Author Topic: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?  (Read 21058 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 3770
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #175 on: November 04, 2014, 11:07:15 AM »
My convictions (that I hope have had a visual impact on my life) are based on God speaking to me in three ways:
1.  The creation (it blows my mind).  Similar to Coz looking out his window
2.  The Word (since there is the accusation of "bootstrapping" I won't give my many reasons why)
3.  The transformed lives (just watched a movie last night about the Mob Boss Michael Franceze and his conversion story).

Though I cannot see Him, I have heard Him speak loud and clear enough for me to change my path.

I envy your convictions, I really do.  It must feel fulfilling, and that is a feeling I would like to have....if it were real.
I do not feel it is real, so I would only be fooling myself.
If there is a god, and it truly wants a relationship with me, it is welcome to call me.  I feel that god being a, well being a GOD, kind of has the onus on it when it comes to contact.  An all knowing omnipotent being has an infinite more effective ways to communicate his existence and plan than has been done.  I just personally dont buy it...but even more importantly, I CANT buy it.  My heart, intellect, and every fiber of my being is just not able to take the leap honestly.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Back for the Attack
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 41803
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #176 on: November 04, 2014, 11:07:55 AM »
I think there is some of it in the wife-chasing as well.  :tup
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

  • Official Forum Sous Chef and broler5
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13820
  • Gender: Male
  • whahibrido pickingant in action...
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #177 on: November 04, 2014, 11:09:10 AM »
Hell.  Yes.  :tup

Offline yeshaberto

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8976
  • Gender: Male
  • Somebody Get Me A Doctor! - VH
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #178 on: November 04, 2014, 11:12:00 AM »
 :lol 
my wife has been jogging lately everyday, making it more and more difficult to catch up with her  >:(

eric, I have even greater respect for you.  it really gets back to the heart of this thread:  you believe what you do because you believe what you do.

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 3770
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #179 on: November 04, 2014, 11:20:38 AM »
eric, I have even greater respect for you.  it really gets back to the heart of this thread:  you believe what you do because you believe what you do.

Thanks Yesh.  Some may pre judge me when I disagree with their religious views, but they may not know that I actually envy them to varying degrees.  I am sure that a real true belief in god comes with a feeling of closeness with the creator, and a fulfillment of purpose.  I have even asked, in several ways at different times, to have some sort of sign or contact, so that I might start that relationship.  I need it as all the evidence I see is either unconvincing to me, or seems like it is lacking the all important belief  component that I am missing.  I absolutely cant will myself to feel it, nor can I take the leap of faith.....because it would be a lie, and I would only be fooling myself.  I must stay true to who I am, and I respect all others that do that as well.

Im not even talking about being a christian either...just a relationship with god.  Im not a fan of the religions, and feel that the biggest factor in play for a persons religion is more geographic than anything.


EDIT:
I was asked in PM, if I have ever read "insert religious text".  My response might help if shared here.

I think that there is an emotional belief that needs to exist before I would ever use religious texts.  Without that innate belief that there is a god, and that there is a path to follow, the religious texts are merely stories (some do have value as teaching) written by man, and not inspired words of god.  I simply cant use these texts to convince myself there is a god...it simply wont compute without that emotional experience that I feel is an integral component.  I would also need that emotional component direct me to the appropriate text, as studying them all seems to be a monumental waste of time, and moot, to determine which is correct.
My belief is that a text should not be necessary when dealing with a supreme being, especially when we can see so many varying texts, with so many messages....and even the differing interpretations of the same text.  Is simply makes no sense to me, especially with no inspiration.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 11:34:44 AM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Back for the Attack
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 41803
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #180 on: November 04, 2014, 11:30:26 AM »
I respect you as well, eric.  There are many things that many Christians hold fast to in belief, that I just can't.  So I get that part, and I get refusing to go along with it.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 3770
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #181 on: November 04, 2014, 11:51:15 AM »
OK, now I have the respect of TWO mods in PR.  If I can get Bosks respect, I will consider that a hat trick!

