Dream Theater entered the studio in February v. No News is Good News

[RodrigoAltaf]

Isn't it time we start discussing their hair or clothes or something?   

Been there

 And there: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43685.0

[emtee]

I've spent some significant time with ADToE and DT12 over the last couple weeks. Setting aside the sound issues and focusing on
what MM has brought to the band and I have to say, even though I have a TON of respect for his super human abilities I just can't
seem to latch onto anything memorable or even a signature style. I know many will disagree with this and that is fine. I hope that
he is allowed to be unleashed and on his 3rd DT album we will see him shine and become an integral asset that raises the overall
level of the music.

[Prog Snob]

Isn't it time we start discussing their hair or clothes or something?   

Been there

 And there: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43685.0

I was actually saying it condescendingly. If you read some of the past pages of this thread, you would understand better. 

[goo-goo]

I've spent some significant time with ADToE and DT12 over the last couple weeks. Setting aside the sound issues and focusing on
what MM has brought to the band and I have to say, even though I have a TON of respect for his super human abilities I just can't
seem to latch onto anything memorable or even a signature style. I know many will disagree with this and that is fine. I hope that
he is allowed to be unleashed and on his 3rd DT album we will see him shine and become an integral asset that raises the overall
level of the music.

I really doubt this will happen. Don't get me wrong, I would love for this to happen but I was kind of expecting this to happen in DT12. JR and JP are the main composers of the music. I think MM knows his position in the band and be a contributor and not a composer. He might add a few sections here and there but I'm not expecting to be overblown by  the complete piece of music.

I've been enjoying ADTOE more on a live setting. Made a playlist from the Luna Park release with the songs from ADTOE and the songs shine a lot more than the original recording. Would of loved for DT to have changed the Bridges on the Sky outro verse.. The ending feels so anti-climatic on how it's currently setup. Would of loved for James to have stuck with the high note belting out and finish the song that first time around...But oh well..can't have them all.

[Sacul]

I just noticed that DT's day was a few days ago, May 8th (5/8) .

[kirksnosehair]

I've spent some significant time with ADToE and DT12 over the last couple weeks. Setting aside the sound issues and focusing on
what MM has brought to the band and I have to say, even though I have a TON of respect for his super human abilities I just can't
seem to latch onto anything memorable or even a signature style. I know many will disagree with this and that is fine. I hope that
he is allowed to be unleashed and on his 3rd DT album we will see him shine and become an integral asset that raises the overall
level of the music.

He's an amazing technician.  But I think what makes him amazing in terms of technical prowess also works against him in terms of being able to put together a memorable performance.  I am a big fan of technical ability and that is one of the things that drew me to Dream Theater in the first place.


I gave Mangini a pass on ADTOE because he wasn't involved in the writing process.  With that said, for me ADTOE is a vastly superior album, musically speaking. 


Now it may be just the fact that DT12 isn't one of my favorite DT albums - So, by extension, the drums being the only really "NEW" thing in the mix of DT12, I'm starting to understand why some people are having a difficult time warming to Mangini's playing.  For me the biggest issue, unfortunately, is the lackluster nature of DT12.  I seem to rate it lower and lower over time, it's near the bottom of my list now.  And obviously that doesn't help me enjoy Mangini's drumming. 


For now I'm going to say the jury is still out on Mangini.  For me, that is. 

[RaiseTheKnife]

I just noticed that DT's day was a few days ago, May 8th (5/8) .

Yeah, I went looking for the DT Day thread that day but couldn't find it.  Honestly, I prefer Sept. 8 (9/8) anyways, as that's the day I've historically celebrated my favorite prog bands.

[Scorpion]

Well, for normal people DT day is on the 5th of August anyway, so...

[Kotowboy]

Well, for normal people DT day is on the 5th of August anyway, so...

[goo-goo]

So where's our update Dream Theater?

[RaiseTheKnife]

Well, for normal people DT day is on the 5th of August anyway, so...

Bah, save that date for the British prog rock bands.  There are plenty of 'em.  We Yanks will do the ole switcheroo date for the stateside rockers.

[ariich]

Well, for normal people DT day is on the 5th of August anyway, so...

Bah, save that date for the British prog rock bands.  There are plenty of 'em.  We Yanks will do the ole switcheroo date for the stateside rockers.

Not just British - pretty much every country in the world apart from 'Mericuh.

[erwinrafael]

I've spent some significant time with ADToE and DT12 over the last couple weeks. Setting aside the sound issues and focusing on
what MM has brought to the band and I have to say, even though I have a TON of respect for his super human abilities I just can't
seem to latch onto anything memorable or even a signature style. I know many will disagree with this and that is fine. I hope that
he is allowed to be unleashed and on his 3rd DT album we will see him shine and become an integral asset that raises the overall
level of the music.

