Author Topic: "Saved by the EPIC?"  (Read 43864 times)

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #280 on: February 10, 2015, 08:28:20 AM »
How is In The Name of God *NOT* an Epic ?!

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #281 on: February 10, 2015, 09:52:57 AM »
How is In The Name of God *NOT* an Epic ?!
Cause it's not.  It's just a long song.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #282 on: February 10, 2015, 10:37:43 AM »
With a dip in the middle?
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #283 on: February 10, 2015, 10:39:01 AM »
With a dip in the middle?
When I dip, you dip.

WE dip.
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #284 on: February 10, 2015, 11:50:43 AM »
With a dip in the middle?
When I dip, you dip.

WE dip.

...in the name of god?

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #285 on: February 10, 2015, 11:51:37 AM »
Whatever it takes.
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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #286 on: February 10, 2015, 01:12:44 PM »
You say Tomato, and I say Tomato........
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Offline wizard of Thought

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #287 on: February 10, 2015, 02:19:53 PM »
How is In The Name of God *NOT* an Epic ?!
Cause it's not.  It's just a long song.

Wait a second. What did you just say?  :omg:

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #288 on: February 10, 2015, 02:24:17 PM »
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #289 on: February 10, 2015, 04:48:05 PM »
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #290 on: February 10, 2015, 06:04:40 PM »
Only on a prog forum could we be discussing whether a fourteen minute song is an epic or not :lol

Offline fischermasamune

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #291 on: February 10, 2015, 07:01:58 PM »
With only 14 minutes ITNOG is a miniepic.

Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #292 on: February 10, 2015, 09:47:02 PM »
Only on a prog forum could we be discussing whether a fourteen minute song is an epic or not :lol
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #293 on: February 11, 2015, 07:08:44 AM »
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
I agree that it's function on the album is equivalent to that of Trial of Tears.  But I don't classify either one as an "epic."
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Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #294 on: February 11, 2015, 02:18:34 PM »
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
I agree that it's function on the album is equivalent to that of Trial of Tears.  But I don't classify either one as an "epic."

What in your opinion keeps these songs from reaching "epic" status?
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #295 on: February 11, 2015, 02:20:27 PM »
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
I agree that it's function on the album is equivalent to that of Trial of Tears.  But I don't classify either one as an "epic."

What in your opinion keeps these songs from reaching "epic" status?

6 minutes apparently.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #296 on: February 11, 2015, 03:44:02 PM »
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
I agree that it's function on the album is equivalent to that of Trial of Tears.  But I don't classify either one as an "epic."

What in your opinion keeps these songs from reaching "epic" status?

6 minutes apparently.

I think hef means that ACOS sort of set the standard. I agree with him. Back then, I thought Metropolis is an epic, then ACOS  came out and made me think "ooohhh, this is different." And it's not just the length, it just seems more ambitious in its goals. Not necessarily the best songs, but I would say the most ambitious.  Right now I only treat four songs as epic because of the ACOS standard.

Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #297 on: February 11, 2015, 03:58:38 PM »
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
I agree that it's function on the album is equivalent to that of Trial of Tears.  But I don't classify either one as an "epic."

What in your opinion keeps these songs from reaching "epic" status?

6 minutes apparently.

I think hef means that ACOS sort of set the standard. I agree with him. Back then, I thought Metropolis is an epic, then ACOS  came out and made me think "ooohhh, this is different." And it's not just the length, it just seems more ambitious in its goals. Not necessarily the best songs, but I would say the most ambitious.  Right now I only treat four songs as epic because of the ACOS standard.

Those are undoubtedly more epic than the others, but the difference between ACOS and ITNOG (just for example) is nowhere near as big as that between ITNOG and a truly "regular" song like, say, Forsaken.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #298 on: February 12, 2015, 06:50:57 AM »
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
I agree that it's function on the album is equivalent to that of Trial of Tears.  But I don't classify either one as an "epic."

What in your opinion keeps these songs from reaching "epic" status?

6 minutes apparently.

I think hef means that ACOS sort of set the standard. I agree with him. Back then, I thought Metropolis is an epic, then ACOS  came out and made me think "ooohhh, this is different." And it's not just the length, it just seems more ambitious in its goals. Not necessarily the best songs, but I would say the most ambitious.  Right now I only treat four songs as epic because of the ACOS standard.
Pretty much.  Opinions might vary for newer fans, I suppose, but I go back to 1992.  They had all these great songs that were longer than normal, but then there was ACOS, which was in a class by itself.  Nothing that came before matched it, in either length or ambition.  So that was the epic.

Then there was Six Degrees, and then Octavarium.

Then came ITPOE, which certainly matched those others in length, but it doesn't really feel the same to me.  It just feels like a long song.  But I'm OK with people calling it an epic, because it does have the length.