But another thing I would like to share:

About 5 years ago, I was having difficulty sleeping, and felt sad a lot.  Tons going on in my personal and professional life, including issues with finances and our home.
I woke up every morning with what I can only describe as an empty feeling.  It went on for months, and I couldnt shake it.  I ended up connecting with an old girlfriend, and she told me about how she had found Jesus and God, and how it had all changed her life.  I thought to myself...wow...could this be the moment in my life where I become a believer??  I was actually excited at the prospect of feeling better, closer to god, with a purpose, etc.
Well, I decided to call my Priest.  Well actually my wife's family's priest.  He is very intelligent, insightful, great sense of humor, and I always got the feeling like he really cared.  He married my wife and I at the Epicopalian church she grew up in.  Very close to my wifes family.
I talked with him about myself, my lack of religion, my recent feelings, and my question of if this was god knocking on the door.
He said, "it sounds more like depression."  I was taken aback, not by his diagnosis, but that he would go there instead of adding another to the flock.  It hit me like a ton of bricks.  I was depressed.  I took care of that, and he was right.  But on to the larger point:
I said I had thought about starting a relationship with god, but just plain did not agree with most of what the texts say about "membershgip" so to speak...especially as I was raised roman catholic!  LOL.
He said that EVERYONE in his church does not believe and follow every single little rule...no one is perfect.  HE said that the important thing is to have a relationship with god.  Church, texts, rituals, are all unimportant when next to the importance of just having a relationship.  Every relationship is different he said.  I had just not started mine yet.
So I feel that I am open to a relationship.  I also feel that I cant MAKE it happen.  Reading old texts wont make it happen.  Wanting it wont make it happen.  It will just happen.  I personally feel that it may already be happening.  I feel that my version of a god does not require obedience or ritual.....he does not require constant contact or intervention....he does not require acts to show faith or love or belief.  Maybe god has already spoken to me and it has manifested itself in what I truly believe in my heart:  That I should live my life in a way that my heart tells me is a good way.  Be nice to people, and love.  Enjoy the life I have as it is short and finite.  Maybe that is my relationship I am supposed to have.  I dont have to fake it, and it reconciles with all my other sensibilities.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 12:15:11 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline Podaar

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 7891
  • Gender: Male
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #182 on: November 04, 2014, 12:04:07 PM »
Wow, I have tons of respect for your priest. I've never met a member of the clergy that a) had the training necessary to diagnose such a condition and b) the honesty to not take undue advantage.

Eric, I understand your feelings somewhat and I too went through a period of life-inadequacy (if that's even the feeling you're trying to express. It's pretty accurate for what I was going through).

All I can say is, never sell yourself short. As arbitrator of your own life and mind, you just may be the only god you'll ever need to have a relationship with.
“I have always found it quaint, and rather touching, that there is a movement in the U.S. that thinks Americans are not yet selfish enough.” — Christopher Hitchens

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 3770
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #183 on: November 04, 2014, 12:10:36 PM »
Wow, I have tons of respect for your priest. I've never met a member of the clergy that a) had the training necessary to diagnose such a condition and b) the honesty to not take undue advantage.

Eric, I understand your feelings somewhat and I too went through a period of life-inadequacy (if that's even the feeling you're trying to express. It's pretty accurate for what I was going through).

All I can say is, never sell yourself short. As arbitrator of your own life and mind, you just may be the only god you'll ever need to have a relationship with.

Oh I feel quite comfortable with my life now.  If there is a god, and he has a path for me, then I am on it.  I have asked for some sign or guidance, but have received no directions to change.  I live my life how my mind and heart say I should....and absent of any other input, I have come to two conclusions:
1) I am on my own (no god), or 2) that is the path god has for me. 
If he made me this way, then I am on the path I am supposed to be on, and I am OK with that.  If I am not on the path, then he needs to speak the fuck up, as I am flying blind here brother!  And no, I wont start reading religious texts for direction when the author himself can tell me personally without any chance in misinterpretation.  So I will continue living my life as my inner heart tells me to, and I will wait for further instruction if there is any.
:)
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Back for the Attack
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 41803
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #184 on: November 04, 2014, 12:13:22 PM »
I agree with your priest.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 3770
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #185 on: November 04, 2014, 12:23:08 PM »
I agree with your priest.

He may not have taken the opportunity to turn me into a god fearin', bible thumpin', church goin', wafer eatin', christian.  Which he knew would have been a sham.  What he did do was just encourage the relationship, however small, over no relationship at all.  Perhaps he opened my eyes to the "truth" for me.  That I DO have a relationship with god, and that he speaks to me through what I feel and think everyday.  To do what the heart and mind he gave me says to do.  To live my life well, and be good.  Period.  Thats it.  No bible, no church.  Not saying that is what I really believe yet, but it does not conflict with me in anyway.  And he opened my eyes to that direction for me.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline Ħ

  • Posts: 3247
  • Gender: Male
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #186 on: November 04, 2014, 06:48:40 PM »
Eric stole the thread. :lol

Even though we hold opposing views, I definitely respect you, Eric, whatever this punk kid's respect is worth. You follow what you think to be right, not what you wish is so. You wrestle with these deeply important questions rather than simply dismiss them as petty or unimportant. Hats off to you.  :hefdaddy
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 10321
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #187 on: November 04, 2014, 07:17:09 PM »
I don't know these things because *I* have any special knowledge, I just learned from God by getting to know his answers in his word. 