I have been one of the more active advocates of Mangini in this forum, and I am still quite puzzled at why people would not find anything memorable in MM's playing in Illumination Theory, Surrender to Reason, The Enemy Inside, and The Looking Glass. The distinct patterns are there to be picked up, and  they do not sound generic at all.

I said before that maybe MM does not yet have a really distinct style because it's his first time to really put the drum ideas that he used to teach in Berklee as a full-time member of a band. But, if you have intently listened to the DT album, there are seeds of a distinct style there, which includes 1) the syncing and highlighting of what the other instruments are doing, sometimes displaying extreme limb independence with different limbs highlighting different instruments, 2) the use of left and right cymbals, especially for the rides and hi-hats where he plays his "ghost notes", 3) the purposive use of very fast drum speed, especially in The Enemy Inside and in the one handed drum rolls in IT, 4) polyrhythms, which is heard a lot in Illumination Theory, 5) odd time signature combinations, like the "mothers for their children..." part of IT, and the instrumental section of Surrender to Reason, and 6) his amazing command of the bass drums, which you could hear in TEI, IT, and BTV.

MM drums differently from how Portnoy composed his drum parts, but that is to be expected. MM's distinct style is not really heard in drum fills, which MP has gifted us with a lot of air-drumming moments over the years. MM's genius, however, manifests in how he drums the song along with the other instruments. I have been looking at drum covers in the internet, and I have not seen anybody play correctly how he highlighted the high harmony in The Bigger Picture instrumental using his ride cymbals, for example.

Or even the intro of IT, where he hits the downbeat on a large oriental cymbal with his left hand, small cymbal highlights and the snare with his right hand, double time hi-hat with his left leg, and the bass drum syncing with the other instruments with his right leg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD7v2sTr1Es&t=03m40s

It's those drumming moments, simple they may seem to be (but are actually difficult to play once you do it) where he contributes a lot to the song without calling much attention to himself with flashy fills.

[RodrigoAltaf]

I see your point...but some people just want the flashy fills.

[emtee]

^That's a great post and I agree with it. That doesn't change my opinion though. He is a master at blending in and accenting the other
instruments and his interdependent limbs and speed are astonishing but there is nothing that makes it memorable or lasting to me.
To be fair though he may not have the freedom that MP did where he had total creative license. Joining an established band is far
different than being an original member. I would hope that on this 3rd album he is given complete creative control over his parts and then
we will see how it sounds.

[erwinrafael]

I think he will if they do not stick to the short song structure. Short songs, even for MP, did not really allow the drums to noticeably shine especially with abbreviated instrumental parts. This is why MM's drumming gets displayed noticeably in IT. Given the short song structures, he did ok. Especially in TEI, TLG and STR.

[Kotowboy]

The other thing Mp did a lot was to do flashy fills when they weren't needed.  The one that comes to mind right now as I type this is the

" SS BB SSSS BB SS BB SSSS " just before the instrumental section 3:50 in Fatal Tragedy.

Plus some other big herta type fills in ballady songs that don't fit the mood.

[BlobVanDam]

There's nothing wrong with that fill. It fits perfectly. MM has also had sections where I felt he overplayed or played unnecessary fills (more so on the live DVDs). It goes with the territory. And I don't mean that's always a bad thing. I mean, it's DT.

[Sycsa]

" SS BB SSSS BB SS BB SSSS " just before the instrumental section 3:50 in Fatal Tragedy.

Yeah, I noticed that as well, it's a bit over the top. Or, I should say, more over the top than usual. It's not really a complaint though, this kind of playing fits DT and I love it. One of the highlights of BTFW for me is MM's huge drum fills. One could argue that that big fill in the slow part of The Shattered Fortress doesn't really fit, but that kind of playing is the main reason I prefer that rendition over the studio version.

[rumborak]

I don't think overplaying is the issue, on either side of the trench. To me it's more about the lack of "good beats" so to speak. MM directly follows different instruments with different limbs. Which is incredibly impressive of course, but that makes his drumming kinda disappear in the back. DT was, even for me as a guitar player, a lot about prominent drums and how they often re-interpreted certain sections, given them different feels. MM does almost no reinterpretation.

[Voices]

I think he will if they do not stick to the short song structure. Short songs, even for MP, did not really allow the drums to noticeably shine especially with abbreviated instrumental parts. This is why MM's drumming gets displayed noticeably in IT. Given the short song structures, he did ok. Especially in TEI, TLG and STR.

This. I believe that if DT13 go back into the "longer songs structure", we'll have the best from MM. I really like the way he highlights what the others are playing, but specially how detailed is his drumming style. IMO, MP was repeating himself in so many ways, that I started to find his drumming a bit predictable over the years.

