The Last in the Series>Dream theater #12-

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Either way, to me, the parts and how good they are is far more important than how well they transition from one to the other. I mean, I can listen to IT as two separate pieces of music, and enjoy them immensely. It just so happens that they're stuck together, so when I do enjoy them, I enjoy them consecutively. But heck, that's also what I do with The Mirror and Lie, and O1928+Strange Deja-Vu, and a few others. It's the moments that are important to me, and there isn't a bad one in IT.

Agreed 100%. I understand why people think IT isn't cohesive because even to my ears it really isn't, but I'm hard-pressed to find many more flaws with this song beyond that.

[Rodni Demental]

I'm in the camp that say it's about as 'incohesive' as any other examples like Metropolis, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees. I would argue that all of these are as disjointed as each other, and the way they 'flow' for the listener, depends on their tastes, experience, and conception of the song. Metropolis is generally said to flow quite well considering it could appear like a progged up mess of a song to any first time listener. I think for a lot of us, the song had to grow on us with familiarity before we could appreciate some of the transitions that were otherwise jarring. I guess what I'm saying is, the more I listen to Illumination Theory, the more cohesive it feels. If you know how it's going to transition and you're not filtering that experience through a negative preconception about the transition, it'll start to flow better from familiarity because you know that's how it goes. Unless you can never get your head around it, and then it comes down to taste so at that point, it doesn't matter if it's not appropriate for your pallet. Prog can always be jarring, irregular time signatures ARE jarring and always have the potential to be incohesive if you're expecting a rhythm in standard time.

[adamack]

I'm in the camp that say it's about as 'incohesive' as any other examples like Metropolis, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees. I would argue that all of these are as disjointed as each other, and the way they 'flow' for the listener, depends on their tastes, experience, and conception of the song. Metropolis is generally said to flow quite well considering it could appear like a progged up mess of a song to any first time listener. I think for a lot of us, the song had to grow on us with familiarity before we could appreciate some of the transitions that were otherwise jarring. I guess what I'm saying is, the more I listen to Illumination Theory, the more cohesive it feels. If you know how it's going to transition and you're not filtering that experience through a negative preconception about the transition, it'll start to flow better from familiarity because you know that's how it goes. Unless you can never get your head around it, and then it comes down to taste so at that point, it doesn't matter if it's not appropriate for your pallet. Prog can always be jarring, irregular time signatures ARE jarring and always have the potential to be incohesive if you're expecting a rhythm in standard time.

This is a great post. Despite my earlier post suggesting that Illumination Theory IS disjointed, I can appreciate this post nonetheless.

If you remove the orchestral part from IT, the rest of the song is honestly jointed pretty well. The entire song, other than the orchestra, has a pretty fast-paced and energetic feel, and all of those sections feel part of the same song.

The problem though, and the reason that I suggested it is disjointed, is solely the orchestral section. I feel like it would be better if the orchestral break introduced more of a change in the second half of the song. Instead, the second half of the song resumes with a very similar feel as the first half of the song. This makes it feel as if the orchestra is just plopped in out of nowhere, does its thing, and is forgotten about as we get more of the same stuff we heard at the beginning. I just wish it had more influence over the flow of where the song ends up going.

Supporting your post, you're right...Illumination Theory isn't anywhere NEAR the most disjointed sounding DT song. Let's look at your example of SDOIT. It's like 6 totally different songs in one song. A super mellow ballad part, 2 hard metal parts, a contemporary pop part, and so on. As you eluded to, it is far more disjointed than a song like IT.

I absolutely love songs such as SDOIT and A Change Of Seasons which, to me, are even MORE disjointed than IT.

What I'm trying to say is:  I guess my problem with IT isn't simply that it is disjointed, but rather the manner in which the orchestral section is arranged within the rest of the song.

[jonnybaxy]

The Enemy Inside gets my vote, I really didn't enjoy the album but this would be my favourite if I had to choose, To me the orchestral section takes out all the momentum of IT and goes on for a tad too long.

[hefdaddy42]

You know, if I actually felt like it was too disjointed, what I would do is take the track, chop it up into what I would consider cohesive pieces, and listen to them as separate songs.

Are you serious?

