Check up on the ADToE/I&W-Conspiracy

[BlackInk]

I had forgotten about it for a long time, but has crossed my mind several times a day lately, since I began to revisit ADToE for the first time in a while. So I just wanted to see what the 'public opinion' is on this whole mirroring-song-structure-thing is these days.

I still believe that it's real. Some are less obvious than others, but then there is songs like Lost Not Forgotten, which is down to the last detail structured like Under a Glass Moon. So I'm an official believer.

So what about you guys? Believe? Don't believe? Is it commonly accepted or discarded these days? Do people even remember it?

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I get that some of them are structurally similar. Some of them just really aren't.

I don't understand why any of it matters.

[Madman Shepherd]

Even if the songs were a fraction of structural copies as some people suggest, how could anyone think that DT actually sat around and had a conversation like:

JP: Ok, my homies.  At what point in our career were we the most successful?

JM: Fuckin' I&W bitches! 

JP: Exactly!  So how are we going to recreate that success?

JLB: Get David Prater back?!?!

JP:  No, better!

JR: Rerecord I&W with me on keyboards and MM on drums?

JP: Even better!

JM: Copy the formula of all of the songs, but in such a subtle way that there will be no general consensus that we actually did copy the formula and then add a completely new flavor of riffs, rhythms, lyrics, and melodies leading only obsessive people like our esteemed former drummer to speculate that we are desperately trying to secretly rewrite our past.

JP: Bingo! 


I can see a very, very vague similarity in the structure of Lost Not Forgotten, ya know, guitar opening, staccato riff that matches the bass drum, but that is IT. 

[Grizz]

Lost Not Forgotten is a blatantly inferior version of Under a Glass Moon.

[The Letter M]

I came here expecting a poll but was disappointed when I couldn't vote for "Kevin Moore".

In all reality, I'd have voted for "I believe it just as much as I used to" in that I see the similarities, but it doesn't bother me much to the point that it ruins my enjoyment of a great album. And even in the year since DT12 came out, I still spun ADTOE just as much as their new album, so no conspiracy theory was going to taint my love for the band's first album with Mangini.

-Marc.

[efx]

It doesn't bother me one bit but it's definitely there for some of the songs.

[jammindude]

Digging into your own past reflectively for "inspiration corner" is not necessarily a bad place from which to start a new journey.

I'm reminded of the movie High Fidelity...which reflects the human tendency to look back at what made you into the person you are when faced with a traumatic point in your life, before proceeding forward to the next phase. 

[Skeever]

It doesn't bother me one bit but it's definitely there for some of the songs.

[RoeDent]

It shouldn't bother anyone, because many great songs share the same structure. Even with DT, many songs follow the basic verse-chorus structure, just with a long instrumental break in the middle (which effectively counts as one section, even if it is a complex section).

[TheGreatPretender]

There are definitely similarities, and I noticed them right away, but I call coincidence. I mean, it's not like they're by two different bands. We've had these similar structures in other songs DT has done. It's just that on this album, there are similarities to PMU, UAGM, and the whole WFS+LTL combo. So that's 4 out of 8 songs on I&W that have a very similar structure or style. But I'd say there's no clear cut "Metropolis," or "TTT" or "Surrounded" or "Another Day" on ADTOE.

[TheCountOfNYC]

OtBoA and PMU, LNF and UaGM, Outcry and Metropolis, and BAI and LtL are the only obvious ones.

[Randaran]

There are definitely similarities, and I noticed them right away, but I call coincidence. I mean, it's not like they're by two different bands. We've had these similar structures in other songs DT has done. It's just that on this album, there are similarities to PMU, UAGM, and the whole WFS+LTL combo. So that's 4 out of 8 songs on I&W that have a very similar structure or style. But I'd say there's no clear cut "Metropolis," or "TTT" or "Surrounded" or "Another Day" on ADTOE.

Outcry is structurally analagous to Metropolis

Edit: Had not yet read the comment after yours. 

[Evermind]

Well, I definitely hear some similarities, like PMU - OTBOA, WFS + LTL - FFH + BAI, but all these songs are so good I don't really care. The one that bothers me a lot is LNF, being too similar to UAGM and quite uninspired actually.

I don't really see any similarities between Outcry and Metropolis. I mean, there might be similarities, but Outcry is mediocre, and Metropolis kicks ass, so I don't know, I think they're different enough.

[Randaran]

I don't really see any similarities between Outcry and Metropolis. I mean, there might be similarities, but Outcry is mediocre, and Metropolis kicks ass, so I don't know, I think they're different enough.

They follow the same structure. Intro > Full Band Entrance > Heavy Verse > Quiet Verse > Chorus > Heavy Verse > Instrumental Section > Clean Bridge > Chorus > Outro

And Outcry is better than Metropolis.

[Zook]

OtBoA and PMU, LNF and UaGM, Outcry and Metropolis, and BAI and LtL are the only obvious ones.

This, but Outcry features a chorus, which Metropolis does not.

