The Official Hard Rock / Classic Metal Music Discussion and Memorabilia Thread!

[jjrock88]

band sounds very solid to me.  Mike still sounds good.

[bl5150]

It took me while to get through all those WASP albums that I didn't have - it was a bit of a chore at times.  I am quite satisfied that for the most part I made the right decision not to bother much after Still Not Black Enough but there were some good ones in there that I will spin from now on.   It seems WASP has taken a similar path to DT and Queensryche in terms of my liking for new releases ............blew me away at the start , then an extended period of stuff that either doesn't do much for me or is downright crap and then coming good again to some extent in recent years.

One thing that stood out to me on many of these releases is how Blackie recycled ideas so blatantly - the brilliant variety displayed on The Headless Children has never been approached again IMHO.

The good thing from my point of view is that the sound, songwriting and Blackie's voice all seem to have made a bit of a comeback with Dominator (especially)and Babylon .  So with the 6 year break to the new one coming up I can have some legitimate expectations for something really good.  Fingers crossed.

I won't bother producing a summary (I want at least 4 rankings to work with)  as it was just me , JJ and Kade..........all we can confirm without doubt is that those guys have taste 

I also found a couple of things in my collection that I have no recollection of in terms of quality - two volumes of "The Rarities" and a live album 89 & Headless.  I will check them out during the week.  Both official live albums - Live....In The Raw and Double Live Assassins - are top notch.


Album Rankings:

1. The Headless Children
2. W.A.S.P.
3. The Crimson Idol


4.Inside The Electric Circus
5. The Last Command
5. Dominator (TIE)
7. Babylon
8. Still Not Black Enough

9. Helldorado
10 Dying For The World
10. Unholy Terror (TIE)


12 The Neon God Pt 1
13 The Neon God Pt 2
14. KFD.......WTF?



The last album that I would consider really solid is Still Not Black Enough.  At the time that was the album that lost me (same as promised Land/HITNF for Queensryche and FII for Dream Theater) but listening to it now I can see where the positives are.  Having said that it's barely hard rock , let alone metal.


Top 10 Songs

I Wanna Be Somebody
B.A.D.
Sleeping
Inside The Electric Circus
The Heretic
Mean Man
Maneater
Rebel In The FDG
Arena Of Pleasure
The Idol

[jjrock88]

Surprised to see no "wild child" in the top ten

[bl5150]

Surprised to see no "wild child" in the top ten

It was among a group of half a dozen songs I considered for the final spots. Back in the day The Last Command got much less play than the top 3 so maybe that has something to do with it.  I was also sick of hearing the riff in a number of other songs in later albums 

They're a top 10 band for me , so keeping it to ten songs is always hard.

[wolfking]

One thing that stood out to me on many of these releases is how Blackie recycled ideas so blatantly - the brilliant variety displayed on The Headless Children has never been approached again IMHO.

This is so true.  WASP are probably the band that I'd say are the worst for recycling ideas, that I've heard anyway.  Still love them all.

And yeah, the last two were a realy step up, looking forward to the new one.  Good top ten too.

[Kwyjibo]

Seems like I should check out al least your top three:

1. The Headless Children
2. W.A.S.P.
3. The Crimson Idol

And I'm sure that I heard some of the songs already and what I heard I liked. 

[wolfking]

Every heavy metal fan should check those three albums out. 

[TAC]

They're a top 10 band for me , so keeping it to ten songs is always hard.

WASP is a Top 10 band for you?!?!

[wolfking]

They're a top 10 band for me , so keeping it to ten songs is always hard.

WASP is a Top 10 band for you?!?!

THey would be a top 10 band for me too.

[bl5150]

They're a top 10 band for me , so keeping it to ten songs is always hard.

WASP is a Top 10 band for you?!?!

That's what I said 

it depends on how you rate things I suppose.  If I was to average out the ratings on their discography then they wouldn't be (neither would Queensryche or DT in that case either) ,but based on the enjoyment and time I spent playing those top 3 especially  ,then yeah.   I had Headless Children in the top 10 in my DTF Top 50 and , with the "one album per band"rule , that was effectively my favourite album from each of the bands that have been the most important to me over a lifetime.

I think WASP cop a lot of undeserved crap because of the shock rock side of things - the songs on those top 3 albums stand right up there for me.  They may not have the overall songwriting chops of an Iron Maiden or DT but when it comes to enjoyment , very few bands (or voices)  get me  like the best material from WASP.

