How can people think DT are bad?

[Skeever]

The main thing that annoys me is when you're in a group of people - and you mention Dream Theater -

and as one they all chorus - awesome band - shit singer.

Like it's a fact. Or they are scared of admitting they like LaBrie in case someone in their clique takes the piss

Actually, that's what every DT fan I've ever met thinks, lol

It wasn't until signing up here that I realized that there are people who really love - not just like, but love - James' singing.

James has never bothered me, but around Train of Thought his vocals really started to grate me, personally. Still love the band and couldn't imagine them with a different singer.

[Xenon]

Because they are

I hate them. And I love them. But don't tell anyone I like em 

[chaossystem]

also, just to clarify, its not the fact he didn't like the music, more the fact that he though the stuff they played was just average. Even people who don't like prog have to admit:
JP is amazing at guitar
JLB is amazing at vocals
JM is amazing at bass
JR is amazing at 100000 different thingy-majigs
and
MM is amazing a drums.

While I agree with all of your points, not everyone will.

If you go on the net, you can find plenty of hatred towards the band.

Just type in something like "Dream Theater sucks," and you'll see what I mean.

They not only attack the BAND, but tear into the members individually, saying shit like "Petrucci only plays so fast to cover his inability to play a decent solo or lead."

Now, I don't agree with any of that bullshit. I DO agree with you that they ARE some of the best musicians in the world.

But saying that anyone else HAS to agree with us is just like saying that I HAVE to like bands like Bon Jovi, Def Leppard, Whitesnake, and especially Motley Crue, all of which are bands that I DESPISE, and you probably couldn't PAY me to listen to them!

On the other hand, there are bands that I like, such as AC/DC that most people on here probably can't STAND, and I'm fine with that. It's NOT going to stop ME from listening to them and liking their music.

Everyone has different opinions about different things, and when it comes to music, not everyone is going to hear-or NOT hear-what YOU hear.

As for your friend: maybe you didn't know enough about what kind of music he likes before you had him listen to "Caught in a Web." Maybe you should have picked "6:00," "Innocence Faded," "Scarred," or a song from another album, such as "New Millennium" or "Lines in the Sand" from Falling Into Infinity" or one of the songs from "Images and Words." I have to agree with the other posters who said that "Caught" was a bad choice to start with, unless you chose one of the LIVE versions.

[Outcrier]

They not only attack the BAND, but tear into the members individually, saying shit like "Petrucci only plays so fast to cover his inability to play a decent solo or lead."

I agree that DT members overdo their playing sometimes, especially after FII, but i totally disagree that they are only virtuosos that shred for the sake of it.
Frankly, i think there are exaggerations from the two sides, the fans that think DT are musical gods and the ones that say they are just musical masturbation or whatever 

[Kotowboy]

I can't stand proper punk. They always seem to have horrendously recorded albums.

[James Mypetgiress]

I can't stand proper punk. They always seem to have horrendously recorded albums.

Some would argue that that is the point. Punk is supposed to be cheap, and dirty. I think the idea was that it made it seem like anyone could do it. And, they can. I love the ideology of punk, that anyone can start a band, despite the fact they aren't really that musically gifted, but, I just feel that, in some cases, this is taken to the worst level possible. I.e Dwarves. (Listen to their song, astro boy, I dare you  )

[Kotowboy]

I can't even bear NOFX.

[James Mypetgiress]

I can't even bear NOFX.

Virtual high fives "OMG, we are like.... So in sync"

[James Mypetgiress]

Why the fuck did I do that...

[Implode]

It okay to not like thing.

[Xenon]

In adittion, it's good for them not liking DT. A lot less suffering in their lives. 

[ChuckSteak]

Because people have a different taste. How would you like if a friend acted like you did about his favorite band? And ask yourself: why don't you like other bands that people love so much? Same answer: taste.

[Rodni Demental]

I can't stand proper punk. They always seem to have horrendously recorded albums.

That's because they don't give a shit, and that's the whole kind of attitude thing that goes with the genre and part of the appeal even.


