Question about Divorce

[gmillerdrake]

One thing I am very proud of is how well adjusted our daughter is for a 14 year old girl. She also loves both of us equally. That's not always the case for many kids. Personally I think that says a lot about my marriage. Minimal dysfunction in my home has produced a safe haven for my daughter to thrive. That's something I did not have growing up, and the one thing I have always wanted for my child.

That's good to hear.....and I've read and seen the exploits of your daughter that you share here.....and I'm happy for you and your wife. Because, whether it's popular and right to say....once you decide or "accidentally" have a child....whether you like it or not your life is not your own any longer. It should be dedicated to the little person(s) that you've chose to bring into the world. Not to say you can't have 'your' time and what not but your primary purpose should be to create an environment where that child/those kids can do nothing but thrive. It's tough to do because you do have to make sacrifices and do things that you quite frankly don't want to do. As much as I love my kids and wife I still find myself in a constant battle with my selfish desires.....and that is the largest hurdle I have to overcome as a Father and Husband, learning to place my little kiddos and wife in front of my needs 100% of the time....not the 85-90% that I do now.

[cramx3]

I've already told my girlfriend not to expect a proposal any time soon. She's cool with it. He have our house and our animals, and we are completely content.

Do you feel or get pressured at all from friends/family? Like, "Oh, you're living together.....when's the ring coming?" I think that type of pressure does exist and may influence engagements/weddings that probably shouldn't have been planned or taken place.

I had that pressure.  We dated for almost 8 years before being engaged.  Her friends were the worst, but my parents were bad too.  Couldnt go a day without someone saying somehting along the lines of "when are you going to propose"  I dont think that played a role in my decision to propose, but it certainly was like a weight on my shoulders.  I ultimately proposed when I had the strongest feelings in our relationship (felt good in my job, in our home life, and in our love life together) and sadly for us, that was the plateau and it was all downhill from there.

[Tick]

@gmiller, as a response to your long post:

"don't actually value marriage as it was designed and intended ". I think that's a very laden statement. You cite love as the defining factor of a marriage, but historically, love was almost irrelevant to a marriage. Throughout most of human history, marriages were arranged between families, with particularly the woman's wishes being of no concern to anyone. So, making love the prime ingredient in a marriage is a recent thing, and certainly not "as it was designed". And in fact, there's an Indian saying (where marriages are still prearranged) that says "marriage comes first, love later". Or not.

Under that aspect, I personally view this as just yet another shift of society in their social contracts. Certainly not the end of the world, and I would argue it's better to have two single people than a married couple who are bound by social pressure to stay in it, and are wasting away, along with "obligation kids".

Yes, but its the poor decision to get married in the first place is why many find themselves bound by "social pressure" Rushing in to something as if it holds no real importance to take it any great distance. Its entering in knowing its no big deal if he doesn't work. You can always get divorced. I NEVER felt that way, and truly went into marriage wanting and expecting to go the distance.

[King Postwhore]

Not sure if I agree with your assessment Rumbo about the break up. Sure it's easy when you are early in the relationship with nothing that binds you together but the same could be said About a married couple. I believe it depends if both couples, married or not have the intention to break up amicably.

[gmillerdrake]

"don't actually value marriage as it was designed and intended ". I think that's a very laden statement. You cite love as the defining factor of a marriage, but historically, love was almost irrelevant to a marriage. Throughout most of human history, marriages were arranged between families, with particularly the woman's wishes being of no concern to anyone. So, making love the prime ingredient in a marriage is a recent thing, and certainly not "as it was designed". And in fact, there's an Indian saying (where marriages are still prearranged) that says "marriage comes first, love later". Or not.

Well....what man has done to marriage doesn't redefine it's design. And I know you're intelligent enough to know what I'm implying there....and at the risk of turning this into a P/R issue I'll just say I understand your point but don't necessarily agree that love being the prime ingredient is a recent thing. It's an ingredinent that is often lacking for whatever reason....but marriage in it's true form requires love for it to work.

