Author Topic: Ferguson  (Read 26986 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #140 on: November 26, 2014, 11:20:02 AM »
I don't think anyone said they were running from the robbery.  The point is that they were running from the cruiser after the confrontation with Wilson (or, at least, Brown was; I honestly have no idea about where his accomplice was).
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 12:54:15 PM by bosk1 »
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #141 on: November 26, 2014, 12:05:19 PM »
Stadler, I'm really not going to respond to someone who is so hostile and who pigeonholes me into things I've never said, whilst claiming I'm the one assuming something never assumed. Have fun arguing with straw men.

If you see hostility, you are taking this FAR more personally than it is intended, but that isn't a new thing.  There certainly isn't any "hostility" intended; as for the rest, I stand by what I wrote.   You don't like the answer, so you're changing your focus to the question.  I am merely going off your very words; if I've misinterpreted them, please feel free to clarify. 

As to your premise that there should be charges filed because then the truth will out, that is a flawed premise, and doesn't comport with the purpose of the grand jury process.   The courts are NOT intended as the vehicle in which we find truth; that is the STATED purpose of the grand jury.  The grand jury is intended to do exactly what you seem to want a court to do, and the grand jury made their determination.  That one person (you, me or any person for that matter) doesn't agree with that determination is not at all relevant.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #142 on: November 26, 2014, 08:40:38 PM »
A couple of points to remember here that seem to be overlooked:
1) The robbery of the Swisher Sweets or whatever the hell he stole from the market, was indeed a petty crime. But we know that after the fact. When a call comes into the police in the field they don't describe it as a petty crime. And they usually don't say, "The suspect stole some cigars, and maybe a quart of milk, and possibly some rubbers, but we don't know." It's typically called into by code. In this case it was probably the code for "Aggravated Robbery", which is the taking of goods from another by use of force. That's all the officer has to go by. Cops have to make sometimes split second decisions or people will die.

According to the report, Wilson knew that Swishers were stolen, as he saw them in Browns hand when he drove by, and this helped key him off to Brown being the suspect/thief.

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For all he knew Michael Brown could have been whacked out on PCP, or  maybe he was schizophrenic. Especially when he rolled up on two guys tooling down the middle of the street during the middle of the day. He doesn't have time to figure out his mental health status. He tells them to get out of the middle of the street. They refuse to comply. They also cuss at the cop. In this situation he is trained to control the situation. Any NORMAL person would simply comply, which is reasonable, and the law.

If that was true, then he should approach the situation appropriately and with a little more cautiousness. Not aggressively because, hey, he has a gun so he can just defend himself. And any person would probably be a little peeved if they were just cussed at. Why can't we imagine that peevishness had some influence on what happened?

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It's about this time he realizes they fit the description of the suspects in the robbery, and notices Brown carrying cigars. He cuts them off, and as he's getting out of the car, Brown slams his head in the door, and reaches in for Wilson's gun. They struggle. Brown fires shots into his own cruiser. At this point in time if Brown is willing to attack an officer, and try to take his weapon, (so #2) he is a THREAT and is dangerous to other people. They take off and Wilson gets out. Brown comes back towards him, and Wilson fires as he is trained to do.
Tragic- yes. Racially motivated-No. Police brutality-No.

What physical evidence is there that Brown went for the gun? Prove this happened.

Fighting against a cop who is probably going to arrest you and ruin your life (more than it might already be) is a far-cry from being a threat to other people. The strong-armed robbery he committed was pretty tame... he used his size to intimidate more than actual cause any harm. Let's not pretend as if Brown was a loose-gun going around attacking people or actually hurt anyone.

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The scenario that Wilson was pissed and wanted to basically show him who was in charge is pure fantasy and speculation and not based on any witnesses or evidence. There is NOTHING to state that Wilson just wanted to shoot somebody. Brown escalated the situation. And it started when he assaulted the owner and robbed the market; but really escalated when confronted by Wilson.

