Author Topic: Ferguson  (Read 26987 times)

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #105 on: November 25, 2014, 01:52:49 PM »
Wilson's version of events is....hard to believe.


Remember when Rodney King was beaten and the riots that ensued?  The cops that beat Rodney King, who were clearly guilty of using excessive force, were acquitted at trial and some of the worst rioting ever recorded in the United States ensued.


But does anyone remember what happened AFTER that acquittal and subsequent rioting?


It ain't over yet, folks.  Not by a long shot.






Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #106 on: November 25, 2014, 01:55:06 PM »
So.....any guesses or opinions on what happens tonight? Does the rioting and looting continue or was last night it? I'm concerned that there may be more to come.....
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Online Chino

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #107 on: November 25, 2014, 01:58:13 PM »
I've read that more National Guard are coming in tonight. Hopefully that will keep things at bay. Also, I think it would be wise for all peaceful protesters to just stop and go home. That'd make it much easier to identify/take action against looters and vandals.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #108 on: November 25, 2014, 02:02:53 PM »
Wilson's version of events is....hard to believe.

.....yet supported by multiple African American eye witness accounts, pathology and autopsy reports and all physical evidence collected?? Is it hard to believe for you because you don't wan't to believe it...because there really isn't much to the story actually...it's pretty clear what happened.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #109 on: November 25, 2014, 02:05:44 PM »
I've read that more National Guard are coming in tonight. Hopefully that will keep things at bay. Also, I think it would be wise for all peaceful protesters to just stop and go home. That'd make it much easier to identify/take action against looters and vandals.
They didn't stay home in August, and the guard didn't make things any better.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #110 on: November 25, 2014, 02:08:50 PM »
I've read that more National Guard are coming in tonight. Hopefully that will keep things at bay. Also, I think it would be wise for all peaceful protesters to just stop and go home. That'd make it much easier to identify/take action against looters and vandals.
They didn't stay home in August, and the guard didn't make things any better.

I fear that one or multiple rioters/looters are going to end up getting killed.....I don't know how Law Enforcment can allow what happened last night to happen again. 200+ rounds of gunfire reported.....an officer getting shot. It's going to be frightening to see how this unfolds tonight....
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #111 on: November 25, 2014, 02:18:04 PM »
Nixon just announced there will be 2,200 National Guardsmen deployed tonight in Ferguson and the surrounding area...that's a lot of Soldiers. Going to be plenty of imagery tonight for Conspiracy theorists to latch onto for the whole 'militarized' deal.......

...they've stated multiple times in this press conference that 'There will not be a repeat of last night'......
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Offline Tick

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #112 on: November 25, 2014, 02:25:17 PM »
So.....any guesses or opinions on what happens tonight? Does the rioting and looting continue or was last night it? I'm concerned that there may be more to come.....
More rioting tonight for sure.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #113 on: November 25, 2014, 02:29:11 PM »

One is what I think is best for society and the public for there to be a public trial. I could care less about the merits of if Wilson deserves to be or not. The fact of the matter is, this has become a focal point for society. You or I don't have to like it, but that's the way it is. Due to that fact, a public trial is the best thing for the public. If the charges are a sham, that will be evident for every single person to see for themselves. The way it was done breeds disbelief, and it doesn't provide a closing to the issue. So as far as Wilson goes, I think he should be tried, but it frankly doesn't look like he should be found guilty.

Do you understand the grand jury process?  Honest question.

The grand jury isn't a public forum, but it is a well-established BY THE CONSTITUTION (remember the Executive Order thread where you argued that the EO is justified because it is a CONSTITUTIONAL tool?).  This is the mechanism where you make the decisions that you are suggesting.  And while we are one of the few common law jurisdictions (perhaps the only?) that still use it, it is designed to err in your favor (that is, in favor of your point of view) and they STILL didn't see the cause to indict.   Why do you insist on changing a program that has worked for over 235 years just because in this instance you didn't get the answer you - with incomplete information - think you should? 