Under that aspect, I personally view this as just yet another shift of society in their social contracts. Certainly not the end of the world, and I would argue it's better to have two single people than a married couple who are bound by social pressure to stay in it, and are wasting away, along with "obligation kids".

IMO if you are still in a marriage just out of obligation to the kids then there was nothing there in the first place to get married on. Sounds ignorant but that's just what I think. I think if you've reached a point where you've 'fallen out of love' that just doesn't happen.....that takes effort as well. Not communicating, desiring other men/women....deciding 'Im done'...whatever it is it takes effort to fall out of love as well.

[gmillerdrake]

that was the plateau and it was all downhill from there.

I can honestly tell you that when I hear things like this....even when it's someone I don't know well....it kills me. Again, I don't want to sound as if I'm judging those who've had to go through a divorce....I just can't imagine having to go through it. My marriage has been wonderful and it's difficult for me to think of anything other than what I've experience and it's saddening to me when it doesn't 'work out' like that for others.

[cramx3]

that was the plateau and it was all downhill from there.

I can honestly tell you that when I hear things like this....even when it's someone I don't know well....it kills me. Again, I don't want to sound as if I'm judging those who've had to go through a divorce....I just can't imagine having to go through it. My marriage has been wonderful and it's difficult for me to think of anything other than what I've experience and it's saddening to me when it doesn't 'work out' like that for others.

Its OK and I dont see it as judging.  My relationship had many great years, sadly it just ended as we both changed over time and no longer were able to get along and eventually I couldn't take it any longer.  And I dont like it when people say they are sorry or sad for me.  Since I ended it, I have noticed a huge change in my general happiness and am in a better place now.  Regardless, it has changed the way I feel about marriage in general, but thats just me.  Maybe I will meet a great lady in the future who I will want to marry, who knows.

[rumborak]

Not sure if I agree with your assessment Rumbo about the break up. Sure it's easy when you are early in the relationship with nothing that binds you together but the same could be said About a married couple. I believe it depends if both couples, married or not have the intention to break up amicably.

I think my over-arching point here is that I don't think it's a bad thing that we're moving away from the notion that marriage is something for life. I think what partially draws young people into marriage is this blue-eyed notion of "we will be one item until the end of time!", so they want to announce it to the world like a Facebook status.
I think when the societal notion gets more solidified that a partnership is not a failure if it only lasted for 10 years, marriages will be seen more pragmatic, and will return to something more reasonably approached by everybody. I know people like gmiller who connect marriage to a whole other (P/R) thing will see this nonetheless as a demise of the ultimate concept, but to me the only spot to look for a "design reason" of monogamy is probably in caves and sedimentary strata.

[Chino]

I've already told my girlfriend not to expect a proposal any time soon. She's cool with it. He have our house and our animals, and we are completely content.

Do you feel or get pressured at all from friends/family? Like, "Oh, you're living together.....when's the ring coming?" I think that type of pressure does exist and may influence engagements/weddings that probably shouldn't have been planned or taken place.

Luckily I receive zero pressure. My mom will joke about it here and there, but that's all it is, jokes. She loves busting my balls. I have a small family, we're lucky to get 12 around the table at Thanksgiving, and that includes my grandmother's 24/7 nurse. Religious ties family-wide have faded as we kids have gotten older, and with that so has the expectation to create some sort of sacred bond in the eyes of God. I honestly think, in their eyes, becoming homeowners is a bigger accomplishment than marriage anyway. Being able to have a big party and exchange rings is easy. Having to literally share your lives, space, and finances is something that requires hard work and dedication, and for that they couldn't be more proud.

As far as my friends go, none of them have really said anything yet. I honestly get more references to having a kid than I do getting married.

[gmillerdrake]

I know people like gmiller who connect marriage to a whole other (P/R) thing will see this nonetheless as a demise of the ultimate concept

IMO the product of the demise of the ultimate concept and the deterioration and abandonment of the 'traditional' family structure is pretty evident in the horrific things we witness as common place in our society today....but that is most certainly a P/R topic.

but to me the only spot to look for a "design reason" of monogamy is probably in caves and sedimentary strata.

