Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi  (Read 28826 times)

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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #945 on: December 15, 2018, 05:11:26 AM »
Just to be sure .... for those that didn't already know, take note of who made that vid.

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Offline Darkstarshades

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #946 on: December 22, 2018, 02:24:52 AM »
Does anybody here know or can share what were the fan theories about the clone wars, or about Anakin's reasons to go evil, or Palpatine's rise to power BEFORE The Phantom Menace, and thus, the prequel trilogy, was released?

Whad did you believe? what was the "consensus"?
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #947 on: December 22, 2018, 11:05:09 AM »
My personal theory, which was mostly in line with what my friends thought, was that The Clone Wars were what somehow led to the fall of The Republic and the rise of The Empire.  Since it was The Clone Wars (emphasis on plural), perhaps it was something like World War I and World War II.  An ongoing period of hostility and volatility that had multiple flashpoints, and eventually fractured The Republic and allowed The Empire to rise to power by providing stability, gathering and uniting dissatisfied factions and independents.  Unlike the World Wars on our planet, however, the result was more like if Nazi Germany had won.  The Empire did indeed unite most of the surviving powers, but as it is generally believed Nazi Germany would have done, it was an oppressive leadership, not a benevolent one.

I remember thinking that Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker were buddies, basically equals, not in a mentor/mentee relationship.  They flew missions together in The Clone Wars, whatever that meant, and time and time again, Anakin Skywalker showed how he was the greatest pilot ever.  Obi-Wan grieved the loss of his friend to the Dark Side, which is true either way, but in my mind it was more like a guy you've known and hung out with since school days falling in with a bad crowd and becoming a felon, not a former student going bad.

Offline Polarbear

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #948 on: December 23, 2018, 02:34:04 AM »
One thing I really liked about "The Clone Wars" animated show, is the way they expanded the friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan.

If you watch only Episodes 2 and 3, you get the idea that while they are master and apprentice and have respect for each other, they also have a lot of disdain for each other on both sides. That one episode arc where Obi-Wan fakes he's death to go undercover as a bounty hunter, shows how much he meant for Anakin and how far he was willing to go to avenge he's "death".

They were brothers, and I didn't really get that from AOTC and ROTS.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #949 on: December 23, 2018, 02:56:13 AM »
My personal theory, which was mostly in line with what my friends thought, was that The Clone Wars were what somehow led to the fall of The Republic and the rise of The Empire.  Since it was The Clone Wars (emphasis on plural), perhaps it was something like World War I and World War II.  An ongoing period of hostility and volatility that had multiple flashpoints, and eventually fractured The Republic and allowed The Empire to rise to power by providing stability, gathering and uniting dissatisfied factions and independents.  Unlike the World Wars on our planet, however, the result was more like if Nazi Germany had won.  The Empire did indeed unite most of the surviving powers, but as it is generally believed Nazi Germany would have done, it was an oppressive leadership, not a benevolent one.

I remember thinking that Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker were buddies, basically equals, not in a mentor/mentee relationship.  They flew missions together in The Clone Wars, whatever that meant, and time and time again, Anakin Skywalker showed how he was the greatest pilot ever.  Obi-Wan grieved the loss of his friend to the Dark Side, which is true either way, but in my mind it was more like a guy you've known and hung out with since school days falling in with a bad crowd and becoming a felon, not a former student going bad.

That would have been reasonable.

Sadly, they went for a story that didn't really match up. What's the first thing that Darth Vader told Obi Wan after not seeing him for 20 years? "When I left you I was but an apprentice, now I am the master".

Dude. HE left YOU. For dead. To burn away near a river of lava with your limbs chopped off.

I mean, you see Revenge of the Sith and then A New Hope, and it just doesn't feel like a proper continuation from where they left off. That sentence of A New Hope fits better with your scenario than what actually happened.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #950 on: December 23, 2018, 06:50:43 AM »
I forgot about the "I was an apprentice, now I am the master" line.  Did Obi-Wan, in relating the story to Luke, ever mention being Anakin's "master"?  Maybe the image I got in my head of Anakin and Obi-Wan being war buddies got stuck and was never revised when I heard that Anakin was actually his apprentice.

The main thing I remember is that we all had our fan theories, and when the prequels came out, we were very excited to see how they played out, how close we were, and George seemed to intentionally want to give us some surprises, which is fine, but they were to the point where they actually contradicted what was said in the original trilogy... "from a certain point of view".

Offline RuRoRul

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #951 on: December 23, 2018, 07:50:32 AM »
L: No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.
O: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.
L: You fought in the Clone Wars?
O: Yes. I was once a Jedi knight, the same as your father.
L: I wish I'd known him.
O: He was the best starpilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend.
Which reminds me, I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn-fool idealistic crusade like your father did.

L: How did my father die?
O: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father.


