"Saved by the EPIC?"

[RoeDent]

I think it's safe to say that, pre-release, the epics are among the most anticipated songs on any album that has them.

[Another_Won]

As for the OP's question, TheCountOfNYC really answers that.  I would say the only DT release that was saved by the epic is the Change of Seasons EP.

Yeah, but all the covers on that album, I pretty much consider to be bonus material. I've actually never heard of any CD that consisted of one studio song, and the remained consisting of live covers, so in itself, it's very unusual and hard to classify. It was supposed to be an album, but was forced an EP classifcation upon because of lack of original material. In the context of the Octavarium, it was counted as a live album. Like I said, I consider the live songs on it to be bonus material to fill CD space and make it worth the purchase, but the whole thing could even be considered like two releases in one.
Anyway my point is, when the whole purpose of it was the epic, it's hard to save that the album is saved by it, because without it, the album wouldn't have been released at all.

Fully agree.  ACoS is probably the only one that even comes close for me.  You're right, though, with what you point out it almost can't be considered.

[bosk1]

Dream Theater has seven songs that are more often than not considered epics with five that are almost always considered epics. For the sake of the discussion we'll go with the seven songs (I'm in the five camp personally). Those songs would be in chronological order: A Mind Beside Itself, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, and Illumination Theory.

Unfortunately, no.  Your premise if flawed since both the band and a large chunk of the fanbase would consider them to have more than 7 epics.  Not to mention the fact that A Mind Beside Itself is NOT an epic, since it is a suite of three short, non-epic songs. 

Fortunately, your post is "saved by the discussion of epics" after this initial misstep.

[Another_Won]

Dream Theater has seven songs that are more often than not considered epics with five that are almost always considered epics. For the sake of the discussion we'll go with the seven songs (I'm in the five camp personally). Those songs would be in chronological order: A Mind Beside Itself, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, and Illumination Theory.

Unfortunately, no.  Your premise if flawed since both the band and a large chunk of the fanbase would consider them to have more than 7 epics.  Not to mention the fact that A Mind Beside Itself is NOT an epic, since it is a suite of three short, non-epic songs. 

Fortunately, your post is "saved by the discussion of epics" after this initial misstep.

While AMBI doesn't fit the strict definition of an epic,  it gets thrown into the bunch much the same way the 12-step suite would.  I guess you wouldn't consider that to be an epic either?  Would you consider the DT epics to just be the seven he mentioned just without AMBI?

. . . oh and "saved by the discussion of epics"

[hefdaddy42]

Not sure why anyone would consider the 12-step suite an epic.  It is a collection of songs.

[TheGreatPretender]

Not sure why anyone would consider the 12-step suite an epic.  It is a collection of songs.

It is an epic though, in the same way that Metropolis Part 2 would be considered an epic. When experienced in its entirety, it's a grand (albeit, mostly really heavy) journey, with a ton of nuggets and recurring themes.

Though if you ask me, I'd say the same thing about SDOIT. It's an epic in the same way as SFAM, being the second half of a double album, it's essentially a 40 minute concept album in and of itself. I know DT refers to it as a song, but honestly, to me that comes off as almost a bragging rights thing, to say, "We have a 40+ minute song, that's how prog we are." I'm not gonna argue with people who consider it one song, but personally, if I were to, let's say, list my top 50, I'd consider Solitary Shell, TTTSTA, etc. to be separate entries.

[hefdaddy42]

Not sure why anyone would consider the 12-step suite an epic.  It is a collection of songs.

It is an epic though, in the same way that Metropolis Part 2 would be considered an epic.

Yes, they are both "an epic" in the same way - neither is an epic.

Though if you ask me, I'd say the same thing about SDOIT. It's an epic in the same way as SFAM, being the second half of a double album, it's essentially a 40 minute concept album in and of itself. I know DT refers to it as a song, but honestly, to me that comes off as almost a bragging rights thing, to say, "We have a 40+ minute song, that's how prog we are." I'm not gonna argue with people who consider it one song, but personally, if I were to, let's say, list my top 50, I'd consider Solitary Shell, TTTSTA, etc. to be separate entries.

