Author Topic: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb  (Read 7258 times)

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Online Chino

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2014, 09:47:01 AM »
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This is an incredibly sexist blanket statement to make.

I don't see how that's at all sexist. To be honest, that actually really bothers me because the absolute last thing I ever am is sexist. I go to great lengths to not be so. A similar comment could have been made in regards to guys who pretend to like a girl, fuck them a few times, and then bounce. Had this thread been about that, my comment would have read "That's bullshit. Guys know exactly what they're doing". But this thread wasn't about that.

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you know what I've noticed about situations like that? 9/10 times, you know what the guy doesn't do? Actually make a move or TELL the woman he likes her.  But somehow it's all her fault. It's not an easy thing to do,

Some guys are shy. Some guys can't make moves. Some can't tell the girl he likes her. What pisses me off is that there are plenty of girls that know the guy is struggling and will never bring it up to them. Why can't a girl in that situation ever step in and say off the bat "hey, sorry if I'm thinking too much into this, but do you like me more than a friend? Then, after months of being afraid, the guy finally gets the courage to do something and takes a chance. He tries to kiss her and she pulls away, or he says he likes her and the girl says something like "I'm sorry, but I just see you as a friend". Please. Most (not all) are fully aware the whole time a guy is crushing on them. And I'm not saying it's all the girls fault. If the guy is a pussy, he is partially to blame. But for every time a girl can honestly say "Wow, I had no idea he/you liked me like that, there are probably a hundred that would say "I felt bad and I didn't want to hurt his feelings".

Offline senecadawg2

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2014, 09:52:29 AM »
Third, the notion of "friend zone" as misogynistic is ridiculous.   To put any emphasis on the term or concept of "friend zone" in the context of a hate crime (NOT a sex crime) such as rape is simply not doing one's homework.   If anything, it is complementary, in that it accords a level of nuance and sophistication to the female psyche that simply doesn't exist (or at least not to the same degree) in males.

What homework?

Not saying this isn't true for you, but have I never heard the phrase used in a complementary way. While it can be used in a very neutral way, to describe a situation (as many people have pointed out), it can also carry a lot of spitefulness. Comments like, 'Girls know exactly what they're doing' don't exactly come across as complementary. Everything I've ever seen from Chino has been nothing but pleasant, and I have absolutely no reason to doubt his character or assume that he is in any way misogynistic. But the above comment still stands, and like I said... it doesn't read it as complementary to me. And he's absolutely not alone.

I think it would be great to get more female perspectives in here, since this is a term typically targeted at them. And even if it wasn't completely serious, I think this is a very valid thing to bring up:

Guys call it the 'friend zone'.......girls call it the 'creep who wants to shag me zone'.....

Because, in my experience, this is true in many cases. I've known many girls that have feel threatened and made to feel guilty for friend zoning. Obviously that needs to be taken with a handful of salt, as it is just my experience. But the fact that it does exist, even if only just in my little universe, makes me think that linking the phrase to misogyny is not at all ridiculous.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 10:20:32 AM by senecadawg2 »
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2014, 10:16:55 AM »
Most (not all) are fully aware the whole time a guy is crushing on them. And I'm not saying it's all the girls fault. If the guy is a pussy, he is partially to blame. But for every time a girl can honestly say "Wow, I had no idea he/you liked me like that, there are probably a hundred that would say "I felt bad and I didn't want to hurt his feelings".

So what's your point here?  If a guy is into a girl but doesn't make an advance, the girl's a piece of shit if she doesn't happen to "notice" the guy's into her and initiate a romantic relationship?  I like you normally, Chino, but the posts you're making in this thread border on the absurd.

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2014, 10:20:06 AM »
I think, as some others have said, it can go both ways. It can simply mean "I like her/him but am considered just a friend" but it also ABSOLUTELY IS used in misogynist ways by guys who think they're owed something and are bitter because their feelings aren't returned.


I may be splitting hairs here, but isn't the misogyny (and even then, I think "misogyny" is the wrong word, or at least not the best word) in the belief that they are owed something?  That all you have to do is check the various boxes, and Bamm! legs open?   It's not just limited to "guys and girls" by a long shot (Marc Maron's entire career falls into this category) but we've lost the notion that sometimes you can do all the right things and have no return on your investment.   After my divorce, I met this girl.  Pretty face, strong, incredibly smart (Ivy League), good job, fairly open-minded, liked good music... on paper, everything you would ask for.  We went out twice and there was just... nothing.  No spark, no chemistry.  I cannot myself even put a finger on it, but there was nothing.   But people - especially where their feelings are concerned - have this incessant need for "closure!" and sometimes "the friend zone" suits that purpose. 