[wolfking]

Well said.

[jjrock88]

The debut from WASP is just outstanding!

[wolfking]

Seriously gotta be one of the best debuts of all time.

[jingle.boy]

Never did get into W.A.S.P. for some reason.  Another one of those metal bands that never made it on to my radar.

[wolfking]

Never did get into W.A.S.P. for some reason.  Another one of those metal bands that never made it on to my radar.

Have you tried any of those top 3?

[jingle.boy]

Never did get into W.A.S.P. for some reason.  Another one of those metal bands that never made it on to my radar.

Have you tried any of those top 3?

Nada.

[wolfking]

Never did get into W.A.S.P. for some reason.  Another one of those metal bands that never made it on to my radar.

Have you tried any of those top 3?

Nada.

Add them to your long long list my good man.

[TAC]

it depends on how you rate things I suppose.  If I was to average out the ratings on their discography then they wouldn't be (neither would Queensryche or DT in that case either) ,but based on the enjoyment and time I spent playing those top 3 especially  ,then yeah.   I had Headless Children in the top 10 in my DTF Top 50 and , with the "one album per band"rule , that was effectively my favourite album from each of the bands that have been the most important to me over a lifetime.

I think WASP cop a lot of undeserved crap because of the shock rock side of things - the songs on those top 3 albums stand right up there for me.  They may not have the overall songwriting chops of an Iron Maiden or DT but when it comes to enjoyment , very few bands (or voices)  get me  like the best material from WASP.

OK, this is very interesting because this is a timely topic for me as I've been grappling with this recently. The dilemma is how would one ultimately rate a band when "most" of their material doesn't appeal to me, but the minority is some of the best material I've ever heard.

A few bands for me are Rush, Queensryche, and Metallica that I'm not sure where to rank.
If I did a Top 10 list that included these bands, I'd have to rank them as:

pre Signals Rush
pre Load Metallica
pre Promised Land Queensryche

Seems kind of strange because for Rush, that's only 10 years of a 40 year career. For Metallica that's 10 years of an almost 35 year career.
And for Queensryche, well that speaks for itself.

In totality, I don't think I could rate any of them in my Top 10, yet as Brent says: "very few bands (or voices)  get me  like the best material from......"

How do I balance out the mediocre material from bands with longevity?  Do I count it against them? How can I rate Rush in my Top 10 when I really haven't cared for much of what they've done for the past 30 years yet the run on 2112-MP is one of the most influential eras of music for me, and some of my favorite music of all time?

Another band that would make my Top 10 is Kiske era Helloween, yet Helloween (in totality) would not. I hate that I would have to qualify half of the bands on my Top 10, and if I have to do that, do they really belong in the first place?

What do you guys think?

Oh and Brent, WASP was #11 on your list, so not a Top 10 band!

[wolfking]

It's a very interesting topic and some good points there Tim.  I can't really add any opinions as I've always been a completist and always found something to enjoy about all of my fav bands material.  I don't think I can think of any top bands of mine that I can't get enjoyment out of their entire discography;

WASP - Love pretty much everything they have done
Maiden - Again, even love the hated and less popular eras more
Priest - Again, see above - Would prefer the 80's - Painkiller but an obscure one is my fav
Sabbath - Again, see above, Tony Martin stuff would be my most listened too
Malmsteen - Like all his work, except the last one which was crap
Helloween/Gamma Ray - Yep, again like most of what they have done
Savatage - Again, like everything
In Flames - Yeah, I guess I'm a fanboy when it comes to my bands.

So, not much valid input for me.  Although Rush does spring to mind too.  I don't think they would be a top 10, but mine would be their 80's stuff.  I love those album so much but honestly never really got into their late stuff or the early stuff, but like the synth stuff so much they would almost be a top 10. 

So yeah, I can see what you're saying, but I don't think it's an issue.  Even though I'll follow a band top to bottom, I'm not gonna question someone for not liking a certain era.  Like yourself, I'd never question your love for Helloween just cause you're only into the Kiske stuff, I don't think anyone has a right to do that.  You saw them back in the day and have a special connection with that era.  I've seen the current lineup so have more of a connection with the later stuff, but still enjoy the early stuff.  It's all good.

People bashing the Blaze era Maiden I kinda understand and would never question their love for 80's Maiden.  If a certain period is so damn perfect, it can't be ignored.