I've never been so cleverly insulted. I still can't figure out why your were banned from P/R?

[gmillerdrake]

I've already told my girlfriend not to expect a proposal any time soon. She's cool with it. He have our house and our animals, and we are completely content.

Do you feel or get pressured at all from friends/family? Like, "Oh, you're living together.....when's the ring coming?" I think that type of pressure does exist and may influence engagements/weddings that probably shouldn't have been planned or taken place.

Luckily I receive zero pressure. My mom will joke about it here and there, but that's all it is, jokes. She loves busting my balls. I have a small family, we're lucky to get 12 around the table at Thanksgiving, and that includes my grandmother's 24/7 nurse. Religious ties family-wide have faded as we kids have gotten older, and with that so has the expectation to create some sort of sacred bond in the eyes of God. I honestly think, in their eyes, becoming homeowners is a bigger accomplishment than marriage anyway. Being able to have a big party and exchange rings is easy. Having to literally share your lives, space, and finances is something that requires hard work and dedication, and for that they couldn't be more proud.

As far as my friends go, none of them have really said anything yet. I honestly get more references to having a kid than I do getting married.

I can't emphasize enough how much a kid changes your life and your relationship. I completely love the reward that comes with being a Father but man...be sure that you really understand (not that you really can until your holding your kiddo in your arms) how much a kid changes things. I completely reccommend it but just know that it's something that throws everything upside down

[rumborak]

@gmiller: wtf, there was absolutely no intent of insult in that at all. Like, AT ALL.
I am saying that humans have been monogamous for a long time, way before the reason for their monogamy was ascribed to a higher reason. As such, for me personally the only place to look for a "reason" for monogamy is from the bones of Neanderthals and stuff. Like, did they survive longer because of it? Did they have fewer feuds?
I'm assuming MY non-belief in your higher reason is not an implicit insult to you. Because that would be ... crazy.

[Chino]

@gmiller: wtf, there was absolutely no intent of insult in that at all. Like, AT ALL.
I am saying that humans have been monogamous for a long time, way before the reason for their monogamy was ascribed to a higher reason.

The only reason humans evolved (based on what we observed in other primates) to be monogamous was simply to stop males from killing the offspring of another, and to preserve claim to a Vagina. 

[Tick]

I've already told my girlfriend not to expect a proposal any time soon. She's cool with it. He have our house and our animals, and we are completely content.

Do you feel or get pressured at all from friends/family? Like, "Oh, you're living together.....when's the ring coming?" I think that type of pressure does exist and may influence engagements/weddings that probably shouldn't have been planned or taken place.

Luckily I receive zero pressure. My mom will joke about it here and there, but that's all it is, jokes. She loves busting my balls. I have a small family, we're lucky to get 12 around the table at Thanksgiving, and that includes my grandmother's 24/7 nurse. Religious ties family-wide have faded as we kids have gotten older, and with that so has the expectation to create some sort of sacred bond in the eyes of God. I honestly think, in their eyes, becoming homeowners is a bigger accomplishment than marriage anyway. Being able to have a big party and exchange rings is easy. Having to literally share your lives, space, and finances is something that requires hard work and dedication, and for that they couldn't be more proud.

As far as my friends go, none of them have really said anything yet. I honestly get more references to having a kid than I do getting married.

I can't emphasize enough how much a kid changes your life and your relationship. I completely love the reward that comes with being a Father but man...be sure that you really understand (not that you really can until your holding your kiddo in your arms) how much a kid changes things. I completely reccommend it but just know that it's something that throws everything upside down

You just have to make sure you don't fall into the trap of making your entire married life about the kids while raising them. You have to be able to still be a married couple. Too many marriages are 100% about the kids up until the day they leave the nest, then when the dust settles its like your living with a stranger you don't know anymore.

[rumborak]

@gmiller: wtf, there was absolutely no intent of insult in that at all. Like, AT ALL.
I am saying that humans have been monogamous for a long time, way before the reason for their monogamy was ascribed to a higher reason.

The only reason humans evolved (based on what we observed in other primates) to be monogamous was simply to stop males from killing the offspring of another, and to preserve claim to a Vagina. 

