The PC thread

[cramx3]

Considering how hot my data center can be, computers these days are fairly resilient to heat.

You guys must have some insane air conditioning going on. Would love to know what that electric bill looks like 

Cooling is a major concern and demand from any data center.  Each room will have multiple CRAC units (essentially a very big AC unit) that pushes cold air under the floor which rises from ventilated floor tiles in front of each server rack and then the servers all have fans to suck in the cold air from the front and blow out the hot air in the back which then rises and the CRAC units suck in the hot air from above and rinse and repeat.  This process costs a lot of money, but the electric bill is really hammered by all the devices running 24/7 and creating all that heat.  Our Amsterdam data center has cold containment so you enter essentially a room within the data center that is freezing but once you step outside that cold containment zone, it's like 100 degrees.  I absolutely hate working in that datacenter, but it's much more efficient for cooling.

[The Walrus]

Considering how hot my data center can be, computers these days are fairly resilient to heat.

You guys must have some insane air conditioning going on. Would love to know what that electric bill looks like 

Cooling is a major concern and demand from any data center.  Each room will have multiple CRAC units (essentially a very big AC unit) that pushes cold air under the floor which rises from ventilated floor tiles in front of each server rack and then the servers all have fans to suck in the cold air from the front and blow out the hot air in the back which then rises and the CRAC units suck in the hot air from above and rinse and repeat.  This process costs a lot of money, but the electric bill is really hammered by all the devices running 24/7 and creating all that heat.  Our Amsterdam data center has cold containment so you enter essentially a room within the data center that is freezing but once you step outside that cold containment zone, it's like 100 degrees.  I absolutely hate working in that datacenter, but it's much more efficient for cooling.

Damn! There's a building in town here that I visited a few years ago - I think it's owned by AT&T - and one of the guys took us inside into the data server storage room and it blew my mind. I think they might have had something similar to that kind of set-up going; it was filled with an insane amount of servers but it felt like an icebox in there but it was super warm outside. That would be really cool/stressful to manage all that and make sure everything stays cooled properly.

[cramx3]

The building engineers handle all that.  We do pay for power though and it's why my team spends the most money of any other team in the company and it's not even close. 

I'll give tours to other teams who are interesting in checking out our data center, it's pretty cool to see everyone amazed by it all.  I certainly was, but I've been doing this a long time so I'm kind of dull to it all now.  However, it's always interesting to see other data centers and how they do things, but other than maybe facebook/google/amazon, I think our data centers are actually some of the most complex since we compete with those companies, just on a smaller scale. 

[The Walrus]

I would love to take a tour of Facebook/Google/Amazon's largest server rooms. That would be a trip.

[cramx3]

I would love to take a tour of Facebook/Google/Amazon's largest server rooms. That would be a trip.

it's on youtube

Here's Googlehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZmGGAbHqa0

What I find interesting is their servers are all open chassis.  Everything is so consistent and streamlined. 

[cramx3]

Not sure if there's a better spot to post this question than here...

So for my job, and everyone mostly working from home, they have allowed us to be able to spend money to set up your home desk.  Essentially they allowed people to purchase certain things like monitors and keyboards and whatnot, but they also are giving a $200 credit towards a standing desk, won't let you expense or give credit to a normal sit down desk.  Does anyone have experience using a standing desk?  I'm considering it, for one because I can, but also because I sit so much when I WFH that I actually wouldn't mind standing more.  Typically they are going to be more than 200 so I don't want to get one if people's experiences with them are poor, but I don't know anyone who uses one personally.

[XJDenton]

I have a variable height desk (sitting to standing) at work. It definitely helps with posture related pain.

[cramx3]

I have a variable height desk (sitting to standing) at work. It definitely helps with posture related pain.

I'd definitely get an adjustable one.  My posture is not very good so that's another benefit to using one.

[The Walrus]

I've always wanted an adjustable one. Don't know if I could stand having a fixed standing desk though.