Anyway, in regards to the original posters comments; not to deliberately say something potentially controversial but I think you'll find most of us here aren't into Sex Pistols because I just get the feeling that someone that's a fan of DT is probably going to be more picky about compositional content and production, musicianship and accuracy. Not necessarily aspects that are important in punk music. Not trying to one up one band over the other or undermine an entire genre, just trying to acknowledge the differences between these bands and understand the different reasons why each one appeals to different people. My point of view is incomplete, but that's why it's a point of view. It should be obvious what side of the fence I'm on, but I think you'll find most people here (somewhat) agree with you and are on the same page regarding SP. It's just, saying stuff like "they aren't really that musically gifted" is still a bit unfair because there is no correlation between that statement and the differences between these bands unless part of that statement derives from your comparison of Dream Theater. To be a bit more fair; I believe anyone who can construct a piece of music and can find an audience that connects to what they've created, has to be "musically gifted" on some level. 

[theaterdream]

I know people who say DT is an amazing band instrumentally but the singer not so much. For example, the way he sang earlier in his career was so over the top. They say his singing didn't match the song and that he sounds like he is shouting  instead of carrying the notes. I do tend to agree that he shouts sometimes. Maybe that is the more metal side. I noticed this actually on a song I do kind of like...Endless Sacrifice. James does tend to shout the course "Endless Sacrifice". And again on another
favorite Blind Faith. I think James singing is great actually on their two most recent studio albums.

[rumborak]

I can't stand proper punk. They always seem to have horrendously recorded albums.

As others have mentioned, that is indeed the point of the albums. One should also point that DT aren't exactly the zenith of recording either. DT12 is brickwalled and has really artificial sounding drums. I could not hold it against somebody if they said "I'd rather have a shoddy recording where I know it's them, versus a piecemealed, overdubbed and compressed artificial entity."

[manticore999]

First off, I wouldn't have used that song as an introduction to DT.  I would have used something a little more accessible.  Secondly, I love a lot of what DT have done but I don't like that song at all.  Not even a little.  If your friend has an open mind and doesn't hate the genre completely maybe he'd like other songs of theirs.

[Kotowboy]

I can't stand proper punk. They always seem to have horrendously recorded albums.

As others have mentioned, that is indeed the point of the albums. One should also point that DT aren't exactly the zenith of recording either. DT12 is brickwalled and has really artificial sounding drums. I could not hold it against somebody if they said "I'd rather have a shoddy recording where I know it's them, versus a piecemealed, overdubbed and compressed artificial entity."

Yes I know. The irony with punk is that - it's all " break all the rules - do what you want " ethos. So surely that should include going against the DIY album recording ethic


That - and I was a production student - so I tend to take a little bit more notice. Although - not as much as some people on this forum !

[seasonsinthesky]

Yea, opinions and stu---WHY DID YOU START WITH CAUGHT IN A WEB?!

Seriously, so many better starter songs to choose from.

[TheGreatPretender]

First off, I wouldn't have used that song as an introduction to DT.  I would have used something a little more accessible.  Secondly, I love a lot of what DT have done but I don't like that song at all.  Not even a little.  If your friend has an open mind and doesn't hate the genre completely maybe he'd like other songs of theirs.

I think that's the whole problem with a lot of DT haters. They heard one or two songs and passed judgment on the band strictly from that. Pull Me Under is a great song, but apart from JLB's vocals, I don't think it showcases the full capabilities of any of the TD members.
My point is that a lot of these haters have such a tiny scope of what kind of music DT actually plays, that they'll make broad, inaccurate and horribly ignorant statements like, "JP can't play good leads," or that he doesn't have good riffs.

But if those people can't be bothered to look at a couple of other songs, then screw them. They can continue to live in their narrow holes. I'll enjoy DT's music without the need for other people's validation.

[Riitasointi]

I think people want other people to like their favorite music because it's much more fun to enjoy something together.

[TheGreatPretender]

I think people want other people to like their favorite music because it's much more fun to enjoy something together.

Of course, that's understandable. But when it comes to my friends, I sure as hell don't give up at just one song. Personally, I always say, "If you don't like Dream Theater, then you just haven't heard the right song."

[rumborak]

I always laugh at the statement of "they need to listen to at least 5 songs before they can dislike it!"
How much caviar does one need to eat to know that you don't like salty fish eggs? Exactly, one helping.
DT is a pretty self-consistent band. I can fully believe a person can decide after one song that they won't like the rest.