Never said he just wanted to shoot somebody. I just pointed out human nature to be peeved when you're cussed at, and the general attitude of police officers. I think it's interesting that you're willing to call this speculation, but take at full face value other speculation at to what happened. It's a pretty balanced speculation as to what happened, which places blame on both parties. That to me is far, far more realistic than taking Wilsons word at full face value, and taking the police version as the official, unquestionable truth.


 
Yes, I know that Wilson knew Brown was a suspect, of a petty crime. Does that warrant such quick and authoritative response? I don't think it does. He had time to wait for back up. Brown was not a threat to other people.
You keep mentioning backup.  Where is the need for backup at this point in the encounter?  He was a suspect, as you said, of a petty crime.  No reason that a cop should require backup to deal with an unarmed suspect of a petty crime.  Wilson went to deal with the situation as he should have.

Think this is a fairly good point, but it still doesn't mean he backs up and blocks traffic. What purpose do that serve? What is the urgency?

I also think it's weird that somehow Brown attacking Wilson suddenly means he's a threat to other people.
I think it's weird that you somehow DON'T think that an already wanted suspect who is willing to assault an armed law-enforcement officer wouldn't be considered a threat to other people.

The fact of the matter is that Michael Brown is dead because of the decisions made by Michael Brown.
[/quote]

I don't know how you can possibly think this is fully true. Did Michael Brown play a role in his own death? Could Michael Brown ahd acted ifferently and avoided dying? Yes. But it's also erroneous to say that Wilson didn't play a major role in the way events took place. Wilson made a lot of decisions - some of them due to his training, some of them maybe just due to himself - which could have averted a young man from dying. And that's all my point is, is that we don't even question that the police can do things in another way which minimize shit like this from happening.


Offline Scheavo

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #143 on: November 26, 2014, 08:44:26 PM »
As to your premise that there should be charges filed because then the truth will out, that is a flawed premise, and doesn't comport with the purpose of the grand jury process.   The courts are NOT intended as the vehicle in which we find truth; that is the STATED purpose of the grand jury.  The grand jury is intended to do exactly what you seem to want a court to do, and the grand jury made their determination.  That one person (you, me or any person for that matter) doesn't agree with that determination is not at all relevant.

 :lol I love how you continue to just make shit up and pretend as if I said it.

A Grand Jury is there to decide if probable cause exists for there to be charged filed. The prosecution has the duty to make the argument that charges should be filed. From the very beginning of his presentation, and from the ways in which the evidence was presented, it was clear to me and many other lawyers I've heard speak about the issue, that the prosecution essentially defended Wilson. The Grand Jury was treated like an actual jury trial. That's the problem.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #144 on: November 26, 2014, 08:51:57 PM »
Scheavo...

Re: Brown going for the gun...

There was physical evidence in the form of powder marks on Brown's hand which forensic's determined WAS consistent with the story that he went for the officer's gun.

(at least...that was what I heard on the news)
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #145 on: November 26, 2014, 08:54:24 PM »
Exactly.

Like the old saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. 

The facts of this incident, which is a tragedy no matter how you slice it, are quite clear at this point. 

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #146 on: November 27, 2014, 08:50:38 AM »
Scheavo...

Re: Brown going for the gun...

There was physical evidence in the form of powder marks on Brown's hand which forensic's determined WAS consistent with the story that he went for the officer's gun.

(at least...that was what I heard on the news)

Isn't that just consistent with his hand being near the gun? According to Wilson's story, brown had the gun pointed at him and was trying to shoot it. Are there fingerprints?

Offline TempusVox

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #147 on: November 27, 2014, 10:19:48 AM »
Sheavo...do you honestly believe that Brown had no involvement in the events that led to his death? Do you think that grabbing a shopkeeper by the throat and shoving him during the course of a robbery, petty or otherwise is okay? Do you honestly think it's okay to disobey a police officers directive to get out of the middle of the street, and then also curse at him? Is it acceptable behavior to slam a cops head in the door of his cruiser, then punch him and try to grab his gun, when all he was doing was getting out of his cruiser? If you answered yes to any of those questions then may God be with you, and I hope you never get into a situation with the police.
All of these things were testimony and physical evidence that the grand jury saw and decided upon. It's easy to suggest other things Wilson could have done. Armchair quarterback is the easist position on the field. But he did what police are trained to do. In this instance Brown probably would have strolled on back to somebodys "crib", and "chilled", and talked shit about the "Asian m'fucker" he "jacked up", and had a good laugh and smoked a blunt. And he wouldn't have been a threat to anybody until the next time he needed some "squares", or to roll another blunt with some "blackies". But the cop doesn't know this.
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #148 on: November 27, 2014, 11:43:47 AM »
Tempus, you should cut it out with putting words in Scheavo's mouth, because he's said time and time again that Brown doesn't get an excuse for the stuff he did, nor was that some of the stuff he did was alright..