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2014, 10:32:32 AM »
Third, the notion of "friend zone" as misogynistic is ridiculous.   To put any emphasis on the term or concept of "friend zone" in the context of a hate crime (NOT a sex crime) such as rape is simply not doing one's homework.   If anything, it is complementary, in that it accords a level of nuance and sophistication to the female psyche that simply doesn't exist (or at least not to the same degree) in males.

What homework?

Not saying this isn't true for you, but have I never heard the phrase used in a complementary way. While it can be used in a very neutral way, to describe a situation (as many people have pointed out), it can also carry a lot of spitefulness. Comments like, 'Girls know exactly what they're doing' don't exactly come across as complementary. Everything I've ever seen from Chino has been nothing but pleasant, and I have absolutely no reason to doubt his character or assume that he is in any way misogynistic. But the above comment still stands, and like I said... it doesn't read it as complementary to me. And he's absolutely not alone.

The "homework" being that it is a far cry from "not complimentary" to being misogynistic or worse, indicative of a sexual predator.  Why can't it be just what it is:  an unfortunate and not welcome descriptor of a situation in which two people see things in different ways?   See my above post:  in this age of reality TV, where everyone feels entitled (and I mean that word in every sense of it) to have their interview moment in front of the camera (think the couch spots on Big Brother), we're probably ascribing way too much import to what is at essence a poor and misguided way of assuaging one's ego. 

Quote
I think it would be great to get more female perspectives in here, since this is a term typically targeted at them. And even if it wasn't completely serious, I think this is a very valid thing to bring up:

Guys call it the 'friend zone'.......girls call it the 'creep who wants to shag me zone'.....

Because, in my experience, this is true in many cases. I've known many girls that have feel threatened and made to feel guilty for friend zoning. Obviously that needs to be taken with a handful of salt, as it is just my experience. But the fact that it does exist, even if only just in my little universe, makes me think that linking the phrase to misogyny is not at all ridiculous.

But what am I missing?   Making someone who is female feel guilty or threatened for not doing what I want them to do is not itself "misogyny".   I personally wouldn't resort to those tactics, but even if I did, it is not evidence at all that I have a deep and systemic hatred of and prejudice against all women.  I think Mari in high school was a nutcase for wanting to play hang out with me but not date me, and even if do characterize that as "being stuck in the friend zone", and even if I am bitter at how it turned out, that doesn't mean I hate all women.   Just her.  ;) 

Offline Orbert

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2014, 10:42:54 AM »
It comes back to the basic difference between men and women.  If a guy asks a girl out, buys her dinner, pays for the movie, in his mind, he is expressing interest.  These are the things one does to show a girl that he's interested.  Does he really have to sit there at the table over dinner and say, "You know, I really like you.  You have awesome tits."  (Sorry, got a little carried away there, but you get the point.)

Did the girl actually think that throughout this entire evening that they were just two friends hanging out and that this wasn't a date?  The fact that he asked her out, picked her up, offerred to pay for the dinner and the movie, extended all the courtesies... none of that was a clue that this was a date?

I'm not saying that doing these things entitles him to anything.  At any point, she can tell him that this is all great, but she's not interested in him romantically.  And that's it.  He accepts that they're just friends, or if he can't, he can hit the road.  But she does need to say that, because yeah, friends go out, pay for each other's meals or whatever, but after the second or third time, she should get the idea that he's thinking about pushing for more than friendship.

Communication is hard.  She can say "I think you should know..." just as easily as he can say "By the way, I am interested in banging you, hard."  And again, he probably thought his intentions were clear.  I'm not trying to put all the responsibilty on her, but if you expect him to act a certain way (make his intentions clear) you can also expect her to act a certain way (read the signs and let him know where he stands).

Offline rumborak

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2014, 11:17:36 AM »
Having read too many posts in the "Lonely Hearts" thread, I can definitely confirm that a lot of guys use the term to describe their own inadequacy of letting a girl know of his interest.
Women aren't these clairvoyant Oracles of Delphi. More than one woman I was later together with told me "nope, had no idea you were interested in me until you made the overt move."
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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2014, 11:19:48 AM »
I think this argument stems form the fact that most men like to hang with men and girls with girls for leisure or "Friend time".  While most know that is not always the truth, it is the majority.  So when a guy wants to hang with a chick, it's for more than friends.

Now to disprove my point.  Jackie, The wife and I are dying to knock a few beers down.  Next N.E. Trip we will meet up.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2014, 11:40:14 AM »
Women aren't these clairvoyant Oracles of Delphi.

You mean solely in this instance?

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2014, 11:47:20 AM »
I think this argument stems form the fact that most men like to hang with men and girls with girls for leisure or "Friend time".  While most know that is not always the truth, it is the majority.  So when a guy wants to hang with a chick, it's for more than friends.

