Metallica Thread

[jammindude]

For the longest time I didn't know the beginning of For Whom the Bell Tolls was played by a bass, but other than that, yeah, the bass isn't all that loud. It's a big louder on Master of Puppets, especially on Orion. I've never understood why he's obtained godly bass guitar player status though. If he didn't die, would people have still held him so highly?

People still don't believe me....but even when Cliff was still alive, Anesthesia was the bass "Eruption" of its time.   I've never known so many people who picked up a bass instead of a guitar JUST because of that song.    It's only been within the last 5+ years or so that I've started to hear people slag on it, and it still seems sacrilegious to me.    Just an amazing, jaw-dropping performance.   

[black_biff_stadler]

Yup. All of that^. It's mainly younger people who are of the same mindset as those who scoff at 80s gaming consoles cuz "lol dont look liek xbox". Basically, those who try to judge everything like it was all released at the same time instead of appreciating things as they are unto themselves as well as how impressive they were compared to their contemporaries. I get that prog and other shredcentric genres have since made what Cliff was doing look less impressive but in the rock and metal world of the early 80s bass shredding was far from common especially to the skillful extent he was doing it.

Beyond these points, his wings were possibly clipped by the fact that thrash didn't have the same freedom to include bass shredding in numerous spots on an album as more experimental genres did. You'll get the occasional flourish like the Bells intro, Anesthesia, or his Ktulu fills, but there was virtually no way they were gonna let him cut loose like Les Claypool in the majority of tracks. So basically, I feel he would have a much more lasting legacy with noobs if he'd been allowed to have even 25% as many opportunities to shred as Kirk did.

[Zook]

Except I thought Anesthesia sounded like crap 20 years ago. You people need to come up with a new argument that doesn't just generalize and make blind assumptions. There's no denying Cliff Burton was a good bassists and deserves praise, but the level he's elevated to is a tad ridiculous. Just because I was a year old when he died doesn't mean I can't have an opinion.

[XB0BX]

14. Super Collider
13. Risk
12. Cryptic Writings
11. Thirteen
10. Countdown to Extinction
09. The World Needs a Hero
08. United Abominations
07. Killing is my Businness... And Business Is Good!
06. So Far, So Good... So What!
05. The System Has Failed
04. Peace Sells... But Who's Buying?
03. Endgame
02. Youthanasia
01. Rust in Peace

[Zook]

I GET IT!

[Dream Team]

I hope they do this. I'm glad they're at least open with the idea for a remaster/remix. There's nothing wrong with it as probably the only thing holding stuff back like this from being made possible is people not liking change. We do not like change, especially the fans. The beauty about it is you don't have to buy or listen to them if they're available.

I agree with Justice should also be looked at, the bass guitar should be leveled out professionally. I've done it before so I already can imagine how it "could" sound, just PLZ NO BRICKWALL.

Also I agree with the re-recording portion of Rust In Peace. Pretty shit and one of the reasons it felt out of favor as one of the best remixes for Megadeth. At least the overall sound is awesome, the original is of course the best. Undisputable.

Seems to my ears he turned Ellefson's volume down on purpose since it was pre-reunion.

[dparrott]

Except I thought Anesthesia sounded like crap 20 years ago. You people need to come up with a new argument that doesn't just generalize and make blind assumptions. There's no denying Cliff Burton was a good bassists and deserves praise, but the level he's elevated to is a tad ridiculous. Just because I was a year old when he died doesn't mean I can't have an opinion.

I sure don't know of any bass player that can make a bass sound like a guitar like that. 

[BlobVanDam]

Except I thought Anesthesia sounded like crap 20 years ago. You people need to come up with a new argument that doesn't just generalize and make blind assumptions. There's no denying Cliff Burton was a good bassists and deserves praise, but the level he's elevated to is a tad ridiculous. Just because I was a year old when he died doesn't mean I can't have an opinion.

I sure don't know of any bass player that can make a bass sound like a guitar like that. 

Plenty can, they just don't, because it doesn't sound pleasant and doesn't really work in a song.

