Metallica Thread

[Grappler]

I'm so happy to have some audio of Seattle 89.

They released an incredible, nearly 90 minute interview with the full band regarding Justice - https://youtu.be/vMc24819DXk

[mikeyd23]

I'm so happy to have some audio of Seattle 89.

They released an incredible, nearly 90 minute interview with the full band regarding Justice - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMc24819DXk

Yeah watching the interview now, good stuff in here. I like the amount of time they've spent talking about Frayed Ends.

[Samsara]

Is that interview in the box set? I've been avoiding everything because I plan to sit down with the box set when it arrives, and watch everything. I don't want to spoil it if that interview is in there.

[Grappler]

Is that interview in the box set? I've been avoiding everything because I plan to sit down with the box set when it arrives, and watch everything. I don't want to spoil it if that interview is in there.

I don't think so.  It's a new interview with David Fiske that was debuted on Facebook last night.

[Samsara]

Thanks Grapp. I'll cue it up.

[mikeyd23]

Yeah the interview is not in the box set, they just filmed the interview a couple weeks ago and streamed it last night.

[DTA]

Incredible interview. One lingering question I've yet to see answered is why they never played Dyers Eve, TLITD, and Frayed Ends on the actual Justice tour. I'm always curious how they choose which songs to play and why they only did 6/9 songs live out of 180+ shows.

[Samsara]

I'm 25 minutes in, and really enjoying this interview. So glad they did this. 

[mikeyd23]

Incredible interview. One lingering question I've yet to see answered is why they never played Dyers Eve, TLITD, and Frayed Ends on the actual Justice tour. I'm always curious how they choose which songs to play and why they only did 6/9 songs live out of 180+ shows.

It's a good question. It was interesting to hear that Rob basically pushed them to finally play Dyers and Frayed Ends.

[Grappler]

It was interesting to see their faces when they started talking about Cliff and Jason.  30+ years later and you can see that they're still really affected by Cliff's death. 

Listening to the remaster right now.  This band is amazing - I've listened to them for 27 years and I tend to leave the discs on the shelf most of the time.  I've heard the music so many times that I just don't need to hear it a lot.  But when I do listen, I'm still just as in awe as I was when I was a kid and rabid Metallica fan. 

[mikeyd23]

The only thing that could have made that interview better is if Jason was there. I totally understand why he wasn't, he doesn't seem to have interest in doing Metallica related things anymore outside of the Fillmore stuff. But having his perspective 30 years later, that would have been cool.

[Samsara]

The only thing that could have made that interview better is if Jason was there. I totally understand why he wasn't, he doesn't seem to have interest in doing Metallica related things anymore outside of the Fillmore stuff. But having his perspective 30 years later, that would have been cool.

I agree. It felt like that was a big gap. I loved the interview, but was curious as to Jason's absence. As far as I remember, they are all on good terms, so that's strange. Grapp hit the nail on the head regarding the loss of Cliff though. That will always be an open wound, as opposed to a scar.

I am waiting for the box set to be delivered. I'm annoyed, because I ordered through Metallica.com, because I thought Amazon wouldn't have it. So I paid something like $236 for it, when I could have had it for $199 on Amazon. And Amazon would have it to my office today. My fingers are crossed Metallica will make sure it is delivered today. I have the tracking number, and it was supposed to have shipped on Tuesday. But when my tracking number didn't show any updates as of yesterday, I wrote them, and was told that it had shipped, but USPS won't update the tracking "for a few days." So I have no way of knowing when it will be here (it isn't updated today, either).

Grr. I could have saved almost 40 bucks and had better tracking had I just gotten it on Amazon. Lesson learned.

[nobloodyname]

^^^ That's really annoying. I feel your frustration.

In a similar vein, I pre-ordered Steven Wilson's Home Invasion from Burning Shed over a month ago and expected to receive it today (the day of release). Guess what? Delays in getting all their shipment, which they knew about two days ago but didn't bother informing their customers, thereby removing the option of cancelling the order and ordering from Amazon instead, and saving £5 in the process. Burning Shed has previous on this.