[faizoff]

Back in the office I used to have an adjustable desk like XDJs, it was a whole desk that could go up or down. I liked it a lot. I've worked with standing setups before and they are great. Just one thing to remember is that when standing it helps to have one foot rest on a step stool or something, it's greatly helps your back.

At home I have a sitting desk.

[pg1067]

Here's a question for folks more knowledgeable than I (which is probably anyone reading this thread):

My 18-year old wants a new computer for digital music production (rap and hip hop stuff).  He sent me a list of parts and is thinking of trying to build it himself.  He has no experience or particular learning in this area, but one or more of his friends has told him that it's not that difficult to do.  I googled "how hard is it to build a PC," and the first couple search results seemed to support that.  Nonetheless, my concern is that he/I will buy a bunch of expensive components and he'll mess something up or he'll do it right and it still won't work.

So...

Am I being overly concerned?  Is it really not that difficult?  Is it really possible just to buy a case, a mother board, a processor, etc. and put them together and get a computer that will kick ass?

What are the pitfalls?  Traps to avoid?

What is he likely to have overlooked with his list of parts (I copied his list below, and this is obviously just the PC and doesn't include any software or peripherals)?

Thanks!


His list:

AMD Ryzen 7 3700x 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor

Cooler Master Hyper 212 Black Edition 42 CFM CPU Cooler

MSI B450 Tomahawk Max ATX AM4 Motherboard

Corsair Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 CL 16 Memory

Western Digital Caviar Blue 1 TB 3.5" 7200 RPM Internal Hard Drive

MSI Radeon RX 580 8 GB Armor OC video card

Fractal Design Focus G ATX Mid Tower Case

Corsair CXM 650 W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-modular ATX power supply

Windows 10 Pro

A monitor

[cramx3]

So yes, it's pretty simple overall to just connect all the parts.  I would say the most difficult thing is hooking up the little connectors for your case to the motherboard (like the power button, LEDs, USB) only because you'll actually want to reference the motherboard manual to figure it all out.  It's not difficult, but that always seems to be the most "technical" part of the physical build from my experience.  However, the only time building a PC is actually difficult is when things don't work.  You can look back in this thread and see my issues with my last build earlier this summer which almost drove me insane trying to figure out.  I feel like I almost always run across some minor issue during a build that takes some time to troubleshoot and figure out.  That also includes returning parts before that arrived DOA. 

That build itself is pretty much standard so in theory, it should be fairly simple to do in a few hours.  Also, once done, you'll have some pride in your build so that's always a nice positive to the DIY mentality here.

One thing about the parts... no SSD?  You certainly don't need one, but it's really rare for a modern PC to not at least have a SSD or nowadays a m.2 NVMe.  And 1TB of HDD space, to me, seems like not much especially if you'll be recording and making music.  1TB fills up quickly especially without a SSD so the OS and all other applications will slowly eat up that HDD space.  Maybe your son doesn't need it and all is good, just saying that I personally would find the lack of an SSD the only thing that stands out from the parts list other than the keyboard and mouse.

[The Walrus]

One tip: remember to handle the CPU like it's a newborn child. It's easy to install but also easy to mess up because of all the pins. If you feel nervous dropping it in... good 

[cramx3]

One tip: remember to handle the CPU like it's a newborn child. It's easy to install but also easy to mess up because of all the pins. If you feel nervous dropping it in... good 

Yup, and the CPU only goes in one way, match the arrow. Ive totallg destroyed motherboards at work before from being careless with the pins, they are very sensitive.

[faizoff]

@pg1067

That build is a solid setup. One recommendation I would add is to get an SSD. It makes a world of a difference between a traditional internal HDD. There are a million choices these days and an M.2 NVMe drive like this one would be much faster than the WD Blue 7200 rpm one.




