Better Call Saul (SPOILERS)

[KevShmev]

I am glad Jeff was not mentioned after Jimmy was caught.   He was a doofus whose character was no longer an integral part of the plot once Jimmy was arrested.  Great decision.

I also liked how they didn't insult our intelligence by having Jimmy become some street smart criminal who was able to evade the cops for any duration.  He was a con man and a criminal lawyer, not a savvy street smart guy, so getting caught right away made a ton of sense.

[MirrorMask]

Great wrap up to the series. I still don't like how the last four episodes were handled, but it was still good and the kind of ending I think we all needed.

See it this way: Better Call Saul ended with Kim and Jimmy splitting up, fueling his full descent into the Saul Goodman persona.

The last four episodes are an epilogue for Breaking Bad, and closure for Kim's character arc.

[gmillerdrake]

Also, what a big, gigantic F U to Walter White. A man so consumed by "his pride and ego" (RIP Mike) outed as someone who would have been dead or in jail in a month, had it not been for Saul Goodman guiding him, mentoring him and introducing him to Gus. I don't know how famous Saul's "confession" will become in-universe, but what a way to ruin the legacy of the great, terrible Heisenberg. Screw you Walt, that's payback for being a condescending, uptight asshole when someone asks you about a time machine 

Very true....and while Jimmy was saying this and making this point I was thinking to myself he's just saying this to try and make himself look good and for his own ego boost. But then, when you really consider everything he said....he's spot on. Heisenberg never exists without 'Saul', plain and simple.

[MirrorMask]

That's what the authors probably meant when they said that we would have seen Breaking Bad under a new light. Yeah, Walter was the protagonist, but we now know Saul Goodman had a bigger role in creating Heisenberg than any of us realized.

[Nel]

It's really rare that a show I like ends up giving me everything I wanted and more as it sticks the landing. Even more impressive that a prequel/sequel was able to do it.

[DoctorAction]

What a show BCS was. Great, great stuff. Changed the way I see TV. Loved it. Going to miss it.

And, even though I guess they wouldn't want to risk their record, I fancy a Take The Fall Saul series from prison. 

[MirrorMask]

It went beyond my wildest expectations.

I don't really remember what I thought about it when it was announced - I've seen Breaking Bad over the course of a year only after it has finished (I saw it from 2013 to 2014), and Better Call Saul was just a fun show to follow whenever it came out. I  remember "binging" the first seasons only after they were released (I consider binging wathcing one episode per day), this is the only one I followed in real time if I remember correctly.

Anyway, I thought it would have been "just" the origin story of Saul Goodman. Jimmy slowly becomes Saul, and we see him doing Goodman-ish things, with some added bonus from seeing Mike and Gus.

I would have never anticipated it would become the giant it turned out to be. Probably not even the writers did - I expected it all to be with the same levity of the first season, that it would have all been skateboard twins and Kettlemans. What a glorious ride it has been.

The writers are basically the Dream Theater of TV shows, they could have done - like it was their initial idea - a comedy with week by week cases by Saul Goodman, but no, they had to create a compelling drama on par with Breaking Bad, just like DT told themselves "let's write a short epic" and came out instead with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence 

[KevShmev]

That's what the authors probably meant when they said that we would have seen Breaking Bad under a new light. Yeah, Walter was the protagonist, but we now know Saul Goodman had a bigger role in creating Heisenberg than any of us realized.

I don't agree with this part. I think it was obvious watching Breaking Bad that Saul was integral in helping Walt.  Without Saul, who knows what happens when Badger got arrested, and without Saul, Walt never gets hooked up with Gus.  That was clear as day when watching BB. 

[MinistroRaven]

BCS items for auctions

https://propstoreauction.com/auctions/catalog/id/342

[gmillerdrake]

That's what the authors probably meant when they said that we would have seen Breaking Bad under a new light. Yeah, Walter was the protagonist, but we now know Saul Goodman had a bigger role in creating Heisenberg than any of us realized.