Anyway, back to 'tallica: only watched 20 minutes of the interview so far, looks like it'll be well worth watching the rest. Not sure about the interviewer, though. Just ask the bloody question, mate, it's not about you!

My box set arrived today, happily, but I've not looked through the contents yet. Nice and weighty, though. I like that

[Samsara]

My box set arrived today, happily, but I've not looked through the contents yet. Nice and weighty, though. I like that

Did you go through Metallica, or through Amazon (or some place else)?

I am hoping, particularly since they are shipping from HQ, that I'll have mine today. I mean hell, I could drive on my lunch hour and go pick it up if need be. Of course, I'd probably be on the news for geeking out and causing a disturbance at HQ, so probably not the best move. 

[nobloodyname]

Amazon. I'm in the UK, though.

[Samsara]

Amazon. I'm in the UK, though.

Ah. Ok. Thanks man. Enjoy the set when you get a chance to sit down with it. 

[DTA]

The only thing that could have made that interview better is if Jason was there. I totally understand why he wasn't, he doesn't seem to have interest in doing Metallica related things anymore outside of the Fillmore stuff. But having his perspective 30 years later, that would have been cool.

I agree. It felt like that was a big gap. I loved the interview, but was curious as to Jason's absence. As far as I remember, they are all on good terms, so that's strange. Grapp hit the nail on the head regarding the loss of Cliff though. That will always be an open wound, as opposed to a scar.

I doubt his absence was anything malicious or intentional. They're clearly in their pre-show backstage rehearsal room so it's obviously an interview they agreed to do before performing later that night. It probably seemed excessive to fly Jason out just to sit in for an hour interview.

[mikeyd23]

The only thing that could have made that interview better is if Jason was there. I totally understand why he wasn't, he doesn't seem to have interest in doing Metallica related things anymore outside of the Fillmore stuff. But having his perspective 30 years later, that would have been cool.

I agree. It felt like that was a big gap. I loved the interview, but was curious as to Jason's absence. As far as I remember, they are all on good terms, so that's strange. Grapp hit the nail on the head regarding the loss of Cliff though. That will always be an open wound, as opposed to a scar.

I doubt his absence was anything malicious or intentional. They're clearly in their pre-show backstage rehearsal room so it's obviously an interview they agreed to do before performing later that night. It probably seemed excessive to fly Jason out just to sit in for an hour interview.

I think you're spot on, that's probably exactly the reasoning. I'm just pointing out it would have been awesome to have Jason a part of the conversation. I don't think there's any bad blood.

[Samsara]

For the record, I never said I thought Jason's absence was because I assumed there was a problem. I said it was "curious" and "strange." That was due to the fact that Jason's story was tied up with that record. The fact that they were on tour when the interview happened and were playing that night was obviously the main factor in his absence.


p.s. got my tracking update from Metallica HQ. My box won't arrive until Monday. Unreal. I buy from the band, trying to do what I think is the right thing, buying direct, and figuring no shipping issues, since I live in NorCal. Wrong. They did the label at HQ, and it is actually shipping from VIRGINIA. So not only do I not get the set today (like I would have, had I bought it on Amazon), I also paid about 40 bucks more than I would have on Amazon with free shipping because of Prime.

Nice screw job, 'Tallica. Damn. I was really looking forward to going through that whole box set this weekend.

[Samsara]

Ok, so my box set arrived. First thing I am listening to is the disc of Rough Mixes. Now, I need to A/B this and the actual remastered album, but halfway through Blackened, I am hearing bass much more audible. Admittedly, I WANT to hear more bass, and have told myself this CD is probably the closest we are going to get, so it may be completely psychosomatic.

But all that aside, I am so happy this BEHEMOTH is here. Can't wait to dig into all the goodies.

[mikeyd23]

Ok, so my box set arrived. First thing I am listening to is the disc of Rough Mixes. Now, I need to A/B this and the actual remastered album, but halfway through Blackened, I am hearing bass much more audible. Admittedly, I WANT to hear more bass, and have told myself this CD is probably the closest we are going to get, so it may be completely psychosomatic.