Like everyone said building PCs are very straight forward these days, I would suggest your son do a bit of reading and watching youtube videos before putting them together. Also important to note is to not freak out when done building and it won't power on. Many times its something trivial and quite easy to fix. The only pitfall I would say if you have a defective part, it can become a bit tedious to troubleshoot what is wrong and the delay in finding out can be frustrating.


But yeah it's a fun process and a great learning experience.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Here's a question for folks more knowledgeable than I (which is probably anyone reading this thread):

My 18-year old wants a new computer for digital music production (rap and hip hop stuff).  He sent me a list of parts and is thinking of trying to build it himself.  He has no experience or particular learning in this area, but one or more of his friends has told him that it's not that difficult to do.  I googled "how hard is it to build a PC," and the first couple search results seemed to support that.  Nonetheless, my concern is that he/I will buy a bunch of expensive components and he'll mess something up or he'll do it right and it still won't work.

So...

Am I being overly concerned?  Is it really not that difficult?  Is it really possible just to buy a case, a mother board, a processor, etc. and put them together and get a computer that will kick ass?

What are the pitfalls?  Traps to avoid?

What is he likely to have overlooked with his list of parts (I copied his list below, and this is obviously just the PC and doesn't include any software or peripherals)?

Thanks!


His list:

AMD Ryzen 7 3700x 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor

Cooler Master Hyper 212 Black Edition 42 CFM CPU Cooler

MSI B450 Tomahawk Max ATX AM4 Motherboard

Corsair Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 CL 16 Memory

Western Digital Caviar Blue 1 TB 3.5" 7200 RPM Internal Hard Drive

MSI Radeon RX 580 8 GB Armor OC video card

Fractal Design Focus G ATX Mid Tower Case

Corsair CXM 650 W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-modular ATX power supply

Windows 10 Pro

A monitor

This looks like a decent parts list for doing music production type stuff. I do a lot of stuff like this on my rig too and I also run a business that builds completely custom workstation and gaming PCs, so I have few suggestions for the your build if you don't mind spending a little bit more for a much better experience.

First I would up the RAM to 32GB (2x16) - If you start getting into more complex song and depending on the software you end up using, having more RAM can be a life saver. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016ORTNI2?tag=pcpapi-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1

I'd also spend a little more for a CPU cooler. The Hyper 212 was a great cooler (10+ years ago), but CPU's and cooler have come a long way since then. It's just an old design and it's having a harder and harder time keeping up with today's CPUs. I'd recommend the beQuiet Dark Rock Pro 4, it will keep the CPU nice and cool no matter what you are doing - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BY6F8D9?tag=pcpapi-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1

I'd also suggest adding an NVME ssd as your boot (Windows Install) drive. It will make the computer feel 100x faster than with just a HDD. Something small to install the Windows OS is all you need, plus you can always expand later if needed, of course I would keep the 1TB HDD you have listed there for storage - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KGLN3HN?tag=pcpapi-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1

Also You will have a much better build experience and better airflow/thermals with a slightly upgraded case. Fractal Design makes wonderful cases, so you are on the right track. I'd recommend their Meshify case - Meshify link

If you end up gaming on it, the RX580 will do a decent job, but if you end up getting into more demanding modern games that would be another area to upgrade. Not necessary if you are only doing music production on it though.

If you have any other questions just let me know, I'd be more than happy to help.

Also if you want a good Youtube build guide check out Bitwit's youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhX0fOUYd8Q this video is a few years old now, but 99% of it still applies.

[cramx3]

Cooler Master Hyper 212 Black Edition 42 CFM CPU Cooler

I'd also spend a little more for a CPU cooler. The Hyper 212 was a great cooler (10+ years ago), but CPU's and cooler have come a long way since then. It's just an old design and it's having a harder and harder time keeping up with today's CPUs. I'd recommend the beQuiet Dark Rock Pro 4, it will keep the CPU nice and cool no matter what you are doing - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BY6F8D9?tag=pcpapi-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1

Honestly, I believe the CPU comes with a standard fan, I'd use that over buying another one at all.  Save that money and put it towards a NVMe for your Windows drive IMO and that's a better use of your money.