Not sure what to tell you.  It's one song, and has always been described as such even before the album was released.  It's not NOT one song just because you don't like that it's one song.

[TheGreatPretender]

Not sure what to tell you.  It's one song, and has always been described as such even before the album was released.  It's not NOT one song just because you don't like that it's one song.

Well, according to Greatest Hit compilation, TTTSTA, and Solitary Shell, are also both one song each, so apparently SDOIT is one song that has a bunch of other solitary songs within it.

[hefdaddy42]

Not sure what to tell you.  It's one song, and has always been described as such even before the album was released.  It's not NOT one song just because you don't like that it's one song.

Well, according to Greatest Hit compilation, TTTSTA, and Solitary Shell, are also both one song each, so apparently SDOIT is one song that has a bunch of other solitary songs within it.

I wasn't aware that radio single edits are the defining characteristics of songs.

[TheGreatPretender]

I wasn't aware that radio single edits are the defining characteristics of songs.

What does them being radio single edits have anything to do with the fact that they're songs? They're on the album, they're both separate entities which make up a part of the "21 other pretty cool songs", so they're two pretty cool songs, as according to Mike Portnoy. They're not labeled, "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - IV. The Test That Stumped Them All" and "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - VI. Solitary Shell" to give any indication that they might be excerpts of some other song. It's just "The Test That Stumped Them All," and "Solitary Shell." Which are both pretty cool songs.
Aside from that, you know what often is a defining characteristic of a song? The fact that it's its own separate track on the CD. ACOS wasn't divided into its movements, neither was 8VM, and even Illumination Theory, which has some of the most concise breaks I've ever heard between movements of an epic, is kept in tact as one track. Yet SDOIT is divided into 8 tracks like an album, rather than one single song.
I don't understand why everything has to be so cut and dry with you. Some things just aren't always clearly defined. What's wrong with that?

[TheCountOfNYC]

Dream Theater has seven songs that are more often than not considered epics with five that are almost always considered epics. For the sake of the discussion we'll go with the seven songs (I'm in the five camp personally). Those songs would be in chronological order: A Mind Beside Itself, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, and Illumination Theory.

Unfortunately, no.  Your premise if flawed since both the band and a large chunk of the fanbase would consider them to have more than 7 epics.  Not to mention the fact that A Mind Beside Itself is NOT an epic, since it is a suite of three short, non-epic songs. 

Fortunately, your post is "saved by the discussion of epics" after this initial misstep.

I don't consider AMBI to be an epic either nor do I consider TCoT to be an epic. I only consider ACoS, SFoIT, 8VM, ItPoE, and IT to be DT epics. I do know that I have seen quite a few people on here say the other two songs mentioned above are epics along with songs like Metropolis, ToT, and ItNoG. I wanted to give an analysis of more than four songs since ACoS isn't on an album but I didn't want to delve into every song that could possibly be considered an epic. I feel that more people on here include AMBI and TCoT with the epics than any of their other longer songs so I decided that for the sake of discussion and analysis, I would include those two as well. I apologize if I'm wrong, but I was simply going by what I have seen since joining this forum.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, MP as I recall, always described songs like ITNOG, ToT and Finally Free as epics. In fact, there was an interview or something I remember reading, where he basically described most Dream Theater albums as always closing with the epic at the very end. And it's when I realized that aside from a couple of exceptions, their albums always close with their longest songs, (even though technically, if you remove the "radio drama" ending of Finally Free, it's actually shorter than Home).

[TheCountOfNYC]

Well, MP as I recall, always described songs like ITNOG, ToT and Finally Free as epics. In fact, there was an interview or something I remember reading, where he basically described most Dream Theater albums as always closing with the epic at the very end. And it's when I realized that aside from a couple of exceptions, their albums always close with their longest songs, (even though technically, if you remove the "radio drama" ending of Finally Free, it's actually shorter than Home).