I would never, ever do something like that.  Wouldn't even pop into my head.

[TheGreatPretender]

Are you serious?

I would never, ever do something like that.  Wouldn't even pop into my head.

Yeah, absolutely. If it feels smooth andlogical and not like it just cut from the middle of another piece of music (like the beginning of War Inside My Head for example).

But there really isn't any DT song that I actually found to be so disjointed that I felt the need to separate it into separate tracks, so I've never actually done that.

But there have been plenty of times when I'd omit certain parts that I didn't like, like editing out the samples in Space-Dye Vest, and turning it into an extremely condensed version where the vocals basically go back to back to back.
Same with omitting the sample section of Honor Thy Father.
The edits aren't perfect, and there are some very small tail ends of the samples that end up left where the "seams" would be, but if I'm not looking for them, I don't even hear them. It makes the songs more enjoyable for me, so I chop them up. I don't see the big deal.

(Although I did just spend some money on acquiring all of the stems to Space-Dye Vest, so I remixed them, and now I have the complete version without the annoying samples, so I don't have to listen to the condensed version anymore.)

[BlackInk]

This poll is a bit harder than the others. Mainly because there are no truly good songs on this album. They are all just so mind-numbingly 'meh'. Went with 'The Bigger Picture' though, because the chorus is sort of nice I guess.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Are you serious?

I would never, ever do something like that.  Wouldn't even pop into my head.

Yeah, absolutely. If it feels smooth andlogical and not like it just cut from the middle of another piece of music (like the beginning of War Inside My Head for example).

But there really isn't any DT song that I actually found to be so disjointed that I felt the need to separate it into separate tracks, so I've never actually done that.

But there have been plenty of times when I'd omit certain parts that I didn't like, like editing out the samples in Space-Dye Vest, and turning it into an extremely condensed version where the vocals basically go back to back to back.
Same with omitting the sample section of Honor Thy Father.
The edits aren't perfect, and there are some very small tail ends of the samples that end up left where the "seams" would be, but if I'm not looking for them, I don't even hear them. It makes the songs more enjoyable for me, so I chop them up. I don't see the big deal.

(Although I did just spend some money on acquiring all of the stems to Space-Dye Vest, so I remixed them, and now I have the complete version without the annoying samples, so I don't have to listen to the condensed version anymore.)

....what the FUCK?!?!

[TheGreatPretender]

Problem? 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

The idea is just too bizarre for me to comprehend. It's like editing the piano out of SDV, it just makes no sense.

[BlackInk]

I can see how someone would want the sample voices gone. I wouldn't do it myself, since I think they are a big part of the song's personality. But I understand if someone would prefer it without.

[TheGreatPretender]

The idea is just too bizarre for me to comprehend. It's like editing the piano out of SDV, it just makes no sense.

Except the piano is the main part, and actually sounds good. The samples only distracted me from that wonderful piano, and really brought the song down for me.
I mean, don't get me wrong, if there was a song where I felt like one of the instruments, (or, say, MP's backup vocals for example) hindered the song, I'd edit them out too, if possible. Sadly the BC&SL stems melded the lead vocals and backup vocals onto a single track, so I can't separate them and get rid of MP's parts in AROP or TCOT.

[hefdaddy42]

This concept is just so appalling to me.

[TheGreatPretender]

This concept is just so appalling to me.

Well, I'm not forcing you to listen to it. With the samples, SDV wouldn't even break my top 50. If they had released it without the samples, it would be in my top 25. It's still not, since when considering what my top DT songs are, I consider them as they were released, as the artist intended. But for my own enjoyment, I think it was worth the money to remix it without the samples.
There's also a very nice, quiet little organ tone where the latter half of the samples is, which I turned up a little to make it more audible under the piano. Much more enjoyable!

I also remixed Home the same way, without the sex and casino noises. Not that I mind those AS much. I usually just listen to SFAM in its entirety, and I do prefer to experience it as a narrative. But now, if I want to listen to Home just on its own, it'll be much more enjoyable for me to hear the music without the samples.
There's also very subtle piano and synth stuff under the chorus that I couldn't really hear that well at all in the original, so I turned that up as well.