Now to disprove my point.  Jackie, The wife and I are dying to knock a few beers down.  Next N.E. Trip we will meet up.

I want to come!

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2014, 11:49:16 AM »
I want to come!

Which is apparently the heart of the argument for the detractors of the terminology.

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2014, 11:54:45 AM »
Goddammit, Coz.
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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2014, 12:02:29 PM »
I think this argument stems form the fact that most men like to hang with men and girls with girls for leisure or "Friend time".  While most know that is not always the truth, it is the majority.  So when a guy wants to hang with a chick, it's for more than friends.

Now to disprove my point.  Jackie, The wife and I are dying to knock a few beers down.  Next N.E. Trip we will meet up.

I want to come!

Hell yeah!

I want to come!

Which is apparently the heart of the argument for the detractors of the terminology.

I love you.
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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2014, 12:04:41 PM »
I was friend zoned a couple times back in the day and never blamed anyone but myself. I didn't make it clear what I was interested in. Frustrating that she didn't pick up on it, but I can't blame her that I didn't say anything or go in for a kiss. I know some people use the term to justify their anger with a girl and blame it all on her, but most don't in my experience.

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2014, 12:06:56 PM »

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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2014, 12:33:00 PM »
It's the tagline to the infamous Cozmo pic you posted in the chat thread.

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2014, 12:38:53 PM »
So I had no idea what this thread was about, but everytime I click on DTF I see that a different DTFer has responded, King, Coz, Hef, Rumbo, etc. . So I figure I'll troll it and see what it's all about.

Geez, after reading it, I'm glad I'm married!!
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline rumborak

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2014, 12:42:49 PM »
Fun fact: When you're married, the "friend zone" gets renamed into "migraines".
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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2014, 01:07:31 PM »
So I had no idea what this thread was about, but everytime I click on DTF I see that a different DTFer has responded, King, Coz, Hef, Rumbo, etc. . So I figure I'll troll it and see what it's all about.

Geez, after reading it, I'm glad I'm married!!


First thing I thought too!   :rollin




Most of the girls I was "just friends" with when I was younger were just fuck-buddies.  I had a few over the years.  In fact, my wife of [almost] 14 years was a fuck-buddy at one time.  I'd swing by her apartment, throw it in her, take a shower, then hit the road.   Ahh, yes, life was good.  ;D

Offline rumborak

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2014, 01:10:32 PM »
She still sees you that way, kirk.
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Offline OpenYourEyes311

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2014, 01:11:03 PM »
It works both ways. I've hung out with girls where I want to hook up, and made it happen. Usually they were surprised, like they didn't know I wanted to be with them. I've also hung out with some that knew I wanted to get together, some reciprocated, and some didn't.

On the other side, I've had girls hit on me overtly, and I went home with some, and not others. I've also had the opportunity to be surprised when a friend of mine asked me out, and I had no idea she was interested.

The Friend Zone totally exists, but it doesn't have to. All anyone needs to do is let the other person know how you feel, then you'll know how they feel. Friend-Zoning really only happens when people are being jerks, because the concept is that one knows you're interested, knows they don't feel the same way, but still leads you on. That's what the friend zone is about, and it's a terrible thing to do to someone. But it can definitely go both ways.
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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2014, 01:14:39 PM »
Fun fact: When you're married, the "friend zone" gets renamed into "migraines".

"Not tonight". :lol
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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2014, 03:45:14 PM »
"I raised the baby, I changed the baby's diapers.  Whenever the baby had projectile diarrhea, I was there in the line of fire.  I even got a little in my mouth!  I sacrificed so much for my baby.  Now my baby hates me and thinks Mike Mangini is its real father!"

Offline rumborak

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #60 on: September 19, 2014, 04:30:22 PM »
I disagree. If you're actually interested, it is better to be met with downright indifference. Friend-zoning means you have that carrot dangling in front of your face for years.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #61 on: September 19, 2014, 06:01:25 PM »
I think maturity level and experience come into play here too.  When I was in high school, I didn't even realize that my best friend - my BEST FRIEND in the entire world, a guy who was like a brother to me for 3 years, wanted more than just my friendship.  I didn't discover this until one drunken evening I was crying and lamenting about a boy who I had a huge crush on had done me wrong.  I admitted I'd let him in my bed and then the asshole dumped me - for a gal he eventually married!  Low and behold, my best friend started sobbing uncontrollably at the thought I'd let this other guy touch me.  Seriously, you could've knocked me over with a feather.  I had NO IDEA.  Anyway, a few months later he moved to another state and though we are still friends, we are no longer close.  I always thought that one drunking night was the death of our friendship.  It was never the same after that.