Oh, has that been established beyond reasonable doubt? I thought theories were more wishy-washy about it. But it's also not that I've been following it with rapt attention.

[King Postwhore]

Not sure if I agree with your assessment Rumbo about the break up. Sure it's easy when you are early in the relationship with nothing that binds you together but the same could be said About a married couple. I believe it depends if both couples, married or not have the intention to break up amicably.

I think my over-arching point here is that I don't think it's a bad thing that we're moving away from the notion that marriage is something for life. I think what partially draws young people into marriage is this blue-eyed notion of "we will be one item until the end of time!", so they want to announce it to the world like a Facebook status.
I think when the societal notion gets more solidified that a partnership is not a failure if it only lasted for 10 years, marriages will be seen more pragmatic, and will return to something more reasonably approached by everybody. I know people like gmiller who connect marriage to a whole other (P/R) thing will see this nonetheless as a demise of the ultimate concept, but to me the only spot to look for a "design reason" of monogamy is probably in caves and sedimentary strata.

I get that.  If it's not for you, it's not for you.  Just need someone like minded.

[King Postwhore]

@gmiller: wtf, there was absolutely no intent of insult in that at all. Like, AT ALL.
I am saying that humans have been monogamous for a long time, way before the reason for their monogamy was ascribed to a higher reason.

The only reason humans evolved (based on what we observed in other primates) to be monogamous was simply to stop males from killing the offspring of another, and to preserve claim to a Vagina. 

Oh, has that been established beyond reasonable doubt? I thought theories were more wishy-washy about it. But it's also not that I've been following it with rapt attention.

BTW, I'd like to claim many vaginas but they don't want anything to do with me anymore.

[gmillerdrake]

@gmiller: wtf, there was absolutely no intent of insult in that at all. Like, AT ALL.

I'm sorry about that.... I read that completely wrong then. My bad and again I apologize for the jerk reaction.  I do that too much.... 

[rumborak]

All good

[Aythesryche]

The immigration officer just said "yeah yeah, whatever. Let's have a look at those travel pictures!"

I've been approached on more than one occasion by people asking me to fabricate travel pictures for them so they could fool immigration officers.

[bout to crash]

 , weird.

EXACTLY. It's used as another forum for manipulation and abuse.

Again, you have to do what's right for you, but none of those things are exclusive to marriage.  Those things happen (or can happen, anyway) with or without a ring or a marriage contract.   This might be a controversial statement, but in my experience (not insignificant, if I say so myself) almost all the upsides/downsides of marriage/not marriage are based on the people in a relationship, and that doesn't change.  In other words, a "bitch ex-wife" is just as likely going to be a "bitch ex-girlfriend" if you don't get married, and a "caring compassionate, non-demanding girlfriend" who is willing to forego the ring and ceremony would just as a likely be a "caring compassionate, non-demanding wife" if you did tie the knot.   People are who they are, and "marriage" doesn't change that in most cases. 

Right, but my only point there is that people use divorce as a last opportunity to be abusive or whatever. I wasn't saying those things don't exist outside of marriage.

That's the thing. First off....this is just my opinion from observation.....a solid 70% of people getting married today shouldn't be getting married, period. They are getting married for the 'story' or 'experience' of it and IMO don't actually value marriage as it was designed and intended for two people to enter into to live and share life together nor do they know themselves well enough to understand what it is they even desire or want from life, much less considering another persons interests.

Yeah, this is sort of what I was getting at in the beginning- people who haven't been together that long getting married just because they either want a wedding or think they have to get married to prove they love each other. Love exists in lots of forms, and it doesn't have to follow a societally prescribed path. It doesn't always last, and I really think it's dumb to get married when you've been with someone a year. But hey, mistakes aren't the end of the world, I guess.