I don't really see any similarities between Outcry and Metropolis. I mean, there might be similarities, but Outcry is mediocre, and Metropolis kicks ass, so I don't know, I think they're different enough.

And Outcry is better than Metropolis.

It shouldn't bother anyone, because many great songs share the same structure. Even with DT, many songs follow the basic verse-chorus structure, just with a long instrumental break in the middle (which effectively counts as one section, even if it is a complex section).

Yes, that's true. Endless Sacrifice, Sacrificed Sons,and The Ministry of Lost Souls all follow almost the exact formula (softer ballady type song with heavy as fuck instrumental section) but that still doesn't bother me as much and Lost Not Forgotten, and to a lesser extend On The Backs of Angels, but with that song, it's just boring.

[seasonsinthesky]

OtBoA and PMU, LNF and UaGM, Outcry and Metropolis, and BAI and LtL are the only obvious ones.

[Evermind]

I don't really see any similarities between Outcry and Metropolis. I mean, there might be similarities, but Outcry is mediocre, and Metropolis kicks ass, so I don't know, I think they're different enough.

They follow the same structure. Intro > Full Band Entrance > Heavy Verse > Quiet Verse > Chorus > Heavy Verse > Instrumental Section > Clean Bridge > Chorus > Outro

And Outcry is better than Metropolis.

I agree about structure, but can't agree about your last statement. The thing is, previous winter, before DT concert I used to put their albums on my phone player when I was on the road back home from work. I'm using the suburban trains because I'm working out of town in a nearby area, and the whole ride lasts like an hour or so, perfect for listening to DT. Now, I'm getting up at 5 a.m. to get to the office in time, so the only thing that keeps me awake on the road is the music, and damn, the wish to sleep is often overwhelming.

The thing is, I've never fallen asleep during I&W, and I'm literally always falling asleep during instrumental break in Outcry. This song might be a lullaby alright, but for me it's definitely not better or interesting than Metropolis. Thankfully LNF is almost in the beginning of ADTOE, or it would be even worse.

[TheGreatPretender]

They follow the same structure. Intro > Full Band Entrance > Heavy Verse > Quiet Verse > Chorus > Heavy Verse > Instrumental Section > Clean Bridge > Chorus > Outro

And Outcry is better than Metropolis.

See, but that's not really the structure of Metropolis. The one big key factor is that Metropolis doesn't have a chorus. In fact, there's not a single stanza in the whole song that repeats, which is one of the coolest features of Metropolis, and something even DT doesn't do very often.

So yeah, calling it the same structure is really reaching, if you ask me.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

guys guys

i just noticed this













forsaken and rite of passage both have a chorus! basically the same song omg

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, but Forsaken starts with a Piano melody... Much like Space-Dye Vest! They're the same song!

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

 

But seriously who cares if the structure is the same? The songs themselves sound basically nothing alike.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah I agree, but... It's not even the same! Metropolis does not have a repeating chorus! 

[Kotowboy]

Thought this was stupid then.






Think it's stupid now.

[BlobVanDam]

Lost Not Forgotten is a blatantly inferior version of Under a Glass Moon.

Aside from this (which is certainly subconscious and accidental at best), most of the comparison is forced BS. OTBOA does give off a PMU vibe with its structure, but the songs themselves sound nothing alike. Beyond that, someone was just making up similarities to fit with this silly theory they had.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

They follow the same structure. Intro > Full Band Entrance > Heavy Verse > Quiet Verse > Chorus > Heavy Verse > Instrumental Section > Clean Bridge > Chorus > Outro

Thing is, Metropolis doesn't evn have a chorus, nor any repeating stanzas, as already pointed out. At this point, it's really grasping at straws and really forcing the similarities out of things that aren't there. Hearing a song like LNF, sure you can definitely hear it, and it doesn't surprise me that fans heard it before even being told of this whole theory, but even as I listen to Outcry with this knowledge, I really have to force it to hear these vague similarities.

And Outcry is better than Metropolis.

Not by a long shot.

[Randaran]

If the big discrepancy is the fact that Outcry has a repeating chorus while Metropolis does not, then the same thing applies to OTBOA and PMU. PMU has a chorus A and a chorus B, and the final chorus plays one after the other, while OTBOA only has one chorus. This does not change the fact that they are otherwise structurally similar. With Outcry and Metropolis, the most important parts are the dual verses, the second of which is clean, and the single verse between the sole "chorus" and the instrumental section. I cannot think of a single DT song other than these two that shares this structure. And even then, it does not change the fact that both kick ass, though to degrees that vary from the common opinion on here. 

[TheGreatPretender]

If the big discrepancy is the fact that Outcry has a repeating chorus while Metropolis does not, then the same thing applies to OTBOA and PMU. PMU has a chorus A and a chorus B, and the final chorus plays one after the other, while OTBOA only has one chorus. This does not change the fact that they are otherwise structurally similar. With Outcry and Metropolis, the most important parts are the dual verses, the second of which is clean, and the single verse between the sole "chorus" and the instrumental section. I cannot think of a single DT song other than these two that shares this structure. And even then, it does not change the fact that both kick ass, though to degrees that vary from the common opinion on here. 