Offline TempusVox

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #149 on: November 27, 2014, 12:54:35 PM »
When I was growing up (between the ages of 12-15), my father was stationed as a Col. in the US Army in Berlin. Myself and all of my friends were cautioned regularly by our parents to make sure we were always respectful to the Polizei. Not just because it was what was expected of us as human brings, and especially as children of officers, but because the German police would fuck you up if you didn't. I don't know if it was because we lived in a very tense city full of American, French, and British troops at the height of the cold war, while surrounded by communist country; or if all German police were hard as fuck. We were all basically taught that the phrase "police brutality" was not in the German vernacular. To give you an example of how leery of the German police I was; we used to stroll over to Brandenburg Gate, and throw rocks at the East German guard towers. Dangerous? Fuck yeah, on many fronts. Could have been shot, ended our fathers military careers, started WW III , and a bunch of other bad shit. (We used to also trade Playboy and Penthouse mags with the East German guards for hats, belt buckles, and insignia...most if which I still have, but that's for another time) Or we could have encountered the Polizei. I will tell you that any time there was a hint that they might roll up on us doing our stupid teenage shit, we got the hell outta Dodge as fast as we could. We were more afraid of them then any other possibility for sure. Anyway, as far as examples of the Polizei being hardcore I witnessed this first hand on three separate occasions.

The first happened on one warm sunny day when the Polizei stopped a guy on the sidewalk on a large and busy thoroughfare about 6 blocks from my house on Taylor Strasse. According to the Polizei he fit the description of a Lebanese national that was wanted by Interpol. When they asked to see his ID, he reached inside his suit coat, and they shot him 4 times, and left him graveyard dead on the sidewalk. THEY LEFT HIS BODY THERE FOR FOUR HOURS. In the middle of the day. The MP's couldn't touch him. He was shot by the German police. So the MP's politely cordoned off the area instead, and stood guard over the scene until the Germans came back and did their thing. Armed Forces TV broadcast what happened, and me and my friends literally had our own "Stand By Me" moment (before "The Body" was ever written), and rode our bikes just as fast as we could to the scene to see "The Body." Turns out he wasn't the guy they were looking for, and the Polizei's position was basically, "Eh, oh well, sorry."

The second occurred when we watched a guy in a Mercedes tap the rear of a truck that had stopped at a crosswalk. The Polizei showed up moments later and the guy in the Merc is screaming at the truck driver basically for stopping "too quickly", and the cops are trying to settle him down, and he now yells at one of them, and they (two cops) literally beat the fuck out of this guy. I'm talking, the ambulance came and took him away.

Now a little bit more about the cross walk thing. In Germany it was (probably still is) a law to stop at all crosswalks to let pedestrians pass. Something that America has been slow to come around to which is sad. But we as teenagers noticed that often times, fancy dressed, Mercedes driving, business types ignored this rule. They would slow down, but then speed on through; so we in our deviant teenage minds devised our own extortion scheme of sorts. We would stand near the crosswalk, and when we saw one of these guys come buzzing up to the crosswalk, we would start to step off the curb. They in turn would slow down, but not stop, and as they drove past, one of us would slap the rear quarter panel of the car hard, and fall down; while the rest of us would start screaming. Of course the guy would jump out, and the victim would demonstrate his foot, or his knee was injured, but of course not anything life threatening. We would all immediately start yelling for someone to call the Polizei. Immediately, the wallet would come out, and the marks would start flying our way. We justified this as the penalty they got for not stopping at the crosswalk.  :lol One summer we probably made somewhere around 700 dollars this way. Especially when they realized we were American kids. They wanted NO Polizei involvement.