Quote
Which is where the second issue is: general practices and acceptances. I don't think we should make Wilson a scape-goat, or Brown a martyr. I think it would be wrong to go after Wilson for following protocol, because that doesn't solve the problem of the protocol. I think the general practices, attitudes and training of the police are extreme in this country, and that we should tone it down. We  accept training and protocol which helps lead to situations whereby a sound, reasonable and justifiable argument can be made that the actions in that created situation were proper. As if I were to be standing above a crevice, and thinking the best way to get to the other side is to climb up the crevice wall, and then by justifying that logic by saying that if I were to jump down the crevice, the only way back up would be to climb up the wall. Maybe that's the case, or maybe you can walk down the crevice a ways, see if it ends, see if it reaches a point you can jump across, or build a bridge, or something which is more safe and practical.

Smacks of "let's just change the question until we get the answer we like".  Why does your logic only seem to apply to half the equation?  "It's all Wilson's fault, so let's change the system to drive different behavior in Wilson".  Why doesn't the verdict - the fact that now you can't commit battery on an officer, or you will be shot and rightly so - act to change the behavior of the future Browns of the world?  Your assumption - that it's all Wilson's fault - isn't necessarily true.  So why base all of the subsequent decisions on that? 

Offline jammindude

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #114 on: November 25, 2014, 02:39:02 PM »
I think this whole thing was doomed to be a witch hunt from the very beginning.    Nobody wants to hear the truth...regardless of what really happened.   A week before this decision came down, everyone in the street said PLAINLY that *NOTHING* but an indictment would satisfy them.    That spoke volumes.   It didn't matter to anyone IF the evidence came back that everything had been done properly.

It seems to me very clear that the EVIDENCE was simply NOT THERE.    The FACTS did NOT SUPPORT the shifting and inaccurate eyewitness accounts. 

It sounds like people believe there is still something sketchy about it...but I submit that it would not have mattered.   I believe with every fiber of my being that if the evidence was all in place, and the letter of the law was followed, and it was irrefutable that the officer took the proper action...it would not have changed the outcome in the slightest.   We would STILL be debating about conspiracies, there would still be rioting across the country, Ferguson would still be burning.     
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #115 on: November 25, 2014, 02:58:24 PM »
Wilson's version of events is....hard to believe.

.....yet supported by multiple African American eye witness accounts, pathology and autopsy reports and all physical evidence collected?? Is it hard to believe for you because you don't wan't to believe it...because there really isn't much to the story actually...it's pretty clear what happened.


 :rollin   OK

Offline jammindude

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #116 on: November 25, 2014, 02:59:20 PM »
 :facepalm:
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #117 on: November 25, 2014, 03:06:19 PM »

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #118 on: November 25, 2014, 03:11:24 PM »
Wilson's version of events is....hard to believe.

.....yet supported by multiple African American eye witness accounts, pathology and autopsy reports and all physical evidence collected?? Is it hard to believe for you because you don't wan't to believe it...because there really isn't much to the story actually...it's pretty clear what happened.


 :rollin   OK

So...you don't hold any merit for the Grand Jury and the process? The fact they listened to 70 hours of testimony....reviewed countless items of evidence...and was given full access to every resource available to them? You're basically saying that they are wrong....because they 'believe' Wison's account of the incident is the most plausible given the evidence that is associated with this case....It's impossible to argue the physical evidence/findings of this case.

I agree.  Physical evidence trumps any eye-witness accounts which are sure to be at the very least biased and more than likely partially made up. 

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #119 on: November 25, 2014, 03:15:00 PM »
Nixon just announced there will be 2,200 National Guardsmen deployed tonight in Ferguson and the surrounding area...that's a lot of Soldiers. Going to be plenty of imagery tonight for Conspiracy theorists to latch onto for the whole 'militarized' deal.......

...they've stated multiple times in this press conference that 'There will not be a repeat of last night'......
Nah, the police state imagery was last night when you had local cops on on sandbagged APCs facing off against unarmed and relatively peaceful protesters. I've got no problem with having the guard secure cities when riots break out (assuming there isn't a Ranger on hand to take care of it), but suburban cops decked out like they're the freaking MARSOC piss me off to no end.