Oh yeah the rough mixes definitely have way more bass than the album versions. It's still not easy to pick out at times, but that shows how buried it was on the album.

[Samsara]

Ok, so my box set arrived. First thing I am listening to is the disc of Rough Mixes. Now, I need to A/B this and the actual remastered album, but halfway through Blackened, I am hearing bass much more audible. Admittedly, I WANT to hear more bass, and have told myself this CD is probably the closest we are going to get, so it may be completely psychosomatic.

Oh yeah the rough mixes definitely have way more bass than the album versions. It's still not easy to pick out at times, but that shows how buried it was on the album.

From what I have read and heard, it wasn't so much buried, in that Jason was doubling James a lot. So the separation was hard. Either way, I think the rough mixes sound fantastic.

Been working my way through the box set. I watched a couple of the DVDs on Saturday night. One was the whole concert from Shoreline Amphitheater in 1989, and the other was Lars' camcoder footage, the One video versions, and then a whole host of live songs captured. It was really cool. Bootleg-like footage, but cleaned up really well. Raw enough so it felt like Metallica - not so polished and all that. I really, really enjoyed it. Going to go through another set of DVDs this week, and I am about halfway through the book that accompanied the set. It's mostly pictures interlaced with words from a ton of people who worked with the band on stuff during that time. Fascinating recollections.

Worth every penny, and I haven't even gotten to the vinyls yet.

[Adami]

The bass was definitely buried. The engineer has said, on the record, the Lars told him to keep turning the bass down until it was barely audible.

[Samsara]

The bass was definitely buried. The engineer has said, on the record, the Lars told him to keep turning the bass down until it was barely audible.

We're not in disagreement. I have read that too. The volume of the bass was lowered, but what I am saying is that Jason's parts on Justice mirrored a lot of the rhythm guitar. So they don't stand out as much as they would have, had Jason not doubled up as much. That's how I understand it. So even in something like the rough mixes, you can hear the bass better for sure. But its doubling the rhythm guitar.

[mikeyd23]

The bass was definitely buried. The engineer has said, on the record, the Lars told him to keep turning the bass down until it was barely audible.

We're not in disagreement. I have read that too. The volume of the bass was lowered, but what I am saying is that Jason's parts on Justice mirrored a lot of the rhythm guitar. So they don't stand out as much as they would have, had Jason not doubled up as much. That's how I understand it. So even in something like the rough mixes, you can hear the bass better for sure. But its doubling the rhythm guitar.

For the most part it is doubling the guitar, but Jason, Cliff, and Rob have all doubled the guitar on different records and the bass was waaaaay more audible. This is much more about a "production choice" than an arrangement issue. Always has been.

[Samsara]

The bass was definitely buried. The engineer has said, on the record, the Lars told him to keep turning the bass down until it was barely audible.

We're not in disagreement. I have read that too. The volume of the bass was lowered, but what I am saying is that Jason's parts on Justice mirrored a lot of the rhythm guitar. So they don't stand out as much as they would have, had Jason not doubled up as much. That's how I understand it. So even in something like the rough mixes, you can hear the bass better for sure. But its doubling the rhythm guitar.

For the most part it is doubling the guitar, but Jason, Cliff, and Rob have all doubled the guitar on different records and the bass was waaaaay more audible. This is much more about a "production choice" than an arrangement issue. Always has been.

I think we have a different understanding of the word arrangement. I always take arrangement in a song to mean the structure of the song - where the bridge goes, the solo goes, substituting one verse section for another. In the case of AJFA, the bass' volume and place has nothing to do with arrangement, at least in how I understand the term from a musical perspective. "Production choice" is probably the best descriptor, as you put.

In a nutshell, I think we all agree that it is obvious that Jason's bass volume was lowered. The band has said in the final mix, they had it low, and then dropped it even lower. That's a fact. In the rough mixes, you can hear it more, because that was before the "second lowering" of the bass. It was mixed, and is mixed low, but audible. Then the final record it is inaudible.

