Author Topic: "Saved by the EPIC?"  (Read 43859 times)

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Online The Letter M

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #105 on: December 13, 2014, 04:42:08 PM »
Had Scenes From A Memory been originally released on vinyl, it would have been a double album with Act 1 as the whole first vinyl and Act 2 on the second. But it's not considered a double album because it just happened to fit. If CDs could hold 100 minutes, then Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence would have definitely been a single CD album, and there'd be none of this "Disc 1 vs Disc 2" business that fans get their panties in a twist for. Put the album on an iPod and what happens? It's one album. No discs, no vinyl sides, nothing but six songs on one album, just as it should be, especially intended by the band.

This is a different conversation entirely, but the whole Disc 1 vs. Disc 2 thing is probably not just because of the physical medium. I mean, the songs on the first CD and the songs on the second CD were written in completely different sessions. They took a break after the first 5 songs, and then got together and banged out the second CD after, so I think the division stems more from the approach of the writing sessions, not just from the fact that they have two separate CDs.

Sounds reasonably plausible, although I was unaware (until now, and having just read through MP's FAQ about SDOIT) that there were two separate sessions for the writing of the album. Regardless of when they were written, there'd be no argument about "Disc 1 vs Disc 2" had the album been released on one single medium rather than two pieces. It would just be "the title track vs anything-else-on-the-album" and the title track would probably have the same reverence as "Octavarium" on its respective album, being the epic title track at the end of the album.

-Marc.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #106 on: December 13, 2014, 04:49:32 PM »
See, I don't know if that's true. While Octavarium might be the single most beloved song on its album, I imagine there'd be a much bigger ratio of people who'd say, "Octavarium over all those other awesome songs? No way."
As much as I love it, honestly, the first three songs on Octavarium alone are enough to sway me to prefer the first half of the album.
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Offline Skeever

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #107 on: December 14, 2014, 09:33:33 AM »
I would not take SDOIT disc 2 over disc 1 - disc 1 is some of the best music DT have done in my opinion. I would take Octavarium over the rest of the album, though.

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #108 on: December 14, 2014, 03:32:51 PM »
See, I don't know if that's true. While Octavarium might be the single most beloved song on its album, I imagine there'd be a much bigger ratio of people who'd say, "Octavarium over all those other awesome songs? No way."
As much as I love it, honestly, the first three songs on Octavarium alone are enough to sway me to prefer the first half of the album.

I think you are in the minority my friend.  Time for Chaossystem to start a new poll!!
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Offline chaossystem

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #109 on: December 14, 2014, 03:50:53 PM »
No thanks.

I'm getting too much shit for doing that the way it is.

However, if you check Destiny of Chaos's poll, Octavarium usually seem to be ahead by about 9 or 10 votes.

It's up to YOU-whoever you may BE-to decide what THAT means.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #110 on: December 14, 2014, 03:57:57 PM »
I think it is unfair to say that the Octavarium is a case of Saved by the Epic because that album was intended to revolve around the epic. I enjoyed the other songs in that album, especially These Walls and TROAE. But Octavarium would obviously be the favorite because it was intended by the band to be the showcase.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #111 on: December 14, 2014, 03:59:26 PM »
See, I don't know if that's true. While Octavarium might be the single most beloved song on its album, I imagine there'd be a much bigger ratio of people who'd say, "Octavarium over all those other awesome songs? No way."
As much as I love it, honestly, the first three songs on Octavarium alone are enough to sway me to prefer the first half of the album.

I think you are in the minority my friend.  Time for Chaossystem to start a new poll!!

Well, speaking of that, according to the Octavarium polls there are 31 people who voted for something other than Octavarium, versus 90 that voted for the title track, that's just over 25% of people who prefer a single song on the album over Octavarium, which might seem like a pretty big difference, but that does prove that there are songs on the album that other people consider to be great. So I do wonder how many of those 90 people would take Octavarium over ALL the other songs on the album combined. I mean, maybe, maybe not, but I don't think it would be all that farfetched to say that quite a few people wouldn't choose Octavarium over all 7 of the other songs, or any combination of them.
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Online The Letter M

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #112 on: December 14, 2014, 04:32:20 PM »
Interesting points all around. Anyone want to start a series of "Epic Vs Non-Epics" Polls?
SDOIT - "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" VS The First 5 Tracks
TOT - "In The Name Of God" VS The First 6 Tracks
8VM - "Octavarium" VA The First 7 Tracks
SC - "In The Presence Of Enemies" VS The Other 6 Tracks
BC&SL - "The Count Of Tuscany" VS The First 5 Tracks
DT12 - "Illumination Theory" VS The First 8 Tracks

It would be interesting to see how many would choose just the one epic over the rest of the album, or if the other songs are just as, if not more favorable over the epics when combined?

