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[hefdaddy42]

ITT we learn not to disrespect Mike Patton

Come on. 

Who the fuck does he think he is, Egypt?

DO NOT

[bosk1]

James had a ton of talent that I believe put him on a level with the musicianship in the band. I have never felt that Mike Patton was on that level.

Kinda hard to quantify, for me.  It's kinda like comparing, say, Steve Vai to John Petrucci.  Both phenominal players, both virtuosos, but very different styles that are difficult to compare. 

(there are probably MUCH better examples out there, but that is the first I could think of)

[rumborak]

But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.

I think it's convenient to revise history by mapping the *new* post-ADTOE band dynamics all the way back through the history of the band. Before MP quit, like it or not, James was being flown in when the whole music was written and recorded, and he would lay down the vocal lines he was told. He barely gave any band interviews, and even live, the moment he had nothing to sing, he disappeared off stage.
I can see your argument about the *new* DT, but with old DT, James was indeed a permanent hired gun, or at least treated that way. Case in point, MP threatened to kick him out unless he got his shit together (according to Lifting Shadows). You don't just single-handedly kick out a fully equal band member. Clearly JLB was viewed and treated as a second-tier band member.

[cramx3]

But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.

I think it's convenient to revise history by mapping the *new* post-ADTOE band dynamics all the way back through the history of the band. Before MP quit, like it or not, James was being flown in when the whole music was written and recorded, and he would lay down the vocal lines he was told. He barely gave any band interviews, and even live, the moment he had nothing to sing, he disappeared off stage.
I can see your argument about the *new* DT, but with old DT, James was indeed a permanent hired gun, or at least treated that way. Case in point, MP threatened to kick him out unless he got his shit together (according to Lifting Shadows). You don't just single-handedly kick out a fully equal band member. Clearly JLB was viewed and treated as a second-tier band member.

I didnt get that far in the book before I lost it (im so damned pissed about that) but what did the rest of the band think?  We all know the MP and JLB relationship wasnt the greatest and maybe a lot can be put onto that in terms of being treated like a hired gun?

[bosk1]

But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.

I think it's convenient to revise history by mapping the *new* post-ADTOE band dynamics all the way back through the history of the band. Before MP quit, like it or not, James was being flown in when the whole music was written and recorded, and he would lay down the vocal lines he was told. He barely gave any band interviews, and even live, the moment he had nothing to sing, he disappeared off stage.
I can see your argument about the *new* DT, but with old DT, James was indeed a permanent hired gun, or at least treated that way. Case in point, MP threatened to kick him out unless he got his shit together (according to Lifting Shadows). You don't just single-handedly kick out a fully equal band member. Clearly JLB was viewed and treated as a second-tier band member.

There is certainly an element of truth in what you are saying, and it is an element that a lot of fans overlook or are not aware of.  I am paraphrasing and do not recall the exact wording, but when Charlie was brought in, they told him that basically his job was mostly just to handle the vocal department (apparently, just singing and writing some vocal melodies and lyrics), and the rest of the band handled the music side.  When James was eventually brought in, he was given a similar, but somewhat watered-down version of that same message.  That is true.  But beyond that, you are way oversimplifying to the point where your main point is not really accurate (not to mention some specific factual inaccuracies in what you posted). 

Things changed with respect to James throughout his time in the band.  His role and his public presence varied considerably, and I would not say it was ever really a constant.  During the late I&W and early Awake period, he was giving a LOT of interviews and acting as the public face of the band.  And his presence in studio also varied considerably.  Remember that when he was given the "ultimatum" in the Six Degrees period, it was something the band had decided, and was actually based on two things:  (1) they felt he had stopped trying to work on keeping his vocals sharp, and (2) they wanted him to be present and participate in the studio.

Look, I get what you are saying.  And like I said, there is an element of it that is dead on that a lot of people overlook.  But you are extrapolating way too much that is not accurate.

[James Mypetgiress]

But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.

I think it's convenient to revise history by mapping the *new* post-ADTOE band dynamics all the way back through the history of the band. Before MP quit, like it or not, James was being flown in when the whole music was written and recorded, and he would lay down the vocal lines he was told. He barely gave any band interviews, and even live, the moment he had nothing to sing, he disappeared off stage.
I can see your argument about the *new* DT, but with old DT, James was indeed a permanent hired gun, or at least treated that way. Case in point, MP threatened to kick him out unless he got his shit together (according to Lifting Shadows). You don't just single-handedly kick out a fully equal band member. Clearly JLB was viewed and treated as a second-tier band member.