And another thing, if there isn't a law that says cops have to display identification there damn sure should be. There's a reason badges and badge numbers exist, and ignoring that is bullshit. I don't expect riot cops to identify themselves to every rioter that asks, but displaying a badge number really shouldn't be too much to ask. Another example of LEO inventing their own rules.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #120 on: November 25, 2014, 03:17:42 PM »
And another thing, if there isn't a law that says cops have to display identification there damn sure should be. There's a reason badges and badge numbers exist, and ignoring that is bullshit. I don't expect riot cops to identify themselves to every rioter that asks, but displaying a badge number really shouldn't be too much to ask. Another example of LEO inventing their own rules.

That's a good point because in this day and age....really, how difficult would it be for you or I do obtain full riot gear....head to that cluster and 'blend' in to the surroundings and then just 'unload' on a group of people....seemingly looking like a Cop??
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #121 on: November 25, 2014, 03:23:49 PM »
And another thing, if there isn't a law that says cops have to display identification there damn sure should be. There's a reason badges and badge numbers exist, and ignoring that is bullshit. I don't expect riot cops to identify themselves to every rioter that asks, but displaying a badge number really shouldn't be too much to ask. Another example of LEO inventing their own rules.

That's a good point because in this day and age....really, how difficult would it be for you or I do obtain full riot gear....head to that cluster and 'blend' in to the surroundings and then just 'unload' on a group of people....seemingly looking like a Cop??
I suspect that'd actually be pretty hard. They're all using the same type of armor, and moreover I reckon they use COD or some other such indicator. (green bandanas, maybe  :lol)
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #122 on: November 25, 2014, 04:41:28 PM »
Sheavo, I'm not trying to pile on against your logic, but you have mentioned several times that Wilson blocked the street with his vehicle; and you use this as an example of how he escalated the situation. The fact is Brown and his convenience store accomplice were walking down the middle of the street and refused with Wilsons order to get onto the sidewalk. They also became verbally confrontational with him. It was then he drove in front of them and cut them off as they continued to walk up the street. All of this is part of normal police procedure. It was also then that Wilson noted they fit the description of the suspects who had assaulted and robbed a shopkeeper.

Police are trained to stop, confront, and apprehend suspects. Wilson had no idea what he was dealing with. No officer does, which is why its always a good idea to comply with the police. Once Wilson was attacked, he could not let him escape while waiting for backup; as he has a responsibility to keep othrrs safe in that scenario. But even then, after he was assauled, Wilson still didn't use deadly force until Brown, who initially was trying to escape after the assault, came back charging at Wilson.

As tragic as the conclusion was, personally I feel Brown is the one who was overwhelmingly responsible for his own death based upon his actions that day. And as much as I feel for his parents, they failed him in my opinion, because they raised a kid who would 1) Rob and assault another human being, and 2) Attack and assault a police officer. Did he deserve to die for stealing cigars and assaulting two people, one of whom was a cop? Hell no. But did his actions in charging the officer justify the use of deadly force? You betcha.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #123 on: November 25, 2014, 04:47:27 PM »
Flipping around the dial last night, there was some nut job on one of the cable news channels (cannot remember which, as I was going back and forth between CNN, Fox and MSNBC, just because I wanted to see how different the coverage was on each station) who, I swear, was saying that the fix was in, that the prosecutor rigged the whole grand jury process, and that nothing will change her thinking. In other news, she is gonna refuse to believe the facts, no matter how plainly they are laid out in front of her.  And you know she isn't alone in thinking that way.  Sad.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #124 on: November 25, 2014, 06:48:28 PM »
Stadler, I'm really not going to respond to someone who is so hostile and who pigeonholes me into things I've never said, whilst claiming I'm the one assuming something never assumed. Have fun arguing with straw men.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #125 on: November 25, 2014, 08:36:58 PM »
St Louis police scanner is pretty damned quiet. Mostly mundane calls. Sounds like things are pretty calm tonight. A far cry from the pandemonium we were hearing last night.
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Offline j

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #126 on: November 25, 2014, 08:49:05 PM »
But for the third time I'm curious how you can conclude with such certainty that Wilson was justified in wasting him the way he did?  The altercation where Brown went for his gun was over and he was some distance away, retreating at first!  What is the immediate threat on his life from an unarmed guy 20 feet (or whatever) away that his *only recourse* was to unload half a clip at the dude?