My point on the doubling, was that I heard multiple times that Jason, particularly on Justice, had to be encouraged to get away from exactly doubling the rhythm guitar. And so I am saying, that perhaps another factor that played a role in it all, was the fact that moreso on AJFA than any other record, the bass doubled the rhythm guitar MORE, which could have contributed to less separation, and a more difficult time picking apart the bass and rhythm guitar. Not that that is the be all, end all of the story. The volume was definitely, purposefully turned way the hell down. I'm just saying that given the nature of what was played, and upon hearing the rough mixes (before the final volume lowering), there wasn't much separation between the bass and rhythm guitar (much less than what would be on the Black album, or Puppets/RTL with Cliff).

[mikeyd23]

I think we have a different understanding of the word arrangement. I always take arrangement in a song to mean the structure of the song - where the bridge goes, the solo goes, substituting one verse section for another. In the case of AJFA, the bass' volume and place has nothing to do with arrangement, at least in how I understand the term from a musical perspective. "Production choice" is probably the best descriptor, as you put.

Arrangements can also mean arranging the parts the instruments play during those sections of the song. For example - if they wrote the overall song arrangement for Blackened meaning they knew the flow - verse, chorus, bridge, solo, etc... the next step would be to drill down a bit more (if needed) and take a hard look at how the instruments are working together within those sections. Maybe the bass should match the guitar part perfectly for the verse, but for the chorus they could arrange the bass part to have a slightly different groove or selection of notes. Etc..etc... That's what I meant by arrangements. Jason definitely just matches James a lot, but my point was that Rob, Cliff, and Jason on other records did that a lot too and the bass is much more audible.

In a nutshell, I think we all agree that it is obvious that Jason's bass volume was lowered. The band has said in the final mix, they had it low, and then dropped it even lower. That's a fact. In the rough mixes, you can hear it more, because that was before the "second lowering" of the bass. It was mixed, and is mixed low, but audible. Then the final record it is inaudible.

Yup, totally agree.

My point on the doubling, was that I heard multiple times that Jason, particularly on Justice, had to be encouraged to get away from exactly doubling the rhythm guitar. And so I am saying, that perhaps another factor that played a role in it all, was the fact that moreso on AJFA than any other record, the bass doubled the rhythm guitar MORE, which could have contributed to less separation, and a more difficult time picking apart the bass and rhythm guitar. Not that that is the be all, end all of the story. The volume was definitely, purposefully turned way the hell down. I'm just saying that given the nature of what was played, and upon hearing the rough mixes (before the final volume lowering), there wasn't much separation between the bass and rhythm guitar (much less than what would be on the Black album, or Puppets/RTL with Cliff).

Yeah, James has been on record saying that he would literally turn his back to Jason in rehearsal for the songs on Justice so that Jason couldn't see his hands and just mirror what he was playing. Jason definitely mirrored a lot, and it's a factor in the lack of bass - but a much smaller factor. The larger factor was the decision to turn him down in the mixing phase.

[Samsara]

Such a shame. I know AFJA is a snapshot in time, and I loved it regardless, before knowing any of the volume stuff. But after hearing the rough mixes, and that Justice for Jason YouTube thing, man...

I think the rough mix will end up being my go-to now.

[Samsara]

I listened to the Black album in-full today for the first time in probably 20 years. I wanted to go to different Metallica, since I have been on an AJFA binge with the box set and plowing through it all.

It's weird. I mean, it is a good record, for sure. And EVERY BAND made a record like this during that 1989-1992 time period. Slicker production, more concise songs, etc. But the re-listen to the whole album just solidified the opinion that thrash bands have much less leeway in this sort of thing. It just doesn't sound like the same band - AT ALL. I mean the voice is there, sure. But the guitar tones are different, the pace is so much slower, and while it is still dark, its not at all...really angry.

I get it. Metallica was in a different space, having been a successful arena act. They were more comfortable financially for the first time in their lives. But man, while the songs are good songs, its like Metallica on pain meds. A style very much by their own design -- slower, etc. But it was such a huge disparity from the crazy thrash meets progressive from Justice, and the thrash/punk metal vibe ride from KEA through Master of Puppets.