But anyway, the point is, if I felt like IT was so incohesive, it would be extremely easy for me to divide it into two separate parts and just treat them like separate songs. Heck, I might do that anyway, just in case I ever feel like enjoying the latter half of it on its own, although I do find the entire thing, from the beginning to end extremely enjoyable.

[hefdaddy42]

*aghast*

[TheGreatPretender]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Surely this isn't the first time you've ever heard of someone doing this.

[hefdaddy42]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Surely this isn't the first time you've ever heard of someone doing this.

I'm not being sarcastic.  But I also don't want a debate about it. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Anyway, my point is that I'd much prefer a whole bunch of disjointed musical moments put together into one piece, than have a piece of music that's more cohesive, but one which constantly has subpar and uninteresting moments thrown at you throughout, like TBOT or TCOT, for example. And if the disjointedness of something really bothered me that much, I'd just fragment it into separate tracks and not let it ruin the fact that these musical moments are amazing.

[Dave_Manchester]

It's an extremely strong and consistent album but my vote goes to Illumination Theory. And my thoughts on the above comments about its 'disjointedness' - disjointed means a lack of structural coherence, it doesn't simply mean jarring contrasts. If it did then pretty much every piano sonata of Beethoven or symphony of Mahler could be called 'disjointed', since they too often go from blaring aggression to barely audible 'pianissimo' in the space of 2 bars.

Whether or not you feel the music lacks structural logic is entirely up to you and largely subjective but I do feel one or two in this thread about being a bit too confident in labelling it this way. I catch a very strong 'classical' feel from this song - its similarity to the opening of Tchaikovsky's 1st Piano Concerto was noted on release - and almost all Classical and Romantic compositions have a rough fast-slow-fast structure; allegro-adagio-presto (as, in fact, does Tchaikovsky's Concerto).   

Also - although musically the switch from fast to soft in IT may be a bit abrupt, to me it's a nice reflection of the theme of the song's lyrics, a kind of burst of life in the beginning, then a period of calm reflection, leading to their (rather JP's) conception of joy and revelation. It's my favourite song in the DT canon, but for me the slow section in the Count of Tuscany is a much more accurate example of a musically and lyrically puzzling change of gear.

I dunno, for me the song works brilliantly. I respect it doesn't for others, but I wanted to present an argument FOR the unusual structure of the music.

[erwinrafael]

agree with you wholeheartedly, Dave.

[BlackInk]

Disjointed? A bit, that middle section is a bit of a drag. But that's really isn't my problem with IT, or DT12 in general.

My personal problems with this album is that
 - the drums sound awful and completely lack any personal and human tuch, like a machine
 - the guitar sounds pretty bad, aiming for the 'cake' sound went terribly wrong
 - some of JLB's parts sounds bad as it sounds like he is so far outside his comfort zone it's a bit embarrassing
 - the guitar riffs sound uninspired
 - many Rudess' parts lack so much creative imagination
 - and the same goes for the vocal melodies themselves
 - waaaaaay too much JP soloing, I think someone should remind him that this isn't his solo project
 - the lyrics are even more embarrassing, seriously, their lyrics haven't ever, with maybe the exception of BC&SL, been this bad

[ThatOneGuy2112]

- the drums sound awful and completely lack any personal and human tuch, like a machine

I'd probably be willing to bend on that one. Mangini is a technical beast, without a doubt. But I'd still say there are a fair amount of moments that let him shine without him resorting to the typical technicality, like on much of IT. My hope for their next album is that he's become more comfortable with his position by that point and is ready to let loose a little bit.

- the guitar sounds pretty bad, aiming for the 'cake' sound went terribly wrong

Not sure what you're talking about here. I actually really dig JP's guitar tone on this album. Maybe I don't understand his whole "cake" metaphor, but it's definitely layered and pretty damn tasty.

- some of JLB's parts sounds bad as it sounds like he is so far outside his comfort zone it's a bit embarrassing

Care to give any examples of this? The only one that really comes to mind are his subdued "growl-ish" voice in BTV.

- the guitar riffs sound uninspired

Virtually ever riff in IT would like to have a word with you. Also, a fair bit of TEI and BTV.

- many Rudess' parts lack so much creative imagination

Looking back, this isn't an album where JR really shines. He has his moments, but those are spread pretty few and far between.