I don't agree with this part. I think it was obvious watching Breaking Bad that Saul was integral in helping Walt.  Without Saul, who knows what happens when Badger got arrested, and without Saul, Walt never gets hooked up with Gus.  That was clear as day when watching BB.

Yeah....I think those who watched BB understood that Saul was a cornerstone and vital part of what Walt was doing......but maybe what MirrorMask meant was that Jimmy's confession really drove home the point as to just how vital he was. It was glossed over a bit in BB....BCS demonstrated the true importance of his role.

[Chino]

That's what the authors probably meant when they said that we would have seen Breaking Bad under a new light. Yeah, Walter was the protagonist, but we now know Saul Goodman had a bigger role in creating Heisenberg than any of us realized.

I don't agree with this part. I think it was obvious watching Breaking Bad that Saul was integral in helping Walt.  Without Saul, who knows what happens when Badger got arrested, and without Saul, Walt never gets hooked up with Gus.  That was clear as day when watching BB.

Yeah....I think those who watched BB understood that Saul was a cornerstone and vital part of what Walt was doing......but maybe what MirrorMask meant was that Jimmy's confession really drove home the point as to just how vital he was. It was glossed over a bit in BB....BCS demonstrated the true importance of his role.

I think it was more directed at the people in that universe. Sure, to us it was pretty clear. But the people in that court room.. Marie, Kim... probably even the judge, thought Walt played a much larger role than he actually did. I'm sure part of it was an omission of guilt, but probably a flex too. Saul loved showing off his talent (thinking job interview scene). He did all that and then, while representing himself, got the prison sentenced dropped down to just seven years. He won. He was the best. I think part of him wanted everyone to know that. Part of him needed that credit.

[gmillerdrake]

That's what the authors probably meant when they said that we would have seen Breaking Bad under a new light. Yeah, Walter was the protagonist, but we now know Saul Goodman had a bigger role in creating Heisenberg than any of us realized.

I don't agree with this part. I think it was obvious watching Breaking Bad that Saul was integral in helping Walt.  Without Saul, who knows what happens when Badger got arrested, and without Saul, Walt never gets hooked up with Gus.  That was clear as day when watching BB.

Yeah....I think those who watched BB understood that Saul was a cornerstone and vital part of what Walt was doing......but maybe what MirrorMask meant was that Jimmy's confession really drove home the point as to just how vital he was. It was glossed over a bit in BB....BCS demonstrated the true importance of his role.

I think it was more directed at the people in that universe. Sure, to us it was pretty clear. But the people in that court room.. Marie, Kim... probably even the judge, thought Walt played a much larger role than he actually did. I'm sure part of it was an omission of guilt, but probably a flex too. Saul loved showing off his talent (thinking job interview scene). He did all that and then, while representing himself, got the prison sentenced dropped down to just seven years. He won. He was the best. I think part of him wanted everyone to know that. Part of him needed that credit.

Yeah....great post Brian. Wasn't really considering the aspect that Jimmy stated all of that for the folks in the room and the government....who were all under the assumption that Walt was the mastermind of it all. Probably was a bit of an 'ego' thing for Jimmy to clarify how important he was....and, also....needed to be known for his confession to mean the most it could mean.

[El Barto]

I like the way they ended the show, but not so much how the show ended. I liked Kim, and her life was just so sad and pointless after Howard. Unlike most people, I don't blame them for Howard's death. As she told his cunt ex-wife, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and he was there because he drunkenly showed up to berate them. Their sin was destroying his legacy, not causing his death. That is certainly an awful thing, but not worth what she subjected herself to. It seemed to me like she should have been able to get her life back on track, but instead she just gave up.

As for Jimmy spending the rest of his life in jail, I don't guess I have a problem with it, but it sure seems like he should have been able to save Kim (and in truth, I'm not sure what he actually saved her from--a pointless civil suit?), and still get a decent deal. Honestly, none of that made a lot of sense to me, except as a plot device to allow him to confess his sins.