The third thing I witnessed happened during a "parade". I put "parade" in quotes because I'm not talking about a 4th of July, or Founders Day parade; or Hell, even a May Day, or Carnival parade either. Seeing as how they were occupying an important, and symbolic city, and with nothing to do, about once a week, the Americans, French and British would wash their tanks, and vehicles and "parade" around the city. They did it of course at different times. So, there were these little military shows of force all the time. It was a pain in the ass. It was like waiting for a train to pass. Everything came to a halt while you waited for the military crap to go by. Sometimes it seemed to take forever. Me and my friend Rob and his German girlfriend Ingrid had gone to a movie, and had stopped at an imbiss (bascially a snack bar or stand) to get currywurst. I fucking love currywurst, but I digress. You could see that they were preparing to close the street. So we got stuck watching the Americans come rolling by; which really sucked because they usually paraded the longest. Standing about 15 feet from us were three German guys who were probably in their late teens or early 20's. They were dressed sort of like street punks (this was before punk really became a thing), and smoking "zigarettes". About twenty feet past them on the same sidewalk were two Polizei. They had pulled their little VW micro-bus van up onto the sidewalk next to them. They were kind of giving the punks the stink eye. At one point one of the kids hawks up a loogey, and spits at a tank as it rolls by. He and his friends laugh, and Ingrid muttered under her breath, "So stupid." in her delightfully German accented voice (I later stole her from Rob, but that's a different story). We all sort of simultaneously looked up at the two cops, and one of them wags his finger at the loogey-kid as if to say, "Tsk, tsk. Don't do that." So they all calmed down, but about 5 seconds later, the kid spit on the sidewalk in the direction of the cops. Now I don't mean he spit AT the cops. He didn't. It wasn't like he aimed and missed. But he turned in their direction and spit down at the sidewalk. Then the fun began.

The Polizei in Berlin used to sometimes carry these suped-up batons. They were made of hard rubber, and literally had lead or some heavy metal on the end. They were about 3' long. We usually used to see them when there was an event where large crowds gathered, so we called them "Riot sticks". I have no idea what they were really called. Anyway, one of the cops calmly walks up to the spitter, and takes his "riot stick", and gives a major league swing and upper cuts the kids jaw. His two friends take off, and one of them knocks Ingrid down as they run past us. Before the kid hits the ground, the cop gave another quick swing and hits the kid square in the face. Blood exploded everywhere. Nose, mouth, all busted and bleeding everywhere. They walk up, cuff him, and sort of drag his mostly limp body to the VW, and toss him in back, and go back to watching the parade. We got the fuck outta Dodge.

Now the reason I mention ALL of that is, it is amazing to me that we live in a country where people protect and lift up perpetrators of crime, and vilify the police who do their jobs. Now I'm also not naive enough to know that sometimes cops cross the line. Back in my law days I saw cops lie their asses off  time and time again. SOME of them plant evidence, harass, intimidate, and violate peoples civil rights. But in cases where the evidence justifies the use of force, the fact that people still deny the evidence and the facts is amazing to me. I blame the media for it's instant rush to judgement. Are there problems in the black community with the police? Sometimes. But Al Sharpton, and the NAACP, and the Black Panthers don't get up in arms about the murder of blacks by other blacks. In the year and a half between Trayvon Martins killing and George Zimmermans verdict, 11,106 black men/boys were killed by other black men/boys. ELEVEN THOUSAND!! Yet, people burn businesses to the ground because when a cop sadly has to use deadly force to stop someone,  he isn't indicted. What the fuck?? People need to wake up! If you don't like cops shooting people, then take every gun in America and bury it at sea first. Because that's the only way cops won't carry guns anymore. It won't happen. But if people like Michael Brown didn't do what he did, he would still be alive today.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 06:11:51 AM by TempusVox »
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #150 on: November 27, 2014, 12:57:40 PM »
Tempus, you should cut it out with putting words in Scheavo's mouth, because he's said time and time again that Brown doesn't get an excuse for the stuff he did, nor was that some of the stuff he did was alright..