- and the same goes for the vocal melodies themselves

Disagreed. TBP is such a killer of a song for it's vocal melodies, especially in its chorus. In fact, a lot of the choruses on this entire thing are pretty top-notch, at least as far as vocal melodies go.

- waaaaaay too much JP soloing, I think someone should remind him that this isn't his solo project

Don't really seem to notice much more JP soloing than there has been in any other DT album. Besides, I think a lot of his solos on here are some of the best he's brought to the DT catalog yet.

- the lyrics are even more embarrassing, seriously, their lyrics haven't ever, with maybe the exception of BC&SL, been this bad

Different tastes I suppose. None of the lyrics on this album ever really screeched at me like they have on SC or BC&SL.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

It's an extremely strong and consistent album but my vote goes to Illumination Theory. And my thoughts on the above comments about its 'disjointedness' - disjointed means a lack of structural coherence, it doesn't simply mean jarring contrasts. If it did then pretty much every piano sonata of Beethoven or symphony of Mahler could be called 'disjointed', since they too often go from blaring aggression to barely audible 'pianissimo' in the space of 2 bars.

Whether or not you feel the music lacks structural logic is entirely up to you and largely subjective but I do feel one or two in this thread about being a bit too confident in labelling it this way. I catch a very strong 'classical' feel from this song - its similarity to the opening of Tchaikovsky's 1st Piano Concerto was noted on release - and almost all Classical and Romantic compositions have a rough fast-slow-fast structure; allegro-adagio-presto (as, in fact, does Tchaikovsky's Concerto).   

Also - although musically the switch from fast to soft in IT may be a bit abrupt, to me it's a nice reflection of the theme of the song's lyrics, a kind of burst of life in the beginning, then a period of calm reflection, leading to their (rather JP's) conception of joy and revelation. It's my favourite song in the DT canon, but for me the slow section in the Count of Tuscany is a much more accurate example of a musically and lyrically puzzling change of gear.

I dunno, for me the song works brilliantly. I respect it doesn't for others, but I wanted to present an argument FOR the unusual structure of the music.

While I agree that jarring constrasts do not imply a lack of structural coherence by themselves, I'd assert that in DT's music the contrasts tend to be much more jarring than anything seen in classical music. Listen to Illumination Theory around the 6:00 mark for example. We go from a slow dramatic minor section with sweeping strings to an upbeat weedly-woodly major section with synthesizers and Rush guitars. I cannot think of a single classical piece (in the common practice period) in which in a split second the mood changes like this. Sure, we see plenty of sudden dynamic constrasts, but there is almost always a strong thematic overlap and the main transitions in structure are very well thought out and generally not sudden. Take Beethoven's late piano sonatas, where he often uses small transitional themes and fragments from earlier in the piece to make transitions and Mahler where snippets of themes from different movements reoccur throughout the symphony. DT is far less subtle. To compare Beethoven and Mahler's transitions to DT's is a bit of a disservice to the deceased gents I'd say.

I don't think your allegro-adagio-presto analogy is completely apt. In classical music, the allegro, adagio and presto are standalone pieces of music with a very clear internal structure. Also, themes from one section often reoccur other sections. In DTs music, IT for example, there is no clear structure, just a succession of themes. There is also very little shared thematic material between the sections. I think there is a reason why the classical composers stuck to using the classical forms like the sonata and the symphony for so long: it is very difficult to get a long piece to be structurally and thematically coherent, and I feel it's one of the main underrated skills of the late romantic and Viennese school composers. One of my main gripes with DT is that in many cases they simply seem to slap whole sections of music together without much thought. Alas, I think it is simply an artifact of their jam-oriented way of composing. It's cool that it works for you, but I don't think there's a strong case to be made for DT's music to be as structurally coherent as classical music.

[BlackInk]

@ThatOneGuy, Too many different points to adress and I do not really have the energy to mess around with the (quote)-code-things. But I will try to adress the major points.

The thing about JLB not quite delivering on the vocals is referring to the second half of IT. The high pitched stuff he does there just feels so forced and unnatural. It doesn't at all sound as comfortable as when he did those things on the early albums. Which is of course obvious, since he is not a young man anymore, which is fine. I just wish they'd further work the vocals to fit his current and somewhat narrower vocal abilities.

