended on a happier note....but I know that was totally unrealistic and couldn't happen. I suppose him getting assured that his Dad was free and clear was about as happy an ending that could have happened. The look Mike gave him when exiting the van was brutal.....but man, the whole episode was so well done.

[Elite]

God dammit. That was not the ending I was ready for.
I loved the opening sequence, very beautifully shot, and thought it would have to do with the final scene and it did. You know that the moment he did the thing you knew it would end badly, because of how characters end up alive in Breaking Bad, but still, that was unexpected.

[MirrorMask]

It's only the third episode. ONLY THE THIRD.

What a way for Nacho to go. Like a total badass champions, on his own terms. "When you are sitting in your shitty nursing home and you're sucking down on your Jell-o night after night for the rest of life, you think of me, you twisted fuck" is right up there along with "Tell Cersei, I want her to know it was me".

[KevShmev]

Spoilers is in the title, so probably no need for the smaller font, yes?

Honestly, I am not sure this saves his father.  Maybe if it had played out like it was planned, but with his rant and letting Hector know about the pills, I don't see the Salamancas letting this matter drop.

[MirrorMask]

He also covered brilliantly Gus' ass, with the "I had to watch this asshole bring you back" part. He told them all off, and sold that he was so angry at all of them that he gladly betrayed them, without need for external motivations (Gus interfering).

Lalo however won't let the matter drop, maybe that's how he goes out.... he goes after Nacho's dad and Mike stays true to his word.

Another brilliant thing of that scene, that in no doubt will go down as one of the best scenes in the BrBa universe, is that - as pointed out in an interview by Michael Mando (Nacho) himself - all those characters are dead, they just don't know it yet. They're on top of their world and they got rid of Nacho but a few years later down the road, a frustated chemistry teacher will bring them all down more or less indirectly.

[Elite]

Lalo still has to go down. I bet Mike will have something to do with that indeed.

[Chino]

I was thinking Nacho was going to blow his brains out in the garage after talking to his dad. I was waiting for the camera to be on the mechanic working under the hood and then hearing the gunshot in the background or something. Yet somehow, when we got to his time, it took me by complete surprise.

Great episode.

[KevShmev]

He also covered brilliantly Gus' ass, with the "I had to watch this asshole bring you back" part. He told them all off, and sold that he was so angry at all of them that he gladly betrayed them, without need for external motivations (Gus interfering).

Lalo however won't let the matter drop, maybe that's how he goes out.... he goes after Nacho's dad and Mike stays true to his word.

Another brilliant thing of that scene, that in no doubt will go down as one of the best scenes in the BrBa universe, is that - as pointed out in an interview by Michael Mando (Nacho) himself - all those characters are dead, they just don't know it yet. They're on top of their world and they got rid of Nacho but a few years later down the road, a frustated chemistry teacher will bring them all down more or less indirectly.

Yep, everyone else in the scene dies in BB, and Walt or Gus are responsible for the deaths of each.

Gus, Hector and Tyrus all die from the bomb Walt gave Hector.

Victor was killed by Gus.

Mike was killed by Walt.

Juan Bolsa was killed in the raid obviously arranged by Gus.

The cousins were killed by Hank (thanks to Gus' having Mike call Hank to warn him) and Mike (in the hospital, under Gus' orders).