It's still shorter than Home. Home runs at 12:53. Finally Free runs at 11:59. But I realized this as well. Eight albums close with the longest song (IaW FII, SDoIT, TOT, 8VM, SC, BCaSL, and DT12), two close with the second longest (WDaDU and SFaM), and two have their longest song as the second to last track with a softer song closing (Awake and ADToE). Basically, the long song has some role in the album climax. This is what I mentioned in the IT section of my original post. These long songs tend to give a sense of finality to the album and that's part of what makes them so great. You feel musically satisfied because of them.

[rumborak]

I thought that when AC Slater left the show, it had already jumped the shark.


Oh. Saved by the epic.

[TheGreatPretender]

It's still shorter than Home. Home runs at 12:53. Finally Free runs at 11:59. But I realized this as well. Eight albums close with the longest song (IaW FII, SDoIT, TOT, 8VM, SC, BCaSL, and DT12), two close with the second longest (WDaDU and SFaM), and two have their longest song as the second to last track with a softer song closing (Awake and ADToE). Basically, the long song has some role in the album climax. This is what I mentioned in the IT section of my original post. These long songs tend to give a sense of finality to the album and that's part of what makes them so great. You feel musically satisfied because of them.

Yeah, exactly. With ADTOE, if you look at an album like a story or a journey, I'd almost consider songs like Beneath The Surface, or Space-Dye Vest to be epilogues. Without them, the album would still have that sense of finality and satisfaction, but with them, it's almost like cooling down after exercising, it eases you off the "high" in a way. Space-Dye Vest does get a bit intense toward the end, but it still feels like an epilogue to me.

SFAM is actually a very unusual case, because even without Finally Free, it would still get a very satisfying ending with TSCO, and the way that Finally Free starts out, it almost does feel like the epilogue, like you're expecting something mellow that kind of eases you off the ride the way Beneath The Surface did, but instead, the tone changes right off the bat into something darker and more sinister, and it throws the big twist at you and presents you with more "drama" than any previous part of the album/story. So it's definitely far from DT's usual formula.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't understand why everything has to be so cut and dry with you. Some things just aren't always clearly defined. What's wrong with that?

If the intentions of the band are clear, that is cut and dry to me.

The presentation of 6DOIT on the album was the definitive presentation.  MP himself stated that the only reason it was divided into different tracks is because of the immense running time of the complete song.  So that is pretty cut and dry.

The next most definitive presentation was the live recording on SCORE.  It is presented as one piece, continuous.  That, to me, again, is cut and dry.

The fact that a couple of radio edits of sections of the song are included on the Greatest Hit package aren't really indicative of anything qualitative or declarative.  They made some edits to try to get publicity via the radio.  No other way to get them, so MP threw them on this package.  No big deal, it's a bonus to fans who buy it, as are various other edits throughout that package.  It makes for not buying stuff you've already bought, it's a novelty.  Nothing more.

So I am only taking into account the way the band has presented the song and talked about the song.  I am not bringing any personal observation or agenda into it, because it is not MY artistic creation.  That's why it is cut and dry for me.

If you have a different opinion, fine. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Art is subjective though, and oftentimes a work of art, the way its interpreted by others is entirely different from what the artist intended. Like I said, I'm not gonna argue with people who only accept SDOIT as a single entity. Depending on my mood, I enjoy it as such as well. But I think it can be seen in a number of ways, and when it comes to those radio edits, I gladly listen to and treat them as separate songs.
Though frankly, I don't think SDOIT is as good as the sum of its parts, and certain parts of it really bog it down.

[hefdaddy42]

Art is subjective though, and oftentimes a work of art, the way its interpreted by others is entirely different from what the artist intended.

But to state that the artist is not correct in the substance of what they are presenting seems presumptuous to me, especially if the only evidence for such opposition is subjective opinion.

[chaossystem]

As a forum user, I'm going to say here and now that I am not making any assumptions about your character or personality. What I will say is that I find your posts and posting style extremely irritating and arrogant. The questions you pose almost come across like "I think all the users here are idiots. Let's see who agrees or if any idiots disagree."