I'm not trying to put words into anyone's mouth. I'm asking questions to seek understanding. He has questioned the validity of the evidence and events as they have been described though in a manner that suggests he either doesn't believe it, or that the events somehow unfolded differently. I don't know, I wasn't there. None of us thankfully were. But the grand jury heard the evidence that was presented and decided not to INDICT. Any other theory is speculation.

I think his central argument is that the way cops go about dealing with these things maybe could be done differently. Again, that's why I'm asking questions. And if that's the argument, I agree things should be different, but sadly I believe our society prevents us from doing that. But lets let him tell us without either of us putting words in his mouth.
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Offline Tick

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #151 on: November 28, 2014, 07:26:31 AM »
Who the hell is going to even want to be an officer anymore? Its pretty bad when you have to be afraid to enforce the law. Its seems like now if someone of color gets killed doing wrong its only because a white cop was corrupt and shot him for sport cause he's a racist. None of the other details even matter. The cop is guilty!


Also, a question I have I can't find an answer to...

You have the national guard in Ferguson to keep order when the verdict is read but where the hell were they hanging out?
Why would they not be lined up all the way down streets in front of businesses so these criminals couldn't break windows and steal?
And I said, what this really is when it boils down to it is domestic terrorism. Too much sympathy and tolerance for what took place. That's how I see it.
Lets face it, many of these animals got the exact verdict they wanted. All they really wanted was to get there Christmas shopping done early.
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Offline Tick

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #152 on: November 28, 2014, 08:13:21 AM »
Yup. Tick is dead on.  She's not your type.  Move on.   Tick is Obi Wan Kenobi


Offline Implode

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #153 on: November 28, 2014, 09:47:57 AM »
Yeah. Too bad he was shot in the face anyway.

Offline 73109

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #154 on: November 28, 2014, 01:11:31 PM »
What I find very interesting is that everyone here (with the exception of a few) want to take certain evidence that was given, disregard other evidence, and form a complete opinion on what happened. There is contradictory evidence concerning the scuffle in the car, the charging, what got him there, you name it. Autopsy reports have been able to discredit some evidence, but not all.

Ultimately, indictments should happen given "probable cause," defined as "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true." Now, it would seem to me, given the insane amount of evidence, a ton of which is contradictory, that a reasonable amount of suspicion is warranted here. Sure, you have some race baiters who want to disregard the fact that "hands up, don't shoot" has been proven untrue. But then again, you have people on the opposite who seem to completely disregard the very real fact that police brutality against black people is a real thing. Hell, we still haven't established why his body was found 153 feet away from the car at which Wilson shot. I remember a case a while back while this was still in its early stage where a drugged dude was meandering over toward a police officer and at around 23 feet away, he was shot and killed. So I do believe that pepper spray or a stun gun should be the first method deployed, but at 23 feet, ok, it's scary, you might have lost yourself. But let's remember, this is almost 7x that and we do not know how much he was charging. There is contradictory evidence! Some say he was stumbling, some running, some charging, etc.

The point is, it seems that there certainly is reasonable suspicion to believe that a crime was committed. Both sides are being myopic if they do not see this, I think. As far as I'm aware, and perhaps bosk could school me on this, a grand jury is supposed to indict based on reasonable suspicion and then a jury is supposed to flesh the whole thing out, gather more evidence and witnesses and then the decision is made beyond a reasonable doubt.

So, from this whole thing, I do think an indictment should have happened. As for a conviction post indictment, well, beyond a reasonable doubt is a strong phrase. Given what has been said, I do not think that it could have happened, and ultimately, Wilson would probably go free. Something does seem to be wrong though when there is a large number of (albeit contradictory) evidence that indicates that this was a crime but nothing happened.

That's just like...my opinion, man.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #155 on: November 28, 2014, 01:25:25 PM »
That's fine to have your opinion, but the grand jury, one that was selected back in the spring long before the Brown/Wilson tragic confrontation happened, saw and heard it all, and chose not to indict.  I think the fact that not even an indictment happened says a lot. 