[Kotowboy]

Except I thought Anesthesia sounded like crap 20 years ago. You people need to come up with a new argument that doesn't just generalize and make blind assumptions. There's no denying Cliff Burton was a good bassists and deserves praise, but the level he's elevated to is a tad ridiculous. Just because I was a year old when he died doesn't mean I can't have an opinion.

I sure don't know of any bass player that can make a bass sound like a guitar like that. 

Plenty can, they just don't, because it doesn't sound pleasant and doesn't really work in a song.

Cliff was by no means the greatest bass player that ever lived. After the stems for the first few albums became available it became clear he had bad technique and covered up his mistakes with loads of distortion.

I'm pretty sure that if he simply quit the band in 1985 instead of dying - he wouldn't be held in such high regard.

[KevShmev]

People still don't believe me....but even when Cliff was still alive, Anesthesia was the bass "Eruption" of its time.   I've never known so many people who picked up a bass instead of a guitar JUST because of that song.    It's only been within the last 5+ years or so that I've started to hear people slag on it, and it still seems sacrilegious to me.    Just an amazing, jaw-dropping performance.   

That might be, but to me, while Eruption is a perfectly-crafted guitar showcase, featuring a really nice melody while still being totally showy, Anesthesia sounds like a guy fiddling around on his bass guitar, almost like he is just goofing around while trying to get a particular sound or find a melody in their somewhere.  In other words, it sounds like a mess.  I know some of you will disagree, and that's fine, but equating it to a legendary song like Eruption is more sacrilegious than any criticism of Anesthesia could ever be.

[TAC]

I'm pretty sure that if he simply quit the band in 1985 instead of dying - he wouldn't be held in such high regard.

I agree with that.

[Kotowboy]

I'm pretty sure that if he simply quit the band in 1985 instead of dying - he wouldn't be held in such high regard.

I agree with that.

He died young and played bass on Master Of Puppets - one of the best metal albums ever. Apparently thats enough to warrant being called the greatest bass player ever.

But imagine if it was Lars who had died in 1986. Would he now be regarded as the greatest metal drummer of all time ?

[Dark Castle]

Probably, since people now treat The Rev from Ax7 like he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Not saying he was a bad drummer, but he was far from the regard he's now held in.

[black_biff_stadler]

Imagine if it was Lars who had died in 1986. Would he now be regarded as the greatest metal drummer of all time ?

Lars was never held in nearly as high a regard as Cliff was anyway so that's a pretty exaggerated comparison.

[TAC]

Imagine if it was Lars who had died in 1986. Would he now be regarded as the greatest metal drummer of all time ?

Lars was never held in nearly as high a regard as Cliff was anyway so that's a pretty exaggerated comparison.

Don't know if I agree. Cliff was pretty much gone before anyone noticed. I knew a lot of people, myself included, that thought Lars was pretty good.

[Kotowboy]

He was pretty good all the way up until and including 2003. I stand by his "playing" on St. Anger. Drum sound is another story.

But his playing on St. Anger and the DVD that came with it - he's really on fire. Some of his most energetic and interesting drumming since AJFA.

Again - drum sound is another matter.

Something happened in 2004 where James forgot how to sing and Lars completely forgot how to drum in time.

I think that if they'd called it a day after S&M in 1999 - it would have been a fitting end to their career and we'd have none of the horrors that followed.

[King Postwhore]

Imagine if it was Lars who had died in 1986. Would he now be regarded as the greatest metal drummer of all time ?

Lars was never held in nearly as high a regard as Cliff was anyway so that's a pretty exaggerated comparison.

Don't know if I agree. Cliff was pretty much gone before anyone noticed. I knew a lot of people, myself included, that thought Lars was pretty good.

At first I thought Lars was really good but over the years he's regressed in his playing.  Never adventurous.  Is that bad?  No, but he's not mindblowning as a drummer.

[TAC]

I liken him to an aging athlete. Some performances, he seems to be hanging on for dear life.