Megadeth did it too, but Countdown wasn't AS drastic a departure from Rust in Peace. Testament did it, Death Angel did it, Anthrax did it (although they got darker in a better way, not an unrecognizable way with Persistence and then later with Bush and Sound of White Noise), etc.

But Metallica -- its like they just absolutely shifted from the angriest and most aggressive band on the planet to a hard rock band.

Kudos to them, it propelled them into legendary status (they were global stars with Justice, but the Black album put them into legendary range), but it certainly wasn't the band I was personally a fan of.

Still love a bunch of songs from the Black album, the Loads, all the way up until Hardwired. But this re-listen to the Black album, in-full, reminded me of just how much more incredible they were...before they dialed it back a notch.

p.s. down the rabbit hole I go. Listening to Load now, in-full, for the first time probably since 2003 or 2004.

[mikeyd23]

I think over time TBA has become my favorite Metallica album. It's not their best, but it's probably my favorite (if that makes sense). Over the years the strength of the songwriting won me over. Doesn't matter to me whether it's thrash or metal or hard rock, I don't really care. The songs have held up, and not just the hits Sandman, NEM, etc... songs like Holier, Wolf, Roam, God, Misery are all so great.

[Samsara]

I think over time TBA has become my favorite Metallica album. It's not their best, but it's probably my favorite (if that makes sense). Over the years the strength of the songwriting won me over. Doesn't matter to me whether it's thrash or metal or hard rock, I don't really care. The songs have held up, and not just the hits Sandman, NEM, etc... songs like Holier, Wolf, Roam, God, Misery are all so great.

I see that completely. The songwriting IS great, and that's where they really improved at their craft. And I agree, the latter part of the record really shines. Again, I don't think the Black Album is BAD (far from it). If you forced me to really evaluate Met's catalog, it probably sits fourth...behind Justice, Puppets, and Lightning. KEM would be fifth.

But its just the shock of going from Justice to Black album is really in your face. It wasn't AS bad going through BLack to Load, because even though it was another shift toward radio rock, they had already made a significant turn that way with the Black album. Whereas with Justice, some say they planted the seeds of the Black album with that, but I completely disagree. I think Justice was them showing off how completely complicated and aggressive they could be, which is LIGHT YEARS from the Black album.

There are so many parallels of Metallica's album arc to other bands, so its not a unique story in the slightest. But I guess for me, I always give thrash bands less leeway to make those changes, because if you're a thrash band, I expect you to THRASH. Eventually, Megadeth came around, and Death Angel got back to it, and Testament got even heavier. But Metallica still has never QUITE returned to the pre-BLack album sound.

I don't think Death Magnetic was that return to form some people claim it is. I think it is contrived. Its like they tried, but it wasn't organic and they forced it. Whereas I think Hardwired was much more organic and natural for them, and they put out a couple songs I think can stand proudly with Justice (Spit Out the Bone, Atlas Rise, etc.)

[mikeyd23]

I see that completely. The songwriting IS great, and that's where they really improved at their craft. And I agree, the latter part of the record really shines. Again, I don't think the Black Album is BAD (far from it). If you forced me to really evaluate Met's catalog, it probably sits fourth...behind Justice, Puppets, and Lightning. KEM would be fifth.

Yeah, objectively Ride and Master are probably better than TBA and maybe Justice (that one has more issues), but like I said, the songs and the writing have just held up.

But its just the shock of going from Justice to Black album is really in your face. It wasn't AS bad going through BLack to Load, because even though it was another shift toward radio rock, they had already made a significant turn that way with the Black album. Whereas with Justice, some say they planted the seeds of the Black album with that, but I completely disagree. I think Justice was them showing off how completely complicated and aggressive they could be, which is LIGHT YEARS from the Black album.

I get that, and it probably helps me that I didn't discover Metallica till around the St. Anger era. So I didn't have to experience any of those style changes in real time. I could just dive back into the catalog and enjoy.

I don't think Death Magnetic was that return to form some people claim it is. I think it is contrived. Its like they tried, but it wasn't organic and they forced it. Whereas I think Hardwired was much more organic and natural for them, and they put out a couple songs I think can stand proudly with Justice (Spit Out the Bone, Atlas Rise, etc.)