What about all the other people who have gotten to know his answers and come to conclusions that contradict your own?

You always mention that you have done a lot of research, but there are a lot of people in this world who have done a lot of research.  There are a lot of people in this world who attempt to allow scripture to interpret scripture.  There are a lot of people in this world who have dedicated their entire lives to studying the Bible, and many of those people would disagree with you on many points.  How do you account for that?  Are those people just doing it wrong?

Well...the short version....yes.

My study essentially started with The Bible's claim to be the infallible word of God.   So I began from a neutral stand.  Understanding that there would be arguments on both sides of the issue with axes to grind.     Even most theology classes BEGIN on the assumption that it is man's word...not God's.   This is beginning the journey with bias.   But I found extremists and literalists on the God side of things as well...so I didn't want to start their either.    From this neutral standpoint, I just wanted to see if the arguments held water from within.   Then compare with evidence for criticisms...and the evidence for the extremists and literalists.     The Bible held up under its own arguments, and the arguments of both critics and literalists simply seemed to lack a balanced approach...always putting a personal spin (either for what will shore up their personal beliefs in the case of literalists, or sowing in contradiction that isn't there in the case of critics)     The deeper I look into the scriptures, the more the internal harmony comes to light.   Concentrating on what The Bible is teaching rather than what a man says that it teaches cuts through quite a bit of garbage.    It's unbelievable what some "teachers" claim that the Bible says when it doesn't.     The things that religious people say it teaches when it doesn't.   It's unbelievable what critics claim that it teaches when it doesn't.      Of course, there are people who know better...they are the most reprehensible.   Those are the ones that KNOW that what they are teaching isn't in the Bible...but they have a score of excuses.   "I get paid to teach this."   "This is what people want to hear."   "If I told people what it really said, they'd throw me out."    I've heard all these excuses...and heard of even more.    Sad really...   
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 3770
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #188 on: November 04, 2014, 07:32:36 PM »
Eric stole the thread. :lol

Even though we hold opposing views, I definitely respect you, Eric, whatever this punk kid's respect is worth. You follow what you think to be right, not what you wish is so. You wrestle with these deeply important questions rather than simply dismiss them as petty or unimportant. Hats off to you.  :hefdaddy

Thank you sir.   :metal
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Online Zook

  • Evil Incarnate
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13507
  • Gender: Male
  • Take My Hand
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #189 on: November 04, 2014, 07:44:20 PM »
I don't know these things because *I* have any special knowledge, I just learned from God by getting to know his answers in his word. 

What about all the other people who have gotten to know his answers and come to conclusions that contradict your own?

You always mention that you have done a lot of research, but there are a lot of people in this world who have done a lot of research.  There are a lot of people in this world who attempt to allow scripture to interpret scripture.  There are a lot of people in this world who have dedicated their entire lives to studying the Bible, and many of those people would disagree with you on many points.  How do you account for that?  Are those people just doing it wrong?

Well...the short version....yes.

My study essentially started with The Bible's claim to be the infallible word of God.   So I began from a neutral stand.  Understanding that there would be arguments on both sides of the issue with axes to grind.     Even most theology classes BEGIN on the assumption that it is man's word...not God's.   This is beginning the journey with bias.   But I found extremists and literalists on the God side of things as well...so I didn't want to start their either.    From this neutral standpoint, I just wanted to see if the arguments held water from within.   Then compare with evidence for criticisms...and the evidence for the extremists and literalists.     The Bible held up under its own arguments, and the arguments of both critics and literalists simply seemed to lack a balanced approach...always putting a personal spin (either for what will shore up their personal beliefs in the case of literalists, or sowing in contradiction that isn't there in the case of critics)     The deeper I look into the scriptures, the more the internal harmony comes to light.   Concentrating on what The Bible is teaching rather than what a man says that it teaches cuts through quite a bit of garbage.    It's unbelievable what some "teachers" claim that the Bible says when it doesn't.     The things that religious people say it teaches when it doesn't.   It's unbelievable what critics claim that it teaches when it doesn't.      Of course, there are people who know better...they are the most reprehensible.   Those are the ones that KNOW that what they are teaching isn't in the Bible...but they have a score of excuses.   "I get paid to teach this."   "This is what people want to hear."   "If I told people what it really said, they'd throw me out."    I've heard all these excuses...and heard of even more.    Sad really...   