I would fit TCOT into the same category as ITPOE.  It's a long song, and if people want to call it an epic, fine.

Along came Illumination Theory, which to me feels like the older epics.  So, for me, I have four epics, and two others that are on the edge (maybe/maybe not).
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #299 on: February 12, 2015, 08:42:46 AM »
1992 fan as well.  And I have pretty much always considered most of the longer DT songs (pretty much anything pushing the 10 minute mark or above) to be epics.  But along the lines of what Hef said, yes, there are certainly elements that set the longer, mega-epics apart. 
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Offline Jaq

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #300 on: February 13, 2015, 11:19:04 AM »
Oh the epic discussion.

Back in the day, my definition of epic as it seems to be in the prog community was "anything that takes up an entire vinyl side" Which of course started requiring adjustments practically immediately since Supper's Ready by Genesis isn't the only song on the old vinyl. Nevertheless, the epic to me, growing up, was the side long song in the main. And given how many old vinyl albums were released with sub-15 minute long songs, I don't have any problem with someone calling a 14 minute long song an epic. Honestly the prog community seems to thing an epic is "plus 20 minutes, has roman numerals in the titles of each part, special exemption granted to Close to the Edge unless you're really stringent in your definitions." 14 minutes is eight minutes shy of the average sitcom without commercials. That's pretty damn epic.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #301 on: February 13, 2015, 03:17:44 PM »
How is In The Name of God *NOT* an Epic ?!
Cause it's not.  It's just a long song.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about IT.....with a dip in the middle.  :lol
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #302 on: February 13, 2015, 03:25:22 PM »
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #303 on: February 14, 2015, 03:49:40 PM »
I already made that joke.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=42921.msg1921384#msg1921384

Yeah, I reused your material in reference to another less epic song that also reuses material.  It was perfect.  Thank you.   :lol
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Offline Mosh

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #304 on: February 14, 2015, 07:28:44 PM »
I think your definition of Epic really depends on your musical background prior to finding Dream Theater. I'm used to bands like Iron Maiden and Metallica where anything that crosses the 8 minute barrier is an epic. You'll find Maiden fans who consider even 7 minute songs to be epics. So with Dream Theater, while that 8 minute rule is a bit more loose due to the nature of their songs (I don't consider OTBOA and Endless Sacrifice epics, for example), I'm a bit more liberal about what DT songs count as "epics" to me than a lot of people on here. If I came from a background of prog rock where an epic was any song that took up a side of vinyl, I'd probably see it differently.
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Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #305 on: February 15, 2015, 12:11:49 AM »
For me, the primary criterion when it comes to whether something is an epic or not is the arrangement, not the length. Length doesn't really cut it. Say you have two songs, both with two 16-bar verses, three 16-bar choruses, a 16-bar intro, 16-bar solo, and 8-bar outro. That's 120 measures. But say one song is at 6/8 time at 150 BPM and the other in 4/4 at 70. The one would be just 2:24 and the other would be 6:51, but there's no difference in the actual scope of the song, the same way that if ACOS was written at a 25% faster BPM, it would be just as epic (though likely less epic in the superlative sense of the term).

So, for me, what defines whether a song is an epic or not is whether it adds to the typical arrangement of a song. A typical song has 2-3 verses and 2-4 choruses, along with an optional bridge, intro, outro, small instrumental break (typically before verse 2) and larger instrumental break (often consisting of or including a guitar or keyboard solo, sometimes even both). A song that has all of these--3 verses, 4 choruses, a bridge, an intro of some substance, an outro, a solo, a riff break after the solo, and a verse break, would be about the longest non-epic song you could get (especially if at a slow BPM, at which point you might be pushing ten minutes). Once a song starts tacking on other things--the extra-long instrumental break, two or three solo breaks, a full-on overture up front, multiple styles of verses and choruses, bridges that morph into entire movements, etc. etc. it's an epic. How epic it is varies--ACOS is obviously further along this continuum than Endless Sacrifice is. Note also that The Killing Hand, with its eight verses and umpteen instrumental breaks, is decidedly more epic than, say, Outcry, whose single stretch of the traditional song format is the extended instrumental section. A song like, say, TROAE is basically the dividing line for me. Most of the song is obviously very standard structurally, but there's the extended bridge with the tempo change, a unison break that leads to a tradeoff solo, a fairly long intro, an outro that introduces a new theme, and even the chorus has an interesting arrangement, kind of split into two halves. Could go either way on it. But anything over the TROAE line is "an epic" for me, though how easily each song earns that distinction obviously varies. Clearly the 20+ minute songs tend to be an extra order of magnitude above the rest, but it's equally erroneous to put ANTR into the same "just a song" category as Burning My Soul as it is to put Take The Time into the same "epic" category as ACOS.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.