But I cannot get on the Lars Bashwagon. He and his band were so great and influential. Unfortunately, they just didn't have it in them to have a productive second half of a career. Successful, I guess, but not productive.

[Zantera]

I think Lars is fine on their classic albums. What always struck me as weird was kinda how lazy he was though. Like, it always felt like he relied a lot on fast drumming, his own "raw" energy and just bashing the shit out of his drum kit. He never really seemed ambitious to develop his skill and get better on a technical level.

[jammindude]

It's really simple.   Lars was a master of "I lost my place, so I'm going to make up a fill until I find it again."   But to tell you the truth, I always knew what he was doing, and I personally thought he was pretty damn good at it.    Sometimes, magic happened in those little "oh crap, where am I" moments. 

[Moor]

I had the chance to watch Through the Never the other day... What a great way to listen to those tunes in such a big production/effects and concept. I really liked it.

IMO the box office failure is another evidence that "what happens in the metal scene stays in the metal scene"

[me7]

The box office failure stems from the delusion that people who don't like Metallica would pay for it as well.
...and for fans it was a disappointment because there was very little music in it (maybe an hour if I remember correctly).

[Kotowboy]

Yes for a similar experience without the narrative part - just watch Francais Pour Une Nuit - Metallica in Nimes DVD.

[Zantera]

I think also, a lot of people just don't understood the point of, or the idea behind Through the Never. Is it a movie or is it a concert? It's like they tried to mash the two things together and people got confused along the way. I think the problem is that people who go for the music will be disappointed that it's not just a straight concert, and the people who go for the movie experience might not be Metallica fans, and so the music might ruin it. In between those two groups, you have a smaller group of fans who might like it for what it is, both movie and concert, but I have a feeling that mixing the two alienated a lot of potential viewers.

[Ultimetalhead]

I thought it was extremely stupid and unnecessary, but Metallica does extremely stupid and unnecessary things kind of a lot.

[me7]

I thought it was extremely stupid and unnecessary, but Metallica does extremely stupid and unnecessary things kind of a lot.

This is sig material.

[Kotowboy]

I thought it was extremely stupid and unnecessary, but Metallica does extremely stupid and unnecessary things kind of a lot.

Pretty much every idea they've had since Jason left.

[jammindude]

I thought it was extremely stupid and unnecessary, but Metallica does extremely stupid and unnecessary things kind of a lot.

Actually, this is the kind of thing that makes me start liking them again...something I haven't truly felt since 1990.   (well...maybe briefly with St Anger and Lulu)

[Zantera]

While And Justice For All was the last album I truly loved by them, I will admit that I have a soft spot for Load. I know Load/ReLoad gets a lot of hate, mainly by fans claiming the band "sold out". What I appreciate about Load is that Metallica followed their own music ambitions and went out of their usual box to create something different. I don't see it as selling out, because it's not like Metallica was a small band before. If you look at their success and popularity coming off of Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets, And Justice, and most recently the Black Album, it's not like they had little popularity and needed a big break. So I have much admiration for Load, because the band did what they wanted to do themselves, even if it meant risking some outcry among the fans.

On the opposite of that, for the same reasons, I can't stand Death Magnetic. In my opinion it just feels fake, and it really just felt like the band took a step back, said "what do the fans want from us?" and then made an album. I know fans of their original style who might have been bored with the albums after Black Album were hyped, and I suppose if you don't really care about the heart or intent behind an album, all that remains is the sound. Even St. Anger felt more genuine to me. It's not a great album at all, but after watching the documentary and hearing the album, you could tell what they were going for, even if they missed the mark. Quality and admiration are two different things. Metallica made a safe album in the style that most people like them for, and so naturally it is going to appeal to a lot of fans right off the bat. While that's the Metallica sound I like myself, I just felt like the band did it for the wrong reasons. You do your albums for yourself and live shows for the fans.