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #156 on: November 28, 2014, 01:43:07 PM »
I don't think it says much at all.

Completely agree with 73109.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #157 on: November 28, 2014, 02:16:07 PM »
The only evidence that wasn't shown to the grand jury (to my knowledge) is the stuff that had already been flatly discredited.     Does discredited evidence need to be considered?    Funny that I get the opposite argument in the creation vs. evolution thread.   :angel:
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #158 on: November 28, 2014, 02:20:53 PM »

Yeah. Too bad he was shot in the face anyway.
This is exactly what I was thinking. And not all of his quotes were like this at all.

It's easy to say people should "remain calm" and "peacefully protest" when it's not kids from your neighborhoods and your sons getting murdered; and as if being peaceful did fuck all in the Trayvon Martin case, and as if just calmly spreading information did fuck all in all the other cases that were swept under the rug.

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #159 on: November 28, 2014, 02:29:57 PM »
Yes but what do violent protests accomplish?   The Watts riots were 50 years ago...and all the Ferguson riots did was prove that every race riot in our modern age has accomplished absolutely DICK.   

So lets see.    Peaceful protest accomplishes nothing or next to it...and violent protests accomplish nothing or next to it and kill innocent people and terrorize innocent business.   

hmmmmmm.....
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #160 on: November 28, 2014, 05:56:27 PM »
Sheavo...do you honestly believe that Brown had no involvement in the events that led to his death?

As I've said numerous times, his actions were stupid. Do you honestly believe that Wilson didn't have something to do with his death?

That's fine to have your opinion, but the grand jury, one that was selected back in the spring long before the Brown/Wilson tragic confrontation happened, saw and heard it all, and chose not to indict.  I think the fact that not even an indictment happened says a lot. 

But the process was flawed. The problem I have isn't that Wilson isn't being convicted of murder, it's that the grand jury process isn't supposed to determine innocence, or even view the full evidence. This was a perversion of the system, and it's not because Brown was black, but because Wilson was a cop.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #161 on: November 28, 2014, 08:50:25 PM »
And now protesters disrupted, and in some cases, closed shopping centers. Because that accomplished... what, other than annoying people out enjoying the holiday season with their families?
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #162 on: November 28, 2014, 09:39:10 PM »
And now protesters disrupted, and in some cases, closed shopping centers. Because that accomplished... what, other than annoying people out enjoying the holiday season with their families?

Nothing wins people over more than annoying holiday shoppers and costing retail workers hours and money/salary.  :lol :lol :lol



That's fine to have your opinion, but the grand jury, one that was selected back in the spring long before the Brown/Wilson tragic confrontation happened, saw and heard it all, and chose not to indict.  I think the fact that not even an indictment happened says a lot. 

But the process was flawed. The problem I have isn't that Wilson isn't being convicted of murder, it's that the grand jury process isn't supposed to determine innocence, or even view the full evidence. This was a perversion of the system, and it's not because Brown was black, but because Wilson was a cop.

No offense, but this sounds like code for, "The outcome isn't what I wanted, so I will say the process was flawed instead of accepting the results."

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #163 on: November 29, 2014, 09:53:51 AM »
No offense, but it sounds to me like you don't know what you're talking about.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/90-1972.ZS.html

Quote
To the contrary, requiring the prosecutor to present exculpatory as well as inculpatory evidence would alter the grand jury's historical role, transforming it from an accusatory body that sits to assess whether there is adequate basis for bringing a criminal charge into an adjudicatory body that sits to determine guilt or innocence. Because it has always been thought sufficient for the grand jury to hear only the prosecutor's side, and, consequently that the suspect has no right to present, and the grand jury no obligation to consider, exculpatory evidence, it would be incompatible with the traditional system to impose upon the prosecutor a legal obligation to present such evidence.

Fuck, you have me agreeing with Scalia. God dammit.