[TAC]

Yeah, there are bands like UFO and Michael Schenker that have put out some dredge, but they remain favorites of mine, and I can overlook some of the shit. I'm a lot closer to them I guess for personal reasons.

The Blaze era was such a blip on the screen of Maiden's career, but what if they continued with Blaze and there was no Reunion era? How much should I weight 80's Maiden if everything they did with Blaze was not so great?

  If a certain period is so damn perfect, it can't be ignored.

That's a great point.

[bl5150]

I have put some thought into this sort of stuff too and especially when it came to my Top 50 ........I am sure The Headless Children was in my top 10 at one point but I switched things in and out so many times. Having said that (see below) I am comfortable now that WASP is a top ten band for me.

It is amazing how many bands have produced such highs and lows within a career.  Bands like Van Halen that made some of my all time favourites AND (Cherone experiment aside) never really produced anything I hate across more than a decade are few and far between.

Funnily enough I raised this topic while talking about WASP ,but now I come to think of it ,a couple of bands inside the Top 10 have even less albums that I truly love than WASP.   So this

  If I was to average out the ratings on their discography then they wouldn't be

, although likely correct in principle, would apply even more to others in my top 10.  DT got number two almost solely on the strength of Images and Words .....in that case I justified it by telling myself it was , in the end,  a Top 50 ALBUMS list , even though ranking bands was a part of it for me when it came down to separating the cream of the crop where I was unsure.    If I was stacking up whole catalogues DT would be fighting to make my top 10 and could well rank lower than WASP.

So when I think of my favourite bands I try to focus on the enjoyment I got from the albums I love and apply some lesser weighting to the quantity of good albums they had.  The number of shockers really doesn't come into it as , in most cases , I never owned them . Even so,  DT and Queensryche both have some of the least favourite albums in my collection despite being "top tenners" in my DTF album list.

Confusing...................

If I were to somehow have a way of determining "most played bands" across my life the winner could well be Ozzy Osbourne.   Blizzard, Diary, BATM, Ultimate Sin, No Rest For The Wicked,No More Tears.......

[Kwyjibo]

Guys, you're putting much too much thought into this. 

It's nice to try and find a definite ranking and base it on mathematical numbers and percentages. But for me this will never work, there's too much gut involved when liking (or disliking) a band. And there's too much change because of that. I can name you at least twenty bands that are top 10 material. I could even rank them after giving it some thought but the next hour/day/month would produce a different ranking.

Even if I would never listen to and buy new music the ranking would change constantly. One day Van Halen would be on top, the next day Dream Theater and maybe a week later Dire Straits or Toto or Maiden or .... It's all just the feeling of the moment.

And because of this I would rank some bands higher that have a very uneven catalogue than some bands that are relatively even in quality. If the bands with the uneven quality have really grabbed me with their best output (like Queensryche for instance) my gut, feeling, whatever tells me to rank them high.

[bl5150]

Guys, you're putting much too much thought into this. 

You realise where you are , right? 

[Kwyjibo]

Yeah and it was only half meant in fun.

Even though I don't have a definite ranking/rating system I think about rankings and ratings all the time and I analyse why band x is better than band y and if it is so, why don't I listen to them more often etc. etc. And I can't count the number of times when I started to give out ratings, only to come to the realization that I really can't do it in a way that the ratings are cohesive and comparable. And even though I know it's impossible for me, I will probably start again some time in the future.

[TAC]

Guys, you're putting much too much thought into this. 

It's nice to try and find a definite ranking and base it on mathematical numbers and percentages. But for me this will never work, there's too much gut involved when liking (or disliking) a band. And there's too much change because of that. I can name you at least twenty bands that are top 10 material. I could even rank them after giving it some thought but the next hour/day/month would produce a different ranking.

Even if I would never listen to and buy new music the ranking would change constantly. One day Van Halen would be on top, the next day Dream Theater and maybe a week later Dire Straits or Toto or Maiden or .... It's all just the feeling of the moment.

And because of this I would rank some bands higher that have a very uneven catalogue than some bands that are relatively even in quality. If the bands with the uneven quality have really grabbed me with their best output (like Queensryche for instance) my gut, feeling, whatever tells me to rank them high.

I can guarantee a week later it would never be Dire Straits or Toto.


Yeah, K, there is too much thought here, but I like to hear how guys come up with their Top 10 Bands, as when I do mine, I find a lot of them are compromised by long periods of suckage. Just was really seeing how others weight these kinds of situations.