Oddly, it bugs me that after all of this people still think Walter killed Hank and Gomie. Not once did anybody ever point out that it was the scumbag white supremacists. Seems like that would be one of the secrets that somebody used as leverage. Even Skyler and her worthless son thought he killed Hank.

Nacho went out like a fucking boss. I loved to see that. I liked the guy, and though he had to die, I was hoping it'd be a good death. That exceeded my expectations by miles. I love it when people go out with a final act of defiance, and that was one of the best I've seen.

I can't imagine how people watched this week by week. The fact that I was able to watch Plan and Execution and Point and Shoot all at once made the whole thing so much better. That was seriously as good as TV gets. Putting a break between the two parts was unconscionable, I think.

It's the details that matter. On his way down Howard smashed his head on the coffee table. It happened so quickly it was hard to catch, but that one thing greatly increased the shock value of his sudden execution.

Kim trying to not be the one to leave in Point and Shoot was Seehorn's finest hour. Just a wonderful performance. It's not surprising that's where Odenkirk had his heart attack.

Kim and Mike having a sitdown was great. It's so rare when to major characters meet for the first time like that. And when he said that she was made of sterner stuff it immediately clicked in my head. There was no way they wouldn't be proving that. They did so when she was absolutely going to clip Fring to save Jimmy.

It was fun to see another example of just how good Mike is as a cleaner. Even though he got totally played by Lalo, dealing with the aftermath of the whole thing was one of his finest hours as a character. That dude's damn good at his job.

[Chino]

Oddly, it bugs me that after all of this people still think Walter killed Hank and Gomie. Not once did anybody ever point out that it was the scumbag white supremacists. Seems like that would be one of the secrets that somebody used as leverage. Even Skyler and her worthless son thought he killed Hank.

That info is known though, isn't it? The last time Walter saw Skyler, when she let him hold Holly, he gave her that lottery ticket. The numbers of which corresponded to the GPS coordinates of where Hank was buried. He told her the story about how his money was out there, stolen, and then ended up being where Hank and Gomez were laid. I think he even instructed her to use it as a bargaining chip.

I can't imagine how people watched this week by week.

I was wondering when you were going to chime in 

[El Barto]

Oddly, it bugs me that after all of this people still think Walter killed Hank and Gomie. Not once did anybody ever point out that it was the scumbag white supremacists. Seems like that would be one of the secrets that somebody used as leverage. Even Skyler and her worthless son thought he killed Hank.

That info is known though, isn't it? The last time Walter saw Skyler, when she let him hold Holly, he gave her that lottery ticket. The numbers of which corresponded to the GPS coordinates of where Hank was buried. He told her the story about how his money was out there, stolen, and then ended up being where Hank and Gomez were laid. I think he even instructed her to use it as a bargaining chip.

He told here where it happened, and how to use it for leverage, but my recollection was that he never really explained how he died, and the impression was still that he killed Hank.

I was wondering when were going to chime in 

I watched it over 3 sittings this week. Funny story. . . I downloaded the whole thing about a week ago thinking it had ended. Waterworks was the last episode available and I thought that was it. I was pissed off at it ending on a cliffhanger. VG is simply better than that. It wasn't until I read through this thread and got nearly caught up that I figured out there was another episode. That was right around my normal bedtime. I decided that I couldn't not finish it last night, and what's another 55 minutes.  Little sleepy this morning.

[faizoff]

I can't imagine how people watched this week by week.

I was debating waiting for the whole show to end and then catchup, I just couldn't do it. In a way I'm glad but also jealous of those who can wait.

It's the details that matter.

This show is a joy with those details, I can't wait to re-watch the whole thing again and pay attention, they have so many things in there that truly elevate the entire series. I think they try to not go the extremely predictable route. Like I think it was season 3? when Kim had her accident, the way that scene was edited made it so effective and shocking, made it more jarring than show the whole car crash realtime.