So what is you opinion on God condoning racism, bigotry and the owning of slaves? Oh, and mass murder, including children and the raping of women?

Offline j

  • Posts: 2794
  • Gender: Male
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #190 on: November 04, 2014, 08:19:44 PM »
I have no concerns about contradicting me.     My only concern is whether or not it contradicts scripture.   The Bible's message unifies....those who contradict God's Word are splintered.

"By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”  (John 13:35)

So Jesus said that only those who displayed love amongst themselves would be his true disciples.   

Despite the fact that responding to these inquiries with the cutting and pasting of bible passages suggests that you're kind of missing the point, even this first thing you quoted and then interpreted happens to be an example of what you just got through condemning.  Read the quote, then read your interpretation.  Those two things are not the same.

And again, no Christian thinks he's "contradicting God's word" (nor would most ever think to consider it).  Your example of a priest saying "I get paid to teach this" is the big-time outlier; not representative of the majority of Christians with whom you disagree.  Who then is the target audience of a statement like that?

Quote
The problem is that what has been commonly accepted as "Christianity" has been a deviation since it began contradicting scripture....most likely from the moment the Apostle John died.

This is always a baffling notion to me.  The many manifestations of Christianity that have been around for 2k years are all horribly deviant, but thank the lord the 20th century finally saw it restored with the establishment of [person's name here]'s church.  Next you're going to tell me that actually those true believers who believe exactly what [person] does were there all along over the centuries, lurking deep in the shadows so as not to be found in documented history. ;)

Quote
"...you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."  (1 Cor 1:10)   

So those who are truly following scripture would be united...not contradicting each other...having no disagreement among themselves.    If you find that group, you have found the only group that is following scripture.   If they have disagreements among themselves, then they aren't following scripture.

So people who believe the right things will agree with each other.  That means people who don't believe the right things will disagree.  But among others, they'll disagree with those who believe the right things.  Which means the people who believe the right things would be in disagreement with them, suggesting that they must not believe the right things after all!  I'm having trouble thinking of a way to say less using more words (although some of my posts probably achieve that).

This isn't meant as a personal slight, but you've said nothing with this post.  You told me what the bible says: love thy neighbor, don't bicker, don't go to war with each other, etc.  Everyone in the universe knows those things, and that the bible says them.  You are now exactly at equal footing with every other Christian group claiming to follow the bible.  And no more than that.

Honestly I know I shouldn't even respond.  But you seem to have an interest in demonstrating that your beliefs are intellectually robust, and yet your conclusions most often don't follow from their premises.

-J

Offline j

  • Posts: 2794
  • Gender: Male
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #191 on: November 04, 2014, 08:46:43 PM »
My study essentially started with The Bible's claim to be the infallible word of God.

Does the bible actually claim that?  If so, which books does it include in that claim?  Did God write it, or is it God's literal words spoken to men to transcribe, or is it God's ideas conveyed to man who then put them into words, or something else?

The details of your research I'll leave to you, but surely you acknowledge that you were still biased despite your professed attempts to minimize it?

Quote
Concentrating on what The Bible is teaching rather than what a man says that it teaches cuts through quite a bit of garbage.    It's unbelievable what some "teachers" claim that the Bible says when it doesn't.     The things that religious people say it teaches when it doesn't.   It's unbelievable what critics claim that it teaches when it doesn't.

Stop it with this! :lol  You are a man, telling us what the bible teaches.  Why are you exempt?  If I read the bible on my own in a vacuum, disregarding what anyone else has told me about it, and still reach different conclusions than you, how would you know whose were "what the bible is REALLY teaching"?

I won't question the integrity with which you conducted your investigation into the bible's authenticity and accuracy.  But like others have implied, your current level of unwavering certainty in the face of any and everything makes it sort of a hard sell that you were ever that genuinely open minded.

-J

Offline Jaffa

  • Just Jaffa
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Gender: Male
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #192 on: November 04, 2014, 09:33:06 PM »
Heads up everybody, long post coming.

Well...the short version....yes. 

Well, this is where you lose me.  Because whether you like it or not, you actually are putting yourself on a pedestal.  Yes, you have great confidence in God and the Bible, but you also have great confidence in your own ability to understand God and the Bible.  You are so absolutely certain of your understanding, in fact, that you are apparently willing to assert that anybody who disagrees with you is (short version) just wrong.  That's quite a bit of confidence you have in yourself.