[Kwyjibo]

I can guarantee a week later it would never be Dire Straits or Toto.

And this is where you are wrong 

Maybe I have the advantage that out of my top ten bands there are very few that have long periods of sub-par or even shit material. Queensryche being the one exception. Some have mediocre albums like the Maiden-Blaze or the VH-Cherone disc, but most of my favorites are very consistent, like Dire Straits or Toto 

Metallica was never a top ten band to me, too much filler from the beginning, and I like Load a lot. The shit began with St. Anger.
Rush is nice but not top material for me. Dream Theater went down a bit with SC and BC&SL but returned to glory with the last two albums. Yes put out a lot of mediocre albums and they slowly work their way down, but I hold them still in high regard and I really liked the rabin era and the classics.

I could go on and on, but I know that this is highly subjective and therefore highly debatable.

[TAC]

So one of the reasons that I was thinking about this "Ranking" issue is that I've been on a Metallica kick as of late.
Great band.

I recently ordered 3 shows from Live Metallica (Great thing!) and have been listening to a ton of live stuff from the last half dozen years.
Obviously they play a ton of Classic material, and it is surely frustrating about the lack of quality material released over the last 20 years.
Personally I LOVED Death Magnetic. Yeah, it does sound iffy, but I think the songs are very cool, especially hearing the live versions.

I know it's a thing to criticize Lars and Kirk. Sure they can be a little sloppy, but a lot of it seems like its just fucking around, especially in Lars' case. And I cannot knock Kirk because I think he is literally one of the coolest cats in metal.

Load/Reload, and St. Anger are really drop offs for me. I'm actually thinking of ordering what live tracks there are from St. Anger and making a CD of that. And I can make an EP of 6 GREAT songs from the Load/Reload sessions. Not that I want to turn this into a discussion of latter day Metallica output...ok maybe I just did...

But I keep asking myself, where and how do I rank Metallica on my Top 10 list. I don't have the deep personal connection that I do to my Top 5, but they have been huge in my musical life, especially up until TBA, which I now hold as an absolute classic. So at the end of the day, they made 8 albums, blipped out on 3 of them, but I absolutely love 5 of them. So I guess they belong. They still kill it live, and I must say, I am so impressed with James as a frontman. But the lack of consistent new material sucks.

Anyway, that's my Metalliramble.

[Kwyjibo]

And James is one of the absolute best riff inventers and rhythm guitar players in metal. 

[TAC]

And James is one of the absolute best riff inventers and rhythm guitar players in metal. 

Yeah absolutely. Not something you say everyday, but James Hetfield is one of the most important figures in Hard Rock/Metal..ever.

[Lowdz]

I would be in the same boat with trying to rank my favourite bands - to qualify they would have had to have been around for a decent amount of time, but that increases the chances of some albums I don't care for, and it would undoubtedly include those same bands already listed.

If Asked, I would consider the following my favourite bands

DT (who I consider my favourite band even though Systematic Chaos happened and some albums have challenged me a bit)
Rush who's output between Power Windows and up to the latest album was patchy at best and complete shite at worst.
Queensryche. Don't need to say anymore do I?
KISS. Love everything up to Hot In The Shade. That's nearly 30 years with little of note since, Revenge aside.
Yngwie- I've not enjoyed much since the Concerto Suite.
Bon Jovi and Def Leppard, but only up until the early 90s
Judas Priest up until Painkiller
Gary Moore. Some iffy early albums and after the first couple of blues albums things went very poor.

I do like some newer bands but I don't have that same LOVE for them as those I grew up with.
I really can't think of any band with any longevity where I love everything they've ever done.

[wolfking]

Gary Moore's 80's run was incredible.

[gazinwales]

Indeed it was a great run.
I was gutted when he dumped the hard rock and switched to the blues.
The Live In Sweden set was brilliant still waiting for that to be officially released on DVD/BR.

The Loner was one of the first songs I learned to play on guitar and still such a powerful emotional song for me.

[TAC]

What is the Live In Sweden set? Is it similar to the Live At Montreaux?

I LOVE Gary Moore. If I could have a dream band, he'd be one of my guitarists (along with Michael Schenker).

[wolfking]

Yeah, I'm not familiar with this Sweden set either.

[gazinwales]

I think only released on VHS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_in_Stockholm:_Wild_Frontier_Tour

Great version of The Loner
https://youtu.be/-G-PtmcPyK0