[MirrorMask]

I like the way they ended the show, but not so much how the show ended. I liked Kim, and her life was just so sad and pointless after Howard. Unlike most people, I don't blame them for Howard's death. As she told his cunt ex-wife, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and he was there because he drunkenly showed up to berate them. Their sin was destroying his legacy, not causing his death. That is certainly an awful thing, but not worth what she subjected herself to. It seemed to me like she should have been able to get her life back on track, but instead she just gave up.

I think this will be a hotly debated argument, with different points of view based on one's own experience, morals, and judgement.

I totally consider Kim and Jimmy responsable for Howard's death. Of course they didn't mean it, and of course they didn't pull the trigger nor they could have ever imagined Lalo was there. But, unintended consequences are still consequences.

Anyone has seen American Gods? no? well, don't, read the book instead. But there's a scene with a god involved and a good plan goes awry, and the character says "how could it have gone wrong? I accounted for everything", with the god replying "no, you didn't account for divine intervention".

There's a lot of things Jimmy and Kim didn't think of. Did they know Howard's marriage had troubles? did they know he was depressed? maybe the illness would have relapsed and he would have killed himself in shame. Maybe while driving drunk he could have had a fatal accident, to himself or with an innocent driver. So many things could have gone wrong, and while Lalo showing up at the exact same time was a cosmically difficult to predict event, still it happened.

And again - what was it all for? yeah, money from the settlement, but pretend for a moment it's real life. The scam was insane. How many people do you (generic "you") know in real life that would go all the trouble Jimmy and Kim did to ruin someone's life? in Howard's words, "what gives you the right?".

Jimmy told him "Howard, come on. Y-you'll be fine. You always land on your feet.".

Instead he landed on the ground with his brains splattered all over their living room. If two adult and intelligent people don't understand how dangerous is to pursue such a defamatory campaign, maybe a cosmic coincidence which result in a violent death will help them understand. "What's the worst that could happen?", they probably thought.... Lalo could have happened. And it did.

[Chino]

Oddly, it bugs me that after all of this people still think Walter killed Hank and Gomie. Not once did anybody ever point out that it was the scumbag white supremacists. Seems like that would be one of the secrets that somebody used as leverage. Even Skyler and her worthless son thought he killed Hank.

That info is known though, isn't it? The last time Walter saw Skyler, when she let him hold Holly, he gave her that lottery ticket. The numbers of which corresponded to the GPS coordinates of where Hank was buried. He told her the story about how his money was out there, stolen, and then ended up being where Hank and Gomez were laid. I think he even instructed her to use it as a bargaining chip.

He told here where it happened, and how to use it for leverage, but my recollection was that he never really explained how he died, and the impression was still that he killed Hank.

I was wondering when were going to chime in 

I watched it over 3 sittings this week. Funny story. . . I downloaded the whole thing about a week ago thinking it had ended. Waterworks was the last episode available and I thought that was it. I was pissed off at it ending on a cliffhanger. VG is simply better than that. It wasn't until I read through this thread and got nearly caught up that I figured out there was another episode. That was right around my normal bedtime. I decided that I couldn't not finish it last night, and what's another 55 minutes.  Little sleepy this morning.

I had to look it up because curiosity got the better of me.

https://genius.com/Breaking-bad-felina-script-annotated

SKYLER: We don't want your money, Walt. I thought Flynn made that clear.

WALT: He did, and I don't have any to give you. I spent the last of it getting here. All I have to give you is this.

He takes out the lottery ticket and places it on the table

WALT: Call the DEA once I leave and tell them I was here. That I forced my way in, tell them, tell them I wanted bacon and eggs on my birthday and that I gave you that ticket. Those numbers are GPS coordinates.

SKYLER: For what?

WALT: A burial site. That's where they'll find Hank and Steve Gomez.