I mean, Hef has read the Bible, too.  Hef has done his research.  And in doing that research, he has come to different conclusions than you.  If you really have an open mind, I think you should be open to the idea that he might be right and you might be wrong.  Otherwise, it seems to me that you are making some kind of claim to superiority - maybe your research was more thorough than his was, or maybe you're just more intelligent than he is.  Don't get me wrong, I know you haven't actually claimed to be more intelligent or more thorough, but I just don't see any other way for you to justify placing so much trust in your interpretation over his.


As always, I like weird metaphors, so let me remove the Bible from the equation for a moment and talk about a movie instead.  I don't want to say which movie quite yet, but it's one of my favorite movies of all time, and one of the reasons I enjoy it so much is that it really makes me think.  It's a very complex movie with many different layers and levels, so it really keeps me on my toes.  It keeps my brain working, because there's just so much to consider.  I really enjoyed trying to figure it out, especially near the end.  It has a very ambiguous ending that leaves a lot of room for interpretation, and I had a lot of fun coming up with my own guess as to what had actually happened.  In the end, I came up with a theory that I feel pretty good about.

So, here's the question: should I trust that my interpretation of the ending matches the intentions of the people who made the movie?  I mean, I've seen the movie about a billion times.  I've watched parts of it again and again in an effort to notice every detail and figure everything out.  I've also read loads of interviews with the people who made the movie, and though they have been cryptic, I honestly feel that I might be right.  I've certainly done my research, after all.

The problem is, the movie is Inception, and there are dozens of interpretations of that ending.  People literally have debates trying to figure out whether or not Cobb was dreaming at the end of that movie.  There are a ton of arguments you can read online.  There have been essays written on the subject, by people who have seen the movie just as many times as I have. 

Now, I maintain that I've got a pretty good theory.  But it's one theory among many.  For me to assert that my interpretation is the correct one, I would have to imply that everybody who disagrees with me is wrong.  And it may very well be that I am right and everybody who has a different theory is wrong.  But I don't have enough confidence in my own perception to make that claim.  We've all seen the same movie, so we're all pretty much on equal footing; I could be wrong just as easily as they could.


And as far as I'm concerned, you could be wrong just as easily as Hef could.  But you are certain that you are right, because you have that much confidence in yourself and your comprehension skills. 

And there's really nothing wrong with that, I guess, since your personal beliefs are basically harmless.  But I hope you understand that it does sometimes make it difficult to have any meaningful conversation with you.  It's tricky to have a debate when one side's fundamental position is that the other side is definitively wrong. 


Alas, I'm veering off topic, and I apologize.  Perhaps this is something that would be better suited to a PM.  But it's something I've been meaning to bring up for a long time, and I do think it speaks to a general discussion about belief.  Does belief in an idea really require dismissal of other ideas?  Because, if so, I would answer this topic by saying that I don't believe in much of anything, and I really don't want to. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 10321
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #193 on: November 04, 2014, 11:16:48 PM »
I should've put a small  ;) next to that yes.   I was attempting to be a bit facetious.   

I'm not actually proud...but sometimes if I think the proud answer sounds humorous, I will say it...just because I think it's funny.    Again...I come across much better in person.    I'll respond to the rest later.   
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline yeshaberto

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8976
  • Gender: Male
  • Somebody Get Me A Doctor! - VH
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #194 on: November 05, 2014, 12:27:40 AM »
JD, you are a great example of how to respond to critique and disagreement.

Offline Jaffa

  • Just Jaffa
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Gender: Male
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #195 on: November 05, 2014, 12:37:26 AM »
I should've put a small  ;) next to that yes.   I was attempting to be a bit facetious.   

Fair enough.  I apologize if my wall of text was unwarranted, then.  :)

Well, I genuinely would be very interested in reading your serious response to the question.  I'm very curious about how you account for the fact that other intelligent people read the Bible and do research and come to conclusions that are completely different from yours. 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 01:01:44 AM by Jaffa »
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 10321
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #196 on: November 05, 2014, 02:12:04 AM »
JD, you are a great example of how to respond to critique and disagreement.

Domo Arigato yeshaberto....domo....
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Ħ

  • Posts: 3247
  • Gender: Male
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #197 on: November 05, 2014, 10:28:27 AM »
In JD's defense, what else can one do but believe one's beliefs are true, and that those who disagree must be mistaken? It would be absurd for me to say, "I believe A, you believe ~A, but I do not believe you are wrong."