Live and learn.  I never again took the "friend zone" the same way again.  I was always clear from the beginning with men that either I was interested in more than friendship, or that was all it would ever be between us.  So there were never misunderstandings and hurt feelings.
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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #62 on: September 19, 2014, 07:42:23 PM »
it could always be worse

It even gets worst than that.  There will come a time where that person you liked and known for a long time may not want to think that you exist anymore after a series of events going horribly wrong.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 07:47:59 PM by Anguyen92 »

Offline Fluffy Lothario

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2014, 02:44:53 AM »
I have a friend / ex who is a mild tumblr feminist, and she utterly despises this term. I don't recall it ever coming up in conversation, but she posts about it on fb every second Sunday.

I can see both sides of the argument.

Yes, the term is male-centric, you will rarely see girls using it, but isn't it obvious why? Because the way sex works, guys have to do 95% of the 'chasing'. Hundreds of thousands of years of that behaviour, and our brains are probably going to be wired to seeing members of the opposite sex as a prospect much more readily. Is it really a surprise then that guys find themselves, exponentially more often, in situations where they were seeking more than a friendship, and the girl wasn't? And that a term arose for such situations?

Yes, I've seen cases where it's used with bitterness (more than seems warranted by being turned down), that when some guys use it, it carries a sense of 'I put in all this effort, I was owed something", that some guys lean on it when the reality is, they should've said or done something earlier.

And I've also seen times where, in the scenario the use of the term is describing, the girl's behaviour was itself appalling - girls who have exploited friendships with guys because they knew they had feelings for them.

I had a friend some years ago. I had feelings for her, told her I liked her, she wasn't interested, but we decided to stay friends (many of my close friends are girls, not one of those guys who can't do that). In the holiday period which followed, for which I came to find I had no prospects but to sit at home alone or travel alone, she suggested, and eventually insisted, I travel with her to another country, to which, considering I was trying to get over feelings for her, I at first said fuck no, but with time and pressure, reluctantly agreed. A few days into the holiday, she confesses she hasn't saved for it, and asks me for money. It was years before I actually processed it properly, but I really think that was the main, if not the sole reason I was invited on said holiday, and why she practically begged me to come. She had realised after booking that she was short on money, and in light of recent events, I was the perfect friend, with that perfect cocktail of rebutted, reluctant, but still present feelings, and by exploiting those feelings, said holiday could still go ahead without any sacrifice having to be made on her part.

I don't consider what happened there an example of the "friend zone", I had been told no, and was going forward with the friendship under the impression that nothing would happen, and I had to swallow my feelings and deal with it. But considering the fact that she recognised those feelings of mine and intentionally manipulated me and our friendship with them, I think I can understand some of the bitterness some guys are slinging when they talk of situations they describe as the "friend zone".

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2014, 05:29:53 PM »
That was fucked up of her :(

Did you actually give her money?? I would've been like "Peace, bitch" and enjoyed the country alone.
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Offline Fluffy Lothario

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2014, 01:54:16 AM »
I gave her the money, and she paid it back some months later. I did think it was a little bit strange and irresponsible of her at the time, but like I said, I didn't actually fully question what was going on there for years.

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2014, 01:25:50 PM »
Can I ask a question of the females here, and get an HONEST answer?  Are you really telling us that you have NO IDEA how to tell if a guy is interested in you without an overt, verbal exclamation of interest?  I'm really finding that hard to believe, and contrary to a lot of human nature.  I am the farthest thing from a jealous person, but I'm dealing with something like this a little in a personal relationship.   I just find it hard to believe that it's so all or nothing.

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2014, 01:35:22 PM »
Can I ask a question of the females here, and get an HONEST answer?  Are you really telling us that you have NO IDEA how to tell if a guy is interested in you without an overt, verbal exclamation of interest?  I'm really finding that hard to believe, and contrary to a lot of human nature.  I am the farthest thing from a jealous person, but I'm dealing with something like this a little in a personal relationship.   I just find it hard to believe that it's so all or nothing.

I got called a sexist for saying that earlier.

Offline Grizz

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2014, 01:59:20 PM »
Not quite the same. It can't be made as a blanket statement. I'm sure plenty do and plenty don't. Plus, the way you said it almost seemed to convey that all women are minor sociopaths that like stringing potential suitors along.
"I raised the baby, I changed the baby's diapers.  Whenever the baby had projectile diarrhea, I was there in the line of fire.  I even got a little in my mouth!  I sacrificed so much for my baby.  Now my baby hates me and thinks Mike Mangini is its real father!"

Offline Orbert

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Re: "Friend Zone" -- It's a noun and a verb
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2014, 02:15:39 PM »
Almost?