Arrogant?  Not my impression at all.  Although I agree about the "poll littering."

Chaos has taken a TON of flak lately (from me included, see above), but he's taken it all in good stride and good spirit I think.  It appears that he is simply trying to reach a purer understanding of DT fandom.   This sometimes means lumping things together into generalities to determine a more finite answer out of the wash.   Whether or not this can be or is worthwhile to achieve is another topic.

RTN is right.
I don't begin to understand how asking questions based on points that other people have raised could or should be construed as "arrogant" and/or "calling people idiots!"

And yes, it is true that I am trying to gain a better understanding of how the people on here think regarding the band, as well as satisfy my own curiosity about some things, especially when it comes to how well-liked some of the songs that really stand out for me, and which songs are most popular.
But there seems to be this attitude that if someone makes a mistake it's like a weakness to be exploited.
Sometimes I-like a lot of other people-don't always have the right words. I'm not always going to say the right thing in the right way.

As far as THIS topic is concerned, I think I have already made it clear that I'm not judging ANY-one about ANY-thing. Someone else mentioned that the band seemed to be on this particualr "trend," and I just took the idea and ran with it.
Because, like I said: I'm curious to know what you people think. But there are no wrong answers to these questions.

[bosk1]

I don't consider AMBI to be an epic either nor do I consider TCoT to be an epic. I only consider ACoS, SFoIT, 8VM, ItPoE, and IT to be DT epics. I do know that I have seen quite a few people on here say the other two songs mentioned above are epics along with songs like Metropolis, ToT, and ItNoG. I wanted to give an analysis of more than four songs since ACoS isn't on an album but I didn't want to delve into every song that could possibly be considered an epic. I feel that more people on here include AMBI and TCoT with the epics than any of their other longer songs so I decided that for the sake of discussion and analysis, I would include those two as well. I apologize if I'm wrong, but I was simply going by what I have seen since joining this forum.

Well, it was still a good analysis anyway.  It's just not an "epic," since that term generally applies to single songs, not suites or albums.  There may be a few who mistakenly refer to it as an epic, but it is a small minority.  The other ones you mentioned, along with TCOT, are the ones more broadly understood to be epics.  But there are a LOT of other songs the band and/or a lot of fans also consider to be epics, such as other ones I mentioned in my first post, such as Trial of Tears, In The Name Of God, etc.

Art is subjective though, and oftentimes a work of art, the way its interpreted by others is entirely different from what the artist intended.

No, actually you are blurring together completely different concepts.  Art itself is not subjective.  Interpretation of the meaning of art is subjective.  As Hef said, the band has declared unequivocally what SDOIT is.  That is objective and is "cut and dried."  Your interpretation of what the song means to you or how it makes you feel is up to you.

[erwinrafael]

SDOIT is one song.

[chaossystem]

Personally, for me length doesn't really matter, it's the structure that defines an epic. I mean, ideally, there needs to be enough time to digest every single bit of music, so an epic typically has to have length, but as far as I'm concerned, Learning to Live is an epic, BAI is an epic, Trial of Tears is an Epic, they all have not only length, but also they're extremely progressive, and the music changes and grows into something new and great as the song progresses, that's far more important than the length of a song. I mean, A Nightmare to Remember is 15 minutes long, but it's heavy parts that bookend the song are very concise and similar, and so as a result, I wouldn't call that song an epic.
Whereas The Dance of Eternity is constantly changing and growing into something new as it goes on, so even short of 7 minutes, I consider that instrumental an epic. Mini epic, at least.

But no, there's no "Saved by the epic" going on. If DT12 had 2 or 3 more short songs instead of Illumination Theory, it would still be a fantastic album.
OTBOA, its best songs aren't epics. BC&SL, the epic in it is just as inconsistent as the rest of it. SC is fantastic all the way through.