[Ultimetalhead]

While And Justice For All was the last album I truly loved by them, I will admit that I have a soft spot for Load. I know Load/ReLoad gets a lot of hate, mainly by fans claiming the band "sold out". What I appreciate about Load is that Metallica followed their own music ambitions and went out of their usual box to create something different. I don't see it as selling out, because it's not like Metallica was a small band before. If you look at their success and popularity coming off of Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets, And Justice, and most recently the Black Album, it's not like they had little popularity and needed a big break. So I have much admiration for Load, because the band did what they wanted to do themselves, even if it meant risking some outcry among the fans.

Assuming that's true, then yeah. You can give them props all day for being creative and following their ambitions or whatever. The fact is, this happened directly after Metallica REALLY hit it big. Yeah, there was a lot of hype in the metal community for The Black Album, but that gave them WAY more mainstream success than they EVER would have had without it. I mean, they toured on that thing for 4 fucking years. I can't see Load as anything more than trying to recapture the same spirit, if not going even more commercial to try to make it happen again. There's just not enough creative merit on Load to give it a pass, if you ask me. The songs aren't complex or fleshed out (save for The Outlaw Torn and MAYBE The House Jack Built), following the same boring verse-chorus structure. And honestly, aside from the two aforementioned songs, I can't see anything on Load that wasn't trying to appeal to the mainstream aside from it being a near 80 minute album that could have been barely passable if it only lasted for 50. The only songs I can tolerate anymore are Until it Sleeps, Hero of the Day, Bleeding Me, and The Outlaw Torn.

On the opposite of that, for the same reasons, I can't stand Death Magnetic. In my opinion it just feels fake, and it really just felt like the band took a step back, said "what do the fans want from us?" and then made an album. I know fans of their original style who might have been bored with the albums after Black Album were hyped, and I suppose if you don't really care about the heart or intent behind an album, all that remains is the sound. Even St. Anger felt more genuine to me. It's not a great album at all, but after watching the documentary and hearing the album, you could tell what they were going for, even if they missed the mark. Quality and admiration are two different things. Metallica made a safe album in the style that most people like them for, and so naturally it is going to appeal to a lot of fans right off the bat. While that's the Metallica sound I like myself, I just felt like the band did it for the wrong reasons. You do your albums for yourself and live shows for the fans.

All of that exactly. My hype for Death Magnetic was astronomical and I enjoyed the shit out of it for about a month before realizing it sounds forced and bored.

[bosk1]

On the opposite of that, for the same reasons, I can't stand Death Magnetic. In my opinion it just feels fake, and it really just felt like the band took a step back, said "what do the fans want from us?" and then made an album.

I have absolutely no problem with that approach whatsoever.  But unfortunately...

...it sounds forced and bored.

[Zantera]

I think that's always how it is. You should always make an album for yourself and not for the fans. Sometimes a band makes what we would consider a "safe" album, but it is genuinely what they want to make, and it also just happens to be what the fans want to hear, and I think that's when you end up with an album like Iron Maiden's Brave New World. A genuinely good album which wasn't catered just to the fans, but the band wanted to make that kind of album. Death Magnetic in comparison just seemed so lifeless. It was as if they ONLY made it for the fans, and had zero passion or enthusiasm for it.

[Kotowboy]

On St. Anger it sounded at least like they were playing the shit out of their instruments.  There's so much energy on that album and the DVD is even better.

Lars particularly plays some really crazy stuff.

On Death Magnetic it sounds so lifeless and flat and lacking in any energy at all.

[bosk1]

On Death Magnetic it sounds so lifeless and flat and lacking in any energy at all.

While I do not disagree, it should be pointed out in all fairness that the album is so brickwalled and flatlined that there are no dynamics whatsoever and the listener cannot easily discern a lot of what is being played other than what is right upfront in the mix.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

On St. Anger it sounded at least like they were playing the shit out of their instruments.  There's so much energy on that album and the DVD is even better.

Lars particularly plays some really crazy stuff.

On Death Magnetic it sounds so lifeless and flat and lacking in any energy at all.

This is totally true, and I have to admit to absolutely and unironically loving Frantic.