Skyler begins to cry

WALT: It's where I buried our money and the men who stole it from us, the men who still have it, they murdered Hank and Steve and put them in that hole. Now, you trade that for a deal with the prosecutor. You get yourself out of this. Skyler. Skyler. All the things that I did, you need to understand-

He just tells her that other people did it though. He didn't give any specifics.

[El Barto]

Oddly, it bugs me that after all of this people still think Walter killed Hank and Gomie. Not once did anybody ever point out that it was the scumbag white supremacists. Seems like that would be one of the secrets that somebody used as leverage. Even Skyler and her worthless son thought he killed Hank.

That info is known though, isn't it? The last time Walter saw Skyler, when she let him hold Holly, he gave her that lottery ticket. The numbers of which corresponded to the GPS coordinates of where Hank was buried. He told her the story about how his money was out there, stolen, and then ended up being where Hank and Gomez were laid. I think he even instructed her to use it as a bargaining chip.

He told here where it happened, and how to use it for leverage, but my recollection was that he never really explained how he died, and the impression was still that he killed Hank.

I was wondering when were going to chime in 

I watched it over 3 sittings this week. Funny story. . . I downloaded the whole thing about a week ago thinking it had ended. Waterworks was the last episode available and I thought that was it. I was pissed off at it ending on a cliffhanger. VG is simply better than that. It wasn't until I read through this thread and got nearly caught up that I figured out there was another episode. That was right around my normal bedtime. I decided that I couldn't not finish it last night, and what's another 55 minutes.  Little sleepy this morning.

I had to look it up because curiosity got the better of me.

https://genius.com/Breaking-bad-felina-script-annotated

SKYLER: We don't want your money, Walt. I thought Flynn made that clear.

WALT: He did, and I don't have any to give you. I spent the last of it getting here. All I have to give you is this.

He takes out the lottery ticket and places it on the table

WALT: Call the DEA once I leave and tell them I was here. That I forced my way in, tell them, tell them I wanted bacon and eggs on my birthday and that I gave you that ticket. Those numbers are GPS coordinates.

SKYLER: For what?

WALT: A burial site. That's where they'll find Hank and Steve Gomez.

Skyler begins to cry

WALT: It's where I buried our money and the men who stole it from us, the men who still have it, they murdered Hank and Steve and put them in that hole. Now, you trade that for a deal with the prosecutor. You get yourself out of this. Skyler. Skyler. All the things that I did, you need to understand-

He just tells her that other people did it though. He didn't give any specifics.

Fair enough. She certainly didn't seem to share that information, though.

[Chino]

Agreed entirely.

[El Barto]

I like the way they ended the show, but not so much how the show ended. I liked Kim, and her life was just so sad and pointless after Howard. Unlike most people, I don't blame them for Howard's death. As she told his cunt ex-wife, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and he was there because he drunkenly showed up to berate them. Their sin was destroying his legacy, not causing his death. That is certainly an awful thing, but not worth what she subjected herself to. It seemed to me like she should have been able to get her life back on track, but instead she just gave up.

I think this will be a hotly debated argument, with different points of view based on one's own experience, morals, and judgement.

I totally consider Kim and Jimmy responsable for Howard's death. Of course they didn't mean it, and of course they didn't pull the trigger nor they could have ever imagined Lalo was there. But, unintended consequences are still consequences.

Anyone has seen American Gods? no? well, don't, read the book instead. But there's a scene with a god involved and a good plan goes awry, and the character says "how could it have gone wrong? I accounted for everything", with the god replying "no, you didn't account for divine intervention".

There's a lot of things Jimmy and Kim didn't think of. Did they know Howard's marriage had troubles? did they know he was depressed? maybe the illness would have relapsed and he would have killed himself in shame. Maybe while driving drunk he could have had a fatal accident, to himself or with an innocent driver. So many things could have gone wrong, and while Lalo showing up at the exact same time was a cosmically difficult to predict event, still it happened.