Remember that when he was given the "ultimatum" in the Six Degrees period, it was something the band had decided, and was actually based on two things:  (1) they felt he had stopped trying to work on keeping his vocals sharp, and (2) they wanted him to be present and participate in the studio.

Look, I get what you are saying.  And like I said, there is an element of it that is dead on that a lot of people overlook.  But you are extrapolating way too much that is not accurate.

I haven't heard this before, please, if you have the time, would you mind sorta... telling me what this "ultimatum" was and why they were going to kick him out 

[TAC]

I remember connecting the dots through the time period and gave my theory on the MP/JLB thing to someone close to the band and they said to wait till the book.

It was clear just following the band I thought that there was friction.

Relationships grow and regress over time and that obviously happened in DT. not sure if how James was treated had anything to do with HIM per se. It's just I think the band has an idea of where they want their music to go. I think it wouldn't have mattered who their singer was. It probably wasn't going to be any different.

[bosk1]

But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.

I think it's convenient to revise history by mapping the *new* post-ADTOE band dynamics all the way back through the history of the band. Before MP quit, like it or not, James was being flown in when the whole music was written and recorded, and he would lay down the vocal lines he was told. He barely gave any band interviews, and even live, the moment he had nothing to sing, he disappeared off stage.
I can see your argument about the *new* DT, but with old DT, James was indeed a permanent hired gun, or at least treated that way. Case in point, MP threatened to kick him out unless he got his shit together (according to Lifting Shadows). You don't just single-handedly kick out a fully equal band member. Clearly JLB was viewed and treated as a second-tier band member.

Remember that when he was given the "ultimatum" in the Six Degrees period, it was something the band had decided, and was actually based on two things:  (1) they felt he had stopped trying to work on keeping his vocals sharp, and (2) they wanted him to be present and participate in the studio.

Look, I get what you are saying.  And like I said, there is an element of it that is dead on that a lot of people overlook.  But you are extrapolating way too much that is not accurate.

I haven't heard this before, please, if you have the time, would you mind sorta... telling me what this "ultimatum" was and why they were going to kick him out 

Nothing complicated, at least as it is recorded in the book.  It was basically "shape up or ship out," meaning that they wanted him to work on his singing and to be present and participate in the studio.

[chaossystem]

Getting back to the original topic:

I agree with anyone who says that releasing a song like "Another Day" or "Surrounded" as their first single might have caused the record company people to say something like "do more songs like that!"
Which in turn MIGHT have caused the band to cave to that kind of pressure, which would have SUCKED for a multitude of reasons. It might even have killed their career.

On the OTHER hand, a lot of bands didn't have a major hit until their fourth or fifth album. Such as Kansas with "Carry On wayward Son" (4th album) Yes with "Roundabout" (4th album) Metallica with "Enter Sandman" (5th album), and many others.
The point being that I think it's possible that they could have done like I said earlier, and started releasing singles starting with "Dream and Day," and even if "Pull Me Under" was something like their 4th or 5th single, it STILL might have had the same impact that it did. It's also possible that some of the later songs could have done the same, or have been even bigger hits.
But as has already been stated many times, a lot of that was the fault of the record company executives, promoters, radio station people, and not the band itself.

[Mosh]

But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.

I think it's convenient to revise history by mapping the *new* post-ADTOE band dynamics all the way back through the history of the band. Before MP quit, like it or not, James was being flown in when the whole music was written and recorded, and he would lay down the vocal lines he was told. He barely gave any band interviews, and even live, the moment he had nothing to sing, he disappeared off stage.
I can see your argument about the *new* DT, but with old DT, James was indeed a permanent hired gun, or at least treated that way. Case in point, MP threatened to kick him out unless he got his shit together (according to Lifting Shadows). You don't just single-handedly kick out a fully equal band member. Clearly JLB was viewed and treated as a second-tier band member.

There is certainly an element of truth in what you are saying, and it is an element that a lot of fans overlook or are not aware of.  I am paraphrasing and do not recall the exact wording, but when Charlie was brought in, they told him that basically his job was mostly just to handle the vocal department (apparently, just singing and writing some vocal melodies and lyrics), and the rest of the band handled the music side.  When James was eventually brought in, he was given a similar, but somewhat watered-down version of that same message.  That is true.  But beyond that, you are way oversimplifying to the point where your main point is not really accurate (not to mention some specific factual inaccuracies in what you posted). 