[faizoff]

Cooler Master Hyper 212 Black Edition 42 CFM CPU Cooler

I'd also spend a little more for a CPU cooler. The Hyper 212 was a great cooler (10+ years ago), but CPU's and cooler have come a long way since then. It's just an old design and it's having a harder and harder time keeping up with today's CPUs. I'd recommend the beQuiet Dark Rock Pro 4, it will keep the CPU nice and cool no matter what you are doing - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BY6F8D9?tag=pcpapi-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1

Honestly, I believe the CPU comes with a standard fan, I'd use that over buying another one at all.  Save that money and put it towards a NVMe for your Windows drive IMO and that's a better use of your money.

That's true, the 3700x comes with a wraith cooler and from what I read if you're not into overclocking it should be more than enough, no need to get another cooler.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Cooler Master Hyper 212 Black Edition 42 CFM CPU Cooler

I'd also spend a little more for a CPU cooler. The Hyper 212 was a great cooler (10+ years ago), but CPU's and cooler have come a long way since then. It's just an old design and it's having a harder and harder time keeping up with today's CPUs. I'd recommend the beQuiet Dark Rock Pro 4, it will keep the CPU nice and cool no matter what you are doing - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BY6F8D9?tag=pcpapi-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1

Honestly, I believe the CPU comes with a standard fan, I'd use that over buying another one at all.  Save that money and put it towards a NVMe for your Windows drive IMO and that's a better use of your money.

That's true, the 3700x comes with a wraith cooler and from what I read if you're not into overclocking it should be more than enough, no need to get another cooler.

This is true. The Wraith Cooler actually works just as well as those Hyper 212's and it comes with the CPU. I always forget they come with them...

[pg1067]

Thanks for all the responses.  I appreciate and will try to digest them.  A couple questions, though:

Are you guys saying to have a solid-state drive (SSD - right?) in addition to or instead of the hard drive that was listed?

Also (and I guess this is related), what does "adding an NVME ssd as your boot (Windows Install) drive" mean?

As far as gaming and graphics, I made it clear to him that this is NOT an invitation to build a hot shot gaming computer.  He said that the graphics card he picked was pretty low end, and Puppies' comment seems to bear that out.

Also, are all the cables/wires/screws and what-not included with the various components?

[faizoff]

Thanks for all the responses.  I appreciate and will try to digest them.  A couple questions, though:

Are you guys saying to have a solid-state drive (SSD - right?) in addition to or instead of the hard drive that was listed?

Also (and I guess this is related), what does "adding an NVME ssd as your boot (Windows Install) drive" mean?

As far as gaming and graphics, I made it clear to him that this is NOT an invitation to build a hot shot gaming computer.  He said that the graphics card he picked was pretty low end, and Puppies' comment seems to bear that out.

Also, are all the cables/wires/screws and what-not included with the various components?

Yes, the SSD is in addition to the hard drive. Believe me it is completely worth it. You don't have to get the 1 TB on that I linked, you can get a smaller one but I would recommend around 500GB as they can fill up fast. Essentially you have two drives, the SSD is your C: drive that contains the operating system (Windows Install) and for anything data related like music, videos etc... you use the other HDD where speed isn't really needed and storage is the main idea.


I personally have 20 TB of HDD space (music/movies/photos/tons of backups..etc..) and a 500 GB SSD as the boot drive. Windows loads super fast, programs load super fast since they all should ideally reside on the C: drive.


I have the RX580 video card and granted I don't game a ton, it does plenty for casual gaming and then some more. It should be good.


Regarding cables, the motherboard sometimes comes with a few SATA cables for your hard drives. You'll have to check the documentation what they come with and if they are enough. The power supply will have all the cables for each component so those should be good. Typically all builds these days can be done without any screws. Should a component need any, it's usually provided.