Offline KevShmev

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #164 on: November 29, 2014, 11:57:58 AM »
Dress it up however you like, but we both know that had an indictment been handed down, you wouldn't be in here saying the process was flawed, which means your opinion on the process was outcome-dependent, and since it didn't result in what you clearly wanted, it was therefore flawed.  I know you won't agree, so we can agree to disagree.

Offline 73109

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #165 on: November 29, 2014, 02:13:11 PM »
I do not see how that is necessarily the case. Had the grand jury came to a decision to indict based on all the evidence there was, then the correct decision would have been made through the wrong, flawed process.

99.9% of cases yield indictments but almost zero do in the case of cops. There seems to be a problem with those numbers. Why? Perhaps it is because, when it comes to cops, the grand jury does not act the way a grand jury is set up to act in the other 100,000+ cases a year.

Offline TempusVox

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #166 on: November 29, 2014, 08:25:39 PM »
Chapter 563 of the Missouri Revised Statutes grants a Hell of a lot of discretion to officers of the law to wield deadly force. The statute authorizes deadly force “in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody” if the officer “reasonably believes” it is necessary in order to “to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested has committed or attempted to commit a felony…or may otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.”

The legal Federal standard authorizing deadly force is something called “objective reasonableness", which often defaults back to the officers own threat assessment at the time he/she discharges their weapon.

Recently a teenage girl in my area was partying with friends in a field and an officer approached the more than 30 kids by himself. Everyone tried to take off. The young girl drove her car past the officer. Her friends say he jumped on the hood. He says she drove toward him and he was struck and wound up on the hood. He fired six shots into the drivers windshield killing her instantly. He wasn't indicted because the grand jury decided he felt he was in danger. They were both white btw.

With the rash of mass shootings by nut jobs, acts of domestic terrorism, and the fact that there are more than 310 million guns in the U.S- cops are by and large on high alert. A friend of mine from high school has been a cop both in the military and on a police force near Dayton, Ohio for more than 30 years; and he says anymore, every day, criminals become more and more brazen, emboldened, and sadistic. Cops know this.

Add to the fact that Brown attacked Wilson and injured him in his own cruiser. There was little chance he would be indicted.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #167 on: November 30, 2014, 05:34:18 AM »
They were both white btw.
I guess that explains why I haven't heard about this before now.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #168 on: November 30, 2014, 06:32:32 AM »
Just the way I see it.

It seems that many people who are rightfully agitated over a degraded state of affairs over a long period of time between minorities and the police in Ferguson (and indeed, all over the country) are using that as fuel for their outrage without taking into account that in this particular instance, it wasn't a matter of brutality or unwarranted violence, but a rather pathetic display by a criminal that led to his own downfall when it never had to happen.


I happen to agree that Michael Brown's death is almost certainly a result of poor decisions he made that day.  He didn't have to do what he allegedly did in the convenience store, and then he should have just moved to the sidewalk when the cop asked him to move.


So, yes, ultimately, the death of Michael Brown was caused -at least in part- by Michael Brown.


What I think has happened here, Hef, is it's one of those cases of "the straw that broke the camel's back."


Cops have been treating minorities like second-class citizens for DECADES with very little being done to address the issue.  It is an unmitigated fact that minorities and the poor are much more likely to come out on the losing end of a police engagement, that losing end often being death.


I think a lot of people are sick of it.  And this case has been a catalyst for change.




Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #169 on: November 30, 2014, 07:12:59 AM »
Cops have been treating minorities like second-class citizens for DECADES with very little being done to address the issue.  It is an unmitigated fact that minorities and the poor are much more likely to come out on the losing end of a police engagement, that losing end often being death.
I don't disagree with that.  But that doesn't appear to be what happened in THIS case.  In fact, the only reason this appears to me to be a story is that the dead criminal is black and the cop is white.  If the roles were reversed, or if both were black, or if both were white, this would be a non-story.