Jaffa, it seems your criticism hinges on a warped view of tolerance. Tolerance is respecting other points of view even if you think they are false. It is not thinking all points of view are equally correct.

That said, there may be such a thing as reasonable disagreement, where two parties who hold opposing beliefs are equally justified in holding their beliefs given that each party has a different set of evidence, but that does not mean both are actually in possession of true beliefs. For example, JD and Hef disagree, but they are each rational in holding to their conclusions because they are in two different epistemic situations (even though at least one of them is, in fact, wrong).
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 10321
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #198 on: November 05, 2014, 10:48:22 AM »
My study essentially started with The Bible's claim to be the infallible word of God.

Does the bible actually claim that?  If so, which books does it include in that claim?  Did God write it, or is it God's literal words spoken to men to transcribe, or is it God's ideas conveyed to man who then put them into words, or something else?

The details of your research I'll leave to you, but surely you acknowledge that you were still biased despite your professed attempts to minimize it?

Quote
Concentrating on what The Bible is teaching rather than what a man says that it teaches cuts through quite a bit of garbage.    It's unbelievable what some "teachers" claim that the Bible says when it doesn't.     The things that religious people say it teaches when it doesn't.   It's unbelievable what critics claim that it teaches when it doesn't.

Stop it with this! :lol  You are a man, telling us what the bible teaches.  Why are you exempt?  If I read the bible on my own in a vacuum, disregarding what anyone else has told me about it, and still reach different conclusions than you, how would you know whose were "what the bible is REALLY teaching"?

I won't question the integrity with which you conducted your investigation into the bible's authenticity and accuracy.  But like others have implied, your current level of unwavering certainty in the face of any and everything makes it sort of a hard sell that you were ever that genuinely open minded.

-J


I cut and paste scripture, and encourage all to look it up for themselves.   

The pattern of scripture follows this.

During the disciples preaching work...notice how God paints those who *didn't* just take what Jesus' disciples were telling them out of hand...

"Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni′ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11)



Allow me to give an illustration.   You've received a very long legal document that specifies how you and your loved ones can be comfortably taken care of in every way for the rest of your lives.   But there are a few legal points that you don't want to get stuck in, so you decide to get the advice of a lawyer.     Lawyer #1 says, "You could never understand this...you'd have to go to college for years to get through this.  Lucky for you I came along.   You just do everything I tell you to, and you and your loved ones will be set for life."    You get a second opinion.   The second lawyer sits down with you, and takes you through the legal document pointing out and allowing you to read for yourself what it says, and guiding you through the different internal references and patiently helps you to understand what that document says FOR YOURSELF.    Now, he didn't turn you into a lawyer...but you feel confident, because now if anyone tries to trick you into doing something that would forfeit that inheritance, you are armed with knowledge enough to be able to defend what you are doing.  You KNOW what that document says, you understand it, and you know what you must do.      Confidence is not the same as pride.     There are those that would choose the first lawyer, and simply be screwed out of the inheritance.    That is sad.    What's even sadder, is when you know what the legal document says, and you do understand it, and you see a fellow family member doing something that will exempt them.    You even try to show them and say, "Look...don't listen to me.  I can show you right here."....but they listened to the first lawyer.   "No...my lawyer said I have to do this."   :facepalm: 

People have to make their own decisions.   

I do know this.   So called "Christians" going to war cannot be defended in scripture.    Every religion that has ever gone to war or participated in bloodshed is simply not Christian.   Someone who was following the outline for Christians from God would die before he would ever participate in warfare.   That is what Jesus and the first century Christians all did.   One of the things they were known for was refusing military service....even if their lives were threatened. 





"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 10321
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #199 on: November 05, 2014, 11:05:09 AM »
In JD's defense, what else can one do but believe one's beliefs are true, and that those who disagree must be mistaken? It would be absurd for me to say, "I believe A, you believe ~A, but I do not believe you are wrong."

Jaffa, it seems your criticism hinges on a warped view of tolerance. Tolerance is respecting other points of view even if you think they are false. It is not thinking all points of view are equally correct.

That said, there may be such a thing as reasonable disagreement, where two parties who hold opposing beliefs are equally justified in holding their beliefs given that each party has a different set of evidence, but that does not mean both are actually in possession of true beliefs. For example, JD and Hef disagree, but they are each rational in holding to their conclusions because they are in two different epistemic situations (even though at least one of them is, in fact, wrong).

Great post actually...