I think Hardwired is their best since TBA. It's got a good mix of thrash tunes, TBA style tunes, and slower rockers in the Load style.

[Grappler]

There are so many parallels of Metallica's album arc to other bands, so its not a unique story in the slightest. But I guess for me, I always give thrash bands less leeway to make those changes, because if you're a thrash band, I expect you to THRASH. Eventually, Megadeth came around, and Death Angel got back to it, and Testament got even heavier. But Metallica still has never QUITE returned to the pre-BLack album sound.

That's purely by their design.  Metallica are always moving forward creatively and never looking backward, and Justice was that turning point.  Sometimes things fail (Lulu, their movie) and sometimes it works well (the live Metallica downloads of every show), but they're always trying to do something new.

Rick Rubin was the first one to get them to try and relive their early feelings on tape with Death Magnetic, which is why it seems so contrived.  It was purposely an exercise to try and recapture the old style, yet still trying to keep the creative element moving forward.  They couldn't self-edit for shit, so the songs just went on and on.  One song was truly a cut and paste job - this section from this new song and that section from that new song.  That self editing was rectified with Hardwired and they were more concise with the song lengths.

To me, they don't see themselves as a thrash band, though they were part of the movement.  So why limit themselves from a creative standpoint and box themselves in that thrash box, when they have the money and freedom to be unlimited?  Can they write thrash, sure?  Do they want to?  Not specifically.

[axeman90210]

Not sure if this was already posted, but it's a pretty good interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMc24819DXk

I went ahead and re-ordered Live Shit on CD/DVD and I'll probably grab the digital download of the 3 disc version of the AJFA re-release.

[Samsara]

There are so many parallels of Metallica's album arc to other bands, so its not a unique story in the slightest. But I guess for me, I always give thrash bands less leeway to make those changes, because if you're a thrash band, I expect you to THRASH. Eventually, Megadeth came around, and Death Angel got back to it, and Testament got even heavier. But Metallica still has never QUITE returned to the pre-BLack album sound.

That's purely by their design.  Metallica are always moving forward creatively and never looking backward, and Justice was that turning point.  Sometimes things fail (Lulu, their movie) and sometimes it works well (the live Metallica downloads of every show), but they're always trying to do something new.

Rick Rubin was the first one to get them to try and relive their early feelings on tape with Death Magnetic, which is why it seems so contrived.  It was purposely an exercise to try and recapture the old style, yet still trying to keep the creative element moving forward.  They couldn't self-edit for shit, so the songs just went on and on.  One song was truly a cut and paste job - this section from this new song and that section from that new song.  That self editing was rectified with Hardwired and they were more concise with the song lengths.

To me, they don't see themselves as a thrash band, though they were part of the movement.  So why limit themselves from a creative standpoint and box themselves in that thrash box, when they have the money and freedom to be unlimited?  Can they write thrash, sure?  Do they want to?  Not specifically.

Grapp, I understand, but all bands say that -- that they are moving forward creatively. The thing is, all bands also get to a point where they deviate from what they are good at, and then stumble and find their way back to the "pocket" for lack of a better term. The fact they don't want to write in a thrash metal style, specifically, is fine. But quite honestly, that is what they are best at. If I want to hear a mid-tempo, grungy song, I'll look at Soundgarden or Alice in Chains, who are better than Metallica. If I want to hear a slow ballad, there's plenty of bands that are superior to Metallica on that. But if I want this technical thrash fest, well, to me, that screams Metallica, because very few do it as well as them.

I am all for experimentation and growth. But when you get too out of the pocket, and think you're better than you really are with whatever you are experimenting with, it helps to get back to what you are good at, and reset who you are. Metallica, at least to my ears, has never quite done that, and as a result, the ride with them has been severely unrewarding over the last 25 years. There are bits that keep getting me back on the train for a quick ride or two (for example, Atlas Rise, Spit Out the Bone). But when you're only liking one or two songs per record, instead of liking almost an entire record, it is what it is.