Darth Vader: A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master.

Darth Vader: Iíve been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the Master.

That Darth Vader was Obi-Wan's apprentice was always clear in the first film. It's probably fair to say that the perception of the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin more as "war buddies" rather than student and teacher comes across because of the obfuscation of "your father" and "Darth Vader" being spoken of differently (of course at the time it was filmed they might have been intended to be different people, I can't remember the history of when the twist was first conceived of). There's still enough in what Obi Wan said about Luke's father that it makes sense he was his apprentice (it's implied he "followed" Obi-Wan) but it definitely highlighted the camaraderie between equals rather than the student-teacher relationship (Obi-Wan says he was a Jedi knight "the same as your father", and he was a "good friend").
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 07:56:05 AM by RuRoRul »

Offline ZirconBlue

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #952 on: December 23, 2018, 10:50:01 AM »
I think the issue is, that when those lines were written,  Anakin and Vader were 2 different people.

Offline Darkstarshades

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #953 on: December 23, 2018, 10:56:25 AM »
I think the issue is, that when those lines were written,  Anakin and Vader were 2 different people.

Absolutely this.
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Offline RuRoRul

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #954 on: December 23, 2018, 12:18:34 PM »
I get that (which was why I mentioned the intention when it was filmed was that they were treated as different people, even if looking back it's thankfully also consistent with the later twist with Obi-Wan just being evasive without directly lying by talking about Darth Vader and Anakin separately). Someone asked if it was ever mentioned Obi-Wan was Anakin's mentor, and those quotes are pretty much all references to both the Darth Vader-Obi-Wan and Anakin-Obi-Wan relationships in film one and basically give the answer: it was always explicit Obi-Wan was Darth Vader's mentor, but wasn't originally explicit that Obi-Wan was Luke's father's mentor with what's said definitely highlighting a camaraderie between them rather than mentor-student, but they thankfully don't contradict him Obi-Wan being Anakin's mentor either (the closest reference to it though is the idea of Anakin "following" Obi-Wan).
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 12:24:19 PM by RuRoRul »

Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #955 on: December 23, 2018, 09:35:37 PM »
So it's really a matter of Lucas very carefully dancing around the words, getting away with as much as he could, without directly contradicting what was said.  Anakin Skywalker was Obi-Wan's friend.  Darth Vader was Obi-Wan's student, and Darth Vader murdered Anakin Skywalker.

When Obi-Wan tells Luke that everything he said was true "from a certain point of view" it was Lucas telling us the audience the same thing.  No contradiction, just a careful choice of words; sorry if you jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Offline Grappler

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #956 on: December 29, 2018, 07:52:51 PM »
I finally saw Solo last night for the first time.  I see very few reasons to be critical of this movie - it's everything I want from a Han Solo "origin" story.  How does he become a smuggler?  How does he meet Chewie ( :heart), how does he meet Lando, how does he get the Falcon, what is the Kessel Run?  Darth Maul was really the only thing that I thought was just completely shoe-horned into the movie. 

Lando's droid was awesome, and I love that she had a great personality beyond the typical 3PO protocol droid, and was a female as well - I don't think there has been a lead droid in this universe that has been female yet.   Donald Glover was amazing as Lando - his first line just oozes with a Billy Dee Williams sound to his voice.  And I had no problem with Alden at all.

It's hard to not watch this movie and get a warm fuzzy feeling as Han interacts and develops a relationship with Chewie, knowing how they end up as life-long partners.  That's really the heart of his movie.

Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #957 on: January 02, 2019, 07:12:47 AM »
I finally saw Solo last night for the first time.  I see very few reasons to be critical of this movie - it's everything I want from a Han Solo "origin" story.  How does he become a smuggler?  How does he meet Chewie ( :heart), how does he meet Lando, how does he get the Falcon, what is the Kessel Run?  Darth Maul was really the only thing that I thought was just completely shoe-horned into the movie. 

Lando's droid was awesome, and I love that she had a great personality beyond the typical 3PO protocol droid, and was a female as well - I don't think there has been a lead droid in this universe that has been female yet.   Donald Glover was amazing as Lando - his first line just oozes with a Billy Dee Williams sound to his voice.  And I had no problem with Alden at all.

It's hard to not watch this movie and get a warm fuzzy feeling as Han interacts and develops a relationship with Chewie, knowing how they end up as life-long partners.  That's really the heart of his movie.

I think my opinion is in the same realm as yours. I enjoyed the movie. My sense is that people were more critical of the film than it deserved because they were still angry about The Last Jedi. Kind of the opposite situation to Rogue One, where people were probably a little more positive than they otherwise would have been because the franchise was riding high after Force Awakens. Again, that is just my subjective interpretation of the situation. Ultimately, Star Wars films are kind of impossible to judge. :lol
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