[ResultsMayVary]

There's nothing wrong with that fill. It fits perfectly. MM has also had sections where I felt he overplayed or played unnecessary fills (more so on the live DVDs). It goes with the territory. And I don't mean that's always a bad thing. I mean, it's DT.

Exactly. Overplaying on a "ridiculous" scale is pretty much DT SOP, to a certain degree. There is a thing as too much, but I don't think DT reaches that particular plateau.

[rumborak]

Besides, that Fatal Tragedy fill couldn't fit any better. It makes for a perfect cut to the next section.

[Sycsa]

Besides, that Fatal Tragedy fill couldn't fit any better. It makes for a perfect cut to the next section.

As I said, I don't really have a problem with it (although I certainly see Kotowboy point of view, as this particular fill stood out to me a long time ago), but it's really nothing special, just the same overplayed RL KK RLRL KK Portnoy-ism he always does (other noticeable examples would include the fill before the final chorus of PMU and the beginning of Paradigm Shift). On the DVD 'Progressive Drum Concepts', he even acknowledges that he overplays this fill, and that was in the Awake-era. He didn't push himself too hard since then.

[Stadler]

There's nothing wrong with that fill. It fits perfectly. MM has also had sections where I felt he overplayed or played unnecessary fills (more so on the live DVDs). It goes with the territory. And I don't mean that's always a bad thing. I mean, it's DT.

HAHAHA, that's a great point.  Saying a member of Dream Theater "overplayed" is kinda like saying Kate Upton is TOO hot. 

[Lucien]

There's nothing wrong with that fill. It fits perfectly. MM has also had sections where I felt he overplayed or played unnecessary fills (more so on the live DVDs). It goes with the territory. And I don't mean that's always a bad thing. I mean, it's DT.

HAHAHA, that's a great point.  Saying a member of Dream Theater "overplayed" is kinda like saying Kate Upton is TOO hot.

yes because every dream theater song should have all the members playing as fast as they can all the time

Yes, there is a such thing as overplaying. I don't want to hear blast beats in my ambient music.

[rumborak]

To me, it always comes back to Enigma Machine. This was prime time DT showcase material; no vocals, pure focus on the instruments. MM unleashed, this was gonna be the moment.
Reality is, it's barely better than Raw Dog. The drum solo spot shines through its number of hit drums per second. Other than that there's nothing interesting or memorable about it.
Somewhere deep down I hope that MM is a more interesting drummer than he comes as across. All I see and hear are, pun intended, hand exercises.

[King Postwhore]

I think the issues to that instrumental is on the melody more than the drumming.

[TAC]

Reality is, it's barely better than Raw Dog.

Thank you..thank you.

I raised this when it was released. In fact, I'm taking Raw Dog every time.

[erwinrafael]

To me, it always comes back to Enigma Machine. This was prime time DT showcase material; no vocals, pure focus on the instruments. MM unleashed, this was gonna be the moment.
Reality is, it's barely better than Raw Dog. The drum solo spot shines through its number of hit drums per second. Other than that there's nothing interesting or memorable about it.
Somewhere deep down I hope that MM is a more interesting drummer than he comes as across. All I see and hear are, pun intended, hand exercises.

The highlight of the drumming in Enigma Machine is not the drum solo. It's the odd arrangment of the time signatures and the polyrhythns.

[rumborak]

I think the issues to that instrumental is on the melody more than the drumming.

There's no doubt that neither component shines in that song. Just like Raw Dog, it's essentially finger exercises, concatenated for minutes.
But, does that excuse MM? I know that sometimes you can't polish a turd, but a sign of a true star is to take an unfortunate scenario and transform it into something special. MM decided to go safe; not change the drum sound, not change the song.

[rumborak]

The highlight of the drumming in Enigma Machine is not the drum solo. It's the odd arrangment of the time signatures and the polyrhythns.

Can you point those out, as a genuine request? There's a good chance I'm simply not hearing it.

[King Postwhore]

I think the issues to that instrumental is on the melody more than the drumming.

There's no doubt that neither component shines in that song. Just like Raw Dog, it's essentially finger exercises, concatenated for minutes.
But, does that excuse MM? I know that sometimes you can't polish a turd, but a sign of a true star is to take an unfortunate scenario and transform it into something special. MM decided to go safe; not change the drum sound, not change the song.

While I agree that MM's style lends to the background rather than the forefront,  and that might be his personality, sometimes on instrument can't save a below average song.

[rumborak]

Ready for another can of worms?

Was MM the right decision during the audition? He was clearly one of the most capable, and even more so malleable. But it seems to me what DT really needed was a seismic shift, a la JR joining.

[TAC]

That's not a can of worms. It was asked after the choice was made. MM was obviously the safe choice, and the band was very happy with him. Now is the jump from MP to MM as large as the jump from DS to JR? No.

But They haven't exactly tapped JR's talents either.