Unless the only song they hear is Vacant or SDV.

[Mosh]

Or Burning My Soul. Or Status Seeker. Or Build Me Up, Break Me Down.

DT isn't that self consistent, come on. There are plenty of DT songs that would've made me dislike the band if I heard them first.

[TheGreatPretender]

I always laugh at the statement of "they need to listen to at least 5 songs before they can dislike it!"
How much caviar does one need to eat to know that you don't like salty fish eggs? Exactly, one helping.
DT is a pretty self-consistent band. I can fully believe a person can decide after one song that they won't like the rest.

Unless the only song they hear is Vacant or SDV.

Not really. DT is a very diverse band. Your comparison really doesn't work. DT is a lot more like ice cream than caviar. If you generally dislike sweet things, maybe you won't like any ice cream, but there are so many different flavors that if you don't like chocolate or vanilla, you might find something like cherry, or butterscotch that you do like.
You can't say, "Well, if you don't like Take Away My Pain, then you probably won't like As I Am or Metropolis."

[rumborak]

With the exception of Status Seeker (different singer than the rest of the albums), those other two are going to inform you a) that James LaBrie, a rather polarizing singer, is singing b) that they like fast solos and arythmical sections and c) that their approach to music is somewhat "mathematical" and d) most importantly, it's metal.
I got exposed to DT through PMU, and it gave me an idea of the band ("Metallica meets Genesis " was what I thought) which has changed reasonably little.

Now, if this discussion was about bands like Genesis, Pink Floyd, U2 or Opeth, bands who massively reinvented themselves, I could see that argument a bit more.

I think you guys have lost the frame of reference somewhat by focusing on the small stylistic differences of DT. Overall they are a very self-consistent band.

And the caviar comparison is definitely a lot better than ice cream. Everybody loves ice cream. Prog metal is a niche thing that not a lot of people like.

[TheGreatPretender]

And the caviar comparison is definitely a lot better than ice cream. Everybody loves ice cream. Prog metal is a niche thing that not a lot of people like.

Again, you're really looking at it through a pin sized hole. Yes, Prog Metal as a genre is pretty niche, but you're making it sound like every song DT does can be classified as formulaic "prog metal". Because they don't have any straight forward shorter metal songs, or acoustic ballads, or anything of the sort, right? 

I've met people who don't even know what prog metal is, they certainly aren't fans of metal, but they adore Hollow Years and I Walk Beside You, because they like good melodies, and aren't averse to rock in general. They probably wouldn't like The Dark Eternal Night, or Honor Thy Father, though. DT has all types of songs, some of which can't be classified as prog, OR metal.

[Nearmyth]

Some people just don't like how they sound, or their music just doesn't do anything for them. I think pop-punk is one of the most boring, overdone genres, yet people my age and even older basically worship it to death. Isn't really any better way to explain it, some people just don't like certain things.

[bl5150]

I think it would very much depend on what you chose to play someone.  Other than Queensryche I cannot think of another band aside from DT that has produced so much music I adore and yet so much I dislike.

Images and Words is close enough to my favourite album of all time and yet if my first exposure to DT had've been Train of Thought or SC I likely wouldn't have bothered to dig much deeper , despite my admiration for the musicianship on display. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Some people just don't like how they sound, or their music just doesn't do anything for them. I think pop-punk is one of the most boring, overdone genres, yet people my age and even older basically worship it to death. Isn't really any better way to explain it, some people just don't like certain things.

Okay, well, take even genres like pop-punk. I mean, personally, I really don't like Green Day or their style one bit. But I did enjoy their song Time Of Your Life before it got overplayed. Why? Because it's not a pop-punk song. It's an acoustic ballad. Just because a certain band gets labeled as a certain kind of music, doesn't mean that every song they make will necessarily fit into that genre.

With Dream Theater, they've explored many different genres, sounds and styles throughout their career. It's half the reason so many of their fans have contrary opinions, and there's so much debating happening on these forums.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I always laugh at the statement of "they need to listen to at least 5 songs before they can dislike it!"
How much caviar does one need to eat to know that you don't like salty fish eggs? Exactly, one helping.
DT is a pretty self-consistent band. I can fully believe a person can decide after one song that they won't like the rest.