And again - what was it all for? yeah, money from the settlement, but pretend for a moment it's real life. The scam was insane. How many people do you (generic "you") know in real life that would go all the trouble Jimmy and Kim did to ruin someone's life? in Howard's words, "what gives you the right?".

Jimmy told him "Howard, come on. Y-you'll be fine. You always land on your feet.".

Instead he landed on the ground with his brains splattered all over their living room. If two adult and intelligent people don't understand how dangerous is to pursue such a defamatory campaign, maybe a cosmic coincidence which result in a violent death will help them understand. "What's the worst that could happen?", they probably thought.... Lalo could have happened. And it did.

Had Howard been killed by a drunk driver on his way to their condo would it have been their fault? What happened is pretty equivalent, I think. I will say that had he killed himself as a consequence I'd put much of it on them (there were still plenty of other factors, not the least of which was Chuck), but it's not what happened.

As for what it was all for, danger made Kim all gooey. I've been saying that for years. She liked being in the game, though she was naive as to how dangerous it all was. Howard certainly did have his flaws, and they did have reasons to hate the guy (he laid them all out, in fact), and they certainly wanted the money, but in the end it was all about the con. Their con was finished, though.

[XJDenton]

I'd say while not directly responsible they did contribute to the circumstances that led to his death. There are degrees of culpability. And even then, being technically innocent does not guarantee that you will feel free of guilt. Kim watched Howard die in front of her. He would not have been there that night if not for how they chose to interact with him. That's going to fester in any person with even a smidge of conscience. Especially someone who, excepting their predilections for cons, is as moral and good-hearted as kim was at her core.

As for the finale, it didn't wow me initially like the BB finale did, but it has definitely grown on me. To me, it feels a little bit like the end of the Irishman by Scorsese: a sombre and low key end to a life filled with crime and violence, the only difference is that Jimmy still had enough good left in him that he recognised he had the opportunity to atone, and took that chance. And I like that he did.

[gmillerdrake]

[El Barto]

I'd say while not directly responsible they did contribute to the circumstances that led to his death. There are degrees of culpability. And even then, being technically innocent does not guarantee that you will feel free of guilt. Kim watched Howard die in front of her. He would not have been there that night if not for how they chose to interact with him. That's going to fester in any person with even a smidge of conscience. Especially someone who, excepting their predilections for cons, is as moral and good-hearted as kim was at her core.

I don't really disagree with that. I just don't think contributing to the circumstances is the same as causation, and in my opinion her contribution didn't warrant squandering the rest of her life the way she did.

[SoundscapeMN]

It went beyond my wildest expectations.

I don't really remember what I thought about it when it was announced - I've seen Breaking Bad over the course of a year only after it has finished (I saw it from 2013 to 2014), and Better Call Saul was just a fun show to follow whenever it came out. I  remember "binging" the first seasons only after they were released (I consider binging wathcing one episode per day), this is the only one I followed in real time if I remember correctly.

Anyway, I thought it would have been "just" the origin story of Saul Goodman. Jimmy slowly becomes Saul, and we see him doing Goodman-ish things, with some added bonus from seeing Mike and Gus.

I would have never anticipated it would become the giant it turned out to be. Probably not even the writers did - I expected it all to be with the same levity of the first season, that it would have all been skateboard twins and Kettlemans. What a glorious ride it has been.

The writers are basically the Dream Theater of TV shows, they could have done - like it was their initial idea - a comedy with week by week cases by Saul Goodman, but no, they had to create a compelling drama on par with Breaking Bad, just like DT told themselves "let's write a short epic" and came out instead with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence 

the initial speculation (and I recall Gilligan even commenting about this in an interview or podcast) was it was going to be like a sitcom.

Sort of like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6v-ApehVbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8domW4NwpBQ

And while it might not have had as much staying power, I still think that idea could have been good/funny/worth trying.