Things changed with respect to James throughout his time in the band.  His role and his public presence varied considerably, and I would not say it was ever really a constant.  During the late I&W and early Awake period, he was giving a LOT of interviews and acting as the public face of the band.  And his presence in studio also varied considerably.  Remember that when he was given the "ultimatum" in the Six Degrees period, it was something the band had decided, and was actually based on two things:  (1) they felt he had stopped trying to work on keeping his vocals sharp, and (2) they wanted him to be present and participate in the studio.

Look, I get what you are saying.  And like I said, there is an element of it that is dead on that a lot of people overlook.  But you are extrapolating way too much that is not accurate.

There was definitely a shift with the ultimatum, but even still, JLB's role seemed pretty second tier compared to the others. I think it's especially apparent now that we're seeing him really act as the face of the band with the last two albums. He has the confidence and charisma of a true frontman in the interviews and he has a much more commanding stage presence than he did even 4 years ago when I saw them open for Maiden. Only now do I see him on the same level as the other members and not a second tier member like before.

[chaossystem]

I think M. Portnoy had a lot to do with what you guys are talking about. If you watch the documentaries that come with the concert DVDs, you'll notice that John P. would actually INCLUDE James in going over the arrangements for some of the songs that they are about to perform, while Portnoy seemed to have a more DISMISSIVE attitude towards James's role in the presentation of the song.

Also if you watch the "making of" DVD that comes with "Systematic Chaos" Portnoy seems to be the only one trying to "fine tune" every sound that comes out of James while he's recording his vocals.

[rumborak]

Bosk, while I certainly do agree that relationships evolved and changed over time, I think James never approached "full membership" status up until ADTOE. Definitely from the time on where MP asserted himself as the band leader, was James pushed aside and relegated to the second-tier status.
And I'm very happy that James is now doing a lot of interviews. MP's interviews were (and to this day are) kinda grating to me.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't think JLB was any less than a full member, I thought his involvement, or lack thereof, was mostly by choice. There's only so much he could have contributed to the bulk of the writing process, because aside from the tambourine, he doesn't really play an instrument. Like the rest of the band, he's stepped up since MP's departure because it was necessary.

[TAC]

I said the day MP left, James would be the biggest beneficiary.

[ytserush]

Getting back to the original topic:

I agree with anyone who says that releasing a song like "Another Day" or "Surrounded" as their first single might have caused the record company people to say something like "do more songs like that!"
Which in turn MIGHT have caused the band to cave to that kind of pressure, which would have SUCKED for a multitude of reasons. It might even have killed their career.

On the OTHER hand, a lot of bands didn't have a major hit until their fourth or fifth album. Such as Kansas with "Carry On wayward Son" (4th album) Yes with "Roundabout" (4th album) Metallica with "Enter Sandman" (5th album), and many others.
The point being that I think it's possible that they could have done like I said earlier, and started releasing singles starting with "Dream and Day," and even if "Pull Me Under" was something like their 4th or 5th single, it STILL might have had the same impact that it did. It's also possible that some of the later songs could have done the same, or have been even bigger hits.
But as has already been stated many times, a lot of that was the fault of the record company executives, promoters, radio station people, and not the band itself.

In 1993 both Dream Theater and Stone Temple Pilots (both on Warner-Elektra-Atlantic) were both doing the slow climb up the Billboard album chart.  At a certain point (somewhere in the middle I forget exactly where) Stone Temple Pilots reached critical mass and climbed higher faster while Dream Theater did the slow slide back into obscurity. That tells me the record label chose to back one band and not the other. This was also around the time that "Another Day" was released as a single.  Radio airplay still meant a little something back then and that song was made for radio and how it became ignored is a mystery. Maybe in the long run it was better that it was, but that song should have exploded at radio.

[rumborak]

That theory seems to forget that DT was playing in an essentially dying genre, whereas STP was part of the new and exciting grunge genre.

[BlobVanDam]

Record labels cock blocked any subgenre of rock that wasn't grunge at that time, and prog especially would never have gotten a push, especially if they were judging by the style of IaW. Personally I think DT still relatively did very well with Awake, all things considered with the changes in the music business at the time.