1.  The physical evidence shows that Brown was almost certainly charging at the officer when he was shot. 
2.  He was not "retreating."  "Retreating" and fleeing arrest are not the same thing.  By definition, the former is an outward showing of trying to de-escalate an aggressive situation whereas the latter is a crime and is by definition an escalation of the situation. "Retreating" simply not applicable in a context like this where you have an altercation with a law enforcement officer, which is a crime, and the law enforcement officer is then required to arrest.

To the first point, both autopsy reports appear to suggest only that he was moving toward Wilson.  They explicitly admit that they cannot estimate the speed at which he was moving, and certainly don't come anywhere near concluding that he was "almost certainly charging," although I will happily refer to a source that states otherwise?  I'm reading and hearing the "charging" thing a lot, and I'm not sure where it came from other than Wilson's mouth.  Again, not that it definitely didn't go down that way, but that seems like a pretty crucial detail that warrants reservation of judgment unless verified.

To the second point, if the word "retreat" has a specific legal definition that differs from the conventional definition (i.e. "to move away or withdraw"), I am ignorant of it.  At some point Brown created distance between himself and Wilson.  What--if anything--caused him to turn around and move back in his direction at some velocity, we will probably never know.

Quote
Doesn't matter.  An officer is not required to "wait for backup" in that situation (nor would it have been a good idea).  But none of that has anything to do with the fact of dispelling the media-perpetuated myth that Brown was "retreating" or "surrendering."  That is a separate issue, and it is black and white.

See above re: "retreating."  Either way, I agree it's clear that Wilson DIDN'T shoot him as he was fleeing or whatever.  Similarly to Scheavo, I'm not arguing that the dude should have been indicted or even that he didn't follow procedure.  I'm questioning the willingness of some to embrace his account and the way things played out as perfectly acceptable when there are so many unknowns.  To me, it sounds like Brown was a complete idiot who made some especially idiotic decisions, but I also have a general distrust of cops, particularly those with every motivation to tell a story a certain way.  So I guess I'd just like to see a little more skepticism from one side, and a little less race-baiting and other bullshit from the other.

On another note, clearly I didn't follow this whole thing very closely, but how in the hell was there not any kind of video or audio recording device on Wilson's car or person?

-J

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #127 on: November 25, 2014, 09:10:15 PM »
They keep showing protestors in cities all over the country doing that "hand up, don't shoot" think still.  Uh, considering the facts have shown that that was never the case, how dumb does that look now? I guess we can thank race hustlers like Al Sharpton for keeping that narrative going. 


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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #128 on: November 25, 2014, 09:26:07 PM »
The fact that we're getting some disruptive protests in cities thousands of miles form Ferguson really baffles me, although it probably shouldn't. Cases like this happen all the time but what makes this one bring out so many idiots en masse? Why was this particular one so sensationalized? Did it just happen to hit during a slow news period or something? I'm only really bringing this up because a few years ago in the city near me there was a very similar case where a kid got shot and killed by supposedly brandishing a knife at the police. There was a lot of civil unrest but it was localized.

Offline TempusVox

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #129 on: November 25, 2014, 10:32:40 PM »
J, the "charging" at Wilson comes not just from his testimony, but the testimony of eyewitnesses.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #130 on: November 26, 2014, 12:47:47 AM »
Freeways blocked again in Oakland tonight, along with looting and fires. Got many friends who live in the area, praying for their safety.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #131 on: November 26, 2014, 07:34:33 AM »
Sheavo, I'm not trying to pile on against your logic, but you have mentioned several times that Wilson blocked the street with his vehicle; and you use this as an example of how he escalated the situation. The fact is Brown and his convenience store accomplice were walking down the middle of the street and refused with Wilsons order to get onto the sidewalk. They also became verbally confrontational with him. It was then he drove in front of them and cut them off as they continued to walk up the street. All of this is part of normal police procedure. It was also then that Wilson noted they fit the description of the suspects who had assaulted and robbed a shopkeeper.