And yes, there are some cool riffs in IT, but "a fair bit of TEI" I don't get at all. Most riffs in that song are some of the most boring stuff JP has produced.

And what you say about the TBP vocal melodies are true, those are the strongest of album, which is why TBP is also my favorite track on DT12. But even that song has some weak stuff as far as the vocal melodies are concerned

[James Mypetgiress]

This thing is rigged. I voted Enigma Machine, but it shows my vote as Enemy Inside

[hefdaddy42]

This thing is rigged. I voted Enigma Machine, but it shows my vote as Enemy Inside

It is not possible to rig polls on this website.

[The Letter M]

This thing is rigged. I voted Enigma Machine, but it shows my vote as Enemy Inside

Did you remember to READ CAREFULLY? 

"Enigma Machine" is the fourth track on the album, but on this poll, it's the fifth one listed. If you just voted for the fourth option, then you voted for "The Enemy Inside", because these tracks are listed alphabetically (which is only EVER done here in chaossystem's polls), and not in track-order of the actual, officially released album that is available to everyone around the world.

-Marc.

[TheGreatPretender]

This thing is rigged. I voted Enigma Machine, but it shows my vote as Enemy Inside

Did you remember to READ CAREFULLY? 

Why would he? The subject of the thread doesn't explicitly specify that we need to read carefully, so I would never even think of reading carefully if I wasn't specifically told to do so.

[adamack]

- the lyrics are even more embarrassing, seriously, their lyrics haven't ever, with maybe the exception of BC&SL, been this bad

I somewhat agree with this.

The 2 songs which come to mind are TLG and IT.

Example: I may be the only one who feels this way, but I find this lyric incredibly cliche/cheesy:

"To really feel the joy in life, you must suffer through the pain."

Now, the concept behind this lyric is very true and I respect that. But the way its worded is SO bland and expected. Little things like that are what have turned me off to IT. I don't hate IT by any means, but it is pretty mediocre to me.

Overall, I have to agree with your sentiment about their lyrics not being this bad since BC&SL. I must add, though, that the lyrics on BC&SL were MUCH worse in my opinion. DT12 has some cringe-worthy lyrics from time to time, but songs like TBoT and TCoT had cringe-worthy lyrics almost throughout their entirety.

Also, I don't think DT12's lyrics are near as bad as they were on SC. The whole monster thing just came off as being really corny.

I agree though overall. IMO, DT12 is the 3rd worst DT album in terms of lyrical content, behind BC&SL and SC.

[BlackInk]

I like SC's lyrics, except for The Dark Eternal Night of course. But I totally agree with BC&SL. TBoT and TCoT are just so disappointing to listen to.

[TheGreatPretender]

The only thing wrong with the lyrics on DTEN is that some of them are awkwardly phrased, such as, "The ultimate god of a rotting creation" line, but other than that, they're cool. The chorus is awesome. And parts of the verses (or the Pre-choruses if that's what they are) are awesome, the parts that follow the, "Through the stifling heat, underneath the pale green moon," pattern.

[BlobVanDam]

I love the lyrics of TDEN, because they fit that particular song perfectly, and they don't take themselves seriously. It's just a fun song. I wouldn't want those lyrics to a song like Blind Faith, just as the lyrics to a song like Blind Faith wouldn't fit that song. I also like the way the musical phrasing fits the lyrics in the pre-chorus.

[BlackInk]

The Dark Eternal Night is a fun song, absolutely. I still listen to it sometimes because of just that reason, which is more than I can say about TBoT or TCoT. But I'm still not a fan of those lyrics. Even though they might fit that particular song, I prefer more serious lyrical content in the music I listen to, at least from DT.

[hefdaddy42]

I'm not a large fan of SC, but I will say that the lyrics almost perfectly fit the music, maybe more so than on any album since Awake.

[SuperTaco]

IT is too big and too great of a song not to pick. It's almost akin to the Octavarium poll (Except the rest of the songs are better than the rest of 8VM's, in my opinion).

The Enemy Inside has aged the best though.

EDIT: Judging from the current amount of votes for Enigma Machine (0), I guess it just doesn't measure up to the rest of the album xD