-Marc.
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Offline chaossystem

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #113 on: December 14, 2014, 05:10:54 PM »
Interesting points all around. Anyone want to start a series of "Epic Vs Non-Epics" Polls?
SDOIT - "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" VS The First 5 Tracks
TOT - "In The Name Of God" VS The First 6 Tracks
8VM - "Octavarium" VA The First 7 Tracks
SC - "In The Presence Of Enemies" VS The Other 6 Tracks
BC&SL - "The Count Of Tuscany" VS The First 5 Tracks
DT12 - "Illumination Theory" VS The First 8 Tracks

It would be interesting to see how many would choose just the one epic over the rest of the album, or if the other songs are just as, if not more favorable over the epics when combined?

-Marc.

We could just do that on here!
INSTEAD of starting a new poll/thread>

Here's my contribution to your idea, Marc:

SDoIT-The Glass Prison (unless the 2nd disc can be broken up into individual tracks, in which case I choose About to Crash)
ToT-As I Am
8VM-The Root of All Evil
SC-In the Presence of Enemies (I HATE having to pick one song from this album, because I think ITPoE, CM, TDEN, and Forsaken are all equally good)
BS & SL-A Rite of Passage (TSF is a close second)
DT12-Behind the Veil
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 05:35:13 PM by chaossystem »
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #114 on: December 14, 2014, 05:41:50 PM »
SDOIT song
Rest of ToT
Octavarium song
ITPOE part 1 only
Rest of BC&SL
IT

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #115 on: December 14, 2014, 05:49:11 PM »
See, I don't know if that's true. While Octavarium might be the single most beloved song on its album, I imagine there'd be a much bigger ratio of people who'd say, "Octavarium over all those other awesome songs? No way."
As much as I love it, honestly, the first three songs on Octavarium alone are enough to sway me to prefer the first half of the album.

I think you are in the minority my friend.  Time for Chaossystem to start a new poll!!

Well, speaking of that, according to the Octavarium polls there are 31 people who voted for something other than Octavarium, versus 90 that voted for the title track, that's just over 25% of people who prefer a single song on the album over Octavarium, which might seem like a pretty big difference, but that does prove that there are songs on the album that other people consider to be great. So I do wonder how many of those 90 people would take Octavarium over ALL the other songs on the album combined. I mean, maybe, maybe not, but I don't think it would be all that farfetched to say that quite a few people wouldn't choose Octavarium over all 7 of the other songs, or any combination of them.

I would say 75% is majority. If it was a presidential election, it would be a landslide.
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Offline CharlesPL

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #116 on: December 14, 2014, 05:54:56 PM »
SDOIT song
ITNoG
Octavarium song
ITPOE part 1 only
Count
IT

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #117 on: December 14, 2014, 05:55:54 PM »
The problem with what's your favorite polls though is that it gives the impression that the rest of the album is weak when it could really just be the case of one song being the favorite of many. Octavarium may not be the best case, but I believe that examples of what I  am saying are in the other albums like DT 12, Awake, ToT and SDOIT.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #118 on: December 14, 2014, 06:14:15 PM »
Had Scenes From A Memory been originally released on vinyl, it would have been a double album with Act 1 as the whole first vinyl and Act 2 on the second. But it's not considered a double album because it just happened to fit. If CDs could hold 100 minutes, then Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence would have definitely been a single CD album, and there'd be none of this "Disc 1 vs Disc 2" business that fans get their panties in a twist for. Put the album on an iPod and what happens? It's one album. No discs, no vinyl sides, nothing but six songs on one album, just as it should be, especially intended by the band.

This is a different conversation entirely, but the whole Disc 1 vs. Disc 2 thing is probably not just because of the physical medium. I mean, the songs on the first CD and the songs on the second CD were written in completely different sessions. They took a break after the first 5 songs, and then got together and banged out the second CD after, so I think the division stems more from the approach of the writing sessions, not just from the fact that they have two separate CDs.
They didn't come together to bang out a second disc of material.  They wanted to do another epic song, but they were thinking in the 20-minute range.  It just wound up being 42 minutes, which necessitated a 2-disc album, or cutting two of the first 5 to get it all on one disc.  It was never the intention going in to make a double album.
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Offline Randaran

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #119 on: December 14, 2014, 06:16:40 PM »
Interesting points all around. Anyone want to start a series of "Epic Vs Non-Epics" Polls?
SDOIT - "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" VS The First 5 Tracks

No; the second disc, while good, is nowhere near as great as the first

Quote
TOT - "In The Name Of God" VS The First 6 Tracks

Hell no; ITNOG is easily the weakest track on the album

Quote
8VM - "Octavarium" VS The First 7 Tracks

Octavarium is by far the best song on the album, so yes.