Why is it that, when I'm complaining about police procedures, people continue to repeat back to me what is normal police procedure?

And to be clear, I'm not saying that blocking the lane of traffic with his car was cause for Brown to punch him and assault him. I'm saying that Wilson chose to do that, was maybe "following procedure," and that those procedures seem rash and totally uncorrelated to the actual events. Yes, I know that Wilson knew Brown was a suspect, of a petty crime. Does that warrant such quick and authoritative response? I don't think it does. He had time to wait for back up. Brown was not a threat to other people.

Quote
Police are trained to stop, confront, and apprehend suspects. Wilson had no idea what he was dealing with. No officer does, which is why its always a good idea to comply with the police. Once Wilson was attacked, he could not let him escape while waiting for backup; as he has a responsibility to keep othrrs safe in that scenario. But even then, after he was assauled, Wilson still didn't use deadly force until Brown, who initially was trying to escape after the assault, came back charging at Wilson.

Again, disagreeing with the training here, so I don't care what they're trained to do. I also think it's weird that somehow Brown attacking Wilson suddenly means he's a threat to other people.

And the problem is that when police don't know what they're dealing with, they seem to respond in a brash, rash and aggressive way. They don't try any sort of out reach, they don't ry and calm down the situation. They do things which only escalate and make the situation worse.

Quote
As tragic as the conclusion was, personally I feel Brown is the one who was overwhelmingly responsible for his own death based upon his actions that day. And as much as I feel for his parents, they failed him in my opinion, because they raised a kid who would 1) Rob and assault another human being, and 2) Attack and assault a police officer. Did he deserve to die for stealing cigars and assaulting two people, one of whom was a cop? Hell no. But did his actions in charging the officer justify the use of deadly force? You betcha.

There's contrdictory information on the charging issue, there's some eyewitnesses who say so, there's some that don't. Given the level of mistrust I have in the prosecutor and police system in question (from the beginning, he was giving a defense of Wilson), I frankly don't know how to weight that information. And that's part of the problem and the point.

Either way, Brown charging at Wilson means Wilson, if he had grabbed it, could have used his pepper spray, or used a stun gun, or any other non-lethal measures.

I don't know why people seem to want to only take one side of the story, whether that's Wilsons or Brown's. This is speculative, yes, but why is it so hard to believe that: Wilson comes up, asks them to leave, Brown curses at him. Wilson is peeved by this (natural response to what Brown did), and when he realizes their suspects, he decides he's gonna show them a thing or two about who's in authority. Get's in over his head, get's punched because maybe he's a dick, because Brown gets hot-headed and is maybe provoct a little by Wilson. Then, after getting wailed on, Wilson is genuinely angry and pissed off, and instead of going for non-lethal means at his disposal, or waiting for back up in a situation where it would behoove him to wait, he chases after Brown with his gun. Then maybe Brown does double take, and Wilson fires.

We honestly don't know what happened when Brown turned around. I mean, think about that South Carolina case a few months back, where the guy went to get his wallet and got shot. To me, you have to give me a compelling reason why Brown would turn and run at an officer he knows has a gun, and whom already shot him. It's much more believable to me taht Brown stopped to surrender, realizing he's not going to outrun the cop, in a moment of defeat, and his actions were interpreted as way aggressive than they were.

And to repeat myself, it doesn't seem to me that Wilson should be convicted of murder. Depending upon the laws on the book, I might be sway-able to some form of manslaughter. And I don't think that Brown behaved well, I already said his actions are inexcusable, even if somewhat understandable.