@gmiller, as a response to your long post:

"don't actually value marriage as it was designed and intended ". I think that's a very laden statement. You cite love as the defining factor of a marriage, but historically, love was almost irrelevant to a marriage. Throughout most of human history, marriages were arranged between families, with particularly the woman's wishes being of no concern to anyone. So, making love the prime ingredient in a marriage is a recent thing, and certainly not "as it was designed". And in fact, there's an Indian saying (where marriages are still prearranged) that says "marriage comes first, love later". Or not.

Under that aspect, I personally view this as just yet another shift of society in their social contracts. Certainly not the end of the world, and I would argue it's better to have two single people than a married couple who are bound by social pressure to stay in it, and are wasting away, along with "obligation kids".

Also this.

And yeah, monogamy did not start as what it is now, as much as it would be nice to think so romantically of it. I'm not knocking it, but it's certainly not the "right" or only way.

[Stadler]

The question does run deeper than just "what's right for you", though.  There are documented impacts to marriage - both being in one and ending one - to both the participants and the children.   For example, married men typically live longer than those that remain unmarried, and children of divorce typically have shorter life spans than those whose parents stay together (though current research suggests that it isn't the divorce per se that causes that effect).   I'm not suggesting there is a right answer, but I am suggesting that perhaps this decision, like many in life, aren't always reached in a rational, "weigh all the facts" way, but in a more raw, emotional way. 

[bout to crash]

I guess I'm not sure how it runs deeper than what's right for you. Those statistics are irrelevant if you're miserable in a marriage, or being abused, or whatever. I'm willing to bet that people in an unhappy marriage (or kids of unhappily married parents) have shorter life spans and/or less quality of life.

[rumborak]

I think partially the lessened life span of non-married people comes from the fact that they never really settle into a "settled down" life style. That is, they have no partner to moderate their lifestyle, and are more likely to eat badly and drink too much.

[cramx3]

I think you could also add that many people dont even know "what is right for them" and make poor decisions as some have given examples of in this thread.

I think partially the lessened life span of non-married people comes from the fact that they never really settle into a "settled down" life style. That is, they have no partner to moderate their lifestyle, and are more likely to eat badly and drink too much.

I bet this plays a factor too

[Stadler]

I think partially the lessened life span of non-married people comes from the fact that they never really settle into a "settled down" life style. That is, they have no partner to moderate their lifestyle, and are more likely to eat badly and drink too much.

That's actually pretty close to the accepted thinking at this point, particularly with men.  They tend to lead lives that have less risk-taking and less risky behavior.

[gmillerdrake]

I think partially the lessened life span of non-married people comes from the fact that they never really settle into a "settled down" life style. That is, they have no partner to moderate their lifestyle, and are more likely to eat badly and drink too much.

That's actually pretty close to the accepted thinking at this point, particularly with men.  They tend to lead lives that have less risk-taking and less risky behavior.

Very true for me. Once it 'clicked' that I was no longer living life just for 'me'....it adjusted my way of thinking.

The first instance it reavealed itseld was shortly after I was engaged my wife and I were hiking and at one point I climbed a rather steep...trecherous rock face. Once atop of that I noticed that only a few feet away....across a span that dropped a good 25-30 foot....there was 'great landing spot' to jump to another rock. Just as I readied myself to make the very simple 4 or 5 foot jump across that span.....from below my wife shouted my name and pretty much 'made' me not make the jump.

The conversation later that night revolved around the fact that my all my future decisions and choices should begin to include her (and now my kids) in them. How those choices/decisions would affect them. It's a tough pill to swallow for a younger guy...at least it was for me then, but I think that's a part of the maturation of being engaged/married/father.....and it's something that I actually am grateful for because it has changed my life in nothing but for the better. 

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Then there's the old joke:

Why is divorce so expensive?

Because it's worth it.

[ZirconBlue]

$6k on a ring is ridiculous. I cringe when I hear stuff like that. Six grand was the down payment on my house. Why do you still have the ring? Is it worth more now than when you bought it?

To me understanding, the exact opposite. A wedding ring is the worst investment ever; the moment they are bought they lose more than half their value.

For clarification, it's engagement rings, and diamonds in general, that plummet in value like that.  And that's all down to how the diamond market is artificially manipulated.  Diamonds, basically, are a big scam.