Unless the only song they hear is Vacant or SDV.

I mostly agree, but it is true that DT (and I guess a lot of progressive music in general?) is the kind of thing that grows on you. I know I didn't really care for DT when I first heard them.

But obviously that may not be true for everyone.

[Riitasointi]

Correct me if I'm wrong but most people who listen to prog-metal are more of these... "active listeners" of music. I mean, if you're really into delving deep into the music, digesting all it's aspects and also really immersing yourself into it, you'll probably like prog-metal and DT as well. Prog-metal is also for people who seek abnormal/divergent aspects and compositions in their music. For example, I get huge kicks over a guitar riff that's somehow twisty/complex/goes in a weird time signature etc. while for many people that does absolutely nothing. For me it sounds really cool and interesting, but they prefer more... I guess accessible, more ordinary (and to me more uninteresting) stuff. And that's how it goes. I'm definitely not saying prog-metal is the only genre of music that these "active listeners" are digging tho. But most people are not these active ones.

[hefdaddy42]

Correct me if I'm wrong but most people who listen to prog-metal are more of these... "active listeners" of music. I mean, if you're really into delving deep into the music, digesting all it's aspects and also really immersing yourself into it, you'll probably like prog-metal and DT as well. Prog-metal is also for people who seek abnormal/divergent aspects and compositions in their music. For example, I get huge kicks over a guitar riff that's somehow twisty/complex/goes in a weird time signature etc. while for many people that does absolutely nothing. For me it sounds really cool and interesting, but they prefer more... I guess accessible, more ordinary (and to me more uninteresting) stuff. And that's how it goes. I'm definitely not saying prog-metal is the only genre of music that these "active listeners" are digging tho. But most people are not these active ones.

Lot of truth here.  One reason most people won't like DT (or anything like DT).

[Jaq]

I can't stand proper punk. They always seem to have horrendously recorded albums.

As others have mentioned, that is indeed the point of the albums. One should also point that DT aren't exactly the zenith of recording either. DT12 is brickwalled and has really artificial sounding drums. I could not hold it against somebody if they said "I'd rather have a shoddy recording where I know it's them, versus a piecemealed, overdubbed and compressed artificial entity."

Would someone say the last part of that sentence anywhere other than an internet forum? 

[TAC]

Yea, opinions and stu---WHY DID YOU START WITH CAUGHT IN A WEB?!

Seriously, so many better starter songs to choose from.

That is what I thought. Possibly the worst song on Awake.

[Nearmyth]

Okay, well, take even genres like pop-punk. I mean, personally, I really don't like Green Day or their style one bit. But I did enjoy their song Time Of Your Life before it got overplayed. Why? Because it's not a pop-punk song. It's an acoustic ballad. Just because a certain band gets labeled as a certain kind of music, doesn't mean that every song they make will necessarily fit into that genre.

With Dream Theater, they've explored many different genres, sounds and styles throughout their career. It's half the reason so many of their fans have contrary opinions, and there's so much debating happening on these forums.

Using an entire genre wasn't a very good example on my part, I was just giving the example that what some people love to death others could dislike. Of course a pop-punk fan could like one band of the genre but dislike another. And someone who doesn't like pop-punk could easily like a song here or there, like how someone who isn't into DT could like a few of their songs. It also isn't very accurate to say "Dream Theater has done almost every genre, so everyone should like them!" It's like I was saying where a fan of a genre could like one band but dislike another band from that genre. I love DT but I'm not huge into, say, Haken. Albeit, it's hard to find someone who does prefer it the other way around, but that's not the point.

In the end it just depends on the band itself. I kinda think this topic runs itself in circles because it just comes down to opinion. One can easily appreciate the skill and prowess of songwriting in music, more specifically in Dream Theater, but it takes a lot more than initial appreciation for a band to "stick," even if there's more controversy and discussion than there is around your average pop artist. Some people won't be into it and that's just how the world 

But on the title of the actual thread, thinking something is "bad" and not liking it are two different things. If someone just comes out and says "DT is bad" without giving much reason then I would say they're just being close-minded. Like, come on.. Even DT's lowest lows are still pretty good.