I think a lot of people are sick of it.  And this case has been a catalyst for change.
Not yet it hasn't.  We'll see.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #170 on: November 30, 2014, 08:57:14 AM »
Regardless of what happened with Wilson and Brown, I get why the community wants change, but the way they are going about it is terrible.  Burning down buildings, annoying holiday shoppers and laying down in front of traffic is not the way to win people over.  Change like this starts at the top, but when you have black "leaders" like Al Sharpton, who needs division to make money, stirring it up and making it worse, instead of calling for real change, it just makes it worse.  It also starts from within. Groups of protestors standing around chanting, "Fuck the police," really sound like people who want change and to get along better, right?

Offline orcus116

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #171 on: November 30, 2014, 01:31:24 PM »
Also how many of the rioters don't actually care about what's going on and are just pseudo anarchists that get their blood pumping from destroying property and burning stuff down with little to no repercussions?

Offline Implode

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #172 on: November 30, 2014, 04:25:54 PM »
Probably most of them. From what I've heard from the protesters, the vast majority are peaceful, and a select few rioted in isolated areas. Of course that's what the media focuses on though.

Offline TempusVox

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #173 on: November 30, 2014, 10:25:20 PM »
I have many black friends and family. And my roommate from colleges parents, who are black, I consider my parents. Seriously. My father couldn't give two shits about me growing up, and I lost my mother way too early. My roommates father was my male role model, confidant, and father figure from freshman year of college until now. School, career, relationships, marriages, divorce, fatherhood, illness, injury, life. He's been there for me. I love him like a father, and call him "Dad" and he calls me "Son". We speak at least once a week, and I am in his last will and testament. I have three black brothers and a black sister. My son calls him "Grand Dad". All of this may sound weird to some of you, but they are my family, and part of my foundation; and I am theirs. I love them with all of my heart.

I have seen the black community first hand. When my real father was in the military, wherever I lived growing up, I was a minority. The reason I say all of this is that I feel confident in saying, that real change needs to start for the black community, within the black community.

One of the biggest and longest enduring problems that prevents the black community as a whole from truly moving forward toward real progress and improvement is the process of reflection and self awareness. Self awareness in realizing there are deep rooted issues in black America and the willingness to accept, point them out, and therefore solve these problems in a meaningful way. In terms of reflection often times black people will look for any reason, person, or way to deflect self inflicted troubles away from the source. “The Man” can’t possibly be the root of all that curses, kills, exploits, and outright makes a mockery of the black race. At some point black culture needs to accept the cold hard truth about black culture.

Those same tired money grabbing assholes like Sharpton and Jackson perpetuate this stereotype. They claim to want to see the black community lifted up. But when was the last time they rallied a march in Cabrini Green in Chicago, or Compton, or even St. Louis? Why do they not get up in arms over that fact that during the same period of time as the Gulf War, 8X as many black men shot and killed other black men as US soldiers were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan? Gangster rappers glorify this stereotype that is totally destructive. Smoke yo' blunt, drink yo' 40 or yo' G and J. Wear yo' chains, and have yo' scoochies on call to treat like shit, and cast aside when you get her pregnant. It's all bullshit, and it's fucking sad. Dr. King would blow his brains out on live TV if he saw this shit going on today.

But nothing will ever change until the black community says enough. The police heavy handedness, if you can call it that (some would argue otherwise), is a symptom of a larger issue. What is saddest of all is that the majority of all of us want the same thing. Opportunity to live and lead a better life for our family, in a safe, and nurturing world. But the stereotype that continues to be perpetuated by the media, entertainment, and racially motivated ambulance chasers is that blacks are to be feared, they're angry, and always up to know good. Sadly, youth believe the hype. People need to wake the Hell up.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #174 on: November 30, 2014, 10:36:28 PM »
Dress it up however you like, but we both know that had an indictment been handed down, you wouldn't be in here saying the process was flawed, which means your opinion on the process was outcome-dependent, and since it didn't result in what you clearly wanted, it was therefore flawed.  I know you won't agree, so we can agree to disagree.

I'd ask you not to question my integrity. The process was absolutely flawed, and that has nothing to do with the case. From the very beginning, I have been decidedly neutral on this case. Go back and read for yourself. Your ascribing an opposing position to me I have never taken simply because I don't agree with you. I'm fine if you want to disagree, but please don't put words in my mouth to disagree with.