I don't think a song has to have a lot of changes in it to be considered an epic. Maybe we could say that "Nightmare" is more of a "metal" epic than a "prog" epic.
I think there are some heavy metal songs that could be considered epics based on length at least as much as melody. Iron Maiden's "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" is one of the first ones that comes to my mind. There are also some songs by Metallica that come to mind. "...And Justice for All" I think would be a good example, as well as some of the other songs from that album, (One) and I'm sure there are a lot of people who consider "Master of Puppets" to be an epic.
Also, I don't think "epic" is always defined by length. I've heard at least one person refer to Queensryche's "Empire" as an epic, even though it's less than five and a half minutes in length!

But I think we may be holding Dream Theater to a different standard, since we're USED to so many of their songs being more than five or six minutes long.

As an example: I thought it was HILARIOUS when Fadetoblackdude7 referred to "Learning to Live" as being "only" eleven-and-a-half minutes long!
When did THAT happen?
I SINCERELY DOUBT if the following words are EVER going to come out of ANY radio DJ's mouth, ever!: "Sorry to disappoint you, but the next song is ONLY eleven and a half minutes long."

This is why I was asking if any of you considered any of DT's songs that are under 20 min. to be epics.

[wolfking]

SDOIT is one song.

I have always strongly disagreed with this.

[erwinrafael]

SDOIT is one song.

I have always strongly disagreed with this.

You disagree with the songwriters?

[Dublagent66]

This is why I was asking if any of you considered any of DT's songs that are under 20 min. to be epics.

Yes, DT has many epics under 20 mins in length.  As I posted earlier, length is only one aspect of a song that doesn't necessarily determine the quality of the song.  Although quality in itself is a subjective term based on a individual's personal taste and then again, so is "epic" generally speaking.

I'm not gonna argue with people who only accept SDOIT as a single entity. Depending on my mood, I enjoy it as such as well. But I think it can be seen in a number of ways, and when it comes to those radio edits, I gladly listen to and treat them as separate songs.
Though frankly, I don't think SDOIT is as good as the sum of its parts, and certain parts of it really bog it down.

There really is no point in arguing that SDOIT is a single entity because that's exactly what it is.  Overture sets the musical ground work for what the next 7 movements contain as parts of the whole.  I think SDOIT is greater than the sum of its parts and I don't believe anything bogs it down.  I suppose it's ok to consider SDOIT a collection of songs within a song just as some may consider the song an album within an album based on its length and 8 separate tracks.  I totally get that.  It's imaginative and a fun way to look at it, but at the end of the day, it's still just one song on one album that happened to be too much material to fit on one disc.

[TheGreatPretender]

Okay, let me just give you an analogy on how I see SDOIT:

Imagine a painter paints this big collage which consists of, let's say 9 different paintings which all come together to form the bigger picture, one big piece of art that cohesively flows together and makes a grand statement.
Then, once that initial exhibition is done, that artist starts to display each piece of that collage separately here and there. Sometimes two at a time, sometimes one, sometimes the whole thing again.
At the point where he starts doing that, each piece of the collage becomes its own painting, and is subject to being experienced and analyzed on its own merits rather than as a part of the greater whole. And critics, or just art enthusiasts can easily say, "Well, my favorite of this artist's paintings is Solitary Shell (for example)."
That's how I see SDOIT. Yes, it was created as one piece, and presented as such on the album. But as soon as they started releasing and performing bits and pieces of it separately, they fragmented it into bits that can easily be considered separate songs.

[Randaran]

I don't think a song has to have a lot of changes in it to be considered an epic. Maybe we could say that "Nightmare" is more of a "metal" epic than a "prog" epic.
I think there are some heavy metal songs that could be considered epics based on length at least as much as melody. Iron Maiden's "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" is one of the first ones that comes to my mind. There are also some songs by Metallica that come to mind. "...And Justice for All" I think would be a good example, as well as some of the other songs from that album, (One) and I'm sure there are a lot of people who consider "Master of Puppets" to be an epic.
Also, I don't think "epic" is always defined by length.