Honestly, the only real similarity between PMU and OTBOA that I hear is the overall tone of the song. They're both heavy, but not aggressive, and were the first on their albums, and lead singles. You're right, structurally they're not the same. And even the instrumental breakdown in the two is vastly different.

It's not even that Metropolis doesn't have a repeating chorus, it's that it doesn't have a repeating rhythmic or melodic passage at all. Even the "verses" on it all have vastly different structures and melodies from one another.
Whereas on Outrcy, not only is there a repeating chorus, but there are verses that share the same melodic theme, such as "the rebel in us all...the cost us buried in the ground" verse has an identical structure to "the streets are bathed in blood...though you may stand upon my grave" verse. So if you want to break down the structure of Outcry it's like this:

Intro>Verse A>Verse B>Verse C>Chorus>Verse A>Verse C>Instrumental>Bridge>Chorus>Chorus>Outro Verse

With Metropolis, I honestly can't describe it in any other way than this:

Intro>Verse A>Verse B>Verse C>Instrumental>Outro Verse

And usually, I don't even bother breaking down the beginning of Metropolis into Verse A B and C, really, it's all one long verse to me.

[King Postwhore]

DT recorded both album in Area 51.





You're all nuts.

[Setlist Scotty]

There are definitely similarities, and I noticed them right away, but I call coincidence.

One song, or maybe two at most would be a coincidence. But when you have 5 songs that clearly correspond to each other, there's no coincidence - it was purposefully planned that way.

It's blatantly obvious that they used the structural arrangements from several songs, kinda like doing their own version of the 2003 Stream of Consciousness contest. While there might be some minor differences to some of them, it's pretty clear where the structures of the songs come from.

[jammindude]

There are definitely similarities, and I noticed them right away, but I call coincidence.

One song, or maybe two at most would be a coincidence. But when you have 5 songs that clearly correspond to each other, there's no coincidence - it was purposefully planned that way.

It's blatantly obvious that they used the structural arrangements from several songs, kinda like doing their own version of the 2003 Stream of Consciousness contest. While there might be some minor differences to some of them, it's pretty clear where the structures of the songs come from.

I actually find it interesting that some people so adamantly deny it....because I don't necessarily view it as a bad thing.   As I said, it's pretty obvious that they looked to their original "spark" as the inspiration corner for a new era...which to me is a perfectly natural thing.    It's not a direct copy, it is a re-visit, and a bit of a homage.    I thought it was very well done, and a way to wink at the past while looking forward to a new future.   

[TheGreatPretender]

One song, or maybe two at most would be a coincidence. But when you have 5 songs that clearly correspond to each other, there's no coincidence - it was purposefully planned that way.

It's blatantly obvious that they used the structural arrangements from several songs, kinda like doing their own version of the 2003 Stream of Consciousness contest. While there might be some minor differences to some of them, it's pretty clear where the structures of the songs come from.

You can beat it over my head all you want, but comparing Outcry to Metropolis, aside from being longer songs, with an excellent showcase of musicianship and sitting near the middle of the album, I see no similarities, so I wouldn't say there's 4 songs to compare there.

And like it was mentioned, even OTBOA doesn't clearly correspond to PMU structure wise. There are some vague similarities, but I can say the same thing about PMU, OTBOA as well as A Rite of Passage and As I Am.

Honestly, I wouldn't even mind if Metropolis corresponded to Outcry, because I think DT could benefit from more long songs that have absolutely no recurring lyrics or vocal themes.

[BlobVanDam]

I actually find it interesting that some people so adamantly deny it....because I don't necessarily view it as a bad thing.   

Whether or not it is a bad thing has nothing to do with whether or not there are actual similarities. I deny it because it's largely trying to find similarities where none exist to fit a theory. A lot of these supposedly similar structures have to be classified so vaguely to work that it loses any meaning. You could analyze many DT songs and they'd be every bit as similar, but people wanted to make this theory work.

I think LNF sounds a lot like UAGM musically, noticed it instantly, but I don't think it was any part of a grand plan to mimic IaW, because none of it would be conducive to better music anyway. Someone noticed one or two very surface level comparisons between IaW and ADTOE, then forced some square pegs into some round holes, and some people chose to latch onto it and perpetuate this idea that ADTOE had some grand plan behind it to copy elements of IaW. It's quite silly imo, and I can't believe anyone still believes it after all this time.

[bl5150]

I agree with Blob ....now there's a problem 

There's really only one that stood out to me (LNF/UAGM) .  Aside from that there was a noticeable return (in very general terms) to writing more melodic songs that were IMO closer to I&W in that department than anything since.  And my response to that was "fuck yeah!!"

[erwinrafael]

LNF and UAGM are the only ones that stood out to me. That one is structurally similar in so many ways even to the small structural details in how the chorus and the instrumentals are constructed.

[RaiseTheKnife]

I think the people that deny the structural similarities are not aware how awesome the concept was.  Admit it, embrace it and love it.