Won't have time to respond till after the weekend, if there is anything to respond to. Maybe Thanksgiving will drown it out of all of us...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 07:44:13 AM by Scheavo »

Offline Tick

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #132 on: November 26, 2014, 08:08:55 AM »
I think the police and national guard in Ferguson were too soft in response to the riots. A message needed to be sent that it isn't cool to loot and destroy public property because you are unsatisfied with justice. Its complete bullshit to have buildings torched and business destroyed. These douche bags waited in the wings to do what they did. They really got the outcome they wanted, cause the officer being indited would not have allowed them their fun.
This shit needs to treated as an act of terrorism and acted on as such. That's what should happen in my opinion.
To many pieces of shit like Al Sharpton are looking past the insanity and basically saying Ferguson is getting what it should expect cause justice wasn't done. Guys like him are the biggest racists of all cause they would rather see the white cop go to jail regardless of what any evidence showed.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #133 on: November 26, 2014, 08:18:25 AM »
Yes, I know that Wilson knew Brown was a suspect, of a petty crime. Does that warrant such quick and authoritative response? I don't think it does. He had time to wait for back up. Brown was not a threat to other people.
You keep mentioning backup.  Where is the need for backup at this point in the encounter?  He was a suspect, as you said, of a petty crime.  No reason that a cop should require backup to deal with an unarmed suspect of a petty crime.  Wilson went to deal with the situation as he should have.

I also think it's weird that somehow Brown attacking Wilson suddenly means he's a threat to other people.
I think it's weird that you somehow DON'T think that an already wanted suspect who is willing to assault an armed law-enforcement officer wouldn't be considered a threat to other people.

The fact of the matter is that Michael Brown is dead because of the decisions made by Michael Brown.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #134 on: November 26, 2014, 08:51:49 AM »
And to be clear, I'm not saying that blocking the lane of traffic with his car was cause for Brown to punch him and assault him. I'm saying that Wilson chose to do that, was maybe "following procedure," and that those procedures seem rash and totally uncorrelated to the actual events. Yes, I know that Wilson knew Brown was a suspect, of a petty crime. Does that warrant such quick and authoritative response?

It warrants exactly the response it got, and I have a hard time seeing how any objective person could rationally think otherwise.

And this:

Yes, I know that Wilson knew Brown was a suspect, of a petty crime. Does that warrant such quick and authoritative response? I don't think it does. He had time to wait for back up. Brown was not a threat to other people.
You keep mentioning backup.  Where is the need for backup at this point in the encounter?  He was a suspect, as you said, of a petty crime.  No reason that a cop should require backup to deal with an unarmed suspect of a petty crime.  Wilson went to deal with the situation as he should have.

I also think it's weird that somehow Brown attacking Wilson suddenly means he's a threat to other people.
I think it's weird that you somehow DON'T think that an already wanted suspect who is willing to assault an armed law-enforcement officer wouldn't be considered a threat to other people.

The fact of the matter is that Michael Brown is dead because of the decisions made by Michael Brown.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #135 on: November 26, 2014, 09:32:17 AM »
Yes, I know that Wilson knew Brown was a suspect, of a petty crime. Does that warrant such quick and authoritative response? I don't think it does. He had time to wait for back up. Brown was not a threat to other people.
You keep mentioning backup.  Where is the need for backup at this point in the encounter?  He was a suspect, as you said, of a petty crime.  No reason that a cop should require backup to deal with an unarmed suspect of a petty crime.  Wilson went to deal with the situation as he should have.

I also think it's weird that somehow Brown attacking Wilson suddenly means he's a threat to other people.
I think it's weird that you somehow DON'T think that an already wanted suspect who is willing to assault an armed law-enforcement officer wouldn't be considered a threat to other people.

The fact of the matter is that Michael Brown is dead because of the decisions made by Michael Brown.

Well said Hef......
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #136 on: November 26, 2014, 09:45:51 AM »
Just the way I see it.

It seems that many people who are rightfully agitated over a degraded state of affairs over a long period of time between minorities and the police in Ferguson (and indeed, all over the country) are using that as fuel for their outrage without taking into account that in this particular instance, it wasn't a matter of brutality or unwarranted violence, but a rather pathetic display by a criminal that led to his own downfall when it never had to happen.
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #137 on: November 26, 2014, 10:54:25 AM »
Yes, I know that Wilson knew Brown was a suspect, of a petty crime. Does that warrant such quick and authoritative response? I don't think it does. He had time to wait for back up. Brown was not a threat to other people.
You keep mentioning backup.  Where is the need for backup at this point in the encounter?  He was a suspect, as you said, of a petty crime.  No reason that a cop should require backup to deal with an unarmed suspect of a petty crime.  Wilson went to deal with the situation as he should have.