Quote
SC - "In The Presence Of Enemies" VS The Other 6 Tracks
BC&SL - "The Count Of Tuscany" VS The First 5 Tracks
DT12 - "Illumination Theory" VS The First 8 Tracks

No for all of these. Each of these albums has at least one song that I prefer to the epic (TDEN, TSF, and most of DT12 respectively). The only case in which I would rather have the epic over the rest of the album is Octavarium.
Only a prog fan would try to measure how much they enjoy a song by an equation. :lol
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #120 on: December 14, 2014, 06:17:03 PM »
I would say 75% is majority. If it was a presidential election, it would be a landslide.

Yeah, but that majority is only comparing Octavarium to any one song on that album, not multiple songs. I mean the same thing is happening with DT12, most people are choosing Illumination Theory, including myself. But if I had to make a choice between IT and all the other songs on the album combined, I'd choose the rest of the album.

It's like if people were given a choice between one president, and several other candidates, combining their forces and ruling equally for the greater good. Suddenly those 75% might prefer the combined forces of those people, over the one guy they initially preferred.
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Offline fischermasamune

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #121 on: December 14, 2014, 06:28:15 PM »
With the exemption that more music is generally better, but putting together many politicians only makes it worse.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #122 on: December 14, 2014, 06:31:34 PM »
With the exemption that more music is generally better, but putting together many politicians only makes it worse.

Well, yes, but the politician metaphor wasn't my idea anyway.  :lol
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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #123 on: December 14, 2014, 06:34:22 PM »
You are over-analyzing this. No ever looks at an album and says, "I like the rest of the album over the best song on the album."  Most just say that a certain song is their favorite. No one says what you said.
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Offline chaossystem

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #124 on: December 14, 2014, 06:38:03 PM »
I think a lot of people just love the OCTAVARIUM track as a whole.

If it was just a case of "more is better" then they could fill an album with twelve or more shorter songs and everyone would be just as happy.

But since there are so many people who like the epics, or at least songs that are over eleven or twelve minutes long, I don't think that they COULD do that.

And yes, I'm aware of the fact that they probably wouldn't WANT to.
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Offline Kingly Gizz & Liz Wiz Bizzy

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #125 on: December 14, 2014, 06:44:17 PM »
Sometimes a song is that stunning like Octavarium. Not all epics are loved but for the most part, it is close to a masterpiece for DT.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #126 on: December 14, 2014, 07:06:36 PM »
What exactly does being Saved by the Epic mean anyway? It's almost like a derogatory term, like the album is really meh, and only the epic is worth listening to, the only SAVING grace of the album. If that is the case, I would argue that DT really does not have any albums of that kind. Octavarium is the closest, but as I said before, that album is constructed around the epic, so if the epic did not turn out to be the overwhelming highlight of the album, then DT would have failed because they did not meet their intended goal.

I think epics are actually meant to be the highlight of albums. Whenever an epic does not turn out to be the highlight, I actually feel very dissatisfied. That's one of my main gripes with Haken. They generally have very good albums, but Celestial Elixir, Visions and most especially Pareidolia were all letdowns for me in terms of becoming satisfying conclusions. DT is very good at that, knowing how to create a climactic piece to end their albums. I think instead of describing DT albums as being saved by the epic, I view DT albums more as having a satisfying climax.

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #127 on: December 14, 2014, 07:13:37 PM »
Interesting points all around. Anyone want to start a series of "Epic Vs Non-Epics" Polls?
SDOIT - "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" VS The First 5 Tracks

No; the second disc, while good, is nowhere near as great as the first

Quote
TOT - "In The Name Of God" VS The First 6 Tracks

Hell no; ITNOG is easily the weakest track on the album

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Offline chaossystem

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #128 on: December 14, 2014, 07:19:25 PM »
If by "wrongness" you mean anyone saying that ItNoG is the WEAKEST song on ToT, I couldn't agree more!