[KevShmev]

Chino said a lot of what I wanted to say about Walt and his role in the murders of Hank and Gomez.  Walt made it clear to Skyler that others were directly responsible for their deaths, but whether Skyler told that to the feds when making her deal with the lottery ticket is anyone's guess. 

But, it's not like Jesse's name was cleared either.  He had to flee to Alaska under a different name because he is still a murderer and a cooker of meth who is wanted by the feds.  If caught, he'd be in prison for life.

Such is the price Walt and Jesse had to pay for their many sins.  And while Jesse showed genuine sorrow for what he had done, he still did it. I don't have these blue-eyed visions that he was some great guy who was made bad by the evil Walter White.  Jesse Pinkman is still the guy who knocked on Gale's door and shot him in the face.  No matter how bad he felt about it, he did it.   

[El Barto]

Chino said a lot of what I wanted to say about Walt and his role in the murders of Hank and Gomez.  Walt made it clear to Skyler that others were directly responsible for their deaths, but whether Skyler told that to the feds when making her deal with the lottery ticket is anyone's guess. 

But, it's not like Jesse's name was cleared either.  He had to flee to Alaska under a different name because he is still a murderer and a cooker of meth who is wanted by the feds.  If caught, he'd be in prison for life.

Such is the price Walt and Jesse had to pay for their many sins.  And while Jesse showed genuine sorrow for what he had done, he still did it. I don't have these blue-eyed visions that he was some great guy who was made bad by the evil Walter White.  Jesse Pinkman is still the guy who knocked on Gale's door and shot him in the face.  No matter how bad he felt about it, he did it.

How far removed is Jesse shooting Gale in the face from Kim trying to shoot Gus in the face? They were both acting under pressure from outside influences. And I'm not defending Jesse at all. He was a bad guy. It's just that necessity can really fuck up the line between good guys and bad guys.

[KevShmev]

How far removed is Jesse shooting Gale in the face from Kim trying to shoot Gus in the face? They were both acting under pressure from outside influences. And I'm not defending Jesse at all. He was a bad guy. It's just that necessity can really fuck up the line between good guys and bad guys.

That's a good question, one for which I do not have a quick answer.

My initial thought is that it was apples and oranges considering Kim was still in shock from seeing Howard shot dead right in front of her and felt that doing what she was told was her only way to save Jimmy, someone she legitimately cared about, whom she knew was being held captive by Lalo, Howard's murderer, until she did what he ordered her to do.

But yeah, the line between the good guys and the bad guys can get blurry, and as well as between the bad guys and the really bad guys. 

Consider that as awful as Jesse felt for having to kill Gale (you could see in his face along with the tears), that was nearly identical to Walt's reaction to his own first murder (of Krazy-8), where Walt broke down and kept repeating, "I'm sorry," after choking him to death with the bike lock.  And yet Jesse still had no problem cooking meth after that.  He seemed stunned when he had to kill the Salamanca nephew when he, Gus and Mike were making their escape after Gus poisoned them all at Don Eladio's, but Jesse still was all about cooking meth and making fat stacks, even after Gus was gone.  Jesse never reached his breaking point where he had to stop until Todd shot the kid on the bike after the train heist.

[gmillerdrake]

Yep. Jesse had a sweet spot for kids. Probably because his parents basically bailed on him…..but the series always placed him in instances where he was…….for the lack of a better term…..parental to a couple kids.

After Todd shot that kid you could see Jesse clocked out. He was done. As has been mentioned, Jesse murdered and was a meth cook…..certainly not an upstanding citizen. But, the cool dichotomy of his character compared to Walt’s was that Jesse progressively worked his way towards ‘good’ whereas Walt progressively headed down a dark path.

[KevShmev]

Yep. Jesse had a sweet spot for kids. Probably because his parents basically bailed on him…..but the series always placed him in instances where he was…….for the lack of a better term…..parental to a couple kids.