Just also note if your son is connecting the PC to the internet through wifi, he'll need either a USB Wifi adaptor or a Wifi card. I usually go with the USB one, they are less hassle in my experience. Some motherboards come with a wifi card included, it might be worth checking those out.

[The Walrus]

I can vouch for wireless cards working well. At least, for me. Phones have terrible reception out in these buildings but my wifi antennas for my desktops have never had problems holding a stable connection.  Your mileage may vary of course, but that's my experience with em. Although installation is definitely much more of a hassle.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Thanks for all the responses.  I appreciate and will try to digest them.  A couple questions, though:

Are you guys saying to have a solid-state drive (SSD - right?) in addition to or instead of the hard drive that was listed?

Also (and I guess this is related), what does "adding an NVME ssd as your boot (Windows Install) drive" mean?

As far as gaming and graphics, I made it clear to him that this is NOT an invitation to build a hot shot gaming computer.  He said that the graphics card he picked was pretty low end, and Puppies' comment seems to bear that out.

Also, are all the cables/wires/screws and what-not included with the various components?

NVME is just a type of SSD that slots right into the motherboard M.2 slot. That MSI Tomahawk motherboard has 2 M.2 slots I believe, so you would put your NVME m.2 drive into that slot. Be aware there is a tiny screw that will come with the motherboard that holds it in place. Don't lose this screw otherwise you won't be able to get the drive secured. And, yes, this would be in addition to the HDD you had listed earlier, as faizoff said.

The motherboard and/or case will come with all the screws and cables you will need for hooking up components, while the power supply will come with all the cables for power (typically all you will need is the 8 pin connector for the cpu (which slots into the motherboard near the CPU), the 24 pin connector for the motherboard, a vga power connector for the video card, and power for the HDD (the NVME SSD draws its power from the motherboard)).

[faizoff]

That's right, the case usually has all the screws and cables. The only part you'll need to screw in will be the mother board to the side of the case. Everything else pretty much should just snap into place.

[pg1067]

The problem with this thread title is that I've overlooked it for a few days because "PC" makes me think more of "politically correct" than "personal computer."   


Anyway...thanks again for sharing your knowledge with me.  We're digesting everything, and I tend to mull things over a lot before making a significant purchase.  I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.

[faizoff]

I tend to mull things over a lot before making a significant purchase. 

For my next PC upgrade I think my strategy will be to just grab parts as they come to a price point I am ok with. That way I'm not splurging all at once and just pick the best sales for parts as they come. I'll leave the CPU and board for the end.

And speaking of parts, Nvidia announced their new GPU lineup with the 300 series and for some reason I might actually consider getting the new 3080 next year if prices remain somewhat sane.
Their reveal video is like a movie trailer complete with a dramatic soundtrack and reassembly of components... kinda cool actually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAuszfdldEU

[ReaperKK]

Welp watching this nvidia release I want the 3090. Too bad my 2080 will be a bitch to sell

[ReaperKK]

[ReaperKK]

How the other cards stack up:

[cramx3]

Oof that price, I mean, it's a beast of a card but I don't think I could justify that cost.  Now the 3080 might be a VERY nice upgrade from my 1080...  I think I want to pay my car off first 

[The Walrus]

Looks sexy but with that 1080ti I just bought, also a big pass. Even if I was jonesing for a new card though, that price... 

[faizoff]

Though I've never spent more than $150 for a video card, If I have my 4k setup done next year, I'm seriously looking to get add that 3080 to the rig, gaming 4k 60 fps should be a visual treat.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

24GB! Holy crap! I mean I think my system will bork if I install one of those beasts.

[ReaperKK]

I think the 3080 is the sweet spot if you have the cash to burn. I'm going to wait for third party benchmarks and see what the third party cards have to offer before deciding.

[cramx3]

Is there any reason to think bitcoin miners are going to buy all these to drive the prices up higher?