Especially compared to "Endless Sacrifice" and "Vacant!!!"
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #129 on: December 14, 2014, 07:19:49 PM »
You are over-analyzing this. No ever looks at an album and says, "I like the rest of the album over the best song on the album."  Most just say that a certain song is their favorite. No one says what you said.

We're on DTF, and you blame me for over-analyzing something?  :lol

You do realize that most people outside of this forum don't rank their favorite songs or albums either, right?
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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #130 on: December 14, 2014, 07:21:57 PM »
You are over-analyzing this. No ever looks at an album and says, "I like the rest of the album over the best song on the album."  Most just say that a certain song is their favorite. No one says what you said.

We're on DTF, and you blame me for over-analyzing something?  :lol

You do realize that most people outside of this forum don't rank their favorite songs or albums either, right?

Most people just listen to their music and enjoy it. Crazy, right? :neverusethis:
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Offline chaossystem

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #131 on: December 14, 2014, 07:29:21 PM »
Have you seen some of the other threads on here?

I swear there's one that is at least partially dedicated  to what the background vocals sound like when you remove the instrumentation!

So I, for one am NOT surprised by ANYTHING on here that gets "over-analyzed!"

Are you?
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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #132 on: December 14, 2014, 07:30:32 PM »
You are over-analyzing this. No ever looks at an album and says, "I like the rest of the album over the best song on the album."  Most just say that a certain song is their favorite. No one says what you said.

We're on DTF, and you blame me for over-analyzing something?  :lol

You do realize that most people outside of this forum don't rank their favorite songs or albums either, right?

Um, music lovers always rank all music. :lol

My cousin and I did it before Al Gore created the internet.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #133 on: December 14, 2014, 07:31:31 PM »
I swear there's one that is at least partially dedicated  to what the background vocals sound like when you remove the instrumentation!

Speaking of which, I need to upload the next set.
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Offline chaossystem

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #134 on: December 14, 2014, 07:37:38 PM »
You are over-analyzing this. No ever looks at an album and says, "I like the rest of the album over the best song on the album."  Most just say that a certain song is their favorite. No one says what you said.

We're on DTF, and you blame me for over-analyzing something?  :lol

You do realize that most people outside of this forum don't rank their favorite songs or albums either, right?

Um, music lovers always rank all music. :lol

My cousin and I did it before Al Gore created the internet.

Good thing we had "Algore" to pave the way for us!
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Offline Randaran

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #135 on: December 14, 2014, 07:39:47 PM »
If by "wrongness" you mean anyone saying that ItNoG is the WEAKEST song on ToT, I couldn't agree more!

Especially compared to "Endless Sacrifice" and "Vacant!!!"

Endless Sacrifice is the best song on ToT. ITNoG would not even breach my top 50.
Only a prog fan would try to measure how much they enjoy a song by an equation. :lol
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Offline chaossystem

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #136 on: December 14, 2014, 07:49:25 PM »
Well, everyone has a right to rate the songs any way they CHOOSE.

And that includes rating them with LOVE and/or HATE!
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #137 on: December 14, 2014, 07:50:58 PM »
If by "wrongness" you mean anyone saying that ItNoG is the WEAKEST song on ToT, I couldn't agree more!

Especially compared to "Endless Sacrifice" and "Vacant!!!"

Endless Sacrifice is the best song on ToT. ITNoG would not even breach my top 50.

I like this post.
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Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #138 on: December 15, 2014, 01:29:43 AM »
I don't think I'd pick the 'epic' over "the rest of an album" in any of the examples. To me, it's like saying the epic is the only good part of the album if you honestly rank it higher than the rest of an album combined, which is a valid perspective, but not one I agree with (Six Degrees is almost the exception to this, because it practically makes up as much content as it's other half). The general quality of DT songs is high enough that I'd rather take quantity in this case even if I lost out on the epics.

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    • KovaKreative
Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
« Reply #139 on: December 15, 2014, 07:12:29 AM »
I don't think I'd pick the 'epic' over "the rest of an album" in any of the examples. To me, it's like saying the epic is the only good part of the album if you honestly rank it higher than the rest of an album combined, which is a valid perspective, but not one I agree with (Six Degrees is almost the exception to this, because it practically makes up as much content as it's other half). The general quality of DT songs is high enough that I'd rather take quantity in this case even if I lost out on the epics.

I agree with this entirely. Hence why I don't think any album of theirs needed "saving by the epic". Usually the quality of the epic on any given album reflects the quality of the rest of that album pretty well.
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