After Todd shot that kid you could see Jesse clocked out. He was done. As has been mentioned, Jesse murdered and was a meth cook…..certainly not an upstanding citizen. But, the cool dichotomy of his character compared to Walt’s was that Jesse progressively worked his way towards ‘good’ whereas Walt progressively headed down a dark path.

Good points.

Of course, Jesse's parents bailed on him after he repeatedly hung himself with the rope they kept handing him.  He didn't deserve them anymore.

Interestingly, even after Todd shot Drew Sharp, I think Jesse would have been okay with cooking had Mike and Walt been on his side to either fire or off Todd, but once they outvoted him to keep him part of the operation, he checked out.  Seeing Walt humming to himself in one of the tented houses after expressing how sad he was about the kid dying as well was a key moment, too, as it came off to Jesse like Walt really didn't care that much that someone in their operation had killed a kid for what Jesse considered a pithy reason. 

I definitely agree with you about the dichotomy between the two, though.  I know that I was one of millions who was hollering at the TV with glee when Jesse strangled Todd to death in the BB finale (I will not feel bad for cheering on the death of a fictional character ).

[KevShmev]

And because, why not , here is me spitballing a list of the 10 greatest characters in the BB/BCS universe

01 Walter White
02 Jesse Pinkman
03 Jimmy McGill/Saul Goodman/Gene
04 Kim Wexler
05 Gustavo Fring
06 Mike Ehrmantraut
07 Hank Schrader
08 Chuck McGill
09 Skyler White
10 Howard Hamlin

Walter Jr. ranks 193rd.  Sorry, Lalo fans, he does not make the cut.

[gmillerdrake]

I’d replace Skykar with Lalo on your list……he was awesome. Skylark was serviceable…..but she wasn’t in that tier IMO

[KevShmev]

I put Skyler on there because her character arc was more interesting.  She really wasn't a likable character (which seemed to shock Anna Gunn; did she think Skyler was supposed to be likable??), but she was a fascinating one.

Lalo was basically a psychopath with no nuance.  We saw everything about him early on (he was crazy, but could be super charming when he had to be), and that was him in a nutshell. 

[El Barto]

Walt - Kinda has to be top on the list.
Chuck - The ultimate antagonist. You hated him and pitied him at the same time. I wanted him to die and took zero satisfaction when it happened. That's how villains should be.
Kim - I don't know as her character changed, but it certainly came into view more and more. Interesting gal.
Mike - The ultimate badass. Brilliant at what he does, and despite being totally ruthless he's got a big heart.
Gus - I hide in plain sight. The duality of his life fascinated me. He'll serve fried chicken to cops even while he's plotting evil shit. Also, brilliantly clever.
Lalo - Kev might be right that he's a glib and superficial psychopath, but he overlooks Lalo's Joie de vivre. Nobody had as much fun being a criminal as he did.
Nacho - Smarter than his peers, yet always struggling to keep himself afloat. Went out like a boss.
Jesse - I honestly never found Jesse all that interesting.
Jimmy - I like Jimmy a lot, but don't really consider him a great character. More of a vehicle for everything to happen around him.
Tyrus - He and Mike really didn't seem to get along, and he was itching to shoot Mike on a few occasions, but he never hesitated to follow his orders. His loyalty was to Gus, but he respected Mike, even if he didn't like him.

[El Barto]

Reflecting further on Lalo, he really was unique. Not one damn one of of these people ever had fun. As good as it got for any of them was simply relaxing for a spell. Even when Gus entertains and makes that bouillabaisse of his it's still all about business. Most of these people seem miserable. The exception would be Kim and Jimmy because at least the con gets them off. Seems like trying to win and trying to survive is a 24-7 effort. Lalo's charm seemed legit to me because he always seemed to find the pleasure in what he was doing.

Seems to me that the Soprano crew always managed to find time to enjoy themselves. BBQs. Nice restaurants. Titty bars. Even just chilling in front of the meat market made them happy. The BBBCS crews were just too driven for their own good.