I love conversation based on the idea of "agreeing to disagree".    The thing is, that even most religions actually view The Bible as the word of men.   One of the more interesting observations I read from a theologist and Bible scholar  is that many (MANY) faiths view God's Word in a very "that was then, this is now" state of mind.    The Bible is viewed as being written by imperfect men with an imperfect point of view, and thus, what they wrote must be taken as such.  Church leaders set themselves up (or their particular religion up) as having learned so much more than those people that wrote the Bible, and so believe themselves and their adherents to be much more enlightened now.   Basically, the Bible is viewed as outdated.   Thus, it's not deemed as important to live by Bible standards.  Because those men were simply writing their thoughts at the time, and we've learned so much more now that we are just in the same boat so we have our own form of Christianity based on what has been learned since the Bible was written. 

If you believe this, we just have to agree to disagree.    Once you've gone into this reasoning, then your beliefs don't have to adhere to scripture, because it's not from God and not *the* standard by which we must live.     

But as for me, I do hold the Bible up to be a letter from God himself, and it is the unifying standard by which we can truly know for sure whether we are actually following God or not.    It serves as a mirror, by which I must constantly check myself every day...always trying to grow and bring myself more into harmony with his standards as time goes on, and looking for opportunities to show others (bear witness) to what I've seen and learned. 

EDIT: ....which, now that I think about it, brings us full circle to Penn Gillette's statement....didn't someone quote him earlier?   I love that guy.  I would love the opportunity to sit down to coffee with him for a couple of hours.    Not sure if we'd get beyond agreeing to disagree...but I still think it would be an amazing exchange of thought.
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Back for the Attack
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 41803
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #200 on: November 05, 2014, 12:54:55 PM »
I am certainly always open to agreeing to disagree.

However, your characterization of the attitude of people who don't view the Bible as being "written by God" doesn't really match up with the attitude of any such people of whom I have any knowledge.  Most such people (and here I am speaking of Christians) still revere the Bible.  I still consider the Bible sacred (albeit for different reasons).
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 10321
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #201 on: November 05, 2014, 01:05:27 PM »
I am certainly always open to agreeing to disagree.

However, your characterization of the attitude of people who don't view the Bible as being "written by God" doesn't really match up with the attitude of any such people of whom I have any knowledge.  Most such people (and here I am speaking of Christians) still revere the Bible.  I still consider the Bible sacred (albeit for different reasons).

My view on this particular point is mostly likely somewhat slanted toward my own region.  I talk to people at every opportunity that I can...but the Pacific Northwest is notoriously one of (if not the) most spiritually apathetic portion(s) of the entire country...statistically speaking.   And I've certainly noticed the trend in personal experience as well.     
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 3770
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #202 on: November 05, 2014, 01:59:09 PM »
The bible, from my knowledge, does not claim to be the direct word of god, but the inspired word of god.  The quran actually does say it is the word directly from god.  Just curious as to why you have not spent as much time (or more considering its claim) studying that book to vet out its claims?
You study your book so much and make claims that you understand its true meaning better than others who study it.
I get that.  But what if you are reading the wrong book to begin with?  Would you be able to study the quran with the same zeal and unbiased approach you did the bible?
This goes to my point of geography playing a part in religious choices.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Back for the Attack
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 41803
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #203 on: November 05, 2014, 02:47:36 PM »
I have studied the Koran to an extent, although not as much as I would like.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 3770
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #204 on: November 05, 2014, 04:20:48 PM »
What makes one believe the bible as opposed to the quran?
I am sure the number of people that examined both equally with no bias is very small.
The choice of what book you believe in has more to do with where you were born, and what your parents believed, than anything else I would guess.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 22161
  • Gender: Male
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #205 on: November 05, 2014, 05:43:26 PM »
The bible, from my knowledge, does not claim to be the direct word of god, but the inspired word of god.  The quran actually does say it is the word directly from god.  Just curious as to why you have not spent as much time (or more considering its claim) studying that book to vet out its claims?
You study your book so much and make claims that you understand its true meaning better than others who study it.
I get that.  But what if you are reading the wrong book to begin with?  Would you be able to study the quran with the same zeal and unbiased approach you did the bible?
This goes to my point of geography playing a part in religious choices.

When I was in second grade, I had a retired nun as a teacher. One day during our bible class, she made it a point to say something along the lines of "The bible is right and all the other books are wrong". Not trying to be a dick, just being a curious 7 year old, I asked in return "Do the other religions say they are the right ones and ours is wrong? How do we know which one is right?" .... Well. You would have thought I stood up and shot someone. She had the principle in that room before I could even process what I said and my parents both got calls at work saying I was starting trouble in the classroom. I still held out faith until 8th grade.