As I said earlier, length alone does not make a song an epic. Of the ones you mentioned, the only one I consider to be an epic is "Rime of the Ancient Mariner". Both Justice and Puppets, though longer than most of Metallica's work, follow standard structure, only breaking from it in the song's respective bridges. Metallica's ballads, however, may qualify, though I have not given the matter enough thought to determine things one way or the other.

But I think we may be holding Dream Theater to a different standard, since we're USED to so many of their songs being more than five or six minutes long.

As an example: I thought it was HILARIOUS when Fadetoblackdude7 referred to "Learning to Live" as being "only" eleven-and-a-half minutes long!
When did THAT happen?
I SINCERELY DOUBT if the following words are EVER going to come out of ANY radio DJ's mouth, ever!: "Sorry to disappoint you, but the next song is ONLY eleven and a half minutes long."

This is why I was asking if any of you considered any of DT's songs that are under 20 min. to be epics.

Yeah, ever since I began listening to DT, my perceptions of what constitutes a 'long' song have been distorted. 

[chaossystem]

I'm in the minority, but I&W, FII, TOT and ADTOE are the only albums on which the longest song is my favorite. I enjoy most of DT's 10-14-minute songs, but the only "big" epic (over 20 minutes long) that I love is ACOS, so I can't agree that the later albums have been saved by the epics - in fact, they usually drag the albums down IMO. I think the 90s albums and ADTOE had a good balance between shorter and longer songs.

While I don't agree that the longer songs "drag the albums down," I also don't always think they're the best part of it. Especially in the case of "12."
ACoS is the one  over 20 min. epic that stands out for me the the most as well.
While I love the title track from "Octavarium," for me it is not the one song from that album that makes it worth having and listening to.It is one of five or six songs from the same album that I think deserve at least SOME positive attention.

I do like it when they play at least one song that is fifteen minutes or more at their live shows.

But I would also like to see them try the "spreading song-length out more" approach, like they did on "Dramatic.
It may be that it wasn't a CONSCIOUS decision, but who knows...

[chaossystem]

One more thing I would like to ask is: Are there some of you who would still love the band if they kept all of their songs under ten minutes in length, or are ALL of you "dependent" on the epics?
Or are most of you like me, in that you love everything that DT does, as long as they do it well?

Well, the first part of this statement to me is invalid, as DT are a band that ventue into long song territory.  I don't think DT would be DT if all their songs were under 10 minutes, that's a different band.

Also, I don't see how anyone could be 'dependant' on epics.  That doesn't make much sense to me.

I still think it's funny that a song has to be over 8 or 9 minutes to be considered "long" or an "epic."

As for the word "dependent:" I wish I had aother word for it. I've been struggling with trying to find another way to say it.

[TAC]

This thread is giving me a headache.

[wolfking]

SDOIT is one song.

I have always strongly disagreed with this.

You disagree with the songwriters?

The songwriters didn't give me anything to disagree with.

[Outcrier]

I still think it's funny that a song has to be over 8 or 9 minutes to be considered "long" or an "epic."

Well, i'm sure a 2 minute song isn't long 

[wolfking]

One more thing I would like to ask is: Are there some of you who would still love the band if they kept all of their songs under ten minutes in length, or are ALL of you "dependent" on the epics?
Or are most of you like me, in that you love everything that DT does, as long as they do it well?

Well, the first part of this statement to me is invalid, as DT are a band that venture into long song territory.  I don't think DT would be DT if all their songs were under 10 minutes, that's a different band.

Also, I don't see how anyone could be 'dependant' on epics.  That doesn't make much sense to me.

I still think it's funny that a song has to be over 8 or 9 minutes to be considered "long" or an "epic."

As for the word "dependent:" I wish I had aother word for it. I've been struggling with trying to find another way to say it.

I didn't say that. 

[chaossystem]

This thread is giving me a headache.

So take some aspirin and go to bed.

[chaossystem]

I thought that when AC Slater left the show, it had already jumped the shark.


Oh. Saved by the epic.

That would be a topic for the General Discussion threads.

But it's too bad they didn't get rid of Screech instead.