I also think it's weird that somehow Brown attacking Wilson suddenly means he's a threat to other people.
I think it's weird that you somehow DON'T think that an already wanted suspect who is willing to assault an armed law-enforcement officer wouldn't be considered a threat to other people.
The fact of the matter is that Michael Brown is dead because of the decisions made by Michael Brown.

A couple of points to remember here that seem to be overlooked:
1) The robbery of the Swisher Sweets or whatever the hell he stole from the market, was indeed a petty crime. But we know that after the fact. When a call comes into the police in the field they don't describe it as a petty crime. And they usually don't say, "The suspect stole some cigars, and maybe a quart of milk, and possibly some rubbers, but we don't know." It's typically called into by code. In this case it was probably the code for "Aggravated Robbery", which is the taking of goods from another by use of force. That's all the officer has to go by. Cops have to make sometimes split second decisions or people will die. For all he knew Michael Brown could have been whacked out on PCP, or  maybe he was schizophrenic. Especially when he rolled up on two guys tooling down the middle of the street during the middle of the day. He doesn't have time to figure out his mental health status. He tells them to get out of the middle of the street. They refuse to comply. They also cuss at the cop. In this situation he is trained to control the situation. Any NORMAL person would simply comply, which is reasonable, and the law.
It's about this time he realizes they fit the description of the suspects in the robbery, and notices Brown carrying cigars. He cuts them off, and as he's getting out of the car, Brown slams his head in the door, and reaches in for Wilson's gun. They struggle. Brown fires shots into his own cruiser. At this point in time if Brown is willing to attack an officer, and try to take his weapon, (so #2) he is a THREAT and is dangerous to other people. They take off and Wilson gets out. Brown comes back towards him, and Wilson fires as he is trained to do.
Tragic- yes. Racially motivated-No. Police brutality-No.

The scenario that Wilson was pissed and wanted to basically show him who was in charge is pure fantasy and speculation and not based on any witnesses or evidence. There is NOTHING to state that Wilson just wanted to shoot somebody. Brown escalated the situation. And it started when he assaulted the owner and robbed the market; but really escalated when confronted by Wilson.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #138 on: November 26, 2014, 11:01:27 AM »
And to add to that, Wilson is also then charged with attempting to immediately apprehend Brown, a fleeing suspect--not wait for backup and hope the situation cools down and that they don't lose him.  It is his responsibility (not to mention, just the best, safest, and most prudent course of action) to put himself at risk and immediately apprehend the suspect if reasonably possible.  Not only is it procedure, but it is the BEST procedure and is in the public interest.

I have no idea whether Wilson was pissed off, or whether he is a racist.  If either of those turn out to have been a motivating factor, that is indeed tragic, sad, and disgusting.  But at the end of the day, it is also completely irrelevant because, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, Wilson did exactly what he should be expected of him, both according to procedure and also according to how a functioning society should reasonably expect its law enforcement officials to conduct themselves.  Or to put it another way,

The fact of the matter is that Michael Brown is dead because of the decisions made by Michael Brown.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline El Barto

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #139 on: November 26, 2014, 11:10:13 AM »
While I am mostly on Johnny's side here and can't really get on board Scheavo's boat, there are a couple of things I think are wrong with those posts. If I'm not mistaken the radio call specifically described the strong-arm theft of a box of smokes. While probably still a felony, he didn't have any reason to assume these guys just knocked over a liquor store, executing the employees. Second, I'm not real keen on considering walking down the street flight. The way it sounds to me they were highly casual whilst waking away from the crime. Lastly, best practice is to handle the situation safely. When one of the suspects is Andre the Giant and they're in no hurry to get anywhere, having some backup seems like better procedure.
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