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 22161
  • Gender: Male
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #206 on: November 05, 2014, 05:46:31 PM »
What makes one believe the bible as opposed to the quran?
I am sure the number of people that examined both equally with no bias is very small.
The choice of what book you believe in has more to do with where you were born, and what your parents believed, than anything else I would guess.

I'm not the biggest fan of RD, but he nailed it here (all before the 1:02 mark).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKGtcVoBhBQ

Offline yeshaberto

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8976
  • Gender: Male
  • Somebody Get Me A Doctor! - VH
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #207 on: November 05, 2014, 06:09:38 PM »
The bible, from my knowledge, does not claim to be the direct word of god, but the inspired word of god.  The quran actually does say it is the word directly from god.  Just curious as to why you have not spent as much time (or more considering its claim) studying that book to vet out its claims?
You study your book so much and make claims that you understand its true meaning better than others who study it.
I get that.  But what if you are reading the wrong book to begin with?  Would you be able to study the quran with the same zeal and unbiased approach you did the bible?
This goes to my point of geography playing a part in religious choices.

When I was in second grade, I had a retired nun as a teacher. One day during our bible class, she made it a point to say something along the lines of "The bible is right and all the other books are wrong". Not trying to be a dick, just being a curious 7 year old, I asked in return "Do the other religions say they are the right ones and ours is wrong? How do we know which one is right?" .... Well. You would have thought I stood up and shot someone. She had the principle in that room before I could even process what I said and my parents both got calls at work saying I was starting trouble in the classroom. I still held out faith until 8th grade.

That really troubles me.  And what troubles me even more is that it probably isn't too far out of the ordinary in some cases.


Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 22161
  • Gender: Male
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #208 on: November 05, 2014, 06:21:38 PM »
The bible, from my knowledge, does not claim to be the direct word of god, but the inspired word of god.  The quran actually does say it is the word directly from god.  Just curious as to why you have not spent as much time (or more considering its claim) studying that book to vet out its claims?
You study your book so much and make claims that you understand its true meaning better than others who study it.
I get that.  But what if you are reading the wrong book to begin with?  Would you be able to study the quran with the same zeal and unbiased approach you did the bible?
This goes to my point of geography playing a part in religious choices.

When I was in second grade, I had a retired nun as a teacher. One day during our bible class, she made it a point to say something along the lines of "The bible is right and all the other books are wrong". Not trying to be a dick, just being a curious 7 year old, I asked in return "Do the other religions say they are the right ones and ours is wrong? How do we know which one is right?" .... Well. You would have thought I stood up and shot someone. She had the principle in that room before I could even process what I said and my parents both got calls at work saying I was starting trouble in the classroom. I still held out faith until 8th grade.

That really troubles me.  And what troubles me even more is that it probably isn't too far out of the ordinary in some cases.

That wasn't the only time that school and I duked it out. When I was in 8th grade, for whatever reason, it was perfectly appropriate for the class to be having a conversation about blacks being the best at sports. I said that was because we only brought the strongest slaves over and they were able to make strong babies. I got suspended for that one.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 10321
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: What do you believe? How much do you really believe it?
« Reply #209 on: November 05, 2014, 07:11:00 PM »
I have looked into the Quran quite a bit.   Some brief thoughts....

Whereas The Bible began in the middle east (the OT being written in Hebrew originally began in the 16th Century B.C.E.) and spreading to Rome and Greece (through the 1st Century C.E.) and was intended to go into all the earth, the Arabic Quran was intended by Mohammed to be solely for Arabs and was put together between 610 and 632 C.E.).    I really enjoy some parts of the Quran.   At least it agrees with what the Bible says about there only being One True God (not many...or three in one).   

There are some interesting citations encouraging looking back into more ancient books to get answers (See Yunus 10:94, Al-Anbya 21:7...there are others).   But in many cases, I can come up with more examples, it just seems to admit outwardly that it doesn't have all the answers and to look to the older scriptures, or to those who were already versed in the existing scriptures.    In this way, the Quran seems to be giving the nod to the existing writings of Moses contained in The Bible.   

So it really all came back to the Bible.   And since God tells us in Hebrews that the use of prophets were ended with Christ....I cannot put too much stock in anyone post-Christ who claims to be a prophet.   There are no post-Christ prophets.    The prophets were all pointing to Christ, and Christ came.   Their purpose was served. 
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude